Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Pond scum, a saviour with feet of clay...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:14 AM
Original message
Pond scum, a saviour with feet of clay...
From http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2541 :

This is a guest post by Dr, John Benemann, who identifies himself as "both as Manager of the International Network on Biofixation of Carbon Dioxide and Greenhouse Gas Abatement with Microalgae (operated by the Int. Energy Agency, Greenhouse Gas R&D Programme) and also as a researcher in this field for over 30 years".

7. I was the Principal Investigator and main author of the U.S. DOE Aquatic Species Program (ASP) Close-Out Report, and thus am rather familiar with it. The report was published by NREL with their own introduction that paints a perhaps somewhat too-positive picture in light of the actual data and results. Thus it should be used with some caution. This report was meant to just summarize the work done by the ASP, which spent about $100 million, (in today's dollars) over about a decade and a half.

8. Microalgae biofuels generally, and algae biodiesel production specifically, is still a long-term R&D goal (likely about 10 years), that will require at least as much funding as the ASP, if not more, and success is, as for any R&D effort, rather uncertain.

9. Some near term applications can be considered, in wastewater treatment specifically (but, wait, do not rush to your nearest algae wastewater treatment ponds - there are thousands of these around, but they are mostly very small and their algae have little or no oil, at least the way that we operate those systems at present. Making oil from algae grown on wastewaters also still requires significant R&D).

10. There are now scores of venture-financed companies, university research groups, government labs, garage start-ups, GFT licensees, web sites, and on and on claiming that they have, can, may and/or will produce algae biodiesel, at low cost, high productivity, soon, etc. None are based on data, experience, reality or even a correct reading of the literature.

11. I am not aware of any work in this field done by Prof. Briggs at U. New Hampshire, outside from an old website that quotes the Aquatic Species Program Close Out Report. There is no basis for the projections he makes for very high biodiesel production rates.

12. Even if R&D proves successful and we can actually produce algae biofuels (maybe even biodiesel) economically (whatever the economics may be a decade or so from now), even then, I am sorry to say that due to resource (land, water, etc.) limitations, algae will not replace all our (or their) oil wells, cannot solve our entire global warming problem, or make me rich quick, at least not honestly. But maybe this technology could be developed in the next few years so that in the future it can make a contribution to our energy supplies, our environment and human welfare.

We will in the future need all such technologies and must in the present study and develop all those that appear at least on their face plausible. But we also must reject those, as in the present case, that are based on absurd claims (such as in this case of productivity) and bizarre contraptions (e.g. closed photobioreactors).

There are no silver bullets, no winner-take-all technologies, no technological fixes, the solution to our energy and environment crisis can only come from, in order, 'demand' management, efficiency improvements, and new energy supplies, to which, maybe, algae processes can contribute.

I hope that this posting helps persuade GFT, and all others in this "business", to CEASE AND DESIST from the absurd and totally bizarre claims they are making. PLEASE!!


Oh well, so much for pond scum saving the day. I have heard of this new approach using corn to produce ethanol that sounds very promising, however.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Gee, better tell these guys before it's too late and they do something that can't be done...
NZ firm makes bio-diesel from sewage in world first

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10381404

A New Zealand company has successfully turned sewage into modern-day gold.

Marlborough-based Aquaflow Bionomic yesterday announced it had produced its first sample of bio-diesel fuel from algae in sewage ponds.

It is believed to be the world's first commercial production of bio-diesel from "wild" algae outside the laboratory - and the company expects to be producing at the rate of at least one million litres of the fuel each year from Blenheim by April.

To date, algae-derived fuel has only been tested under controlled conditions with specially grown algae crops, said spokesman Barrie Leay.

<more>

New Company to Produce Biodiesel From Algae

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/06/new_company_to.php

<snip>

Algae BioFuels, a subsidiary of PetroSun Drilling, will be engaged in the research and development of algae cultivation as an energy source in the production of biodiesel. The R&D and production facilities for Algae BioFuels will be based in Arizona and Australia.

