Soccer mom gets back gun permit

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1224034813147280.xml&coll=1



The sheriff would not have been reversed if he had stuck to law enforcement not "opinion enforcement"

we would not let her kid play. No firearms allowed at the field, by virtue of an agreement signed when the parent enrolls the kid.

Nothing they can do about it, except attempt to bully her into leaving, which didn't work, or bully the aging sheriff to revoke her license to cover it up with no good cause, which did work, temporarily. Ironically enough all that accomplished was forcing her to open carry at all times, since open carry is legal in pennsylvania.

She should have been locked-up.

And if not, and if you have a car, and if you have ever driven by a kid, you should be locked up.

They kill a lot more kids than guns do every year.

than in the holster is in the gun safe. According to the articles, she did nothing wrong and was perfectly safe.

Think about what you are saying.

;-)

I am terrified that the field will be invaded by crazed lunatics out to get me.

One time it almost happened, but it turned out to just be the other parents. But, I still feel the need to carry heat every time I'm around little kids. Ya just never know...

(And what if those soccer hooligans get lost and can't find anything but a kid's game to wreck?)

many people chose to carry their weapon everywhere the law allows.

I once asked an individual who always carried his weapon why he did so. He replied, "Well If I woke up in the morning and glanced at my calendar and read a memo that told me to carry my weapon that day, I wouldn't bother to carry on other days."

He made a valid point. You can never predict when you will need your weapon. Life comes at you fast.

Would I carry a weapon at a soccer game involving children? When asked this question, I would reply that you have to get to and from the soccer game. You may stop somewhere after the game. The chances of anything happening at the game or on your trip is far less than your chances of being hit by lightning. On the other hand, if you are a licensed and trained individual, how would you feel if something happened to you or those you love and you had chosen to leave your weapon behind. When you look at your face in the mirror in the morning would you say "if only I would have had my weapon with me?"

Carrying a weapon is a tremendous responsibility. If you ever have to use it, you will face legal expense and serious physiological trauma. Any sensible person who carries a weapon should be well aware of this. You are not a cop. If you use the weapon you carry in a irresponsible manner, you will face a legal system with no sympathy. It's much simpler to merely not carry a weapon. You have to know yourself and trust in your skill to use your weapon and your ability to make a correct decision in a mere matter of seconds before you ever chose to "pack heat".

Real life in no way resembles movies. Movies are entertainment. Real life is very serious and if you see yourself as a Rambo character, it's best to live out your fantasy without carrying a firearm.

I carry my weapon concealed. Obviously, carrying your weapon in open view would upset many people. It may be your right, but why do this.

of deadly attacks at junior soccer games.

While I understand some people's reasons for carrying, there are times it looks like others are just trying to push the point. I can't imagine how people would freak around here if someone carried openly at a Little League game, legal or not, public park or not. Wouldn't be surprised if a few people there freaked when sho showed up.

(FWIW, I think they eventually changed the policy, but a friend of mine on the NYPD was required to carry his piece every time he left the house. He was pissed at having to deal with the damn thing at weddings, his kids' games and school shows... His wife got pissed, too, since half the time she ended up with it in her purse.)

during the game is a good alternative. However, in the woman's situation where she was known to always carry a weapon, often openly, someone might have noticed that she didn't have her weapon. They might have decided to break into her vehicle and obtain her weapon.

Another good reason not to advertise that you carry a weapon.

Ask Suzanna Hupp about what can happen when you leave your firearm in your car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard

The real question you should be asking is why should you leave the firearm in a car? If I'm a CCW permit holder and I've meet the requirements for said permit then I can walk down main street surrounded by hundreds of fellow citizens with no trouble at all. What's different about a ball game?

I do not advocate open carry, as I feel it leads to confrontation and hysteria.

But if you are obeying the law, especially if you are a CCW permit holder, I have no more fear of you carrying a firearm at a ball game than I would a policeman.

if you don't carry you're gonna be responsible for the deaths of hundreds.

Maybe even thousands.

(I always carry my chainsaw around just in case a tree falls on someone.)

I keep a chain lift and chainsaw in my truck in winter months. I've used it to help recover a couple vehicles too. Same with my first-aid kit.

Wow! There's just so much of that going on that...if you don't carry you're gonna be responsible for the deaths of hundreds.

In all my nearly 40 years of life I have never witnessed a home fire, either. Yet I still carry insurance against that possibility. I also have smoke detectors in my house.

