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poopfuel Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 12:34 PM
Original message
Ethanol naysayers losing ground
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060126194250.htm

Ethanol Can Replace Gasoline With Big Energy Savings, Comparable Impact On Greenhouse Gases

Putting ethanol instead of gasoline in your tank saves oil and is probably no worse for the environment than burning gasoline, according to a new analysis by researchers at the University of California, Berkeley.

The researchers note, however, that new technologies now in development promise to make ethanol a truly "green" fuel with significantly less environmental impact than gasoline.

The analysis, appearing in this week's issue of Science, attempts to settle the ongoing debate over whether ethanol is a good substitute for gasoline and thus can help lessen the country's reliance on foreign oil and support farmers in the bargain. The UC Berkeley study weighs these arguments against other studies claiming that it takes more energy to grow the corn to make ethanol than we get out of ethanol when we burn it.

Dan Kammen and Alex Farrell of the Energy and Resources Group at UC Berkeley, with their students Rich Plevin, Brian Turner and Andy Jones along with Michael O'Hare, a professor in the Goldman School of Public Policy, deconstructed six separate high-profile studies of ethanol. They assessed the studies' assumptions and then reanalyzed each after correcting errors, inconsistencies and outdated information regarding the amount of energy used to grow corn and make ethanol, and the energy output in the form of fuel and corn byproducts.

Once these changes were made in the six studies, each yielded the same conclusion about energy: Producing ethanol from corn uses much less petroleum than producing gasoline. However, the UC Berkeley researchers point out that there is still great uncertainty about greenhouse gas emissions and that other environmental effects like soil erosion are not yet quantified.

The UC Berkeley team has made its model, the Energy and Resources Group Biofuels Meta Model (EBAMM), available to the public on its Web site: http:/?/?rael.berkeley.edu/?~EBAMM">.

"It is better to use various inputs to grow corn and make ethanol and use that in your cars than it is to use the gasoline and fossil fuels directly," said Kammen, who is co-director of the Berkeley Institute of the Environment and UC Berkeley's Class of 1935 Distinguished Chair of Energy.

Despite the uncertainty, it appears that ethanol made from corn is a little better - maybe 10 or 15 percent - than gasoline in terms of greenhouse gas production, he said.

"The people who are saying ethanol is bad are just plain wrong," he said. "But it isn't a huge victory - you wouldn't go out and rebuild our economy around corn-based ethanol."

The transition would be worth it, the authors point out, if the ethanol is produced not from corn but from woody, fibrous plants: cellulose.

"Ethanol can be, if it's made the right way with cellulosic technology, a really good fuel for the United States," said Farrell, an assistant professor of energy and resources. "At the moment, cellulosic technology is just too expensive. If that changes - and the technology is developing rapidly - then we might see cellulosic technology enter the commercial market within five years."

Cellulosic technology refers to the use of bacteria to convert the hard, fibrous content of plants - cellulose and lignin - into starches that can be fermented by other bacteria to produce ethanol. Farrell said that two good sources of fibrous plant material are switchgrass and willow trees, though any material, from farm waste to specially grown crops or trees, would work. One estimate is that there are a billion tons of currently unused waste available for ethanol production in the United States.

"There is a lot for potential for this technology to really help meet national energy goals," he said. "However, there are still unknowns associated with the long-term sustainability of ethanol as a fuel, especially at the global scale. Making smart land use choices will be key."

Farrell, Kammen and their colleagues will publish their study in the Jan. 27 issue of Science. In addition, Kammen will discuss the report on Jan. 26 at 11 a.m. EST at the 6th National Conference on Science, Policy and the Environment, which is being held at the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center in Washington, D.C. Farrell also will discuss the study at a 4 p.m. seminar on Feb. 3 at UC Berkeley's Institute of Transportation Studies.