<snip>

PetroSun and Algae Biodiesel in Final Testing Stage

PetroSun Drilling and its Algae BioFuels subsidiary (earlier) are entering the final stage of field testing prior to building a commercial facility for algae biodiesel production.

<snip>

Algae BioFuels is considering sites in Arizona, New Mexico, California, Louisiana and Michigan for its initial commercial cultivation of algae feedstock in the United States. Australia and China are the leading candidates for production and refinery operations in the foreign marketplace.

<more>

Arizona Dairy Group Building Integrated Dairy-Biofuels Operation

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/05/arizona_dairy_g.html

Arizona-based XL Dairy Group is building a biorefinery that combines a dairy operation with a biofuels plant and fractionation mill to produce ethanol, biodiesel, milk and dairy products, and animal feed, along with 100% of the energy required to run the plant.

XL Dairy Group projects that its $260 million project, located on 2,700 acres in Vicksburg, Arizona, will generate ethanol with an energy efficiency ratio of 10:1, compared to 1.2:1 for a conventional dry-grind corn ethanol plants and 8:1 for sugarcane plants. For every Btu of fossil fuel energy needed to produce ethanol and biodiesel, XL Dairy Group will produce 10 Btu.

<snip>

XL Dairy Group also is waiting for patent approval on a proprietary, low-cost algae production system, which will then be incorporated into the XL BioRefinery to lower operating costs and expand the production of motor fuels and animal feeds.

"Because algae has a higher oil content than corn, and needs much less acreage to produce much higher volumes, which we will do at the site, we expect to expand to 100 million gallons of ethanol and 25-30 million gallons of biodiesel over the next five years.

<more>




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. He didn't say it couldn't be done
He said it can't be done economically yet. Are you saying he doesn't know what he's talking about? You, a nameless blogposter, know better than a man with his credentials? You're being ridiculous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Dr. Michael Biggs on algal biodiesel...
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/05/289306.shtml

Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae

<snip>

I. Large scale production

There are two steps that would need to be taken for producing biodiesel on a large scale - growing the feedstocks, and processing them into biodiesel. The latter step would perhaps be best accomplished by existing oil refineries within the US being converted to biodiesel refineries, but could also be accomplished by new companies building new plants. The main issue that is often contested is whether or not we would be able to grow enough crops to provide the oil for producing the amount of biodiesel that would be required to completely replace petroleum as a transportation fuel. So, that is the main issue that will be addressed here.

The Office of Fuels Development, a division of the Department of Energy, funded a program from 1978 through 1996 under the National Renewable Energy Laboratory known as the "Aquatic Species Program". The focus of this program was to investigate high oil yield algaes that could be grown specifically for the purpose of wide scale biodiesel production1. Some species of algae are ideally suited to biodiesel production due to their high oil content (some as much as 50% oil), and extremely fast growth rates. From the results of the Aquatic Species Program2, algae farms would let us supply enough biodiesel to completely replace petroleum as a transportation fuel in the US (as well as its other main use - home heating oil).

One of the important concerns about wide scale development of biodiesel is if it would displace croplands currently used for food crops. With algae, that concern is completely eliminated, as algae grows ideally in either hot desert climates or off of waste streams. NREL's research focused on the development of algae farms in desert regions, using shallow salt water pools for growing the algae. Another nice benefit of using algae as a food stock is that in addition to using considerably less water than traditional oilseed crops, algae also grows best in salt water, so farms could be built near the ocean with no need to desalinate the seawater as it is used to fill the ponds.

NREL's research showed that one quad (ten billion gallons) of biodiesel could be produced from 200,000 hectares of desert land (200,000 hectares is equivalent to 780 square miles). In the previous section, we found that to replace all transportation fuels in the US, we would need 140.8 billion gallons of biodiesel, or roughly 14 quads. To produce that amount would require a land mass of almost 11,000 square miles. To put that in perspective, consider that the Sonora desert in the southwestern US comprises 120,000 square miles. As can be seen in Figure 1 below, the Sonora desert is located along the Pacific ocean, making it an ideal location for algae farms. The arid climate of the desert is very supportive of algae growth, and the nearby ocean could supply saltwater for the algae ponds. Enough biodiesel to replace all petroleum transportation fuels could be grown in 11,000 square miles, or roughly nine percent of the area of the Sonora desert.