I've never had a flat tire, yet I keep the spare tire in my car inflated and ready to use.

Hand off your duty weapon to your spouse, who does not have a right to carry in NYC. Hope she doesn't get arrested for carrying illegally, NYC takes that very seriously if you aren't doing anything else wrong.

PD regulations.

So, what do you do with your gun if you're best man at a wedding? Or at the beach?

You figure it out, because it is a part of your job, especially as a public servant and peace officer. There are plenty of excellent holsters out there made specifically for concealed carry, since his job entails carrying his firearm at all times, he could put a small amount of effort into finding a good holster that allows him to comfortably carry his firearm at all times without being obvious or awkward.

At the beach, I don't know. Bring a locking container, and leave it locked up inside a locked car. If he is NYPD, then his pistol is a Glock 19? That is one of the easiest guns to find a good holster for, every holster company makes models that fit the compact Glock size. Have him check out www.comp-tac.com, they are my favorite company and they also are very fast at making your holster. The MTAC is my favorite model, have not tried the others, but it is a great combination of the comfort of leather and the all-around good qualities of kydex. Plus they are incredibly easy to adjust to fit the user, and are tuckable should he be at a wedding or other function that requires a tucked shirt.

It was misery. I was on a detail doing drug eradication at the time and it was making waves. There's nothing like running into the guy who's patch you just destroyed. Even though we had backup/off-duty weapons it was still a gigantic pain in the tail. I was never so glad to see an order rescinded or for a detail to be discontinued.

You got to admire the discipline that some concealed carry advocates exercise in strapping on for every trip out the door. I don't ever care to have to do it again.

I've been out of the house without a lot of stuff I ended up needing later, but somehow a gun was never one of them.

I have been caught out before in a mess where I really should have been armed.

Once, I ran into a fellow who had previously tried to kill me with a knife on a domestic violence call. I had my infant twin sons with me at the time. Our pillar of society was loaded and was getting that drunken rage about him that caused our first encounter. It was in the middle of WalMart of all places.

Another time I was at the grocery store in the checkout line. My wife was listening to the clerk as she told her about how her ex-husband was stalking her and was probably going to kill her even though she had a restraining order. As we were leaving, guess who wandered through the front door? The sheriff's department was rolling up to the doors as we went past him towards the parking lot.

Have you ever bumped into a guy who just happened to be on his way to kidnap and rob a neighbor down the street? Yeah, the guy stopped long enough to say "Hello" and get a snowball thrown at him by the kids. He then proceeded down the street to his business appointment. The police were a bit surprised when I told them that one. Crime of that sort in my neighborhood is almost unheard-of.

Then there was the famous pit bull incident. My wife comes in hollering for me to get the AR15 because there was a pit bull trying to kill one of her Maltese dogs. I quickly grabbed it and headed out to see what the excitement was about. Yep, it was a pit bull alright. I yelled at it and it rolled over on it's back for me to rub it's tummy. The "owner", a young kid from Baltimore living with a "relative", was less than impressed with his tough dog getting a tummy rub and a couple of treats. He agreed that my alternative plan wasn't an option that either of us wanted to see exercised.

Having said that, I don't carry all the time. I never open carry unless it's work-related.

you probably wouldn't be here posting about it. (I'm glad you are able to post)


I think it should be up to the individual. I can't carry at work because it's a condition of employment, and I have a hard time figuring out comfortable weapon retention when jogging, but I manage, because of wildlife where I run and bike. (No cougars lately, but we do have bears)

Everywhere else, I carry. Hasn't been needed yet, but hasn't caused me any problems yet either.

That's precisely why I don't concealed carry - it's too much of a hassle.

Everywhere you go you have to be aware of whether or not you are allowed to bring your firearm in or not. If you end up someplace where it's not allowed, you have to leave it in your car, which to me is very risky.

Then of course there is the hassle of obtaining the CCW permit and the consequence of showing up on the government's radar as a firearm owner.

I haven't found life dangerous enough to carry.

She might be the one to stop the first of such attacks.

If she's not threatening anyone with it, it's no different from an officer in uniform, with a sidearm present.

