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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 11:57 AM
Original message
Steam powered aircraft engine works!!!!
http://www.tinypower.com/airplane.htm

Can wood fired aircraft be far behind?

:eyes:

(The smiley is necessary, since there are lots of people who really, really, really believe in things like that. Why? Because they want to believe.)
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ecoalex Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. The true Temper handle plant in Saint Johnsbury Vt runs on it's wood waste
Coolest plant I ever saw was the handle plant using ash logs to make handles for all the treu Temper tools.In the 70's Mother Earth News ran a Chev pick up coast to coast on one cord of wood chunks. Gasification, and steam power is very real.Check Out http://home.earthlink.net/~dlaw70/12stmng.htm
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I know that these little steam engines are real. Tiny Power's been
in business for almost 60 years.

Their sister company makes steam powered launches like this one:



(If I were one of the trees in the background, and thank goodness I'm not, I'd start to sweat a bit.)

I wonder if someone in one of these companies could rig these engines to make wood fired chain saws?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. wood fired chain saws
oh, thank you... so very much... i really did need that chuckle today, friend

:hi:
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. .
;-)

As soon as one comes out, I'm buying it.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Mmmmm, black contrails!
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hpot Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. They should have used a Tesla turbine for better results
Edited on Thu Jul-13-06 01:03 PM by hpot
It is all about efficiency. If they used a Tesla turbine, a higher efficiency can be gained. The methods and apparatus for the propulsion of fluids and thermodynamic transformation of energy were also disclosed in his various patents.

Tesla claimed that a steam version of his device would achieve around 95 percent efficiency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_turbine

Edit: more info concerning horsepower:

“I have got more than that,” replied Dr. Tesla. “I have an engine that will give ten horse power to the pound of weight. That is twenty-five times as powerful as the lightest weight engine in use today. The lightest gas engine used on aeroplanes weighs two and one-half pounds to the horse power. With two and one-half pounds of weight I can develop twenty-five horse power.”

http://www.teslaengine.org/main.html
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That's very interesting.
I wonder as well why they didn't use this design. It couldn't have been fear of being sued for patent infringement, since Tesla's patent dates from 1913.

I will confess that I'm somewhat skeptical about steam powered aircraft though. Of course my skepticism if often regarded with jaunticed eyes. But I am, on the other hand, a skeptic who would be very thrilled to have been proved wrong. I'll tell you one thing. If someone builds a wood fired aircraft, it will generate lots of excited threads implying that all of our problems have been solved.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Tesla claimed a higher efficiency - has anyone ever achieved it?
From Wikipedia:

In Tesla's time, the efficiency of conventional turbines was low because the aerodynamic theory to proper blade design didn't exist and the engineering materials of the time put severe limitations on operating speeds and temperatures. The efficiency of a conventional turbine is related to the difference in temperature between the intake and the exhaust. This requires that the materials used to construct it be able to withstand very high temperatures for reasonable efficiency.
...
The turbine efficiency of the gas Tesla turbine is estimated to be above 60, reaching a maximum of 95 percent. Keep in mind that turbine efficiency is different to the cycle efficiency of the engine using the turbine. Axial turbines which operate today in steam plants or jet engines have efficiencies of about 80 - 95 %. This is different to the cycle efficiencies of the plant or engine which are between 30% and 40%, and are limited by any irreversibilities to be below the Carnot cycle efficiency. Tesla claimed that a steam version of his device would achieve around 95 percent efficiency.
...
"With proper use of the analytical results, the rotor efficiency using laminar flow can be very high, even above 95%. However, in order to attain high rotor efficiency, the flowrate number must be made small which means high rotor efficiency is achieved at the expense of using a large number of disks and hence a physically larger rotor."

Actual modern multiple stage bladed turbines typically reach 60% - 70% efficiency. Actual volute-rotor matched Tesla-type machines of reasonable size with common fluids (steam, gas, and water) would also be expected to be around this range (if not higher).


