America's Shooting Gallery May 22, 2008

MO: Metro East EMT Shot While Transporting A Shooting Victim
CA: Suspect surrenders in shooting of man
NM: Man Killed In Late-Night Shooting
IL: 2 teens charged in Aurora shooting incident
AZ: Arrest made in shooting that killed man on S. Side
GA: Shooting At Augusta Super Inn
IL: Carpentersville shooting investigation continues
PA: W. Phila. man pleads guilty to shooting officer
GA: Jury: Ex-cop lied about 92-year-old's shooting
NY: NYPD Seeks Disciplinary Charges in Shooting of Groom
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Source http://gunguys.com

deceit and demagoguery.


Your post didn't even make sense. You do know that, right?

Rhetorical question. Really.

They have to respond with insults because that's all they've got.

or you would have made the simple connection. Not to worry, Reefer Madness was a laughable effort in hysteria, similar to the current crop of propoganda by antis.

An original Reefer Madness poster featured prominently in the decor of the mansion that I and 17 close friends leased and occupied starting in 1970, which would be around when I saw the flick.

Maybe you were born then, eh?

Never had much difficulty distinguishing between pot and pistols, myself, although I gather than quite a few people hereabouts seem to find it hard.

surprised that you can't disprove SteveM's correlation?

Nope.

You do have access to some sort of dictionary-like thing, no?

Perhaps you meant to say "analogy", even though you were actually referring to a lame attempt to portray one thing as being like another in some actual meaningful way. The correct term for said lame attempt is actually:

"correlation" is perfectly fine to use. In lue of whining, run for the school board and get it changed, until then just deal with it.

I won't be taking the word of someone who says "in lue" on that one.


This here comes from that 'Murrican Heritage Dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/correlation

cor·re·la·tion
n.

1. A causal, complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship, especially a structural, functional, or qualitative correspondence between two comparable entities: a correlation between drug abuse and crime.

2. Statistics The simultaneous change in value of two numerically valued random variables: the positive correlation between cigarette smoking and the incidence of lung cancer; the negative correlation between age and normal vision.

3. An act of correlating or the condition of being correlated.

Now ... the causal, complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relationship between reefer madness and ... what ... is ... what ...?

Sen. Feinstein is a virulent prohibitionist with regards both pistols and pot. Does she still have a CCW?

that assembles words at random and posts them on the internet?

Rumor has it that DiFi let her CCW expire, and had herself sworn in as a US marshal or some such thing, to avoid the elitist label being properly applied.

I hope the criminals who committed most if these acts are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

David

Several people here complain about these anecdotes. Could you please make a point?


David

:bounce:

one day Americans will look back on these day's of unfettered gun crimes, helped out by the NRA and shake their heads wondering how people could have allowed this carnage.

You seem to have people confused. Do you honestly think the only thing separating a law abiding gun owner & the criminals is "a bad day"?
How can you sit idly by while more people are killed in drunk driving "accidents" than are murdered by criminals with firearms EVERY year? Are you saying it is easier to control the criminal element than it is to keep drunks off our roads? Is the solution to prohibit law abiding gun owners their right to keep & bear arms in the hopes that it "might" deter criminal misuse of firearms?

You blame the NRA for gun violence? I suggest you blame the criminals. The majority of people who own guns do not commit crimes with them.

are in fact just a triggers pull away from becoming a criminal. Since the NRA and you law abiding citizen keep criminals well armed, what else is one to believe ?

"most gun owners are in fact just a triggers pull away from becoming a criminal."

Most drivers are just a few beers away from being criminals too.

Most people in kitchens across America are just a few stabs and slashes away from being criminals.

Most baseball and softball players are just a few swings of the bat away from being criminals.

You really need to get some new, and more importantly better propaganda.

ammunition are just a criminal intent and a triggers pull away from being criminals.

Everyone is just a felony away from being a felon.

Everyone is just a breathtaking scientific discovery away from being Nobel prize material.