The only place I would leave a weapon is in a very strong safe. Otherwise I'd want to have positive control and have it with me at all times. Not because I might be in danger at any given time but there is no telling what might happen if you leave your weapon simply at home or in a vehicle. Cars are broken into all the time, especially here in Arizona. Look up statistics and you'll see Tucson and Mesa have one of the highest auto theft rates in the nation and it's about the gun landing the hands of a wrong individual. The woman with the gun with her is doing the safe thing imo by keeping in the hands of someone who is responsible rather then leaving it somewhere, the gun ends up in the hands of the wrong individuals. This reason alone is why I don't want a gun is because I don't want the responsibility of owning one but if I did I would only leave it in 2 places, a safe, and in arms reach of myself.

many people chose to carry their weapon everywhere the law allows.

Really. Who the fuck cares?

Why would the parents of all the other children playing soccer in this league give a flying fuck what this particular asshole chooses to do?

Who the fuck cares what a huge humongous great big responsibility wearing a gun around involves? What remote relevance does that have to do with the issue here?

If the asshole in this story, or you, are so incontinently afraid that something baaaaad will happen to you on your way to a children's soccer soccer game that you can't leave home without your gun without fretting and quaking in your boots the whole time you're gone, here's some advice for free.

Stay home.

Everybody will be happy.

but sometimes you do appear to be trying to provoke an emotional response. Homie don't play dat game.

The response being provoked ain't being provoked by me.

The provocation is all on the part of the asshole in this story and all the other assholes like her. You know it and I know it, and anybody who doesn't know it needs to have a few things explained.

This asshole is a provocateur. Anyone who walks around in a public place with a firearm ... or a holster -- from the punk kid in Utah to the posse in the Ohio restaurant to the Republican kiddies promenading their empty holsters around on campus -- is a provocateur. That is what they are. That is what they intend to be.

They are the (racist, misogynist) right wing's latest ploy, although it's all rather old hat now.

They are identical to the "free speech" provocateurs who have been operating for a few years now. You know: Mark Steyn and his crew.

Eek, eek, we're victims! We're just exercising our constitutional rights! The Islamists and liberals and feminazis are out to get us!

The idea that constitutional rights are a weapon with which to batter the public in general, and vulnerable individuals and groups in particular, is disgusting. The woman in this story is disgusting, all of the open-carry activists are disgusting, all of the right-wing hate-speech activists are disgusting. And anybody who says otherwise is one of them, or not very bright, or woefully and appallingly uninformed, or something else I haven't managed to imagine yet.

disgusting too. :)

is not the best way to carry your self defense weapon at sporting events with children, even if legal in the area you live.

I wouldn't go quite so far as to label the woman an "asshole" without personally knowing her. A "provocateur" is probably a good description of her agenda especially if she does continue to carry her weapon openly at the soccer games.

LEBANON - Meleanie Hain said she will probably continue to carry her gun openly at her children's soccer games, even after Lebanon County Judge Robert Eby asked her not to.

"I know he'll be disappointed," she said Tuesday after her successful appeal of a sheriff's decision to revoke her concealed gun permit. "But a gun-free zone says it's an easy target."
http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1224034813147280.xml&coll=1

And I might point out that if the soccer game had occurred in a "gun-free" zone, she would have faced more serious legal charges and definitely would have never got her concealed carry permit back.

Laws can be changed. Quite possibly the citizens of Pennsylvania will pass a law restricting open carry in public places. If this happens she will be disappointed and Judge Eby will be pleased.

The provocation is all on the part of the asshole in this story and all the other assholes like her. You know it and I know it, and anybody who doesn't know it needs to have a few things explained.

All true Scotsmen know what this is really about, eh?


This asshole is a provocateur. Anyone who walks around in a public place with a firearm ... or a holster -- from the punk kid in Utah to the posse in the Ohio restaurant to the Republican kiddies promenading their empty holsters around on campus -- is a provocateur. That is what they are. That is what they intend to be.

They are the (racist, misogynist) right wing's latest ploy, although it's all rather old hat now.

Aaah, the R,MR-W. The ones you have been insisting are behind gun ownership and relaxed gun laws
for years. Well then, how do the millions of gun owners who are going to vote for Obama fit
into your cosmology? Or the AHSA's endorsement of Obama/Biden?

This is like some lefty parallel with "young-earth creationism". No matter what evidence to the contrary,
you will just keep insisting that it's true. Instead of "reefer madness", we get "handgun madness".

They are identical to the "free speech" provocateurs who have been operating for a few years now. You know: Mark Steyn and his crew.

