Rescue Mexico from US Guns

From a Christian Science Monitor Editorial:

which can not be obtained in the US. Same thing with Stingers. Me thinks the Mexican government's well earned reputation for corruptions is more at play when it comes to the heavy stuff. Pistols could easily be coming from the US.

Garen Wintemute is an anti-gun jihadist, CSM knows this, and it supports their editorial line.

Lax gun laws and lax enforcement in the United States have made it easy for Mexican gunrunners to buy and transport everything from AK-47s to Stinger antiaircraft missiles, which then allows the cartels to use these high-powered weapons against rival gangs or against a military attack. More than 90 percent of the thousands of guns confiscated yearly in Mexico have been traced to US origin.

Furthermore, considering the authority they are citing, no rational person would believe it

Why the NRA supports NAFTA?

That's all.

From the article regarding the gun trade:

'Rising gun violence by drug gangs, and lately a military surge against them, have driven many to cross the border.'

Are practically banned.... Where do you get your information from

Ask them.

Gun.

Obviously my cat knows more about American gun laws then they do....


Makes you look nice and smart when you stand behind obviously incorrect information.

that's a tough call.

Believe you or the Christian Science Monitor.

I'm going to go with the Christian Science Monitor.

AK47s are considered "CLASS III" weapons...

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/stEch53.html

It has been ILLEGAL to import any for many years... Prices for AK47's tend to start in the 20,000 dollar range..

In truth, it is easier to sneak an AK47 FROM MEXICO into the US, than the other way around...

AK47's are very uncommon in America.

Drug lords in Mexico.

I blew a significant portion of your argument out of the water...

And that is the best that you can do???

The drug lords in Mexico, have nothing with you making blatantly false statement about American gun laws...

Who benefits from US gun law?

Criminals both domestic and foreign.

In DC, only the Criminals benefit....

In the rest of the nation, the criminals still benefit, but not like they do in DC, where a whole city is disarmed

The illegal intrastate gun trade is alive and well thanks to Virginia.

DC looks around at the two states bordering it and the several other states within easy driving distance and said "Hey, let's make our gun laws an order of magnitude stricter than anybody else nearby!"


Why does DC think the end result would be any different than if they decided to add a dollar tax to gasoline?

"I can't understand why everybody is buying gas from Virginia!", followed by "Damn, Virginia HAS to make their gas taxes as high as ours to stop the flood of out-of-state gasoline into DC!"

Virginia looks around at the two states bordering it and the several other states within easy driving distance and said "Hey, let's make our gun laws an order of magnitude laxer than anybody else nearby!"

I'll leave you to tell me gas is cheaper in Virginia than DC. I would know or care.

Somethings are priceless, including the public's safety.

And with the Brady Bill, gun sales nationwide became stricter due to the mandatory background check.



Republican talking point as they explain why they need to torture, to tap, store, and analyse all electronic communication, to deny accused people the access to the criminal courts and legal representation, and to throw habeas corpus by the wayside.

"If it saves one life..."

Funny how people used to be willing to sacrifice their lives for liberty and freedom.

Guns used in the commission of crimes against law abiding citizens is torture.

Funny how I'm not willing to sacrifice my life to amuse you.

And here I was thinking it was armed robbery or assault with a deadly weapon..

Armed robbery and assault are not torture?

No wonder you have no idea what you are talking about.

not in most cases.

yet another tactic of the intellectually dishonest. change definitions to suit your agenda.

........... and gun violence isn't terrorism.

:sarcasm:


Got it.

:crazy:

the intellectually dishonest change definitions to suit their agenda

you continue to do this.

if little johnny picks up daddies gun and unintentionally shoots his little brother with the gun is that "terrorism"?

of course not

if a citizen lawfully defends himself from an intruder in the home is that terrorism?

of course not. and that's true regardless of whether he uses "gun violence", "fist violence", or baseball bat violence to do so.

yes, some acts of terrorism are committed via a gun, and thus SOME instnaces of gun violence are terrorism.

just as some incidences of arson are terrorism, and some instances of knife violence are terrorism

but a means of violence, in this case - gun, is neither sufficient nor necessary for that act of violence to be terrorism

never ceases to amaze me how ideologues without intellectual integrity, regardless of where they fit on the political spectrum, will use the same tactics.

when you have no rational point to make, just change the definition of a bad word (in this case : terrorism) so as to "prove your point".

one of the most annoying thing about the internet. know-it-alls who NEVER admit when they are wrong.

he was wrong. he relied on the CSM's reference to Ak-47.

he was wrong, you proved it.

i see no acknowledgment of that.

hmmm

I'll believe the CSM over you or your gun lobby any day of the week.

