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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:42 AM
Original message
America’s Core Value
"All men are created equal"--those immortal words encapsulate the core of America's ideal. Imperfectly realized, it is nevertheless the foundation of America's greatness. Yes it took time, and far too much of it, before blacks and Native Americans and women and Asians were fully recognized.

The Fourteenth Amendment brought home the promise of the Declaration, in theory at least, with its own immortal phrase--"equal protection of the laws." And it is here, at America's core value, that gun control strikes.

Status is the issue, not danger. The idea that certain people can have the protection of arms because of their responsibilities, wealth, influence, or fame is not only wrong--some perfectly ordinary people are stalked and endangered as much as the average hypocritical anti-gun politician, for instance--it's unAmerican. Make that anti-American.

(Please ignore the numbers and somewhat jacked punctuation. The numbers are footnotes from the original text and the weird punctuation (most of it anyway) is due to copying from the PDF. The source link is the last thing on the page.)


America’s Core Value

A monstrous principle animates gun control. Unspoken and unspeakable, it alone fits the facts. Simply put,
the people‟s servants have judged their masters and found them wanting—not in skill or knowledge, but in
basic human worth. Gun control‟s self-evident truth is that all people are not created equal.

Once you accept its premise, gun control makes sense. Special people—the Elite—are entitled to special
treatment, along with those who serve them.

Take Dick Heller, of the Heller case, for example. He carried a gun daily as a security guard for the
Supreme Court Annex. Those who imagine the purpose of gun control to be keeping guns from the unfit
will have difficulty explaining the rapid deterioration of his skills on his commute. By the time he arrived
home each evening he could not possess a functional gun—lest he shoot himself.

When we recall his servant role, however, Heller‟s limitation made sense. With no inherent right to self-defense,
his fitness to bear arms was rooted in his job. Off duty, he no longer served the Judicial Elite.

Rosie O'Donnell, a champion of gun control, said in 1999 that anyone who owned a gun should be
imprisoned.55 To those who see gun control as an effort to keep guns from civilians, it is hard to justify her
allowing a would-be “criminal”—a man applying to carry a gun—to protect her son in 2000.56
The initiated, however, see no hypocrisy. Rosie and her children are Socially Elite—perfectly entitled to
the protection of arms.57

Bloomberg's confusion about carrying guns also makes sense. His armed detail protects the Political Elite;
the retired police officer he was talking about had no higher purpose than self-defense. Why would he, with
so meager an excuse, carry a gun? After all, “guns kill people.”

Katrina momentarily peeled back the veil on Financial Elitism. In the horrific circumstances following the
storm, police deserted their posts. Some were filmed apparently looting in uniform.58 The government took
decisive action:

At the orders of New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, the New Orleans Police, the National
Guard, the Oklahoma National Guard, and U.S. Marshals have begun breaking into
homes at gunpoint, confiscating their lawfully-owned firearms, and evicting the residents.

“No one is allowed to be armed. We're going to take all the guns,” says P. Edwin
Compass III, the superintendent of police.59


Mr. Compass, the police superintendent, said that after a week of near anarchy in the city,
no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms
of any kind. “Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons,” he said. 60


Under color of law, officials took personal property at gunpoint—a clear violation of the Fourth
Amendment. Louisiana‟s Constitution received similar contempt:

Louisiana statutory law does allow some restrictions on firearms during extraordinary
conditions. One statute says that after the Governor proclaims a state of emergency (as
Governor Blanco has done), “the chief law enforcement officer of the political
subdivision affected by the proclamation may...promulgate orders...regulating and
controlling the possession, storage, display, sale, transport and use of firearms, other
dangerous weapons and ammunition.” But the statute does not, and could not, supersede
the Louisiana Constitution, which declares that “The right of each citizen to keep and
bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to
prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.”

The power of “regulating and controlling” is not the same as the power of “prohibiting
and controlling.” The emergency statute actually draws this distinction in its language,
which refers to “prohibiting” price-gouging, sale of alcohol, and curfew violations, but
only to “regulating and controlling” firearms. Accordingly, the police superintendent's
order “prohibiting” firearms possession is beyond his lawful authority. It is an illegal
order.61


From the gun control perspective, ordinary people should be disarmed in emergencies. So Mayor Nagin—
who, “incoherent and weeping,” “fled to Baton Rouge”—courageously defied the highest legal authority.62
He was not so bold, however, as to defy his fellow Elite:

That order apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards
whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property. The
guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly
carrying M-16s and other assault rifles.

Mr. Compass said that he was aware of the private guards but that the police had no plans
to make them give up their weapons. 63


If you are rich and fear for you property, your employees may carry fully automatic (true) assault weapons;
your property rights will be respected. If you are “average” and you fear that roving gangs may want to
entertain themselves with your wife and children, you are out of luck. The Constitutions, federal and state,
are impotent. This is an emergency!