Or those pesky protesters at the Republican National Convention. Don't these people understand that
some exercises of Constitutional rights just aren't done? Only the *proper* sort of legal behavior is
acceptable.

The idea that constitutional rights are a weapon with which to batter the public in general, and vulnerable individuals and groups in particular, is disgusting. The woman in this story is disgusting, all of the open-carry activists are disgusting, all of the right-wing hate-speech activists are disgusting. And anybody who says otherwise is one of them, or not very bright, or woefully and appallingly uninformed, or something else I haven't managed to imagine yet.

Wow. That's the best imitation of Mary Whitehouse I've ever seen. Kudos to you!



Maybe you shouldn't read this thread, you'll just get all depressed:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x187921

Aaah, the R,MR-W. The ones you have been insisting are behind gun ownership and relaxed gun laws for years.

Nope, none there.


Well then, how do the millions of gun owners who are going to vote for Obama fit into your cosmology? Or the AHSA's endorsement of Obama/Biden?

Ain't it funny how when you start out with a FALSE PREMISE you find yourself wallowing in shit?


They are identical to the "free speech" provocateurs who have been operating for a few years now. You know: Mark Steyn and his crew.
Or those pesky protesters at the Republican National Convention.

That's your line. Hope you're happy with it.

Me, I have no difficulty distinguishing between apples and oranges.

Or between people exercising their speech rights in order to convey a genuine message and people exercising their speech rights, using vulnerable minorities as their playthings, in order to provoke a response in which they can whine about being victims.


Or the AHSA's endorsement of Obama/Biden?

AHSA. Alberta Hotel Safety Association? Animal Health Solutions of America? I give up.


Maybe you shouldn't read this thread, you'll just get all depressed:

Why? Have you ever heard me say that either Barack Obama or Joe Biden is someone I'd pick for my own head of government, or is my choice for ideal President of the United States? Or hmm, maybe I'm supposed to be all aggrieved that some interest group in the US opposes a policy measure I have never expressly approved myself? I still give up.

Look, if you've got some evidence Ms. Hain is oppressing someone, let's have it.
Otherwise, it's more conspiracy theory.

This "racist, misogynist right-wing" stuff is coming across like the Puritans' view of Satan:

They're behind every bad thing. Goodman Wilson's cow fails to give milk = Satan's doing

Melanie Hain carries a handgun at a soccer game = The R,MR-W in action

We seem to be playing a game I don't know the rules to!

Look, if you've got some evidence Ms. Hain is oppressing someone, let's have it.
Otherwise, it's more conspiracy theory.

Actually, I'd say it's more deceitful and/or stupid shit.

I said:

Or between people exercising their speech rights in order to convey a genuine message and people exercising their speech rights, using vulnerable minorities as their playthings, in order to provoke a response in which they can whine about being victims.

Was the cretin in question exercising speech rights?

Didn't think so.

I think this game is called "the shell game". Did I get it right??


Oh, and you did get this bit right:

Melanie Hain carries a handgun at a soccer game = The R,MR-W in action

You win some, you lose some, I guess.

If the asshole in this story, or you, are so incontinently afraid that something baaaaad will happen to you on your way to a children's soccer soccer game that you can't leave home without your gun without fretting and quaking in your boots the whole time you're gone, here's some advice for free.

Stay home.

Everybody will be happy.

Well here's some advice for you for free, too. If you are afraid that a CCW permit holder is going to do something baaaaad at your children's soccer game just because they are carrying a gun, stay home. Everyone will be happy.

Thank you for putting it so plainly.

Anyone who feels insecure as a result of the actions of the racist, misogynist, bigoted right wing and its many tentacles should stay home.

GLBT people who feel insecure going out at night should stay home. Women who feel insecure in the workplace should stay home. Children who belong to minority groups who feel insecure in their schools should stay home. People of colour who feel insecure on the streets should stay home.

At the very least, they should all shut the fuck up.

That's exactly the goal. You got it in one.

and it is the way it is.

No one needs to stay home unless their fears rule their life. That is a issue that needs help from another direction.

I will keep packing my pistol in my pants and life goes on. I have no fear of those that do not have nor wish for the ability to provide for their own personal security by carrying a firearm. They may instead rely on others and hope they show up in time.

As a cop I appreciate the statement..."when seconds count the cops are just minutes away." My wife does as well and she is armed when she is out with our son at his ball games and after school events.

I suggest the sheriff should follow the law and the other parents should chill out.