Every natural born citizen over 35 is just a winning election away from being president.

Every author is just a body of amazing literary masterpieces away from being the next Shakespeare.

Everyone is just a world record away from an entry in the "Book of World Records."

I think I like this game!

The Gun board proves it.

David

Seriously, I want to know why you think that way about those of us who disagree with you.

Please re-read the post.

David

The one about you calling law abiding gun owners imminent murderers.

David

You wrote this, "Americas shooting gallery proves otherwise, so yes, most gun owners are in fact just a triggers pull away from becoming a criminal. Since the NRA and you law abiding citizen keep criminals well armed, what else is one to believe?"

This post is proof that you, a gun grabber, are a post away from being called an idiot. Any gun grabber who made such a statement would verify that they lack the mental capacity for cogent thought and deserves to be called an idiot. I think quite highly of iverglas though and wouldn't call her an idiot. She is quite intelligent and simply has a different perspective on this issue, after all reasonable people can disagree. The person who made the above statement is not reasonable though.

David

People with clean records aren't the problem; only a very small percentage of murders involves people who are noncriminals before committing the murder, though they get a disproportionate amount of press coverage.

Every life that is lost is a tragedy to those involved, whether it's buy a firearm, or car wreck.


The incidents listed above are presented without any stated purpose or frame of reference.


To add a frame of reference for discussion, I have listed some other causes of death and their average daily rate.

We haven't found the cure for cancer yet, so we should not adopt measures to reduce the risk of death by gunshot?

Maybe we should stop looking for a cure for Parkinson's. Why would we bother with that, when so many many more people die of cardiovascular disease?

You don't seem to complain about that.

David

My point is that the OP does not provide any frame of reference.

The US is a very large place with lots of people.

A list of 10 specific tragedies adds little to the debate.

By way of comparison, on the same day, 35 people died of liver damage from alcohol abuse, and 54 people died as a result of accidental falls.


In regards to your question, I think we should adopt measures to reduce the risk of death by all forms of homicide, not just gunshot.

The question is, what measures to adopt.

Some argue that restricting access to handguns will reduce homicides, but it has not been shown to work in the cities that have tried that approach in the US, such as Chicago, or DC.

-ed away. If say a ban on possesing banned weapons was 25 or 30 years with no parole, most people would obey the laws. The fact is that we just dont put enough people behind bars for a long time for breaking these safety laws, so naturally many people ignore the laws.

THIS is the best way to fix irresponsible gun ownership. Make it flat out not worth it. Stronger penalties, and less wiggle room for the guilty. Raise my taxes if you have to, to build more prisons and feed them, I don't care. Get the criminals off the streets and where they belong. 'Awe' the undecided.

So much for those root causes of crime ...

loophole everytime the public enacts a firearms safety law. They dont care who gets hurt, often with a gun that was often legally purchased and used to kill by a familiar or was stolen from an unlocked vehicle, a hunting campsite or a home that should have had a gun-safe, but didnt.

using loophole, killed by a familiar. You do know that most vehicles are locked when they are broken in to. Guns wouldn't be left in vehicles if it weren't for gun free zones where concealed carry permit holders can't legally take their weapons. So who's fault would that be?

David

Guns wouldn't be left in vehicles if it weren't for gun free zones where concealed carry permit holders can't legally take their weapons. So who's fault would that be?

You're going to have to tell us the answer, I think.

Because I can't quite imagine who it would have been who sat on those permit holders and forcibly strapped that firearm to their person against their will and told them that if they didn't take it with them when they got in their vehicle ... well, something just awful would happen to them.