In response to these outrages, Congress, prodded by the “gun lobby”, passed the Vitter amendment

To prohibit the confiscation of a firearm during an emergency or major disaster if the
possession of such firearm is not prohibited under Federal or State law.64


Yet modest as it was, the amendment drew opposition from anti-gun senators Clinton, Schumer, Boxer, and
Feinstein.65

Their votes illustrate gun control‟s contempt for the Bill of Rights—all of it. After all, why worry about
leaving boot prints on the Fourth Amendment on your way to trample the Second?

New Orleans may have been an extreme case, but Financial Elitism is widespread. Recall that even the
District permits defense of one‟s business. Financial Elitism is institutionalized In New York as well:

The names of the two types of non-occupational carry licenses (”Carry Business License”
and “Limited Carry Business License”) and comments made by Lieutenant McCormack,
a licensing officer in the New York City Police Department, reflect a general
understanding amongst New York City government officials that “proper cause” refers
only to business needs.…

A general understanding that “proper cause” refers only to business need, however, may
be a result of the application's failure to state that non- business needs will be considered.
Indeed, Lieutenant McCormack could not recall one applicant in his fifteen years with
the police department whose stated need referred to the applicant being a victim of
domestic violence. He indicated that if he did receive such an applicant he would not
know how to handle the matter, but supposed that he would probably meet with a higher
authority, such as the Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters, to discuss the situation.
Lieutenant McCormack further commented that the police department does not issue a
carry license because an applicant's life has been threatened or that he has been beaten,
because those situations “happen everyday.” Normally, if a carry license is given to a
person because of danger, the order to do so comes from a “higher source” or “other
agency.”66


Like all Americans, New Yorkers have a right to “keep and carry arms wherever they <go>.” Yet in fifteen
years, the lieutenant met no applicant who dared hope she could carry a gun to protect her life, her children,
or her physical integrity.

And no wonder. New York doesn‟t allow carry for “everyday” problems—death threats, assaults, and one
would imagine rapes, kidnappings, and torture. Danger-based justifications must come from “a higher
source” or “other agency.” Now who would “a higher source” or “other agency” pull strings for?

Gun control‟s non-equality principle strikes at America‟s core value—the political equality of all people—
returning us to primitive, pre-Enlightenment thinking. It tells the single woman who dares oppose drugs,
the father protecting his family in disaster, the old lady who lives alone—in short, the non-Elite—that they
have no right to the means of self-defense.

Technically, it doesn‟t say that they have no right to life, liberty, or physical integrity, but the difference is
academic. Faced with harsh realities, they have a civic duty to be killed, raped, kidnapped, or have their
families abused in front of them. This is preferable, in the eyes of the Elite, to having the rabble armed.

People who have such “civic duties” cannot be said to live in a free country. Remember the Second
Amendment‟s “free State”? UCLA Professor Eugene Volokh‟s research shows it was a term of art.67 “Free
State” meant “free country”—not the freedom of Vermont or Nebraska from federal encroachment.

Gun control destroys the free State from the inside, too.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Telling comments by the Lieutenant
"Lieutenant McCormack further commented that the police department does not issue a
carry license because an applicant's life has been threatened or that he has been beaten,
because those situations “happen everyday.” "


Interesting that "danger" does not include the threat of murder or rape, but the threat of losing fifty thousand dollars or a promotion opportunity for the licensing official is a perfectly good reason to issue a permit.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. When will you understand
if your ordinary plebeian life and family were worth protecting, you'd be rich and famous enough to hire it done. Or "important" enough to have a security detail provided at public expense.

The hypocrisy of Congressional gun control proponents extends well beyond Senator Schumer's and Sen Feinstein's concealed carry permits. Senator Thomas J. Dodd, author of the Gun Control Act of 1968, had a Colt Automatic fall out of his pocket in the Senate chamber 40 some years ago. Nice to know there are different rules for "me than thee!"

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. nuh uh

You have not been reading the memos.

Amurikka's core value is ......

FREEEEEEEEEEDUUUUUMB.


Equality is what the rest of the world, including the rest of us here in America, gives a genuine shit about.

Hell, if you people actually did give a shit about equal protection of the laws ... well, you'd be the ones who recognize same-sex marriage, just for starters, wouldncha?

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hell, who is "you people"? You talking to me, Boreal?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. whoah

Weird board glitch there, eh?

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. You're on the board, I guess it was a glitch. (nt)
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. We get it. You don't like the U.S.
Amurikka's core value is ......

FREEEEEEEEEEDUUUUUMB.