David

I agree with the judge that concealed carry is a better option.

I have a Florida concealed carry permit. In Florida open carry in public by civilians is not allowed. If for no other reason it scares the tourists (snow birds). While some pro gun organizations are pushing to allow open carry in Florida, it's my view that concealed carry is the best approach.

Hanging a gun off my belt in open view in public at the minimum makes me look like a total gun nut out looking for an excuse to use my weapon. An exposed weapon also makes me a target. Some fool or fools may be interested in grabbing my weapon. I don't walk around with a stack of $20 bills hanging out of my pocket and I would have no interest in open carry. People form their opinion of you based on their first impression. It's hard to form a friendship or a personal or business relationship when you carry a large semi-auto in open view.

She said she didn't conceal her gun because she can get it out faster if it's not concealed. She said her husband is in law enforcement, so that makes her feel like more of a target.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1224034813147280.xml&coll=1&thispage=2

Their are many excellent methods of carrying a concealed weapon that allow quick access. I personally prefer to carry my Smith and Wesson J-frame revolver in a pocket holster in my front pants pocket. If I find myself in a threatening situation, I stick my hand in my pocket on the weapon. I would be willing to bet that I can draw my weapon faster than she can.

But as my daughter points out to me, women wear different styled pants so my method of carry would not work for her. She also never wears a belt, which eliminates many methods of concealed carry as well as open carry. She prefers to carry her weapon in a purse. In a threatening situation she puts her hand inside the purse on the weapon. She picked up some cheap purses and has practiced shooting at close range through the purse. She may be even faster than I am.

Both my daughter and myself would be interested in how other women have resolved the problem of carrying a concealed firearm.

I agree - open carry is not a great idea. It can lead to confrontations with people wanting to see how tough you are, and the rest of the time it generates hysteria among people who don't understand the laws regarding firearms. I can't really think of any positive to open carrying of a firearm. All carrying a firearm openly does is get you unwanted attention.

If I find myself in a threatening situation, I stick my hand in my pocket on the weapon.

The mind boggles.

Any estimate of the frequency of such occurrences? Your use of the present tense suggests that it's a common circumstance. Finding yourself in a threatening situation. Daily? Weekly? Thrice daily?

Ever considered that there's something screwy about your lifestyle / habits that you find yourself in threatening situations? Any theories about why this doesn't happen to, oh, me?

Does it make you feel safe and warm to stick your hand in your pocket on your weapon?

Just curious, you know.

twice in ten years.

Why do we make up silly names for silly conditions that do not help convey anything useful?

For instance, during a convenience store robbery once a lady just wandered through the door while the robber was exchanging shots with the clerk on his way out the door, she walked in like nothing was happening at all. Someone dubbed that condition clear. Ordinarily condition white would be the level of alert when you are totally unaware of what is going on around you, but this lady upped the ante and created condition clear.

to be worse than useless. Hey, lets flip it, maybe it should be code black, because she's blind, not seeing anything, bumbling about unguided. Useless.

This is useless trivial data, in substitute for meaningful situational awareness training. Ugh. Is this really widespread in self defense classes? I hope people aren't spending money on this crap.

Utilizing awareness, risk reduction and avoidance techniques, you can achieve a large degree of control over your fate thru learning to observe your environment, continually evaluating it, and reacting appropriately to what you see or feel. This requires that you learn a concept known as Color Code developed by Colonel Jeff Cooper as a way to train soldiers in awareness and readiness to react & respond to combat conditions. The system is now taught to military and police organizations and is used in most handgun training classes.

*********snip*************

The Color Code System of Awareness

So what is the color code system of awareness? Simply, it is 5 states of readiness. They are:
# White - unaware, not paying attention
# Yellow - attentive, but relaxed
# Orange - focus is directed, there is an immediate potential threat
# Red - there is a definitive threat
# Black - you are actively fighting
http://www.self-defense-mind-body-spirit.com/awareness.html

This is incredible. The human mind does not 'shift gears' like a 5 speed transmission. Threat/response is a spectrum of emotional and cognitive function that can't be broken down like this. It doesn't even serve any practical purpose. If someone takes a swing at you do you think 'oh holy shit, code black, I better do something, let me consult my manual'. You just DO. Putting names and meaningless colors to it is useless.

If this is in any way necessary, it's because we have become creatures that have forgotten how to live.

