The "myth" of the "gunshow loophole"

Many who feel that gun laws in the U.S. are too lax cite the "gunshow loophole" as a major source for criminals to purchase firearms. However there requirements to sell of buy a firearm at a gunshow are the same as any other place a firearm may be bought or sold. A licensed dealer must perform a NICS check anytime they sell a firearm to an unlicensed person NO MATTER THE LOCATION of the sale. There are a few exceptions to the NICS requirement. Some states issue firearms ID cards that require a background check to obtain. Arizona also allows concealed carry permit holders to bypass the NICS check. In these cases a thorough background check has already been performed that satifies the Brady Law. Private sales do not require a background check.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that less then 1% of armed criminals obtain their firearms at a gunshow. The same report shows that 40% of armed criminals obtain their firearm from an illegal source. Another 40% of armed criminals obtain their firearms for family or friends.
A great deal of effort is being expended to pass a law that would have little impact on where criminals purchase firearms.]
The "gunshow loophole" is a fallacy because the laws that govern the sale of firearms are the same regardless of location.

For further reading see:
The FAQ page for the ATF
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm
See table 8 on page 6 of the following PDF file from the BJS for sources of firearms used by criminals
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

If any given law offends, a short car ride puts you in a jurisdiction that does not offend.

The gun shops the ring the outside of city and county borders where strick laws are in effect make any analysis of the effectiveness of gun laws a joke.

The NIH study just released review all those NRA funded/sponsored gun law effectiveness studies to date and concluded that they proved nothing about gun laws being ineffective.

Of course the NRA will spin the NIH study to be saying that no study has shown that gun laws ARE effective.

And you go with the spin you like.

But the real problem is a lack of National gun laws. IMHO.

:-)

I haven't heard about a NIH study, do you mean the CDC study?

the Tom Delay speech screamed that the NIH was wasting taxpayers money doing the review of all studies to date study.

The executive summary of this response is - Yes - I meant the CDC study!

:-)

In Illinois the laws are uniformly applied as far as background checks etc. Gun show, store or mass merchandiser like Wal Mart, the rules are the same.

No gun show "loophole" here at least, but the VPC local chapter keeps ranting about it in the news beacuse the majority of the population is ignorant (in the true sense of the word) of the law and just respond to the hype.

The crossing of State lines makes it even more complicated. If I want to buy a rifle I see in Wisconsin, or Indiana they have to ship it to a FFL in Illinois and the IL 24 hr. waiting period is in effect. There is also an addtional transfer fee charged as well.

I can't buy a handgun in Wisconsin to ship to Illinois.

Most Illinois dealers will not sell a handgun to a anyone with a Chicago address on their FOID card or drivers license. Pretty consistent enforcement too.

Don P.

"(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. <18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29>"

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2

Private sale between individuals who reside in different states are prohibited.

Private sale between individuals who reside in different states are prohibited.

May I ask how this in enforced?????

All of the states have aligned their laws pertaining to importation of firearms with federal laws, so to answer your question (at least what it appears to be on the surface) either federal or state/local cops could arrest someone who illegally transports a gun across state lines.

But if I'm reading you correctly you are pointing out the difficulty of enforcing transactions between individuals conducted in private. That's a fact, just as it is with drug deals.

Does that mean the only way to eliminate this would be requiring a background check for EVERY gun transaction?

A good start would be to make NICS available to private parties with a personal gun or three to sell.

The same way any ban is enforced... that is to say, it isn't because it can't be. I'm coming to the conclusion that on one front, the gunners are right. Criminals will get the guns they want no matter what.

I'm in the process of reading a very disturbing report about the use of firearms in crime around the world. I'm going to check all the references in this report then I plan on scanning it in and posting a link here.

the suburbs did not - si county line gun shops sprung up. Indeed the same occurs in Wash DC where where a drive over the bridge to Virginia ends all problems (I am only referring to purchase - giving a false address does not seem to be a problem)

As you note, Indiana purchase is easy - but you break a law bringing it back to Illinois without proper procedure).

The "do not ship handguns to Illinois rule for Wis dealers" is new to me - I hunted in Illinois for 20 years - and in Wis and Ind and the U.P of Mich- and never heard of such a law - but then that was well before Reagan was President and Brady influenced changes.

In anycase perhaps I am on the "other side" of this topic since I see no problem with gun regulations and waiting periods. When I was 10 the only rule I knew was to keep the shotgun "broken open" for safety while walking with the dogs! I think there was a do not shoot at power line birds rule - that many folks forgot!

:-)

Most of the dealers in the collar counties won't even sell to any Chicago residents anymore since Daley set up the CAGE units (Chicago Area Gun Enforcement) to go out and try to buy handguns with Chicago addresses. If they sold to the undercover cops they were busted when they made delivery three days later.

I found out about no handguns shipped last summer when I tried to buy a really nice Colt SAA I came across in Hayward Wisconsin on a fishing trip. After we decided ona price the guy stared at my FOID Card and said, sorry. Long guns yes, handguns no.

The same thing holds true for Indiana, Minnesota and Michigan. You can't buy anything with out being able to prove residency.

Don P.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=dige02m&date=20031002&query=gun+sales

Oct 02. 2003

Bremerton man indicted on federal weapons counts

SEATTLE — A Bremerton gun dealer has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges that he illegally sold weapons at gun shows and didn't keep track of his inventory.

Eric Robert Barnes, 42, ran a retail gun store out of his Bremerton home, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Seattle. He frequented gun shows in Kitsap and Skagit counties, where he sold handguns and rifles.

According to the 179-count indictment, Barnes — a U.S. Navy petty officer who had been a crewman on nuclear submarines — failed to log the purchases and sales of many of the guns in his inventory as required by law. Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seized 165 unlogged guns from Barnes' home, said Assistant U.S. Attorney William Redkey.

According to a Seattle Times database, six weapons he sold in 1996 and 1997 were traced to crimes, including a homicide, an assault and possession of a weapon by a criminal.

and is being prosecuted for the violation.

when it exists? There is a loophole. According to federal law, unlicensed dealers, even at these violent gatherings, can sell weapons without background checks.

There is very little if any violence at a gunshow. If someone is making there living buying and selling firearms, then by definition they are a dealer. If they are a dealer, but not licensed then they are in violation of Federal law. Why is a new law needed when being an unlicensed dealer in already in violation of current law?

...they were selling clothes, beanie babies, food etc.

Of guns or any other kind of ordinary personal property.

The term "private-party transfers loophole" would be a more accurate phrase to describe the situation.

they would have to admit what a dangerous and corrupt policy this is....but this silly tack allows for obfuscation and hooey.

See reply #14.

The federal government has only the powers granted to it under the Consitution of the United States. Regulating private transfers of used tools or other inanimate objects is not among those powers.

But thanks for playing "What's my RKBA fantasy?"

It's all there for anyone who chooses not to remain blinded by ignorance and hatred.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

such as "why would the gun industry be spending millions to have the GOP block legislation in committee," I always go by the interpretation of an RKBA "enthusiast"....NOT..

Now I'm calling you on it.

"...why would the gun industry be spending millions to have the GOP block legislation in committee..."

Cite, please.

Your claim fails the smell test. It really makes no sense in the context of this discussion. The misnamed gun-show loophole pertains only to sales of USED guns no matter which state or states you're talking about.

The gun industry doesn't have a dog in the GSL fight because they make profits only from sales of NEW guns. All sales of new guns are regulated. Your persistence in using the term gun-show loophole perpetuates misunderstandings on all levels. Shame on you.

unlike the crap the RKBA crowd peddles.

"Your claim fails the smell test."
Hahahahahaha! Who the hell are you trying to kid??