<more>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Oh?
From Dr. Benemann's article:

7. I was the Principal Investigator and main author of the U.S. DOE Aquatic Species Program (ASP) Close-Out Report, and thus am rather familiar with it. The report was published by NREL with their own introduction that paints a perhaps somewhat too-positive picture in light of the actual data and results. Thus it should be used with some caution. This report was meant to just summarize the work done by the ASP, which spent about $100 million, (in today's dollars) over about a decade and a half.

(...)

11. I am not aware of any work in this field done by Prof. Briggs at U. New Hampshire, outside from an old website that quotes the Aquatic Species Program Close Out Report. There is no basis for the projections he makes for very high biodiesel production rates.


I know who I think is more credible on this issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Pardon me, I forgot the First Rule of the E/E Forum
"When your position is questioned, resort immediately to the Ad Hominem attack."

*yawn*

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That is not an ad hominem argument.
Benemann is citing the study, and saying it should be cited with caution, due to insufficient backing by applied experience. Which, if I recall, Biggs himself also says in the introduction to his own paper.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. That comment was directed primarily at post #2
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I would classify post #2 as an appeal to authority.
which is not inherently fallacious. Referring to you as a nameless blogger might seem rude, but it's in contrast to being a public expert whose name stands behind his opinions.

I regularly hold forth my opinions on all manner of topics here in DU, almost none of which I'm an expert at. I make a good-faith effort to be as correct as I can, and admit when I'm wrong, but it's equally true that I stick my neck out on various topics because I'm just another nameless blogger too, and there are no pratical consequences to the reputation of my Clark Kent identity.

I note that GG, on the other hand, has made it public that his real name is Paul Chefurka. So, his posts carry some potential weight with his real identity. Which doesn't make him more or less right about anything, but it does add some weight of integrity. Or do we now use "gravitas?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Actually, the first rule of political debate is:
"Never respond directly to a commentary that damages your position. Always attempt to reframe the debate into terms favourable to your own position."

I've seen you do this on innumerable occasions. It has damaged your credibility enormously because the behaviour is so transparent. I try to be respectful towards people with whom I disagree so long as they argue in good faith. I don't think you debate in good faith (on the topic of biofuels at least), so my natural tendency towards politeness and respect is somewhat diminished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Obviously you know.
On the other hand, there's a tremendous force there, a sample, an R&D facility and a patent.

It's very clear that New Zealand will stop importing oil next year, and will be fueling all of China with algae based biodiesel by 2010.

It's interesting that the New Zealand company in an article dated May 2006 said it would be producing 1,000,000 liters by "April." Who here thinks they have accomplished that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Why not click on over to TOD and debate the subject directly?
It would be very interesting to get the input of Robert Rapier et. al. on the articles you cite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. There's a fundamental biological problem with algae biodiesel...
How do you keep the cultures uncontaminated with non-oil producing algae?

An algae that is not wasting solar energy producing oil will be more competitive in the aquatic system than one that is.

Even if you manage to make the culture toxic to everything but your oil producing algae, there will be a strong selective pressure favoring the reproduction of those algae that produce less oil. This is not a cornfield where the generations are annual. These are living things that can reproduce every twenty minutes when the sun is shining, and the populations of individual organisms are very, very large.

In a large system it approaches certainty that the culture will be contaminated by less productive algae, either from external sources, or by evolution within the culture.

The process is more akin to drug production by genetically engineered cells than to agriculture, and even with many years of experience now, drug production by genetically engineered cells is expensive and culture failures common.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That's the problem the Kiwis apparently solved
and that's why its important.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I'm still skeptical.
I think I'm gonna coin a new phrase: "GirvanChurn"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hankthecrank Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Oh you mean like silver bullet horses
Edited on Thu May-17-07 11:47 PM by hankthecrank
No bio diesel
no black smiths
no mechanics
no engineers
All going to fade away
Bullshit!


Oh never mind been a very long day. Life is to short
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC