Guardsman guilty of illegally transferring 'machine gun' after firearm malfunctions

Yeah, I know thats world nut daily, and I know that savage took a shot at Kennedy, but this was the only article I could find about this case. There are alot of blogs that are writing about it also. If anyone can find a different source, I'd welcome it.

Additional info here:

http://redstradingpost.blogspot.com/2008/01/len-savage-duck-hunters-and-sportsman.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=507483&page=1


Its the actions of the BATF that I would like to see discussed, and these questions too:

Why go after anyone for a clearly malfunctioning non-automatic rifle?

Why go after the drill instructor, rather than the person in possession of the rifle when it malfunctioned?

Why does the BATF NOT prosecute the person in possession of the weapon in question FOR possession of a machine gun?

What is the BATF up to with all this?

Is this what the first sentence means?

It can happen to about any semi-auto rifle if its not maintained properly. I've read about stuff like this before, and I've read Len Savage's writings before; I kind of suspect that one of the reasons BATFE even prosecutes these cases is to highlight the absurdity of some of the federal gun laws. Under the letter of the law, that malfunctioning rifle is now a machine gun, and will always be a machine gun from now on.

I've been very close to this case and have spoken to Mr. Savage and Mr. Olofsen and his attorneys on this matter. Double barrel rifles and shotguns that double are now officially considered machineguns according to the BATFE in this court case. Mr. Savage forced them to admit to this absurdity and did so solidly.

One thing that should be mentioned about this case. The BATFE perjured themselves by making false claims concerning documentation that was requested in discovery. They claimed that a recall notice was forbidden because it "was a tax document". Sadly, the Judge allowed himself to be mislead by this lie resulting in Mr. Olofsens conviction.

If anyone here wants to see documentation concerning this case, visit nfaoa.org and search on US v. Olofsen. And while you are there, I'd recommend looking at the transcript of the US v. Kwan trial and compare Mr. Savages comments to the testimony of Mr. Rick Vasquez and note that ANY firearm that the BATFE can make fire full auto they consider to be a machine gun.

In US v. Kwan, the BATFE MANUFACTURED EVIDENCE! I don't care if you are a Repug or a Democrat. We should all be infuriated and demanding that the agency be punished severely and all convictions that the BATFE has gotten over the past few decades be set aside if any questionable action on the agencys part took place.

Other than making you feel tough, what practical use does it serve...shooting at chipmunks?

A Krieghof K-80, IIRC, is an over and under 12 gauge shotgun. Probably another assault weapons we need to ban.

...but you can tell by the name that it ought to be banned :silly: .

Krieghoff K-80
12-guage (.729 caliber) hunting/skeet shotgun, capacity 2 rounds.

The barrel assembly detaches, so you can quickly switch between different calibers and barrel lengths if you own extra barrels.

The exception is using it for trap, skeet or sporting clays.

Over and unders, especially the higher end ones with longer barrels like the one Ben Ezra posted, don't make for good concealed weapons for hitting the local 7 - 11.

but statistically, shotguns almost as rarely misused as rifles are.

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

You don't recognize an over and under shotgun when you see one? And, you don't know how an over and under shotgun is commonly used? Why not? Don't you think you should know something about what it is you want to ban?

:rofl:

Not that there would be any difference in bills that either would introduce.

Russert could be the referee, maybe he'd get a few "things-that-go-up" up aside his head, not that it would knock any sense into him.

easy to shoot multiple gauges with tubes or extra barrels.

that its not just black rifles that are under attack?

For years the DEA and various "multi-jurisdictional task forces" have barged right in on people who may or may not be involved with drugs, with much damage, injury and even death the result. What has also been gang-banged is the Constitution, and systematically. I have whined like an old man for years that the War on Drugs was/is the blueprint of domestic social control wherein whole portions of the Constitution could be excused, ignored or simply not followed because the "crime" involved was so heinous; the use and sale of illegal drugs.

President Bush has even pointed to the practices in the WOD as the foundation of both "Patriot" Acts.

Now, it seems, other agencies are doing the same stuff used for years in the WOD -- and the "crime" is just as reprehensible: someone who is active in the gun culture.

The wars on guns and drugs are morally-based prohibitions which cannot work in terms of their own public rationales; but the real reasons for these prohibitions is cultural hatred toward another kind of people. Lord knows it ain't about the money -- that old saw has caused so many folks to utter a money-trail phrase like a quote from the Bible; a discussion ender that fails to appreciate that the desires and pleasure of prohibitionists for control over others has melded with government agencies enough to chill out even the rudest forms of activism. And all points on the spectrum are in on this foul party.

I can't verify this from primary sources at this point, but if that's what happened, it was clearly a kangaroo trial.

........... but hate that part about a Trial by a Jury of your Peers.

If you had, you'd have noticed how the BATF has turned "innocent until proven guilty" into "innocent until properly framed".

If you have a point, you haven't made it. Felons or court supervised proclaimed mentally ill (either by jury ...at their choice or by judge) should not have guns.