In 2004, ethanol blended into gasoline comprised only 2 percent of all fuel sold in the United States. But auto manufacturers are able to make cars that run on 85 percent ethanol, and nearly 5 million such "flex-fuel" vehicles are now on the road. Kammen noted that almost all light trucks now sold have flex-fuel capability, though frequently unadvertised. Converting a car into a flex-fuel vehicle able to burn E85, as the 85/15 ethanol/gas mix is called, costs about $100. More flex-fuel vehicles than diesel vehicles are on the road today in California.

"Converting to fuel ethanol will not require a big change in the economy. We are already ethanol-ready. If ethanol were available on the supply side, the demand is there," Kammen said.

Californians may be voting this November on a state proposition requiring that all new cars sold in California be flex-fuel ready. Kammen said that once this happens, California is poised to move toward the situation in Brazil, where many cars burn pure ethanol and ethanol made from sugar cane supplies half the fuel needs for cars and trucks.

Knowledgeable venture capitalists already are putting money behind ethanol and cellulosic technology, as witnessed by recent investments by Microsoft Corp. chairman Bill Gates and strong interest by Sun Microsystems co-founder Vinod Khosla.

"The investment by Gates is an example of the excitement and seriousness the venture capital community sees in cellulosic technology, which they see as now ready to go prime time," he said. "Our assessment in the paper is that it is a very strong winner and that the effort needed to go the last 10 percent of the way to get cellulosic on board is actually very small."

Kammen estimates that ethanol could replace 20 to 30 percent of fuel usage in this country with little effort in just a few years. In the long term, the United States may be able to match Sweden, which recently committed to an oil-free future based on ethanol from forests and solar energy. Kammen last year published a paper, also in Science, arguing that even Africa could exploit its biomass to build a biofuel industry that could meet energy needs for the poor and develop a sustainable local fuel supply, a future much better than using fossil fuels.

The goal of the UC Berkeley analysis was to understand how six studies of fuel ethanol could come to such different conclusions about the overall energy balance in its production and use. Farrell, Kammen and their UC Berkeley colleagues dissected each study and recreated its analysis in a spreadsheet where they could be compared side-by-side. The team said it found numerous "errors, inconsistencies and omissions" among the studies, such as not considering the value of co-products of ethanol production - dried distillers grains, corn gluten feed and corn oil - that boost the net energy gain from ethanol production. Other studies overestimated the energy used by farm machinery.

On the other side, some studies ignored the use of crushed limestone on corn fields, which can be a significant energy input because of the need to pulverize the rock. Farrell noted that some numbers needed for the analysis, such as the amount of limestone applied, are just not known reliably. On the other hand, some of the studies used outdated data when more recent numbers were available, making ethanol look worse.

"The assumptions made by some of the authors were not based on the best data, or were just a little bit too convenient, and had a strong impact on the results," Kammen said.

Farrell, Kammen and their colleagues considered not only the energy balance of corn ethanol production, but also the effect on the environment through production of greenhouse gases. While corn ethanol came out marginally better than gasoline in terms of greenhouse gas production, Farrell noted that corn production has other negative environmental impacts associated with fertilizer, pesticide and herbicide use. These need to be taken into account when considering the balance between corn ethanol and gasoline, though emerging cellulosic technologies using waste would push the equation more toward ethanol.

"Two things are going to push the commercialization of cellulosic technology," Farrell said. "One is driving the cost down, which is mainly research and development; the other is that environmental concerns are increasingly entering into commercial calculations about biofuels."

The work was supported by the Energy Foundation, the National Science Foundation's Climate Decision Making Center at Carnegie Mellon University and the Karsten Family Foundation.



LET ME JUST REITERATE ABOUT THIS: "fertilizer, pesticide and herbicide use"- DON'T NEED "EM! BAN 'EM. USING DDG's- mash remains from the fuel making process- as fertilizer acts as a pre-emergent herbicide. Use the rest as animal feed, better quality feed. Solve the pesticide problem by rotating crops, using polyculture, o rganic, heck even "sustainable farming" has been shown to be more productive anyway.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-01/acs-sfp012306.php

More good ethanol press found here:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/06/8367959/index.htm
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Working link to the EBAMM:
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. It could enter the market... in 5 years :-)
(sorry, couldn't help myself)

The moral of this story seems to be that cellulose-based ethanol is the bottleneck to work on.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. ...
;-)

I can't wait. Couldn't we just make it 4 years this time?