Who are you intending to mock? And why are you cribbing your posts from a high school freshman who just read his first Chomsky excerpt?


Equality is what the rest of the world, including the rest of us here in America, gives a genuine shit about.


Sure it is. The world outside the borders of the U.S. is nothing if not an egalitarian paradise in which every man, woman, and child is valued, regardless of race, gender, orientation or creed. As soon as you step outside the borders of the U.S., poor people are treated with respect, gay people may live openly without fear, and the elderly are viewed as source of wisdom, not a source of vitamins to be harvested in the great AARP mines of Florida. Everything sure is better everywhere else in every way. China. India. Brazil. Russia. Mexico. Indonesia. The vast majority of nations clearly give a genuine shit about equality, so why can't the U.S.!? Its so...frustrating.


you'd be the ones who recognize same-sex marriage, just for starters, wouldncha?


And it's a fair bet that the vast majority of people on DU do want same-sex marriages recognized, and there are more than a few that are putting their energies into making it happen. So why trot out your holier-than-thou attitude in one of the few venues in which that is the case?

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. you must be proud

China. India. Brazil. Russia. Mexico. Indonesia.

To be so much better than those places. Wot an accomplishment, eh?


And it's a fair bet that the vast majority of people on DU do want same-sex marriages recognized, and there are more than a few that are putting their energies into making it happen. So why trot out your holier-than-thou attitude in one of the few venues in which that is the case?

Gosh. I wonder whether it was because I was responding to a post about the core value of America, and not to a majority of people on DU?

Myths die hard. But killing them might just be the first step on the road to, oh, equality.



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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Actually, I often am.
I *am* quite often happy that I was lucky enough to be born in a nation in which most citizens enjoy civil liberties and economic prosperity to an extent greater than most other people on the planet today, and to an extent greater than 99% of people that have ever lived on this planet. That's not a small thing, your pithy "Amurikka" posts notwithstanding.

I have no problem recognizing the faults of the U.S., but to pretend that the U.S. is lagging behing the "rest of the world" in embracing the principle of equality is just plain silly.


Myths die hard. But killing them might just be the first step on the road to, oh, equality.


So we should strive for equality by mocking those that argue that equal protection under the law is and should be a core value. Got it.


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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. yeah, eh?
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 01:21 PM by iverglas

to pretend that the U.S. is lagging behing the "rest of the world" in embracing the principle of equality is just plain silly.

Kinda like pretending that anybody is talking about Mali and Uzbekistan when they say that.


So we should strive for equality by mocking those that argue that equal protection under the law is and should be a core value. Got it.

As you like it. Get your stuff at PhilosophyMart, do you? Don't know where else that "mocking those that argue that equal protection under the law SHOULD BE a core value" might have come from. Not moi, as we all know.

Here's another though. (edit - that's "thought")

Investigate the difference between equality before the law ("equal protection of the laws") and equality under the law (a novel thing we've been working on out here for a couple of decades).

(Oh, and don't believe wiki when it implies they're the same thing.)

Another way of putting that is equal protection of the law and equal benefit of the law, to help in your study.

As we put it here:
Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.




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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Own your words, Iverglas.
Kinda like pretending that anybody is talking about Mali and Uzbekistan when they say that.

You said: Equality is what the rest of the world, including the rest of us here in America, gives a genuine shit about.

If you don't like your statements to be interpreted as sophistry, I suggest you don't make broad generalizations that can't stand up to a moment's scrutiny. Or, alternatively, if you must make broad generalizations that can't stand up to a moment's scrutiny, at least have the intellectual honesty to admit it when your rhetoric gets ahead of your logic.

Another way of putting that is equal protection of the law and equal benefit of the law, to help in your study.

Ohhh, that's what this is about. Iverglas, as much fun as it would be to change the subject to your little pet issue and disappear down a rabbit hole of dissecting the philosophical ramifications of "before" and "under," it's just not going to happen. Maybe someone that cares more* about the Canadian Charter would be more fun to play with on this, ok?

* at all
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Gladly! Now you stop engaging in false representations of my words.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 01:43 PM by iverglas

Deal?

Here's what I said:

Equality is what the rest of the world, including the rest of us here in America, gives a genuine shit about.

And here's what you said in "reply":

Sure it is. The world outside the borders of the U.S. is nothing if not an egalitarian paradise in which every man, woman, and child is valued, regardless of race, gender, orientation or creed. As soon as you step outside the borders of the U.S., poor people are treated with respect, gay people may live openly without fear, and the elderly are viewed as source of wisdom, not a source of vitamins to be harvested in the great AARP mines of Florida. Everything sure is better everywhere else in every way. China. India. Brazil. Russia. Mexico. Indonesia. The vast majority of nations clearly give a genuine shit about equality, so why can't the U.S.!? Its so...frustrating.

