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Sun's Direct Role In Global Warming May Be Underestimated

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 04:53 PM
Original message
Sun's Direct Role In Global Warming May Be Underestimated
This article didn't lend itself to a short excerpt, I'd recommend reading the whole thing.

According to Scafetta, records of sunspot activity suggest that solar output has been rising slightly for about 100 years. However, only measurements of what is known as total solar irradiance gathered by satellites orbiting since 1978 are considered scientifically reliable, he said.

But observations over those years were flawed by the space shuttle Challenger disaster, which prevented the launching of a new solar output detecting satellite called ACRIM 2 to replace a previous one called ACRIM 1.

That resulted in a two-year data gap that scientists had to rely on other satellites to try to bridge. "But those data were not as precise as those from ACRIM 1 and ACRIM 2," Scafetta said in an interview.

Nevertheless, several research groups used the combined satellite data to conclude that that there was no increased heating from the Sun to contribute to the global surface warming observed between 1980 and 2002, the authors wrote in their paper.

But a 2003 study by a group headed by Columbia's Richard Willson, principal investigator of the ACRIM experiments, challenged the previous satellite interpretations of solar output. Willson and his colleagues concluded, rather that their analysis revealed a significant upward trend in average solar luminosity during the period.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051001100950.htm



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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. So the global warming we are seeing is a natural process?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. The short answer: some is, some isn't.
Figuring out which is which, and how they both interact, is an ongoing process.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. we're doomed, we're doomed
in a couple of hundred of million years or more...
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. It would seem the two scientific camps, CO2 versus Solar
as the primary cause of global warming, are converging.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I have heard..
and I think it is RW propaganda...that global warming could actually benefit world farming.

Anybody have an opinion on that? It isn't my area. Although frankly, if it gets much hotter here in FL I'm going back to NJ.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Ask Spain, Portugal and France how warming is working out...
for their agriculture :-)

Or the Chinese. Or the Australians.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm sorry to be so ignorant..
but are there major problems there? Drought?

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yes, all those nations are suffering severe droughts.
There's been recent postings in this forum about all of those countries. You could try the search, although for some reason it never works very well for me. But here's a couple:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x38229
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x38227
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thanks so much for the links
I haven't been able to DU much lately...been pretty sick.

I appreciate it.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Sorry to hear that - hope you feel better soon. nt
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Just the avian flu
hahahaha

nah, garden variety. But when you get a tad older, it seems to last longer. I am just now stopping the coughing from Dec. 26. I couldn't get anyone to give me a flu shot because I'm not high risk.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Do they think! The whole point is that the earth cannot
cool down when covered by a plastic bubble of greenhouse gasses, all the while the OZone layer - which protects - is depleted.

That is the whole point. We cannot take the sun. The beautiful systems that accepts some sun and not other types of sun is falling apart. Especially the part that allows the heat to escape the planet at the end of the day.

"Big Red" is just minding its own business. The point is we have to adjust our lives and growth to the realities out that that should not be "mythed" away.



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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Their point is, that there would be some warming regardless...
of greenhouse problems. Even if GHG levels were the same as 100 years ago, we would be a bit warmer, because the sun is producing a bit more energy than it was 100 years ago.

Certainly, rising GHG is making this worse, not better.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Exactly. This is the sun. We react to it. Our planet would find a way - as
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 06:08 PM by applegrove
it has for Billions of years. Now - the planet is no longer a living eco-sphere. It is an externality.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Isn't the solar oscillation stronger than the longterm gain?

IIRC there's a periodic oscillation in output riding on top of that gain, with a period of a decade or so. I was under the impression that any longterm gain was much smaller than the amplitude of that oscillation. We're now approaching the lower end of that oscillation and -- well lets just say hearing thunder in January is not to me very concerting.

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. They took steps to account for the 11 and 22 year cycles.
It's in the article somewhere.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I think this paper would change that interpretation
Since previous studies had concluded we didn't have a long term gain in solar irradience. And now they claim more accurate data over a longer time frame shows there is.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Bell Labs did a study on this about ten years ago - maybe a bit longer
They surveyed Arctic temperatures over a period of (I think) about 20 years.

They suspected that solar forcing was behind the rapid Arctic warming already then noted. Given that, they expected to see the amplitude of the cycle between summer temperatures (sunlight 24 hours a day or nearly so) and winter temperatures (darkness 24 hours a day or nearly so) increase.

Instead, the amplitude flattened, meaning that whatever was going on was not related to solar forcings.

I'm sorry I don't have the references right with me, but I will try and dig them up later tonight.

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Is there any data out there showing a correlation in sunspot activity

say, over the last 50 years and the rise in the mean global temperature? This should be compared to the correlation for CO2 concentration and global mean temperature.

Of course, as snow and ice melt in the polar regions, more heating is achieved through less reflection of solar energy. This has definitely been accelerating in the 80's and 90's.
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