Tell us, what is the status of H.R. 260? In the last Congress, what was the status of H.R. 2221? Or H.R.2377? Or H.R.4034? Or S.767 ? S.890? Or the bills in the 106th Congress? Why do you suppose the gun industry has given more than $14 million (85% of its donations) to the GOP?


"he gun industry doesn't have a dog in the GSL fight"
Who the hell are you trying to kid? Or are you trying to pretend that only manufacturers of new guns make up this corrupt industry?

"Your persistence in using the term gun-show loophole perpetuates misunderstandings"
Rubbish. The onnly misunderstanding around on this issue is the one you and the rest of the RKBA crowd are deliberately trying to foster.

No verifiable references, and now this gem of debate:

"Who the hell are you trying to kid? Or are you trying to pretend that only manufacturers of new guns make up this corrupt industry?

I take it you want to include manufacturers of used guns among the number of the "corrupt gun industry".

:dunce:

Kerep on trying to pretend that more than 100,000 kitchen table dealers aren't any part of the gun industry....it's hilarious to see.

Even for sales at gun shows. Just like Big 5 Sporting Goods.

And Wayne LaPierre is Queen of the Sugar Plum Faeries...

Don't "kitchen table dealers" have to have FFLs? Please provide a link to BATF where it says "kitchen table dealers" are exempt from conducting background checks.

so much, here's crazy Bill Buckley's gang moaning about the situation...

"Colorado State Rep. Shawn Mitchell (R-Broomfield) held a press conference to point out Clinton’s amazing hypocrisy in demanding special restrictions for gun shows. Many of the private collectors who today sell guns at gun shows are people who used to have a federal firearms license (FFL). As FFL holders, these dealers put their customers through all the federally-required checks and paperwork. The small-time vendors lost their licenses in 1993 through 1996, when Bill Clinton’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms launched a campaign to make these dealers surrender or not renew their licenses. The pretext was that these vendors didn’t sell enough guns to qualify as dealers, or that they did not have a storefront for their home-based business. (Federal law does not require gun dealers to have a storefront, but this technicality didn’t bother Clinton’s BATF.) "

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment041800a.html

and in case you didn't know this, if you don't have a FFL, you can't engage in the business of dealing in guns.

I don't do it reflexively, like the RKBA crowd does. I thought it was damn funny that I found the Nazional Review sniveling about something YOU were trying to deny existed.

if a "kitchen table dealer" has their FFL pulled, they're effectively out of business. They can no longer order guns for resale.

"they're effectively out of business"
Unless they start posing as "private sellers."

devoting time and energy to selling guns for a profit, they're dealing without a license, which is illegal.

It's a catch-22 situation.

...that a person will get a FFL, order say a thousand guns, give up the FFL and then sell the guns without a license? Have any proof of that happening? If so what jail is he in?

but don't let that stop you frrom making shit up, roe...

...are you saying?!?

You made no effort to prove me wrong because you know I'm right.

Nothing but lies from the gun rights crowd...

"Forty percent of guns sold in the U.S. are sold by private sellers. 4 ½ million new guns are sold in the U.S. each year. Add to that the 2 million second-hand guns that change hands each year. There are well over 4,000 gun shows in the U.S. each year. At these shows, about a quarter of the sellers are private sellers, not licensed dealers."

http://www.safestatekansas.org/Gun%20Shows.htm

That is a fact that completely blows away every argument you've ever made on this subject.

And a bullet doesn't care whether it goes into a new gun or a used one. Wouldn't the gun industry have a vested interest in INCREASING the NUMBER of guns out there???

why? The greater the supply of guns, the less they can charge.

That's why the import ban was passed in '68...to keep surplus guns from lowering prices.

The greater the supply of guns, the greater the demand.

The greater the demand, the higher the price.

Free-market economics at work.

what about market saturation?

If somebody made or imported 50 million guns into the US this year, the price would either fall, or be maintained but the guns not sell.

economics supply and demand doesn't work like that.
As supply increases price decreases.
As demand decreases price decreases.
As supply decreases price increases.
As demand increases price increases.

I paid attention in my economics class!

The ammo industry does feed off the civilian market to keep itself going when government contracts are thin, but isn't it a stretch to suggest that a person's ammo consumption is proportional to the number of guns he or she owns? I typically shoot anywhere from 100 - 500 rounds of ammunition in an afternoon, but that number is the same whether I take one gun to the range or six of them.

And of course, there are all those charming thugs going from show to show calling themselves "private sellers."

The people going from show to show posing as private sellers are a big part of the gun industry. Who the hell are you trying to kid, slack?

Argumentum Ad Bogeymanum:

The Evil Corrupt Gun Industry, brought to you by your friends at the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.

that anti-gun groups are just as paraniod with conspiracy theories as they claim the RKBA groups are.
:tinfoilhat:

that data come from. There is no source given on the page you referenced.

And MrBenchley cited it as an authoritative source.

Typical anti-RKBA bullshit propaganda.

Is everyone on the "honor system"???

"kitchen table dealers" are subject to routine ATFE audit and all other laws pertaining to gun shops.

A large number of them are pretending to be "private sellers."

An FFL holder cannot legally engage in "off book" sales for profit. Anyone who does so risks loss of the license and criminal prosecution with a possible long sentence in Federal Pound Me In The Ass prison.

"In 1992, the Violence Policy Center exposed the many problems generated by insufficient federal and state oversight of federally licensed firearms dealers (FFLs). More Gun Dealers than Gas Stations: A Study of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers in America documented how the more than 245,000 licensed gun dealers contributed to criminal gun flow. The study showed that the sheer number of licensed dealers prevented adequate oversight by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). This lack of oversight permitted many dealers—particularly so-called "kitchen-table" dealers—to serve asa significant source of firearms for criminals and drug gangs....The VPC’s study helped spur legislation that increased dealer licensing fees and improved the background check for dealers. These changes, combined with more vigorous oversight of dealers by the Clinton Administration, have reduced the number of licensed gun dealers in America from 245,000 in 1992 to less than 70,000 today.
ATF identified "kitchen-table" dealers as a significant source of crime guns in Project Detroit, a study undertaken by ATF in 1989 and highlighted in More Gun Dealers Than Gas Stations. The ATF study focused on crime guns recovered by the Detroit Police Department. ATF identified 13 federally licensed firearms dealers who were knowingly supplying guns to criminals. Of those 13, eight were "kitchen-table" dealers. For example:
Steve Durham provided hundreds of firearms to "the most visible and violent narcotics organizations in the Detroit metropolitan area." Durham sold the weapons off the books out of his home under the business name The All-Gun Cleaning Service. Durham also solicited individuals to sign federal 4473 sales forms for firearms they had never purchased. He also supplied prospective buyers with fake names and addresses to be used on the 4473s. Between the time he was granted his FFL in September 1986 up to the time of his arrest in November 1989, ATF agents had executed three federal search warrants at Durham’s home seizing several firearms which Durham had offered to sell to undercover officers posing as convicted felons."

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/rand0406.htm

They investigated some gun dealers, found that some of them were breaking the law, and some of them even got prosecuted.

:toast:

:puke:

The VPC is a terrific sourcce...and unlike the NRA, it's not a bunch of right wing bigots peddling lies.

Every journey through the VPC Web site ends at a place to buy some of their dreadful lies.

BTW - 100 replies on this thread.

Woo-Hoo! :toast:

I suggest you snivel about it to someone who gives a crrap.

If you're getting flak, that means you are above the target.

:D

are subject to arrest if they are selling guns for profit as a business venture without a license.

You can't have it both ways. According to your logic, if they have a license, they're bad. If they don't have a license, they're bad. So which should they be? Licensed or unlicensed?

"According to your logic, if they have a license, they're bad. If they don't have a license, they're bad."
Yeah, surrrre....

It would sure be swell if anybody in the RKBA ccrowd was able to read what was actually written.

I've read what you've written. It's pretty goofy.

To sum up:

"Kitchen table dealers" shouldn't have FFLs.
"Kitchen table dealers" without FFLs are bad.

What do you have against kitchen tables?

Close the gun show loophole and police FFL dealers much more stringently, as a start.

wouldn't you want the "kitchen table dealers" to have FFLs so they can be policed?

There's no reason to let every half-ass dingbat who wants to, sell guns...

Put the kitchen table crowd out of the gun business....and police the dealerships more closely....

Doesn't that get into a restraint of trade issue?

any more than we let any idiot call himself a pharmacist and dispense prescriptions...

eom

prescription
SYLLABICATION: pre·scrip·tion
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: pr-skrpshn     KEY
NOUN: 1a. The act of establishing official rules, laws, or directions. b. Something prescribed as a rule.
2a. A written order, especially by a physician, for the preparation and administration of a medicine or other treatment. b. A prescribed medicine or other treatment. c. An ophthalmologist's or optometrist's written instruction, as for the grinding of corrective lenses.

Okay, so liscensed dealers buy from distributors or manufacturers to sell to the public. They must do the background check and paperwork. I'm assuming this is factual.

Private sellers or "unliscensed dealers" do not have the government liscense and do not do the background check. Again I am assuming this is factual.

Now, here is my question. To purchase a gun from a distributor or manufacturer, is there a verification system in place to check if a buyer is a liscensed dealer or not? If not, why not? I'd think such a system would easily solve the problem.

in order to buy a gun through the mail, you have to have a copy of your FFL on file with the distributor, including an original ink signature. The distributor can only ship to the address on the FFL. No FFL on file, no guns. If there's a question, the distributor can input the FFL number into an ATFE Database, and it will confirm if the license is valid or not.

That without a license (FFL?) that a person cannot purchase through the mail or direct from a distributer or manufacturer? The system in place is federally controled and operated as well? Now, is this regulation or law? Please cite sources if possible.

If the above is true, then Mr. Benchley is sorely incorrect. This then brings up another question... Just what is the gunshow loophole? My understanding now is that a person with an FFL must conduct his business the same at a gunshow as he would at his place of business. Private selling and buying are not regulated on the federal level at all? It's more of a matter of state and local ordinances?

Every dealer, manufacturer, et cetera is issued a FFL. In order to receive a gun in interstate commerce, a copy of that FFL must bear an original signature in ink, and must be sent to the seller. the ONLY exception to this is for warrantee or repair work. The owner of a firearm may ship the gun to the licensed manufacturer without a FFL, and the manufacturer may ship the repaired firearm back to the owner.

Here's the law on that:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=922

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in
interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to
engage in the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign
commerce;
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector
licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or
transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any
person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that -
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to
preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from
whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to
preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in
compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector;
(B) this paragraph shall not be held to preclude a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer from
depositing a firearm for conveyance in the mails to any
officer, employee, agent, or watchman who, pursuant to the
provisions of section 1715 of this title, is eligible to
receive through the mails pistols, revolvers, and other
firearms capable of being concealed on the person, for use in
connection with his official duty; and
(C) nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as applying
in any manner in the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of
Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States differently
than it would apply if the District of Columbia, the
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the possession were in fact a
State of the United States;

Periodic audits by BATFE agents. All licensed dealers have the same strict recordkeeping requirements and are subject to the same kind of federal scrutiny.

...this is the first time in recorded history that the words 'obfuscation and hooey' were ever used in the same sentence. Way to go Benchley!

...at my computer monitor. WTF are you talking about "these violent gatherings"?

Anyone who is engaged in buying and selling guns for profit has to have a Federal Firearms License. Dealing guns without an FFL is a major felony.