Did I say that the rest of the world was an egalitarian paradise? Or did I say that the rest of the world GIVES A SHIT about equality?

Did I say that every man, woman and child is valued? Or did I say that the rest of the world GIVES A SHIT about equality?

Did I say that poor people are treated with respect, gay people may live openly without fear, and the elderly are viewed as a source of wisdom? Or did I say that the rest of the world GIVES A SHIT about equality?

Did I say that everything is better everywhere else in every way? Or did I say that the rest of the world GIVES A SHIT about equality?

Was I talking about the governments of any country or countries, or the conditions in those countries? Or did I say that the rest of the world GIVES A SHIT about equality?


Do you think that in the places in the world that are not egalitarian paradises, the PEOPLE give a shit about equality?

Do you not think that poor people, gay people and the elderly who do not enjoy equality give a shit about equality?

Do you not think that anywhere in the world where equality is not honoured, the PEOPLE give a shit about equality?


Sometimes, when people give a shit about something and are fortunate enough to be able to elect governments that act on the people's core values, the conditions in a country will reflect their core values -- never perfectly, to date, and constant improvement will be a criterion in assessing the people's own commitment to those values. You may take Canada as a case in point if you wish. Same-sex marriage was not recognized a decade ago; there were criminal-law restrictions on abortion two decades ago; minority language communities and First Nations did have adequate protection for their cultures; etc. Nirvana has not been achieved, but the people's commitment to the core value of equality is reflected in the progress being made toward that ideal.

The people in the USofA have every opportunity to elect governments that share the core value of equality, if that is the people's core value. I'm not seeing it happening.


So. Would you like to admit that you know perfectly well that I was not talking about any paradises on earth, I was talking about the CORE VALUES of PEOPLE outside the USofA? And that you know perfectly well that your references to CONDITIONS within the boundaries of any country in the world you might like to name have nothing to do with what I was talking about?

And that my point was that people outside the USofA actually DO value equality, and DO strive to have it honoured as a core value of their societies, and DO adopt policies that promote equality where they have the opportunity to do that, and do seek to make it possible for the disadvantaged and disrespected and mistreated to be treated equally BEFORE and UNDER the law, and to have the equal PROTECTION and BENEFIT of the law?

And just maybe my point was that our little friend here doesn't actually give a shit about equality himself, just as a whole bleeding load of his fellow countrypeople don't actually give a shit about equality. D'you think?


Now here's what I'd like to know.

I'd like to know when you might be getting ready to put that grey matter of yours to work to address/discuss something somebody actually says, instead of putting the great effort you obviously devote to the task into pretending somebody said something s/he never said, and merrily setting about demonstrating, to the assembled ignorant masses, what a fool s/he is for saying what s/he didn't say.



typos fixed
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You're a treasure, Iverglas.
In an uncertain world, I'm glad to see some things don't change.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. and besides that

she doesn't care what you have a clue about!

Easy as it would be to summarize that in 25 words or less anyhow.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
48. Her level best
As I have demonstrated time and again in this board, "gun control" is permeated with misinformation, misdirection, deception, and outright lies. If I may quote myself,

Gun control always was a Frankensteinian construct—a fabrication here, a logical fallacy there, an
unwarranted inference over there—barely held together by prejudice, defiance and elitism. The pitiful
creature lurched through its artificial life, ever vulnerable to collisions with truth.

The Supreme Court seems poised to grant the monster peace...


That was before Heller

Unfortunately, while the Court has begun to do its duty, gun control--like some of its adherents--tenaciously clings to the failed and desperate tactics of the past.

Our resident constitutional scholar is a case in point. Unwilling to squarely face the reality of gun control, iverglas offered this penetrating analysis:

You have not been reading the memos.

Amurikka's core value is ......

FREEEEEEEEEEDUUUUUMB.


Of course she is free to despise America and Americans. She is free to spout nonsense and direct attention away from the inequities pointed out in the OP.

But false representations are supposed to be off limits:

Now you stop engaging in false representations of my words.


My, my, it's an outrage!

And yet, in the selfsame post:

And just maybe my point was that our little friend here doesn't actually give a shit about equality himself,


She complains about "false" representations of her words, but she doesn't mind making up false allegations about another DUer out of her own twisted imagination--with no words at all to support her fantasies.

This shows amazing self-centeredness. She's had trouble with this before, even asking for help to understand clueless self-centeredness. It's all very sad. But don't pity her too quickly. Remember she despises America's sovereign decision to respect the right to arms.

There's another point you shouldn't miss--iverglas is doing her level best.