Speaking of meaningless, WTF does the center of that graphic represent? What the hell is that? Seems like some sort of cliched stereotype that doesn't even know what it wants to be. Colors inverted much? It doesn't even seem to speak to the proximity of a threat. Really, what the crap is that?


I did not know this existed. I'm going to stick to his opinions on how to properly use a rifle sling, and the advantages of a scout-mounted scope on certain rifles, but dammned if this color/code level crap isn't the most asinine thing I have seen all day. National threat levels sort of make sense, because it's a multi-faceted orginizational response system with readiness goals, but for an individual human mind, this is <unprintable>.

I've been frequently asked about the Gunsite Color Code. Nowadays, just about everyone is familiar with the "color code" used by the government to indicate terrorist threat level. However, the color code as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Jeff, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Jeff didn't claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state and has definitely spread the word about it.


*****snip******


"In White you are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked in White you will probably die unless your adversary is totally inept.

In Yellow you bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and that you may have to do something about it.

In Orange you have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action which may result in his death, but you are not in a lethal mode.

In Red you are in a lethal mode and will shoot if circumstances warrant."
http://www.frfrogspad.com/color.htm

The U.S.M.C. also uses "Condition Black" as actively engaged in combat, as do some of his successors, but Cooper always felt this is an unnecessary step and not in keeping with the mindset definitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Jeff_Cooper

You believe that the Cooper Color Code is asinine. I have no problem with that. It works well for many shooters and it's widely taught in concealed weapons classes and at firearm schools like Gunsite.

this is for creatures that have forgotten how to live. Fight or flight is an instinct. It's built into you. This 5 level color coded nonsense doesn't even work with it. There is no reason, for instance, not to go from a cold stop 'condition white' to red/black fighting for your life in a moment. You can't even really control autonomic functions like adrenal response. Not in any meaningful way in relation to this color chart business.

You cannot build a logical framework for how to paint a pretty picture, for instance. It just can't be done. You could do more for people by simply pushing their comfort level. Put them in situations where the unexpected happens. Where things that appear safe, or were ignored, 'kill' you.

If you can't go from white to red/black on demand, you have forgotten or never had instincts and you are screwed.


One piece of insight has come out of this. I now understand the 'you are a difficult problem in orange' saying.

Edit: I don't recall any of this from To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth

in a matter of seconds.

When I read your replies, I believe you already understand and employ the basic ideas. The code is designed to educate people who have lost their basic instincts.

People who walk down a street with a cell phone glued to their ear and their eyes on the sidewalk in front of them are in condition white. They have no "situational awareness". To the criminal looking for an easy target they fit the bill.

A person in condition yellow is alert to his surroundings. He's not paranoid or fearful. He walks confidently in a upright position, he makes eye contact with people he passes and looks for anything out of place, (like a heavy jacket in summer heat). When a criminal sees him, he may decide to wait for an easier victim.

Condition orange occurs when a person notices something unusual. Perhaps he notices that he might have someone following him. He may decide to stop in a coffee shop or a store for a few minutes.

Condition red occurs when there is an actual attack. The bad guy approaches the citizen and draws a weapon and demands money. What happens after this depends on the training, ability and armament of the individual under attack. He may merely decide to throw his wallet near the bad guy and run away as fast as he can, yelling "Fire, fire".

The idea is to learn that when you are in public, to be in condition yellow. The fact that you are alert and aware of your surroundings will probably keep you safe and out of danger.

this is for creatures that have forgotten how to live. Fight or flight is an instinct. It's built into you.

You would be amazed how sophisticated the study of "situational awareness" is.

Even my martial arts instructor in college had a variant of teaching this awareness system, though it was not color coded. The moral of the story is basically you avoid confrontation by being aware of your surroundings. You'd be amazed how many people don't listen to their instincts. This is why they always tell women in self-defense classes to listen to your "gut" - if a situation feels bad or out-of-the-ordinary it probably is. Too many people have grown up with so much faith in "civilization" that they ignore these gut warning signals and instead put their faith in the humanity of those around them. Most people are simply on auto-pilot and don't pick up the social cues of others around them to sense impending harm.

Case in point. I was visiting some relatives up north a few months ago. We came out of a bar and I helped my aunt into the car. Out of the corner of my eye I saw two people approaching from about 75 yards away - across an intersection - but even from there they "hit my radar" as something out of place. Sure enough, they were coming out way, and proceeded to chat me up and tell me how nice my car was (it was a rental) and then of course to hit me up for money. I hit the lock on the key-fob and then explained to them I don't carry cash any more and only use debit cards and could not help them (I normally do give cash to people who ask for it as I don't go to church to donate so I figure if someone is hard up enough to ask me for money I will give it even if they are scamming me), and they went on their way.