Who benefits from US gun trade?

Drug lords and terrorists.

That in the face of facts, refuse to believe them...

in light of your comments above, that word describes you.

It's the fact that drug lords and terrorists benefit from the US gun trade.

when intellectually dishonest people such as above can't simply admit an error, they then change the topic. the issue was the wrongful use of the term "ak-47" which has clearly been debunked.

you both change the topic and employ an argument from authority (the CSM used the term AK-47 so they must be correct). right. the media is ALWAYS right. fascinating.

i saw the same thing several times from various news media outlets claiming that police held "m-16"'s during the WTO riots.

they didn't.

they held AR-15's, which is the civilian SEMI-auto version.

note that i wrote a LTTE to a publication that made that error. unlike you, they ACKNOWLEDGED their mistake and said the article should have referred to AR-15's and not M-16's

it's sad to note that you can't employ the same intellectual honesty.

it does give people a clue here as to your intent.

it is not to have rational discussion wherein people share ideas, learn (which often means admitting error).

it is merely to spout propaganda with no regard as to underlying truth.

that's kind of sad. unlike you, myself and others here can admit error.

that means we can learn and are open minded.

having an intellectual discussion with people who cannot admit error is a useless task. because you have already demonstrated an unwillingness to learn, to have an open mind, and to discuss.

we might as well be trying to discuss evolution with a dyed in the wool creationist.

"Relevance".

Just in case you thought anybody gave a shit about the angels you set to spinning on the point of that needle.

Now, if you happened to want to address the actual point of the article, which goes kinda like this:

More than 90 percent of the thousands of guns confiscated yearly
in Mexico have been traced to US origin.

well, you should feel entirely free to do so.


http://americas.irc-online.org/commentary/2001/0108arms.html

They may be called small arms, but they're big business. In Latin America, the problem of small arms trafficking extends from Mexico, where guns smuggled from the United States fetch prices three to five times higher on the black market than their original cost, to Colombia, currently embroiled in a long running civil conflict, to Brazil, which has one of the highest gun homicide rates in the world.

... The United States must also acknowledge its role in global arms trafficking. The United States is the largest producer of small arms in the world, with more than half of the world's producers based in the United States. Many arms traffickers buy relatively inexpensive firearms in the United States and resell them on the black market abroad because the penalties are relatively light compared with the penalties for smuggling drugs—and the profit margin is high. Arms brokers bypass regulatory norms and facilitate weapons transfers from states to non-state actors and buyers who could not otherwise obtain them.

The United States chooses to ignore the extent of this dynamic and sees any effort to address the matter as potential infringement on the rights of U.S. citizens to own firearms. At the UN conference, Bolton assured that "the United States will not join consensus on a final document that contains measures contrary to our constitutional right to keep and bear arms."

WE'RE ALL RIGHT, JACK, AND FUCK THE WHOLE LOT OF THE REST OF YOU.

The short version, of all of it.

Canada should do likewise if it sees fit.

David

Not.

What do you do for a living? Doubt we'll get an answer to that.

What I am suggesting is that if Mexico thinks that guns from the U.S. are a problem then they can withdraw from NAFTA and tighten their border security to cut down on the amount of guns from the U.S. that cross that border. I'm suggesting that Mexico and Canada should deal with their own problems instead of blaming the U.S. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth, next time make them a little more intelligent though.

David

What do you do for a living? Doubt we'll get an answer to that.

And you know why? Because it's none of your fucking business.

I can think of a few things that are none of my business to ask you, if you really want to pursue whatever irrelevant line of chat you might be building up to. I have no clue.

Perhaps you're insinuating, in your own charming way, that I benefit in some way from NAFTA. Actually, NAFTA has had virtually zero direct effect on my work, since my work is pretty much specific to Canada and since, because I am the best in Canada at what I do, I'm not remotely worried about competition from anywhere in this hemisphere, or anywhere else.


What I am suggesting is that if Mexico thinks that guns from the U.S. are a problem then they can withdraw from NAFTA and tighten their border security to cut down on the amount of guns from the U.S. that cross that border. I'm suggesting that Mexico and Canada should deal with their own problems instead of blaming the U.S.

And what I was suggesting was exactly what I said: sounds like you give a shit about the safety and security of your fellow human beings; not.

Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth, next time make them a little more intelligent though.

When the material you have to work with is such ignorant shit, that's unfortunately impossible.