If you advocate stripping people of their rights, you can hardly do it openly and use principled, decent methods. Read the history. Even competent legal authorities were forced into using lies, false character attacks, and laughable logic to support gun control. If intelligent, knowledgeable people were thus reduced, what can we expect from iverglas?

So don't think too harshly of her. She's doing her level best.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. I bow to your skillz.
You rock.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. hey, that sure beats saying anything

that makes sense or is the truth!

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I'm sure.
hey, that sure beats saying anything that makes sense or is the truth!

I'm sure it made sense to Raskolnik, and that's all that matters to me, since that's who I was speaking to.

And since I posted an opinion, truth or non-truth really has no bearing.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Equality, great, so you agree that people should be able to protect themselves.
Since some people can be protected by firearms, Senator Fienstein and Ms. Odonnell for example, then equality should mean that us common folk should be afforded those same protections. It would be to costly for the government to hire people bodyguards so it seems that private handgun ownership is a reasonable compromise.

David
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. see?

Some people at DU don't even know what "equality" means.

I'll bet you want a limo and $100,000 a year, too. And surely equality means that you should have them right now.


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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'll take the $100,000 you can keep the limo.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. The legal scholar strikes again.
Equality doesn't mean everyone earns the same salary. A kindergarten degree suffices to know that.

But salary is earned; human rights are not.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms" is not a perk for special jobs, special status, or special connections.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Wow, she looks better than I imagined...
not that that's saying much.

But I always thought bozo was... Oh never mind.

In response to this:

Fire_Medic_Dave Tue Sep-23-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #2

8. Equality, great, so you agree that people should be able to protect themselves.Since some people can be protected by firearms, Senator Fienstein and Ms. Odonnell for example, then equality should mean that us common folk should be afforded those same protections. It would be to costly for the government to hire people bodyguards so it seems that private handgun ownership is a reasonable compromise.


here's what our resident constitutional scholar said:

Some people at DU don't even know what "equality" means.

I'll bet you want a limo and $100,000 a year, too. And surely equality means that you should have them right now.


The plain implication is that expecting to enjoy private handgun ownership for armed personal protection is as unreasonable as expecting to get $100,000 a year and a limo "right now" as a matter of "equality." Owning a handgun is a right, however, as is personal self-protection with arms. Read Heller.

Now one way to get $100,000 a year is to earn it. (Others are to win the lottery, inherit it, choose one's parents wisely, or be awarded it in a legal settlement.) Basically, no one is entitled to it who hasn't earned it (with limited exceptions).

A constitutional right is exactly opposite--all are entitled to it who haven't forfeited it (with limited exceptions). The "scholarship" of iverglas is notable in that it has problems with both of these realities. Apparently in some alternate universe, it is perfectly reasonable that violent felons should retain their gun rights while we simultaneously accept the minimization of innocent people's gun rights. And all in order to harmonize with the sentiments of those who despise America.

Hey, I know. We'll call it "equal protection of the laws"--iverglas style. Yeah, that's the ticket.

:rofl:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. one of my favourite books as a kid

was called Half Magic, by a scathingly clever fellow in the US named Edward Eager.



The kids wished that Carrie Chapman Cat (get it?) could talk -- and she could half talk!

Just like reading 007's representations of things I say.

Apparently in some alternate universe, it is perfectly reasonable that violent felons should retain their gun rights while we simultaneously accept the minimization of innocent people's gun rights.

Apparently in 007's universe, it is acceptable to speak half truths, and thus wholly misrepresent.

Actually, I'm not sure whether non-sense can accurately be described as half-truth, but whatever.

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Maybe she meant
that the 'elite' would be denied the same things you and I are denied. Equal protection under the laws.

True equality is a pretty rare thing, actually. On certain individual topics, it exists, but as a complete package, it's so very rare, and the US does not have it, despite how much we talk about it.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Who does have it?
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. I don't think so
Or she wouldn't keep telling us we are jealous of the elite, and that obviously someone like a congresswoman needs armed security while everyone else needs to get fucked and be happy about it.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I don't think she said that.
And where she lives, that is, to the best of my understanding, not the case.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Not that exactly
But the sentiment is there. In the Feinstein thread she has said that other posters are experiencing class envy, and that someone with a job like congressional delegate (or mayor or whatever other position someone happens to be in) clearly needs armed protection while an everyday person does not.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I can't find this.
"congressional delegate (or mayor or whatever other position someone happens to be in) clearly needs armed protection while an everyday person does not."

Post link?
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Here we go
"Someone else actually IS a member of the élite -- is elected to one very important and responsible position after another -- and you all just can't stand it.

The idea that someone else might have a whole lot more reason to fear assassination and feel a need to do something to avert it ... given that one of the offices she held was vacated by the murder of the person who previously held it, in particular ... nope, that's just not on. You're all just as important as she is.