So it seems there would be a trade off between efficiency and weight anyway.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. Ever heard of a Cold War project project called NEPA?
Edited on Thu Jul-13-06 03:59 PM by depakid
It would have granted the SAC virttally unlimited range- and its proponents were convinced it would have worked.

There were several successful technology demonstrations, but to date, no nuclear powered aircraft has even flown.

http://www.megazone.org/ANP/tech.shtml

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Actually this program lead to the conceptualization of the molten salt
Edited on Thu Jul-13-06 05:55 PM by NNadir
reactor. This was probably one of the best reactor designs to have been explored in the first nuclear era. It may be one of the few reactors to be an improvement on the pressurized water reactor, and that's saying a lot, since pressurized water reactors have been quite a success.

Wikipedia covers this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

If humanity survives global climate change, this reactor type, albeit not used on aircraft, will surely be important. It is part of the Gen IV program. It is a disgrace really, that this type of reactor was abandoned.

I still believe that the main reason of the MSR abandonment was that, all the silliness about bombers and other aircraft aside, the MSR was totally unsuited for military use.

Of course, in those days, nobody knew about the wood fired aircraft engine. Now we do. Sssshhh. Don't tell the Air Force.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Perhaps a fine power source for one of these babies:


Why use wood when you could use coal?


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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Consider me sold. n/t.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Interestingly, Boeing may be working on one
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2002/september/i_pw.html

Might be a bit longer lived than the CSMs. I'm guessing someone at the Pentagon saw the specs for the 903 lun (300kts, 20m off the surface, 6xSunburm missiles) and had an underwear emergency :D.
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hpot Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. If we can extract enough electricity from cold fusion ...
Nuclear fusion on the desktop ... really! - Science - MSNBC.com
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7654627/

We would be using this type of craft instead...

Lifter Project
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm

Do you still want to use coal?
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. I do, I do, I do, believe in wood-fired aircraft
And if YOU don't believe, they're all going to crash.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
15. Not Steam, but Stirling powered aircraft?
The Quiet Revolution Motor Company appears to have gone 'silent', but Daryl Philips envisioned replacing noisy general aviation engines with quiet stirling power: "Why Aviation Needs the Stirling Engine"
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. It would be fun to try.
Not practical, but fun. Just because an engine can run doesn't mean it can provide enough power. And for aircraft, it and it's fuel must also be light enough to be carried into the air.

I can't see a wood powered craft sustaining flight. But I could see it sitting on the ground, firing up the boiler, and timing the fuel burn such that the boiler reaches peak temp just before the heavy fuel is used up, then "sprinting" into the air for a short distance. "Sprinting" being a relative term, as it would likely be a large winged, slow moving type of craft, like an ultralight or the Wright Flyer.

People have tried to fly odder things. I recall at least one serious effort at making a man-carrying plane powered by rubber bands. The demonstration of the rubber bands failure mode was impressively explosive. I don't recall if they ever got that to work.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well when you put it that way, I'm sure there are some things that
could be learned in the exercise about materials science and the like.

Whatever is learned could have more practical application on the ground.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Ah! Found a link. Out of date?
http://www.rubberbandit.org/

Seems to end about 2003, with no info on flight attempts, etc... :(
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It's slightly less ridiculous than some energy storage schemes...
...you hear about, although, come to think of it, I am somewhat stretched to come up with an example. It's nothing to get all wound up about, I guess.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Ouch
If only steel mills could be run on puns. ;)
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well you probably don't want me to prop up this line, and I don't want
to create such a flap as to send the thread into a tailspin but nonetheless, I'll just wing it:

When you refer to a steal mill, I have no idea about the amount of punishment inflicted at Enron, but I do believe that this mill was not stolen exactly, except maybe from the people who worked there.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. Well, it could eat other wooden aircraft for fuel.
I sense a really weird alternative-universe SF story lurking in this. Imagine cybernetic (w/spring-and-lever logic engines, natch) wood-fired aircraft that escape from their pilots, turn feral, and begin evolving and diversifying ... sounds like it could fit in one of China Mieville's New Crobuzon stories ...
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. That's actually kinda neat.
I could see an anime of that being done.
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