When I got in the car my aunt said she never noticed them until they were right up on the car. This is a classic example of the "white" situational awareness mind-set. When you walk out of a bar in an urban environment at night you should be more aware of your surroundings than that.

As an aside, this is one of those few cases where I have wished I was a CCW permit holder. I had no way of knowing when these beggars came up to me what they wanted or to what extent they were willing to go to get it. If I had a pistol on me my hand would have been on it for sure.

Not much to add. ;)

Only one thing: the moronic colour codes don't even make sense.

"White - unaware, not paying attention" -- one could be unaware and not paying attention in a situation where there is an immediate threat. The others combine an individual's response with a particular situation, totally arbitrarily. Even as descriptions of whatever they're supposed to be descriptions of (awareness level or response level??), they're complete bunk.

"Situational awareness" is often taught at martial arts schools.

Your comment:

"White - unaware, not paying attention" -- one could be unaware and not paying attention in a situation where there is an immediate threat. is very accurate and happens all the time.

The object of a martial art instructor, a military instructor or an instructor in a concealed carry class is to teach people to be aware of their environment when in public. Any good instructor in the marital arts or self defensive use of firearms or knives will teach his students to always avoid confrontation and only to use the skill he teaches if there is no other choice. If the student learns to be in "condition yellow", he will be able to avoid most dangerous encounters.

You have described the neighborhood you live in. Somehow, I suspect you instinctively are in "condition yellow", if you walk alone down the streets around your home at night. You may not prefer to label your alertness as such but that is exactly what it is.

Jeff Cooper was fond of codifying advise in simple terms or conditions. Since he was a popular writer for the gun culture and considered one of leading experts on the use of small arms , his methods are understood and used by many members of that community. For example he described carrying a 1911 style .45 cal semi-auto pistol in the following manner:

* Condition Zero: A round chambered, hammer cocked, safety off
* Condition One: A round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on
* Condition Two: A round chambered, hammer down
* Condition Three: Chamber empty
* Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_Jeff_Cooper

So when I talk to another gun enthusiast (gun-nut) I can say that when I carry my Colt .45, I carry it in Condition One. He understands what I'm saying without a full description.

is fantastic, I also normally carry in Condition One, but I think this illustrates my original problem with the color/awareness alerts. Weapon Conditions correspond to binary yes-no conditions. Awareness of your surroundings is more... idunno, organic than that. What does Code Yellow mean to two different people? How big is the grey area? Does associating a color with a mindset help both people remember to be IN that frame of mind? I don't think there's a 'right' answer. Training awareness is much more nuanced than that.

I'm doing motorcycle training now, and they have all kinds of bullshit you have to memorize to pass the test and get your license, like SENSE and a couple other acronyms that are meaningless to the real world, and how you think while driving. You can't cycle through something like a takeoff checklist over and over while driving. It doesn't work. You'd make a better impression on that person you are trying to train if you put them on a roadcourse or in a simulator, and scare the crap out of them with something, like ANOTHER motorcycle darting out from behind a vehicle, a semi that comes over without looking, cars that don't register your presence, etc. Not some mindless See, Eye contact, Nerghfhfhffff whatever else they pegged into a five letter list.

I think it's a horrible way to train the people who need that training the most. Ever watch the Venture Brothers? Think of Dean, driving the car, repeating to himself over and over "two and ten two and ten two and ten" for the hand positions on the steering wheel. That's what I tend to think of when I see this stuff anyway.

Jeff Cooper was probably pleased with the success of his codes for carrying a .45 auto. So as a popular gun writer, he decided to come up color codes to summarize a person's alert status. This effort wasn't as successful as the codes he used weren't "binary yes-no conditions". And we all have seen the Homeland Security's color codes. (God, how I hate the name Department of HOMELAND Security.) I wonder how many people know the difference between blue and yellow in that system?

My father, who worked the Hill District in Pittsburgh Pa., taught me the original concept of situational awareness at an early age. A tour of duty in the Air Force reinforced the lesson (although I got the feeling that if you were in danger or condition red you should run and let the Air Police or the Marines handle the situation). Listening to my daughters judo instructor and attending some Jujitsu or self defense classes he taught drilled the lessons in further.