I'd like a definition of meaning, not a buzz phrase.

see this post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=14713#14717

Thank you. In essence, there is no such thing as an unlicensed dealer. It's a buzz phrase like assault weapon. If my understanding is correct, a person that engages in the selling and buying of firearms as a means of income and profit must be licensed or face criminal charges. A person that buys or sells for personal collecting or aquisition is not considered a dealer and therefore does not need to be licensed but this person may not order from a distributer or manufacturer?

This would allow the collector to purchase firearms classified by the ATF as curios and relics. Any firearm 50 years or older qualifies as a curio or relic under this law. There is a list published by the ATF listing some eligible firearms, the list is not all inclusive due to the 50 year clause above. A person holding a CC&R license may not act as a dealer (means of profit). They also may not use their license to purchase "modern" firearms. The license will not allow the collector to purchase from the manufacturer because most items are not 'new.' A CC&R license holder may purchase eligible firearms directly from the distributor.

Here is a link the partial list of eligible firearms:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

This is the ATF FAQ page about the collectors license:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#g

Most of the firearms that are Curio and Relic eligible are WWI and WWII vintage firearms.

Rifles:
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_10.html

Handguns
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_2.html

I hold a CC&R license. It allows me to purchase the above firearms directly from the Distribtor/Wholesaler.

The following firearms are not C&R eligible and I must purchase these from a Dealer the same as anyone that does not have a C&R license would.

Rifles
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_13.html

Semi-Auto Rifles
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_11.html

Handguns
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_14.html
and
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_75.html
and finally
http://www.centuryarms.com/store/en-us/dept_47.html

"The "gunshow loophole" is a fallacy"
and Wayne LaPierre is the Queen of the May.

show where it is real.

anyone can walk into a gun show and buy a gun without a background check.

Thanks to Senate Bill 60.

That has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

Or is this just more mindless Democrat-bashing from the RKBA crowd?

Over 20% of inmates in California state prisons are illegal aliens. Along with the majority of basically honest, hard-working people who sneak past our federal immigration laws come drug dealers, smugglers, and other undesirable violent people.

Giving them California Driver Licenses that look just like mine and therefore making it easy for them to go to Big 5 Sporting Goods and buy a gun in a process that has no means in place to verify legal residence is bad policy for the Democratic Party. You rant and rage about the 1s and 10s while our own party has abandoned gun control on the 100s and 1000s in a vain attempt to pander to Hispanic voters in California. An attempt that according to the latest polls is backfiring spectacularly on Gray Davis.

it was just run of the mill RKBA crowd Democrat bashing with a soupcon of bigotry for spice...

Typical anti-RKBA chest beating.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

accepting the fact the the RKBA crowd and Democrats are one in the same in many instances? Most Democrats don't have your agenda or fears.

Now go snivel about it to someone who cares, slack.

from a private party just like they could do in the classifieds of a newspaper but not from a licensed dealer unless the dealer is participating in illegal firearms trafficking. There is no special privileges or loopholes.

32 states I can place an ad in the newspaper, or on an internet chat board. When I find a buyer in the same state as mine I can meet them face to face, say at a rifle range and legally complete the sale without a background check.

in favor of the gun show loophole and less gun control? Weird.

"I can place an ad in the newspaper"
Except that more and more newspapers are refusing to run such ads, after the tragedy in Florida last week.

"or on an internet chat board"
Try stormfront.org...or this one:

http://lylebarkley.blogspot.com/


Of course, it's not likely that either your classified ad or your internet notice will pull the same teeming crowd of racists, loonies and gun nuts that a gun show will....

RKBA "logic"...always hilarious.

I am trying to show that what you refer to as the "gunshow loophole" is actually the "private sale loophole" and to try to just stop private sales at gunshows is "feel good" legislation that will have a minimal effect on how criminals get firearms.

You're making sense.

Don't you know that isn't allowed in here in the Dungeon?

