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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 06:18 PM
Original message
European Heat Wave Shows Limits of Nuclear Energy
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0728-06.htm

PARIS - The extreme hot summer in Europe is restricting nuclear energy generation and showing up the limits of nuclear power, leading environmental activists and scientists say.

<snip>

"For many years now, French authorities have defended nuclear power arguing that it is clean energy, good for the environment, and that it will help combat global warming, for it does not emit greenhouse gases," Stephane Lhomme, coordinator of the environmental network Sortir du Nucleaire (Phase Out Nuclear Power) told IPS.

"Now, with global warming leading to extreme hot summers, we are witnessing that it is the other way round," Lhomme said. "Global warming is showing the limits of nuclear power plants, and nuclear power is destroying our environment."

<snip>

In France, nuclear scientist Hubert Reeves urged the government to "invest massively" in renewable energy resources. "We are behind many of our European partners such as Germany, Denmark and Spain in this matter, and cannot wait until the energy crisis reaches its climax to find an alternative to our present model," he told IPS.

<more>
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. I can't say I understand the mechanics of renewable energy
but I know that it is just as reliable and cleaner than nuclear energy. So glad to hear that European countries are leading the way in this arena. America seems to be in a slow decline and going back wards when it comes to providing it's citizens with the best of energy, health care, education, retirement. We need progressive leadership that values these types of resources for all it's citizens.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Wind and solar are NOT as reliable as nuclear.
Wind and Sun do not blow and shine 90% of the time.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. this is grossly exagerated
the increase of the rejected water is only 2° C. It's true that higher water temperatures can cause oxygen deprivation, but that's mostly true in stagnant systems. Besides "ammoniac" has nothing to do with it. They probably mean ammonia that can be found in small quantities during putrefaction.

that doesn't mean that renewable energies aren't a better alternative. But it would be more intelligent to concentrate on real environmental problems thant more than minor inconvenients during a short period of time.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I disagree, a 2 degree increase is significant
especially when water temperatures are at their seasonal highs and oxygen levels and stream flows are near seasonal lows.

And especially during heatwaves...

Above average temperatures in the Klamath River caused a massive fish kill in 2002. Temperature stress had a cascading effect on fish mortality due to increased susceptibility to bacterial pathogens and parasites.

http://or.water.usgs.gov/pubs/WRIR03-4099/

http://www.klamathforestalliance.org/Newsarticles/newsarticle20050725.html

http://www.fws.gov/sacramento/ea/news_releases/2003%20News%20Releases/Klamath%20River%20new%20USFWS%20Salmon%20die-off%20study%202002%20.NR.htm

And, even at relatively low concentrations, the oxidation of ammoniac (ammonium) by nitrifying bacteria can significantly reduce oxygen concentrations (2 moles of oxygen are consumed during the oxidation of one mole of NH4+ to nitrate NO3-).

Again, these realtively small increases in temperature and ammonium discharge can tip aquatic systems into dystrophy...
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. French nuclear scientist: "We should abandon nuclear power"
From the article:
In France, nuclear scientist Hubert Reeves urged the government to "invest massively" in renewable energy resources. "We are behind many of our European partners such as Germany, Denmark and Spain in this matter, and cannot wait until the energy crisis reaches its climax to find an alternative to our present model," he told IPS.

A crisis, he said, "is round the corner." Fossil energy sources are about to be exhausted, and "nuclear technology will not solve present problems within a reasonable period of time. We should abandon nuclear power and invest in alternative sources."

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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. That makes absolutely no sense.
The OP whines about global warming, which is caused by green house gas producing energy, then claims that nuclear energy is responsible even though it does not produce any green house gases. Just rubbish.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hogwash
All thermal generating plants, whether fossil, nuclear, geothermal or solar require a cold source.
Basic thermodynamics, you can't extract more energy from the working fluid (Steam in this case) than the difference between the two states (Hot and Cold).

The amount of cooling required is directly proportional to the amount of energy being generated. (Being the product of {1-efficiency}*{Power Generated})
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. PV modules, solar stirling generators and wind turbines don't require H2O
during operation.

During a summer heatwave, PV would shine - power generation would follow diurnal AC loads and they would not tax local water supplies.

Also, smaller biomass and biogas combined heat and power plants dissipate their "waste" heat as usable thermal energy. Their cooling water requirements are much lower than non-CHP plants.

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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Stirling needs cold source
The stirling is a thermal engine and needs both hot and a place to dump the waste heat(cold).
Wind and PV are good. CHP works well if you have a use for this byproduct. Otherwise the waste has to be dissipated to the environment just like a conventional plant.


There are a number of strategies that will work. Putting the waste heat into existing bodies of water is one of the cheapest, but not the only option. The real question for France; Is this a shortage of Cooling Capacity or Generation Capacity. Put another way did Electricity France design their current systems to be able to support the load during this time of year. And were burnt by a drought beyond reasonable design considerations. (e.g. More than a 1 in 100 year event) Or did they just fail to build a ample supply of generation capacity?

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. The stirling generators to be deployed in California don't use water
Edited on Mon Jul-31-06 01:08 PM by jpak
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/breaking_news.htm

<snip>

The SES dish technology converts thermal energy to electricity by using a mirror array to focus the sun's rays on the receiver end of a Stirling engine. The internal side of the receiver then heats hydrogen gas, which expands. The pressure created by the expanding gas drives a piston, crank shaft, and drive shaft assembly much like those found in internal combustion engines but without igniting the gas. The drive shaft is connected to a small electricity generator. The entire energy conversion process takes place within a canister the size of an oil barrel. The process requires no water and the engine is emission-free.

<end snip>

see 'em here...

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/breaking_news_photos.htm
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Appear to be air cooled
Hard to tell from the photo's and descriptions. But the Stirling engine you linked to, when operating at it's 25KW rating. Generates over 6KW in waste heat (At Carnot eff.)

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yup
:hi:
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Can't nuclear reactors be built with air-cooling towers as well?
At the very least, air-cooling could supplement water cooling to reduce water requirements.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. All thermal plants can be air cooled
It's just cheaper to use an existing source of cooling water. There is no reason that closed loop cooling towers cannot be used to transfer the waste heat to the air. Except for want of dollars and space.
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