Current ethanol production accounts for about 28 hours of US energy consumption a year.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-29-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION HERE
Edited on Sun Jan-29-06 04:24 PM by JohnWxy
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION HERE - WERE TALKING ABOUT ENERGY CONSUMED FOR TRANSPORTATION - SPECIFICALLY CARS AND TRUCKS.

Referring to the original thread post

"In 2004, ethanol blended into gasoline comprised only 2 percent of all fuel sold in the United States. But auto manufacturers are able to make cars that run on 85 percent ethanol, and nearly 5 million such "flex-fuel" vehicles are now on the road. Kammen noted that almost all light trucks now sold have flex-fuel capability, though frequently unadvertised. Converting a car into a flex-fuel vehicle able to burn E85, as the 85/15 ethanol/gas mix is called, costs about $100. More flex-fuel vehicles than diesel vehicles are on the road today in California.

"Converting to fuel ethanol will not require a big change in the economy. We are already ethanol-ready. If ethanol were available on the supply side, the demand is there," Kammen said."



I dont' know how many hybrid behicles have been sold but it cannot be a huge number. When you apply the percentage gain in gas consumption (in real life 10% -15% ?) to this small number now on the road - how much saved gas is that relative to the 2% figure of ethanol - 1/10,000th or 1/100,000th and hybrid vehicles cost you thousands of dollars extra to buy.

ANY ENGINE THAT OPERATES ON GAS CAN USE ETHANOL 15 (15% ETHANOL) AND YOU'RE NOT PAYING ANYTHING EXTRA FOR THE CAR YOU ALREADY OWN,,,RIGHT?

NOW if you run E15 in you car you are cutting your gas consumption by 15% for no extra cost!!!

FFV vehicles are being sold FOR NO EXTRA COST and they can run on E85. When using E85 you are cuttting your gas consumption by 85%. FOR NO EXTRA COST. (by the way E85 sells for about $2.10 a gallon. Compare that to $2.35 for mid grade and $2.55 for premium grade gas.

The lack of availability of Ethanol is no argument for not expanding the production and availability of it. But perhaps I state the obvious. IF we had a program to expand ethanol production (over the objections of Cheney's Energy Task Force) the ethanol production could be doubled in a few years. OR we could just do nothing and wait until most of us are driving hybrid vehicles (How long would that take 25 years - remember everybody doesn't go aout and buy a car every year) and each of us spending thousands EXTRA to buy them.

On availability of ethanol: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x40253
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benevolent dictator Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It would take a lot more than 25 years
for us all to be driving hybrids... unless they start making A LOT more of them. Part of the reason for the "waiting lists" they have is that they simply don't make that many hybrids. They cost a lot and the auto companies don't make that much profit from them.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. corn based ethanol now being produced works and has a better energy
return than gasoline www.ncga.com/public_policy/ PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf

Corn based ethanol can be ramped up in production volume fairly quickly and be giving us gains in reduced oil consumption right away. Corn based ethaoanol production currently represents about 1.5% of the transport fuel supply, and can be pushed up to 3 - 5% in a few years. Meanwhile we will be developing cellulosic sources and have production facilities to produce that already in place!
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. An article from The Oil Drum is less optimistic
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/3/7/03949/82426

There are a number of points about the potential and the realities of using cellulosic ethanol production.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why doesn't methanol get any press?
Edited on Fri Jan-27-06 01:19 PM by skids
It can be used in an IC engine, and also in PEM fuel cells. Plus there's been technology (pyrolysis) to make it from the same "woody cellulose" for ages. I don't doubt that wood-based ethanol could be made into an EROEI winner with modern technology -- I just wonder why methanol is hardly ever mentioned?