But don't worry, slack...it's still just a pile of hooey.

"I am trying to show that what you refer to as the "gunshow loophole" is actually the "private sale loophole""
So tell us, with...do you want to close the "private sale loophole?"

I think the AWB is a waste of paper and should be allowed to die.
It is illegal for a felon to own a firearm. It is illegal to knowingly sell a firearm to phohibited person. If a person knowingly sells a firearm to a felon they should be charged as an acomplice to any crime commited with that firearm. I think this would be an effectibe method to reduce straw purchases. It would not require any new laws. Dealers that do not adhere to the law when selling firearms should lose their license and go jail if convicted.
I have posted links to studies in other threads that would suggest consistent enforcement of current laws with a simultaneous effort to combat the problems of poverty and other socio-economic problems can effectively reduce gun crime without passing more laws.

its hunky dory with you that lunatics and criminals can be armed by the gun industry..

"I have posted links to studies in other threads that would suggest consistent enforcement of current laws with a simultaneous effort to combat the problems of poverty and other socio-economic problems can effectively reduce gun crime without passing more laws."
And when you are shown loopholes in current laws, you pretend they don't exist.

So in other words its hunky dory with you that lunatics and criminals can be armed by the gun industry.."

(big surprise)
I have posted this before:
I do not think that criminals and other prohibited persons should have access to firearms.

"And when you are shown loopholes in current laws, you pretend they don't exist."
I never said the "private sale loop hole" didn't exist.
I did show that the "gunshow loophole" is a fallacy.

"I do not think that criminals and other prohibited persons should have access to firearms. "
But you demand that no new laws close the loopholes by which they do.

"I never said the "private sale loop hole" didn't exist.
I did show that the "gunshow loophole" is a fallacy."
Yeah, surrrrrrrrrre....and Charlton Heston really parted the Red Sea himself.

I have posted studies that were done that show enforcement of CURRENT laws combined with efforts to combat socio-economics factors can effectively reduce crime in general, not just gun crime. I can post the links again for you if would like. I have yet to see any of these claims rebutted with facts or figures.

that there's a gaping loophole (engineered by the gunn industry) so that criminals and lunatics can obtain guns easily without a background check.

if you are referring to private sales at gunshows, only accounts for less then 1% of how/where armed criminals buy their guns. I would hardly call less then 1% a "gaping hole". I am assumung you are referring to the "gunshow loophole" you are always bringing up. If you are referring to something else please claify the question.

I think gun control advocates need to loosen their tinfoil hats. If they did, their delusions and conspiracy theories might go away.
:tinfoilhat:

and Wayne LaPierrre is the Queen of the May.

what other proof is necessary?
(see first post for references)

MrBenchley is still unable or unwilling to discuss the issue rationally and logically, I see.

You mean I'm not going to pretend the loophole doesn't exist?
Well, you got that right.

That sums up my position on the issue.

It's no wonder nobody takes MrBenchley seriously on these forums.

that there are very few people out there like Mr.B or we'd all be screwed.

His message resonates with a lot of negative propaganda about guns and gun owners, so people who are naive about the subject and afraid to challenge their own attitudes are happy to become his lapdogs and read no deeper into the serious legal, ethical, and moral issues that revolve around gun control.

I think it's very sad that MrB identifies himself as a Democrat. I thought we were supposed to be the party of tolerance and open-mindedness.

always seperates the RKBA crowd and the Democrats. News flash for yah..............they are one in the same quite often.

The RKBA crowd attracts SUCCH an intellectual following...NOT. Let's face it, not many people are as bone-stupid in public as Ted Nugent and John AshKKKroft.....

"the serious legal, ethical, and moral issues that revolve around gun control."
Hahahahahahahahahahaha......like whether guns for the blind is a good idea? Hahahahahahahaha....

All in one four-line post.

Pretty good job of illustrating fallacious arguments.