The damned thing is: you all are not.

But no. It just can't be that some people actually are élite enough to attract enemies and nutbars who want to do them harm. That would mean that those people were more important than you all, and you all just coudn't stand to have that idea in your heads."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=186502&mesg_id=186706

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. well would ya lookie there

You asserted that I said:

someone with a job like congressional delegate (or mayor or whatever other position someone happens to be in) clearly needs armed protection while an everyday person does not.

and when pressed, you come up with me saying:
Someone else actually IS a member of the élite -- is elected to one very important and responsible position after another -- and you all just can't stand it.

The idea that someone else might have a whole lot more reason to fear assassination and feel a need to do something to avert it ... given that one of the offices she held was vacated by the murder of the person who previously held it, in particular ... nope, that's just not on. You're all just as important as she is.

The damned thing is: you all are not.

But no. It just can't be that some people actually are élite enough to attract enemies and nutbars who want to do them harm. That would mean that those people were more important than you all, and you all just coudn't stand to have that idea in your heads.

Isn't it just amusing how I did not say what you asserted I had said?

Huh. Will wonders never cease?


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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I guess he should have just pointed out that you think "important" people have more rights.
Is that the point you were trying to make?

David
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Dave got it
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. If only we knew what "it" poor Dave has got
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. Prime examples of corporatism
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 12:43 PM by gorfle
If you've got enough money you can hire people with guns to do your dirty work for you.

The common man? Screw him. He's too fucking stupid to be trusted with this own defense anyway.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. if you don't like it


If you've got enough money you can hire people with guns to do your dirty work for you.

Do something the hell about it.

Sure ain't that way where I'm at.

Whoah, look what I can get in Calgary ...

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-jobs-driver-security-PERSONAL-SECURITY-W0QQAdIdZ72494162

I sincerely doubt that those bozos carry firearms.

In another province (just taking what's easily found -- firearms permits are issued under federal law, the provinces have jurisdiction over security guard service activities), we find this:

http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/S/07030_01.htm
Security Services Act, Statutes of British Columbia 2007, Chapter 30 (emphases mine)
Carrying of firearms prohibited

26 (1) Subject to subsection (2), a person licensed under this Act must not carry a firearm in the course of security business or employment or while engaged in any security work.

(2) Subject to the regulations, the registrar may permit an individual engaged in security work as an armoured car guard service to carry, while engaged in that security work, a firearm of the type the registrar specifies, if the registrar is satisfied that
(a) the individual
(i) is competent in using the firearm, and
(ii) holds all licences and permits required by law in relation to that firearm, and
(b) the firearm is registered
(i) under the Firearms Act (Canada) and the Criminal Code, and
(ii) in the name of the security business through which the individual is engaged in the security work.

Prohibited employment and engagement

27 A business entity that does not hold a security business licence must not employ or engage an individual to perform any kind of security work unless
(a) the individual has a valid security worker licence for that kind of security work,

(b) the individual is exempt by regulation from the requirement to hold a security worker licence,

(c) the registrar has determined under section 2 (c) that the security work in which the individual is engaged is incidental to the individual’s primary work, or

(d) the registrar has granted the individual an exemption under section 10.

(I would point out that armoured car workers are especially vulnerable to harm because of their occupation -- they may carry firearms not to protect the money, but to protect themselves against people who would harm them in order to get the money. And anybody who doesn't think that moving money around the streets is a socially necessary function should think a little harder next time s/he is standing in front of a bank machine punching the buttons.)


I dunno. Maybe somebody was thinking that *I* actually advocate rich people being able to hire people with guns to protect them ... or carry guns around themselves, for that matter.

*I* don't. *I* just think that the hubris of anyone whining about the firearm permit obtained by a high-profile public office holder whose predecessor was (yes) assassinated 'cause s/he wants one too, and s/he is just as important as said high-profile public office holder whose predecessor was (yes) assassinated, is, well, notable.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Off duty police?
One of the "work arounds" employed by businesses in some jurisdictions is to hire off duty police officers as security personnel as they often come with arrest powers and the state's authority to be armed. The specifics of which police powers extend over which jurisdictions for individual officers vary considerably among the states.

For example, Blackwater, which famously patrolled New Orleans after Katrina was "compiling a list of qualified security personnel for possible deployment into areas affected by Hurricane Gustav," Applicants were to be US citizens for a contract period to be determined,

They were looking for current sworn law enforcement officers, with "arrest powers" and "armed status (must indicate Armed and/or Semi Auto. Revolver only not accepted)." The firm was also looking for "current/active/licensed/registered armed security officer(s)," but only from the following states: OR, WA, CA, NV, NM, AZ, TX, FL, GA, SC, NC, VA, MD, IL, OK."