So the concept of being in condition yellow when in public is second nature to me. I don't think about it, I just am. If I notice something truly suspicious, I don't think, "Oh, I have to go to condition orange". First, I try to find a way to avoid a potential problem. Maybe I can merely walk across the street, maybe I can walk to a more public area, etc, etc. I don't panic or become afraid. If I can't avoid the problem, which might be considered condition orange, I observe the possibly threatening individual and I consider my options. The very last option is using my concealed weapon and to do that I have to be absolutely convinced that the other person intends to hurt or kill me. If my observations of the man and his emotional state convince me that all he wants is my money, I probably would just give it to him. I can replace money, drivers licenses and credit cards easily. It's also a good idea to carry a wallet with a small amount of money, but no valid credit cards or ID cards as a give away item.

But anyone can practice situational awareness. It may take a little practice at first. You have to learn not to be chatting on your cell phone or thinking about the boss you hate at work while waling down the street.

By the way, I rarely drive with my hands at the "two and ten position".

The concept is similar to being a safe driver. I can't count the number of times I have observed drivers acting in a dangerous manner around me while I'm driving. I'm alert for drivers moving considerably faster or slower than the traffic flow. I notice a driver who is weaving and may be drunk. I watch ahead for red lights that indicate a potential problem. I try to avoid irritating aggressive drivers who love to weave in and out of traffic. I always try to have an escape route when possible. I don't tailgate. I don't talk on a cell phone when driving.

I don't think about all these things when I'm driving. All these actions are second nature after years of driving. I've managed to drive for 42 years without ever having caused an accident. I could attribute this to being in condition yellow or rarely condition orange when behind the wheel.

Than a system used during the event. Obviously if you are minding your own business reading a magazine in a park somewhere, and aren't paying any attention to what is going on around you (white) and suddenly some strung out individual leaps on you then your situation has immediately changed, the color code system is just a description of your alertness level, for classroom purposes. It is not really tied in to any actual event, since hopefully everyone will notice when someone is attacking them.

Ever considered that there's something screwy about your lifestyle / habits that you find yourself in threatening situations? Any theories about why this doesn't happen to, oh, me?

Who knows? Perhaps you are simply as oblivious to your personal safety as you seem to be to your liberty. Perhaps you are fortunate to live in a safe environment where violence is uncommon.

If I was a taxi driver, or a pizza delivery man, or a call girl, or child welfare officer, or psychiatrist, or any of a host of other professions I would concealed carry religiously.

Of course I've been trained extensively on how to use weapons to defend myself and others. So I could understand how someone lacking that training might not be so comfortable, I would find it hard to believe that they wouldn't want to have a weapon in hand if their life was on the line, given the choice.

David

That's just great. Her picture, and their child's, just got plastered all across the planet because momma bear prefers open carry at a child's sporting event. That's got win written all over it.

Open carry has a place. At a crowded kid's sporting event is not such a place.

If her husband's career has put her at that high a level of risk she should seriously consider not raising it more by getting her picture in the news. Does she wear a vest? Oh, and now she's advertised where she can be found. I'm sure that's quite reassuring to the other parents. I cannot help it but think this is more a publicity grab than serious defensive tactics. Cutting a higher profile just increases your risk.

I'm all for concealed carry and open carry when the setting is appropriate. Her mode of carry is simply not appropriate and that's the heart of the matter.

And with mall shootings etc... you never know when you may need it.


And as to those who think CC permit holders think of themselves as Rambo... I can tell you I have no intention of intervening in a mass shooting unless the bad guy is basically right there. If you think you need my gun to protect you... get your own gun, your own permit, and get some training.

Because some ninnies who didn't like what she was doing, which wasn't illegal or affecting them, decided to bully the sheriff into illegally rescinding her carry permit for doing absolutely nothing wrong. Whether you like open carry or not, what happened was not her fault and was wrong of the sheriff and wrong of the people who did it.

Poor dear thing, she was victimized all over again by the media, was she?

Yeah. She didn't pose for that picture. At all.

Gimme a fucking break.

Heres a website devoted to women and CCW:

ALso, open carry requires a thumb break which could delay your draw time esp if you fumble the break.

"concealed for citizens, open for law enforcment"

I don't understand why people get so uptight about concealed or open carry. I'm fine with people doing both.