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It might be energy density.
Here's a blurb about pros and cons:

Methanol use in current-technology vehicles has some distinct advantages and disadvantages. On the plus side, methanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline. This reduces "knock" in today's engines and can result in greater fuel efficiency with proper adjustment of the engine's compression ratio. Methanol's high heat of vaporization results in lower peak flame temperatures than gasoline and lower nitrogen oxide emissions. Its greater tolerance to lean combustion higher air-to-fuel equivalence ratio results in generally lower overall emissions and higher energy efficiency. Dedicated-methanol-fuel vehicles would increase this advantage even further.

However, several disadvantages must be studied and overcome before neat methanol is considered a viable alternative to gasoline. Methanol's energy density is about half that of gasoline, reducing the range a vehicle can travel on an equivalent tank of fuel. Current-technology vehicles using neat methanol at temperatures below 45 degrees Fahrenheit are difficult to start because of methanol's lower vapor pressure and single boiling point. However, engineering solutions to these problems have been identified and are under development. For example, 85 percent methanol solves the cold start difficulties because of its 15 percent-gasoline component. The availability of 85 percent methanol is limited, but growing through a network of dozens of gasoline stations in the key, high-population areas of California.

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/clean/cf05.htm
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The big drawback to methanol is its toxicity and water solubility.
Edited on Fri Jan-27-06 02:34 PM by NNadir
Methanol fueled automobiles would represent an environmental catastrophe in my opinion. One interesting side effect of ingesting methanol, which is clear, colorless, and completely miscible with water, is blindness.

It is damn near impossible to remove methanol from water on an industrial scale.

I don't mind methanol as an intermediate in the production of dimethyl ether but it would be disasterous as a motor fuel.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. methanol is excellent fuel for transportation
and has a reasonable energy density
Every fuel has issues.

for example, gasoline is not for drinking

methanol can be mae from readily avaiable
solid fuel, in endless amounts,,, sooner or later,
China and India will figure out they can
make their own liquid fuel
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. The oil companies aren't interested in anything they can't control
the price of. Also, they know it can be a competing fuel (ethanol or methanol).

methanol and ethanol both have higher octane rating (105) to gasoline (high test + 92-93). This means you can run at higher compression. But you can achieve an 'effective' higher compression engine using super charging or turbo charging. Saab sells their 9-5 Biopower FFV which runs on any blend of ethanol and gasoline 10% - 85% even 100% ethanol). It uses computer controlled variable valve timing and turbo charging to take advantagae of the higher octatne in the ethanol. The result is it gets just as good as mileage on 85% ethanol as it does when running on strait gasoline!

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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Methanol also produces formaldehyde, a carcinogen, when burned.
Methanol has a lot of substantial disadvantages, as others have pointed out above. It's not any single factor, IMHO, just an accumulation of smaller ones.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-27-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Use Wind Or Co-Generation For Process Energy Input
Most studies indicate an EPR of 1 for corn ethanol from a energy standpoint, and 1.3 to 1.8 for corn ethanol once the value of coproducts are credited. Although the article does not specifically mention the reason, I suspect that the nearly neutral greenhouse gas benefit is due to fossil fuels being used for the required energy input.

Considering that 2/3rd’s of the energy consumed in corn ethanol production is in conversion (ethanol plant), this indicates opportunities for utilizing co-generation or renewables (wind) for most of this process energy. This is why I view corn ethanol more as a valuable energy carrier than an energy source. Process corn for ethanol using an energy input from renewable energy, renewable energy is converted to a valuable liquid fuel, with most of the food value of the corn remaining for consumption.

Refer to Table 6 of the following report for a breakdown of energy use for ethanol production.

The Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol: An Update / AER-813
United States Department of Agriculture - July 2002

http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-813.pdf

Just east of Ames, IA an ethanol processing plant is being built. In the brief for the project they advertised how the new plant will use the same coal supply delivered to the Ames, IA municipal electric plant 4 mi. to the west, thus resulting in savings. With co-generation, this plant could have been located such that waste heat from the coal fired electric plant could have been utilized by the ethanol process. In addition, the Ames power plant burns local garbage, therefore waste material from the ethanol process could be burned (resource recovered, as they call it).

Another alternate is wind. Most of the corn belt and the high plains (potential swithchgrass growing region) are reasonably close to areas that have good to excellent wind energy potential.

Corn ethanol is not a 'solution' to the coming energy crises. But I do think, under the scenario presented above, it is a viable mitigation option. Wind energy and corn ethanol are proven, scalable processes. We have the corn, we have the wind, why not marry the two as a mitigation option until cellulosic ethanol and other developmental energy options mature? To me, the above makes a lot more sense than pouring energy and money into developing tar sands.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-28-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Significant post. We need to repond quicky with what we have now
The real potential for ethanol is cellulosic ethanol, but until that is fully developed we can gain alot by expanding production of corn ethanol and we would be getting the infrasatructure in place to get cellulosic ethanol started from stronger (more economic) position. In additon to corn there is sugar beets and sugar cane as starch sources which are even more productive than corn.

OUr supply of oil is very precarious. We could see a disruption of supply of 5% to 10% quite easily in the next 5 yrs.. That's why we need an aggressive program to push ethanol production up as fast as possible. If we can get it up to 5% (even better 10% but that will take a bit longer) of the total gasoline demand that would provide us considerable insurance against an oil shock of 5% or a bit more. THis is what everyone is not considering. Events around the world are quite unstable and we are way too dependent on fossil fuel and paricularly imported fossil fuel. Last summer should have put people on notice that natural calamities themselves can significantly impact our oil supply and economy. Unfortunatly, last summer will in the next few years be shown to be not so unusual as when compared to the past weather (although, of course, there are those like MIchael Chrichton who would say I am confused and deluded!).

The advantage also to ethanol is the reduction of our huge negative trade balance. Every dollar spent on domestically produced ethanol instead of going out of the country strengthens our economy. ONe dollar spent in the country INSTEAD of going out of the country has about the net effect of two dollars (the dollar going out is a negative, the dollar spent here is a positive. The net effect on our economy is double or $2)

Wind power is another mostly unrecognized source of energy (although that is finally , this year, beginning to change). Wind power is not only cleaner than fossil fuel power, it's beginning to be recognized as being CHEAPER. The potential for wind power in the U.S. is vast.

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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. I was under the impression that Ethanol was *much* cleaner than gas,
not just *marginally* cleaner. I'm disappointed by that.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-30-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. 17% to 23% less GHGs unless you buy a Saab BioPower
Corn ethanol releases 17% to 23% less GHGs than gasoline on a per mile basis. If GM and Ford's FFVs usesd turbo charging to take advantage of the higher octane of ethanol (AS the SAAB 9-5 BjoPower does) then the comparison is: 21% to 29% better for corn ethanol. We're talking abuot Ethanol 85 (85%) ethanol here. The Saab Biopower used turbo charging to take advantage of the higer octane of ethanol. This enables it to get as good or better mileage on E85 as it does on gasoline (a FFV can use either gasoline or any blend of gasoline and ethanol).

Cellulosic ethanol produces 65% to 86% less GHGs than gasoline. Cellulosic ethanol is about 6 yrs away from being commercially available. The 85% figure is again, only if Detroit designs the engines to take advantage of the higher octane of ethanol (105 vs 92-93 for high test gas).


www.ncga.com/public_policy/PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf
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poopfuel Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-31-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. a talk I recommend everyone read
http://www.communitysolution.org/04conf/af1.html
Certainly of interest to you, JohnWxy!

Hopefully I won't need to post again, this sums up where we're at. The new book will be out in August, not thru New Society as mentioned in the interview.
No, I am not David Blume, in answer to the question.
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