Another gun rights intellectual speaks:

"MCVEIGH: If it means that I was angered at what the government did at Waco and I enjoy guns as a hobby, I do gun shows and I follow the beliefs of the Founding Fathers. If that means I was involved in the bombing, then that means that about a billion other Americans were involved in the bombing as well. I don't think it is right to take someone's beliefs and convict them because of those beliefs.
TIME: People believe The Turner Diaries was an inspiration for the Oklahoma City bombing. You had this book, right?
MCVEIGH: I bought the book out of the publication that advertised it as a pro-gun-rights book. That's why I bought it; that's why I read it. And that's why I had other people read it. In fact, I just recently read an interview with another Army buddy who said the same thing, that Tim gave me that book and told me to ignore the parts that looked too extreme."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,109478,00.html

This time it's Red Herring.

"Larry Pratt's association with Pat Buchanan goes back many years. Pratt runs an assortment of far-right outfits out of an office in the D.C. area, including Gun Owners of America and English First, and has ties to anti-abortion groups as well. Pratt led an anti-abortion walkout from a Presidential conference on the family. His Gun Owners of America, which provided key funding to elect pro-militia Congress-members in the 1994 Republican take-over of Congress, was an early endorser of Buchanan's 1996 campaign. Pratt is himself a former elected official. He served as a right wing Virginia state legislator. Far from simply having made an error in judgment in attending one meeting with Klansmen and racists, he has been a key figure straddling the line and providing links between the "mainstream" right, Christian Reconstructionism, and the openly neo-nazi forces of Christian Identity and the Aryan Nations. "

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/085.html

Oh, there's no shortage of stupidity, hate and just plain ugliness on the RKBA side.

What was this thread about?

It was about the gun rights crowd's phony claim that there is no gun show loophole...so here's America's most famous gun show exhibitor, talking about gun rights and what can REALLY be found at gun shows...

"It was about the gun rights crowd's phony claim that there is no gun show loophole..."

Yeah, suuuuuuuuuuuuure we're claiming that.

"It was about the gun rights crowd's phony claim that there is no gun show loophole..."

Just that it's misnamed. Why do you keep pretending it's about gun shows, Benchley?

Nobody, slack? Who you trying to kid?

post 1: "there requirements to sell of buy a firearm at a gunshow are the same as any other place a firearm may be bought or sold."

Who are YOU trying to kid, Benchley?

"Nobody is claiming there is no gun show loophole" was what you claimed...

Uh, except post #1, and now evidently, YOU.

Just that it's mis-named.

"Nobody is claiming there is no gun show loophole" was what you claimed...

Uh, except post #1, and now evidently, YOU.

I can't help you with that, but for the benefit of others who might be reading this the original post says the gun show loophole is a fallacy. That's not the same as being a myth. But given the frequency with which you post fallacious reasoning it's not surprising you can't tell the difference.

"the original post says the gun show loophole is a fallacy. That's not the same as being a myth."
Hahahahahaha...and both statements are 100% RKBA horseshit.

Are you familiar with the concept of tone in writing?

Get back to us when you get a clue.

and I got more than a clue how much of it the RKBA crowd slings around.

that would be the RKBA crowd...

:hi:

MrBenchley evidently doesn't get it. He's too tied up in conspiracy theories.

...MrBenchley. The main part of your vocabulary consists of: pantload, hooey and (a new one) BFD. Not to mention manical laughter.

It's not a lack of intellectual ability that causes people to pretend there is "no gun show loophole," or to pretend "there's no such thing as an assault rifle" or to pretend "More guns = less crime."

It's plain old fashioned dishonesty.

Nice attempt at distraction.

trying to pimp for a corrupt industry.

Nice circular argument technique you have going there.

and an unwillingness to buy the RKBA crowd's lies and distortions of fact...

Introducing MrBenchley, Official Keeper of the One and Only True Common Sense.

:hi:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Whoever coded that function did a good job!

an attempt at truth and reality.