I mean, it has to be the fault of someone other than themselves that they took their firearm with them when they left home, right?

or whatever vehicle they had, probably with an NRA sticker on the back-end, to brag about how "patriotic" they are by packing the latest in firearms technology available for whatever they planned to shoot ?

what is the latest in firearms technology rdenney? Bet you don't know that the semiauto pistol is about 110 years old now do you? And the most common design has not been changed since it was invented in the very early 20th century by John Browning. The last piece of truly innovative technology to be invented in the firearms world was the self-contained metallic cartridge. Every new firearm design with notable exceptions like the HK G11 rifle is basically an old design with a slightly different layout.

but what it did bring to the table that no other weapon had successfully worked out was 'caseless' ammunition. What that means is that the projectile and the primer/ignition source were both enveloped in the propellant, so that the rounds were one cohesive unit, as opposed to the ordinary method of having a brasss case that contained the primer, propellant, and projectile.

What it did was use ammunition that did away with one of the four components of ammunition, the brass casing. This was important because it reduced the weight of the rounds and also the enitre round combusted on firing, since there was no brass to remove from the rifle it would, in theory, be more reliable.

It also has a rotating chamber, so when the rounds are fed from the magazine they are fed perpendicular to the barrel, and then rotated into alignment. The projectile it flung was a very small caliber, only 4.7mm.

The rifle and round combination was never adopted by any government, but it was a very interesting concept.Another key feature of the design was its exceptionally high rate of fire when in burst mode, 2100 rounds per minute. Between that and the recoil delaying system, while firing a three round burst recoil would not be felt by the firer until after the last round of the burst was out of the barrel, so all three of the rounds had an equally high hit probability, compared to other rifles, which would tend to send rounds after the first high and right or left. If the G11 was being fired in select fire mode its rate of fire was reduced to 400 rounds per minute. Without caseless ammunition the high rate of fire during burst mode would not have been possible. It was designed during the 1970s, and if there is any gun I would like to have a working copy of, it would have to be the G11, or possibly one of the two or three surviving original P-08 Lugers in .45 ACP. Really neat history in those weapons.

a great amount of resources to get production of the new type of ammunition up and running, plus the U.S. and NATO had just standardized on the 5.56x45mm a short while before, and I'm guessing the rifle was probably quite expensive. I don't believe the U.S. military sends its brass in for reloading, but we certainly do a good job policing it up off the firing line.

Plus the round itself was an extension of the small caliber high velocity concept which caused us to switch from the 7.62x51 NATO, or .308 Winchester, to the 5.56x45 NATO, based of off and almost identical to the .223 Remington. The idea is that a smaller caliber rifle uses lighter ammunition and so each soldier can carry a larger number of rounds while simultaneously reducing overall weight on the soldier (really just enabling the soldier to carry more gear in the space/weight that used to be rounds). It also makes training new soldiers easier, since the smaller caliber rounds recoil less and so soldiers are less likely to develop bad habits such as flinching in anticipation of firing. It is a very real phenomenon, when I am firing my revolver I have definitely dropped the hammer on an empty chamber and flinched badly before.

performing very well in urban combat firefights. The artical went on to say that an older NATO caliber was much more effective against the insurgents. In regards to the caseless ammo it occurs to me that it would make it much more difficult for police to match a gun to the shooter with no case to examine wouldnt it ?

is the 7.62x51mm, also known as the .308 Winchester, a very popular hunting and competition round. It is still in use in the M240-series general purpose machine gun, the M14 Designated Marksman Rifle, in the SCAR-Heavy rifle which is being fielded by some special forces units, and some other marksman rifles and machine guns. It is significantly more powerful than the 5.56x45mm used in the M16 series rifles, the M4 carbine (an M16 with a telescoping stock and 14.5" barrel), and the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon. the "power" of a round is most easily expressed in its kinetic energy numbers, with the 7.62 having more than twice the kinetic energy of the 5.56.