Do you disagree?

you have a one track mind...this topic has nothing to do with felons and guns, it has to do with a guardsman transfering a rifle that misfired and happened to fire 3 shots with one trigger pull and being convicted of having a machine gun, even though it was only a malfunction.

I think this post affirms my belief that you really just hate gun owners and will be glad with anything that puts us in jail- legal or illegal

he said in another thread that he doesn't hate gun owners.


(but that was in THAT thread LOL!)

Let me get this right: the weapon was recalled for malfunctioning and the owner did nothing?

...the owner had replaced many of the gun's parts with new parts from a more reliable manufacturer (DPMS Panther Arms), and had had no previous experience with this sort of malfunction. This kind of error can occur in many semi-auto weapons, albeit when the weapon is heavily used, clogged with crap, and even then it happens completely unpredictably.

The BATFE also altered the test parameters to make the weapon malfunction in a specific way.

It is a well-known issue among owners of guns with free floating firing pins like the AR-15 and SKS that the pin can stick in the forward position as the bolt cycles rather than flying fore and aft under inertia if the area around the pin is dirty or clogged with debris.

When this occurs, rather than the pin flying towards the back of the bolt as the bolt flies forward chambering the new round, the pin is stuck forward protruding in the firing position. When the bolt closes on the round, the pin contacts the primer. In military spec ammunition, the primer is hard and needs a firm impact to trigger it. Commercially made ammo tends to use softer primers and as a result, they can fire as a result of this contact.

Which is exactly what the BATFE did in testing this gun. They used soft primered ammo to make it malfunction and then called it a "machine gun".

Among gun owners, this situation is called a "slamfire". The SKS is most prone to this issue. It's harder to make happen with the AR-15 but obviously not impossible.

This is a travesty of justice because the weapon was not modified by its owner to fire full-auto and there are no written testing procedures for firearms held by the BATFE FTB that does the tests. Thus, there is no way to challenge the BATFE's assertions of it being a machine gun since they make it up as they go along on a case-by-case basis. They are, quite literally, manufacturing evidence.

Now, you'd think a government agency tasked with enforcing firearms laws and regulations and when asked to make a determination in a criminal case as to the nature and makeup of a firearm, they would have a manual they could open to the the section "AR-16/M-16" and compare the weapon in their hands against the standards written down to make a determination on whether or not it was a machine gun? If you answered "Yes", you're wrong. And by the way, the people holding the gun and are tasked with testing it don't know the difference between a bolt and bolt carrier.

That is why this is a travesty of justice.

Doubt that there are enough prison cells to hold all the owners of SKS's that have slam-fired.

Must have not been a jury in this case, absent any proof of intent or otherwise I'm clueless as to how the judge could find the man guilty. In addition to the ATF, something else royally stinks here.

.........there should be product safety laws covering guns as much as any other product that endangers the public.

PS - You didn't answer the question. It couldn't be that much of a 'more reliable manufacturer' if it resulted in malfunctioning. Anyone who doesn't follow a recall as prescribed by the manufacturer is responsible for the results.

should the guy have to go to prison? If so, what do you think is an appropriate sentence?

Having been on juries before, I've come to learn it's best to hear all the facts from all the parties. I know that you may perceive that as non-responsive.... so be it.

...this really doesnt give rise to a "need" for product safety laws on guns. first off, the gun industry self-regulates itself because most gun owners buy guns based on reputation. Working in a gun store the most asked question is "would you recommend this gun" Making a cheap product only hurts themselves. second, this was a malfunction due to wear and tear probably- its a machine, machines fail no matter how well they were built. All this incident shows us (when it comes to manufacturing) that nothing is perfect and that some poor guy is now in jail because the BATFE believes no one is innocent

it has an ergonomic pistol-grip stock like high-end target rifles, hence it's immoral for us peons to own, regardless of how reliable and accurate.

BTW, this rifle was tested by BATFE and ruled perfectly safe and not malfunctioning. The agent in charge of the case then demanded a retest using special soft-primered ammunition (reportedly dangerously so) intended to force an unsafe slamfire. That's like putting wooden tires on a car and then slamming the manufacturer for making a car that doesn't brake properly. The agent(s) then apparently leaned hard on the student to testify against his instructor, and financial compensation may have been involved. If that's the case, that's a kangaroo trial.

The AR-15 has never been accused of being an unsafe design, AFAIK, and it is the most popular civilian centerfire target rifle in the United States.



The scary thing about this case is that using sufficiently defective ammunition, you could get almost any autoloading rifle to slamfire if you "test" it enough without cleaning it.

Unlike many recalls that go on the news all the time, the recall for this rifle was sent to the owners who has sent in a warranty registration card only. Like the news would issue a safety recall notice on a firearm....

Olofsen bought the rifle and didn't know that there was a problem that had been recalled. BATFE is now stating that the recall notice was "tax information" and it was disallowed in court. Sad that the BATFE had to stoop to such lower than dirt levels just to get a conviction on an innocent US citizen.

What scumbags serve in our Government.