Considering my line of work it's kind of essential to the job. As far as the security of Mexico it really isn't a problem that I have the capacity to help with in any way. NAFTA opened the border up to lots of illegal trafficking, we can only inspect a certain number of trucks that come into the United States and vice versa. So lots of drugs come into the United States from Mexico and, if you believe this article, then a lot of guns leave the US for Mexico. In order to do something about the problem then Mexico needs to inspect more trucks and tighten border security, in order to do that, they would probably have to withdraw from NAFTA or negotiate new terms with the other members of the agreement. I can't make this point any clearer and I don't see how any of this argument demonstrates that I don't care about people. Since I spend everyday at work trying to provide the citizens of my community the best possible medical care and fire protection that I can, regardless of their race, income or immigration status, I find in self righteous and condescending for you, who doesn't do a fraction of the work that I do with the poor and sick, to tell me that I don't care about people. You really do need to see someone about that anger problem, it seems to be getting worse.

David

Not that you know anything about either.

Women are not a minority........ except of course........ to men.

Drug lords in Mexico.

I'm going to go with the Gun Lobby.

I'm not following.

I make no such claim.

I do know they appreciate your efforts more than mine.

Lemme check my Rolodex...


Nope, not a single Mexican drug lord on there. Not even a person with a Spanish name, amigo.


And your efforts are making it easier for criminals to commit crimes and steal money, or items that can be sold for money, to buy drugs.

I suspect that the Mexican drug lords strongly support America's War on Drugs and the War on Guns because it is in their best interests to do so.

....... but then I'm betting your point is missing about as much as your rolodex.

Sorry, but if they're smuggling Stingers into Mexico, it's not from Bubba's World of Guns.

any more than we have lax speech laws

we contrast with mexico in both respects.

This may surprise you, but you cannot buy ordnance over-the-counter in the United States, nor can you buy automatic weapons.

MaryCelest

The Russian "Saiga" line..

http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_12.htm

Available in many different calibers and gauges, all based on Klashnikovs action.

"That trend is partly a result of Congress allowing the US ban on assault weapons to lapse in 2004."

What, pray tell could these alleged smugglers bring into Mexico now that they couldn't in '04?

Lines like that make the entire editorial suspect in my mind.

............. guns and drugs if not more immigrants.

Call it NAFTA for the gun lobby.

One is the black market trade in illegal weapons - the stingers and full auto assault weapons. The other is strawman purchases of legal semi-auto weapons for the Mexican drug trade. It makes it sound like people are buying the illegal weapons at the gun shows, under the eyes of the ATF.

Such a bad article could practically have been written by the gun lobby to make anti-gun activists look dumb. Admittedly, some anti-gun people ARE dumb; just as some pro-gun people are ARE gun crazies. But they are the extremes on both sides.

Like mexican gangs and criminals are going to pay in the hundreds for an Americanized SEMI-AUTO ak-knockoff, when they could just get a FULL AUTO for the same effort and less money. :sarcasm:


Ftgfn, IF you really buy this crap, I suggest you read up on the NFA registry, the fact that its closed, what it being closed means.


Your first clue that this article is CRAP, should be the mention of "Stinger antiaircraft missiles".

They don't just hand those out at gun shows or over the counter with an nics check at a gun store.

And in this case a real whopper!

We adopt the same polices and procedures to secure our souther border that Mexico has to protect their souther boarder!!


Bet that will do it!

We adopt the same polices and procedures to secure our souther border that Mexico has to protect their souther boarder!!


Bet that will do it!

which their consitution also allows for.

Unfortunately for them they have "reasonable" restrictions the kinds that effectively strip most citizens from that right.

If Mexico upheld their constitutional rights, which include the ownership of firearms for self-defense, some of this drug-war mess could be turn around.

Unfortunately, politicians are in cahoots with the bad guys, and the bad guys wouldn't want to see an armed populace.

xela

can be freely purchased in the United States?

They ARE available in Central America, though, the legacy of decades of U.S.-Soviet proxy wars. So are RPG's, which have been used in some recent drug skirmishes in Mexico as well.

Just for your information, ALL automatic weapons, rocket lauchers, etc. in the United States are VERY tightly controlled. ALL manufacture and importation of automatic weapons in the United States is limited to police/military/government use only; if you are not the government or one of its suppliers, you cannot legally get a post-1986 automatic weapon in the United States, and a pre-1986 AK will run you $15,000 and up. In Columbia, on the other hand, an automatic AK will run you probably a couple hundred USD.

Use your brain here. SHOW ME the gun stores that sell Stingers and automatic AK's...

If someone is getting them here, they are getting them from the police, military, and/or government agencies, not from the civilian gun market.

:sarcasm:

All of those Korean AK-47's that made their way into El Salvador didn't magically stay in El Salvador.