Does a similar situation exist in Canada? Does the mall hire an off-duty constable who can arrest and not merely detain a shoplifter, for instance?








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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. nope

Really.

All the inequality you are familiar with just doesn't exist outside your borders in comparable places.

Off-duty police in Canada (and the UK, and I am sure the rest of Europe, and Australia and New Zealand ...) DO NOT have the authority to carry firearms. Let the hell alone when they are engaged in private employment. Of a type that they are generally not allowed to engage in anyhow.

No Blackwater here. No "arrest powers" in anyone other than those powers given by Criminal Code rules governing arrest by any non-peace officer.

In fact, interestingly, the BC legislation I quoted previously says:

http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/S/07030_01.htm
Refusal of security worker licences

4 (1) The registrar may refuse to issue or renew a security worker licence if any of the following apply:

... (f) the applicant is a peace officer.

Refusal of security business licences

15 (1) The registrar may refuse to issue or renew a security business licence if any of the following apply:

... (f) the applicant is a peace officer.


Ontario appears to permit private employment:

http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/sta/p-15/20080821/whole.html
Restrictions on secondary activities

49. (1) A member of a police force shall not engage in any activity,

(a) that interferes with or influences adversely the performance of his or her duties as a member of a police force, or is likely to do so;
(b) that places him or her in a position of conflict of interest, or is likely to do so;
(c) that would otherwise constitute full-time employment for another person; or
(d) in which he or she has an advantage derived from employment as a member of a police force.

Exception, paid duty

(2) Clause (1) (d) does not prohibit a member of a police force from performing, in a private capacity, services that have been arranged through the police force.
but frankly, I'm not quite sure what that means (if it's "paid duty", "arranged through the police force", how is it "in a private capacity" - ?). I can assure you, though, that it does NOT involve carrying a firearm, if the individual is not acting as a peace officer, because carrying firearms simply is not allowed, period, outside of hugely, hugely exceptional circumstances, of which I am aware of none other than the armoured car worker exception.

It is absolutely beyond me why a society or community would allow its public employees to engage in private employment in which they could then exercise the powers of their public employment on behalf of their private employer. Makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Smells of weird fascist (government-corporate intertwining) stuff to me, in fact.

As I would hope it does to the rest of you here -- and not just in the big Blackwater case. It is every bit as inappropriate if it is the Sheriff of Mayberry hiring himself out to police the mall.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'm still surprised when you refer to law enforcements officers as nuts and bozos.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. From the Atlas of the Mysterious in North America:
"Dunn, North Carolina. An eight-year-old boy saw a little man the size of a Coke bottle while the boy while the boy was playing in a cornfield near his home on October 12, 1976. The little man was wearing black boots and trousers, a blue top, and a "German-type" hat. The boy said the entity squeaked like a mouse and disappeared into the cornfield."
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. not the cornfield!


Watched that one about 3 weeks ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)

Three episodes on every Sunday night on Newfoundland TV!

I was trying to be conscientious so I didn't miss it again, but dang it, two weeks ago I missed my very favourite episode on its turn in the cycle.

... Damn. Been looking at wiki, watching at youtube, can't figure out which one it was. Thought it was the stopped watch one, but thought it had Jack Klugman, so it could have been the trumpet one, but it isn't matching up.

Just the scene I have in my head ... the music ... the rainy sidewalk ... the downward camera angle ... the neon signs ... the black and white ...

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Davey

Nothing you say surprises me.

Not even that bit of unintelligible caca.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Police are the only ones I know the go out in public festooned with firearms at all times.
I thought that was who you were talking about.

David
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. some interesting differences
Here, the sheriff and three other elected county officials--coroners, jailers and constables--are peace officers, possessing law enforcement powers. These powers include a broad grant of authority to make arrests. When in actual pursuit of a law violator, a peace officer may cross corporate or county lines for the purpose of making an arrest. As a peace officer, he is duty bound to affect an arrest if a felony is committed in his presence even if outside his jurisdiction but within the Commonwealth. They may appoint deputies and compel the "power of the county" to assist them, that is, raise a "posse". These powers are not granted the police. These trace back directly to their English Common Law roots.

Police on the other hand derive plenary or special law enforcement powers by appointment, and at the pleasure of, the federal government, the Commonwealth, or any political subdivision, agency, department, branch, , or service of either, or of any municipality, public university, or airport within the respective jurisdictions. Depending on the agency, a policeman may or may not have any authority off-duty even within his jurisdiction.