The biggest stopping power problem of the 5.56 is that we are mostly using the M855 ball round, which was developed for the 249 and has an unfortunate habit of passing through and through human combatants, instead of yawing and fragmenting into two pieces like its lighter predecessor the M193 ball and its heavier (hopefully its replacement) MK 262 OTM. The concept behind the move to the 5.56mm was that a small caliber round moving at a high velocity would cause a nasty enough wound that multiple combatants would be removed from the fight, since we planned on using them against another organized force which would not abandon its wounded, where a more powerful round that killed the target would only remove that one combatant from the fight. The object of war (organized war anyway) is to reduce and eliminate the enemys ability to continue waging war. thinking like that, 1xwounded+1-2xmedics/fellow soldiers>1xdead soldier. the 55 grain M193 ball tumbled and fragmented inside the shallow human body quite well, and so caused significant injuries. the 77 grain Sierra open tipped match bullet that the 262 round uses breaks up very well even at a relatively low velocity. This is the round I feel we should standardize on, but it may not ever happen, because what we've got now is working enough. not best, but enough.

I think if a weapon using caseless ammo were used in a crime, the odd caliber bullet used by the only functional caseless round that exists right now would be sort of a giveaway. If someone were using it indoors or at short range and fired many rounds the police would probably be quite baffled by the lack of casings, especially if the shooter did not have time to sweep the crime scene. If it were used from a distance in a sniper-style attack then they would probably just assume that whoever fired the shots just picked up the casings. But the identity of the weapon would be quite easy to figure out, and after they figured out what the weapon was then they would have a very narrow pool of potential shooters.



If you mean in the future, if caseless ammunition becomes the next big thing or at least common enough to ever be used in a crime, well, I don't know. And I wouldn't trust most police agencies to properly match a weapon to a crime based solely on case markings anyway, since many firearms really chew up their brass, and the patterns tend to show what design of extractor, ejector, and firing pin was used more than anything else.

too much of a niche caliber, even though the weapon itself had many features that made it worthwhile. It could have been an excellent weapon, but it was made during the cold war and there were other priorities, it must not have impressed the right people enough to convince them it brought anything really new to the table they weren't getting from the rifles we already had.

i wonder how the guy who pointed a gun at me friday got it from....

That will save almost 5 times the lives that banning guns will.

David

14,000 dead daily, wrecks a lot more families and costs a tremendous amount more medically than gunshot deaths/injuries combined.

Don't and won't see the uproar on that though.

I wonder whether that could be because a thread engaging in such uproar in the Guns forum of DU would be properly removed to another home.


I have to deduce that the fact that some people are unable to hold two thoughts at once leads them to believe that other people are equally handicapped ...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

at least I'm not totally obsessed.

You know, there are places on the internet where you can express your adoration of moi much more freely than here. Aren't you acquainted with Oleg, f'r instance?

"I wonder whether that could be because a thread engaging in such uproar in the Guns forum of DU would be properly removed to another home."


A nother home right next to the non-firearm-related discussions of Katrina, I'll just bet.

That caused you dreadful distress, didn't it? Will you recover?

Here. For you.

Where I'm at, smoking was outlawed in all workplaces (i.e. including all bars and restaurants) quite a time ago. I'm a smoker. I support the law 100%. No worker should be exposed to unsafe working conditions. No worker should have to choose between unsafe working conditions and unemployment.

Transferring tobacco products to people under the legal age for purchasing tobacco products should be a criminal offence.

No advertising of any tobacco product should be permitted in any medium; this includes publicity derived from sponsorships of sports or cultural events by tobacco manufacturers/distributors.

Anything else you'd like?


A tale is told about back when smoking was first banned in fed govt offices. Canada's capital is a coldish kind of place in winter, and a couple of decades ago there was a practice among young women with civil service clerical jobs that paid not hugely well, but better than private sector, of spending their first paycheques on big fur coats.

One day, a visiting diplomat was taken on a tour of the city, and the trip through the downtown area happened to coincide with morning coffee break. Huddled outside every office building entrance there were a dozen or so young women in fur coats puffing on cigarettes.

"My goodness," said the visiting diplomat. "They start early here, don't they?"

Uncontrolled laughter a'plenty though.

but that didn't work so well.

than be killed by a gun.

(The data above does not clarify whether the suicide figures include or exclude suicides with guns.)