Now, if the US would just stop arming vicious dictatorships that use the US arms against their own populations ... well wouldn't the world just be a whole lot better place?

No Korean arms would have ever entered El Salvador, had the people not been desperate to rid themselves of that US-backed gang of thugs.

http://www.comunidadesegura.org/?q=en/node/32039

El Salvador’s high crime rates and violence will only be reduced by adopting measures that promote gun control and the disarmament of the civilian population. The conclusion comes from the report “Violence and Criminality: Obstacles to Development” by the Salvadorian Foundation for the Economic and Social Development (Fusades).

“It is essential to control access to weapons. El Salvador faces an enormous epidemic of violence, high crime rates and unsafe streets. All this puts democracy at great risk” states Rafael Pleitez, the project’s author and manager of the Foundation’s Social Services Sector.

For Pleitez, “the increase in criminality hinders the country’s development. It corrodes the quality of life and has a devastating effect on business, generating high security costs and highlights the government’s ineffectiveness in combating crime contributing to weakening democracy.”

http://www.comunidadesegura.org/?q=pt/node/30094

Although El Salvador averages a steady 10 homicides a day, 8 of which firearms related, totaling 1.873 deaths in the first semester of 2006, (data provided by the National Civil Police), the number of homicides committed in the municipality of San Martín has been practically halved.

With the lemma “San Martín and Ilopango alive, free from guns” the National Council of Public Security (CNSP) has been running the “Gun free towns” project in both cities with the support of the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) since June 2005.

According to official data, from November 2005 to June 2006 homicides dropped by 40.7% and crimes committed with guns fell by 29%. Before this dramatic change, San Martín ranked among the 20 most violent municipalities of El Salvador, a nation with the highest crime rates of Latin America, and where much of the violence is attributed to youth gangs.

And now the Salvadoran public overwhelmingly supports getting those arms out of circulation, i.e. out of the hands of members of the public.

Guess that'll make you happy! Now if you can just get your governments to stop installing and propping up vicious right-wing tyrannical violent régimes in other people's countries, imagine what the world might be like.

"Ressam"

But you probably have some cute rhetoric to prove your lax borders are our fault.

I thought we were talking about El Salvador.

But I give up. There's just no making sense with some people, and the jingoistic nonsense coming from you makes it plain that's the case here.

But hey, you're right. El Salvador should have done something to beef up those lax borders when the US was busy sending arms and right-wing dictatorships its way ... stupid, stupid, stupid Salvadorans.

pesky little matter of letting terrorists run around Canada trying to find a way into the US.

You were saying?

I'm hearing right-wing lies. Where could that sound be coming from?

Canadian gun laws = terrorists running loose = nothing new n/t

That isn't just new, it's ... it's ... well, I'm afraid I'm unable to characterize it at all, because it's just plain incomprehensible!

I can buy Stinger missiles and fully automatic AK-47s in Arizona at a gun show. Surely then Arizona has the highest rate of gun violence in the country. Because we all know that guns kill people, AK-47's kill people really dead and Stinger missiles kill people really, really dead and they do it all by themselves. I'm sorry to poke fun but the story is just not credible. You can't legally buy AK-47's or Stinger missiles at any gun show in the United States without a FFL Class 3 dealers license.

David

They need to clean up their own house first.

FyurFly




One suspects some sort of common genetic defect among large numbers of Guns forum posters causing these short lifespans ...

stinger missles????? last time i checked those were title 2 weapons and were very hard to get....its uninformed speculatory garbage

This violence is not caused by US guns, nor is it even drug related. It's prohibition related.

Stop the madness. End the war on drugs.

Lax gun laws and lax enforcement in the United States have made it easy for Mexican gunrunners to buy and transport everything from AK-47s to Stinger antiaircraft missiles, which then allows the cartels to use these high-powered weapons against rival gangs or against a military attack.

This sentence makes it sound like the US has lax gun laws and lax enforcement with regards to access to AK-47s and Stinger antiaircraft missiles.

Since these things are nearly impossible to obtain in the United States without extensive paperwork and expense (to the tune of ten thousand dollars), I wonder exactly what could be done to make access to AK-47s and Stinger missiles more difficult?

While it would not surprise me to hear that small arms are exported from the United States, I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there is a black market for AK-47s and Stinger missiles in the US, without some very high dollar connections. But such high-dollar arms brokering wouldn't be going through the United States, since I'm not aware of any AK-47s manufactured here in the US.

In short, if Mexico drug cartels are buying AK-47s and Stinger missiles, it's not because of US gun laws. Now standard small arms are another matter, but rest is just plain fear-mongering.