In Kentucky the legislature is empowered only to deny to citizens the right to carry concealed weapons. If the gun is worn outside the jacket or shirt in full view, no one may question the wearer’s right so to do. The constitutional provision is an affirmation of the faith that all men have the inherent right to arm themselves for the defense of themselves and of the state. The only limitation concerns the mode of carrying such instruments. Although a person is granted the right to carry a weapon openly, a severe penalty is imposed for carrying it concealed.

Prior to 1996 the ONLY exception was that peace officers and policemen were permitted to carry concealed. A disgraced and corrupt Sheriff in one of the large urban counties was discovered to have issued appointments as "Deputy" to any "political contributor" who would pony up a thousand dollars to his campaign fund. Quite coincidentally, he was one of the most vociferous opponents of the change in the law to permit ordinary citizens to carry concealed deadly weapons.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. how delightfully medieval! ;)

... the sheriff and three other elected county officials--coroners, jailers and constables--are peace officers, possessing law enforcement powers. ...

Oh eek. We seem to have an essentially similar arrangement. This "sheriff" business ... my one-time small-town sweetie whose son had killed himself with a family hunting weapon, he was a court official at the time and subsequently became sheriff. All that meant was that he was in charge of seizing property to collect on judgments, really. I'm very sure he didn't go around arresting people -- although, come to think of it (see (c) below), he might have been in charge of doing that every couple of years if someone failed to appear for a judgment debtor examination, about the only reason a civil court official, which is what a sheriff is in this province, would get mixed up with arrests.


“peace officer”
« agent de la paix »

“peace officer” includes

(a) a mayor, warden, reeve, sheriff, deputy sheriff, sheriff’s officer and justice of the peace,

(b) a member of the Correctional Service of Canada who is designated as a peace officer pursuant to Part I of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, ...,

(c) a police officer, police constable, bailiff, constable, or other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace or for the service or execution of civil process,

(d) an officer within the meaning of the Customs Act, the Excise Act or the Excise Act, 2001, ...,

(d.1) an officer authorized under subsection 138(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act,

(e) a person designated as a fishery guardian under the Fisheries Act when performing any duties or functions under that Act ...,

(f) the pilot in command of an aircraft ... while the aircraft is in flight, and

(g) officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces who are ...;


The odd wildlife officer and suchlike is authorized to carry a firearm. Oh, and customs officers at ports of entry just got in on the deal, after much whinging by their union about how dangerous their job is.

But absolutely none of them is authorized to carry a firearm when not on duty. And none of them other than actual police, with those odd wildlife and border officer exceptions, carries a firearm at any other time.

Duties of police officer

42. (1) The duties of a police officer include,

(a) preserving the peace;
(b) preventing crimes and other offences and providing assistance and encouragement to other persons in their prevention;
(c) assisting victims of crime;
(d) apprehending criminals and other offenders and others who may lawfully be taken into custody;
(e) laying charges and participating in prosecutions;
(f) executing warrants that are to be executed by police officers and performing related duties;
(g) performing the lawful duties that the chief of police assigns;
(h) in the case of a municipal police force and in the case of an agreement under section 10 (agreement for provision of police services by O.P.P.), enforcing municipal by-laws;
(i) completing the prescribed training.

Power to act throughout Ontario

(2) A police officer has authority to act as such throughout Ontario.

Powers and duties of common law constable

(3) A police officer has the powers and duties ascribed to a constable at common law.


I have never been able to find anything to suggest that a police officer when not on duty has any powers or duties other than as an ordinary member of the public. I cannot imagine that our rather stroppy and powerful police unions would agree that a union member on his/her own time would have any obligation to do anything.

Of course, our chiefs of police are appointed by the relevant levels of government, and the kind of corruption you describe really just has no parallel here.


I did some genealogy for a DU member in the US (known to me from elsewhere) a couple of years ago. Turns out she is descended from Alexander Markham, possibly "the" Sheriff of Nottingham. ;)

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
39.  Jim Greene
was elected repeatedly. He had a powerful political machine and winning the Democratic primary in the spring he'd be unopposed in the general election in the fall. What finally started his fiefdom to unravel was the old lecher fondled the wrong office help. When the sexual harassment case came to naught, Federal authorities were prompted to look into other allegations. Finally, former High Sheriff of Jefferson County, Kentucky, did a six month stretch at Maxwell AFB, Alabama for tax evasion. In addition, he was fined $128,000. He seemed bitter about it, complaining that he had made a deal for no prison time. All they could make stick to Al Capone was tax evasion, too.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. I am.
Do something the hell about it.

I am doing something about it. I work hard to make sure that everyone, rich and poor, has the right and ability to bear arms for defense of self and property if they so choose. It shouldn't be the purview of only those with money or government permission.

Sure ain't that way where I'm at.

Yes, I know, it's worse.
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