1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting

Source: miamiherald.com




Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html

One of these days some 3 month old baby and her mother is going to get hit in the cross-fire. Hopefully it won't be anybody you know or love.

I mean really

(Most folks don't realize that the hit \pull trigger ratio are very low)

And no, folks will not get it even when the three month old is hit by a stray bullet

Many people have claimed that concealed carry will result in innocent people being hit in the crossfire if licensees shoot at attackers, but I've only ever heard of it happening once. The rate of accidental shootings among CCW license holders is far lower than the rate among police.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS-%20What%20We%20Didn't%20Know%20Hurt%20Us.pdf

These are relevant by the by

And I know gun nuts will make it a case

But here is the truth, a bullet that does not hit its target has to go somewhere

Like we used to say in a game years ago... where do they go?

I hate to find out

And yes, PEOPLE who are NOT DIRECTLY involved get shot regularly

Your friend bellow SHOULD KNOW BETTER

As are your spelling and punctuation skills. I don't have a friend named "bellow."

We can refute it til the cows come home, but the dimmer lights among us keep repeating
it on a regular basis.

may have just shot an innocent person anyway that day or in another robbery next week. That brave individual may have saved some innocent persons life that day or next time and he certainly saved the court system a lot of trouble. The only loser I see in this is a lawyer.

people having a concealed carry permit actually pays off. The Oklahoma Democrats are gonna love this lol

Didn't realize David was from Oklahoma. In this case, the Miami in question is Miami, Florida.

The badge has an automatic authority, cops have all kinds of training, plus back-up.

That was an idiot who got lucky. It is not the wild west. We did away with lynch mobs and vigilante justice for a reason.

In most departments, police firearms training consists of making sure you can consistently hit a stationary target 20-30 feet away. They are required to repeat that performance every 6 months to a year. It's well-known among shooters that civilian hobbyists are better shots than the average cop, because most police have no pre-existing interest in shooting and only practice so they can keep their jobs. The more hardcore hobbyists will shell out for training courses with moving targets and other types of combat simulation. A few police do training on this level, but not the majority.

diffusing high tension, escape strategies, medical, etc. Police Training. The reason we pay them more than a security guard.

....The time for negotiation is over, when someone is waving a gun around...

Odds are, that is why the CCW Holder was wounded, because he tried to negotiate.. If I am forced to draw my weapon in that situation, it will come out smoking....

Like this hotel desk clerk...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

The vast majority of line officers have only basic training in situational control. Why do you think there are so many incidents of police tasering unarmed people for no reason if they're so skilled in the more esoteric arts?

In a situation where a perpetrator has drawn a weapon, and there's no innocents in the line of fire, the police are trained to shoot first.

What movie have you been watching? We're taught to stop the aggression. It's really nice if you can do that without mowing down some desperate single mom clutching her infant and praying for Superman to save the day. Common sense would indicate that you position yourself for a good lane of fire and cover but some times you gotta do what you gotta do. There will be plenty of time for the lawyers to pick you apart later. You'd be shocked about the actual level of training of most police officers in the U.S. Hint, we spend more time obsessing over paperwork than training for a scenario that one will likely never see.

We're taught a continuum of force that escalates to the point of deadly force. Once a weapon is drawn there is no need for negotiation or understanding the root cause of the suspect's behavior. I've been in active shooter simulations where you do the shoot/don't shoot scenarios but it's not something most officers get a chance to do or really that important. It was a fun way to spend an afternoon. That training was not made mandatory and is not part of our annual qualification.

I'm willing to bet a cop would have done pretty much the same thing as the CCW holder. It's all abstract thinking and theory until some whacko presents a weapon, then it gets personal really quick.

I doubt even the most pragmatic cop is going to shoot up a few civilians to try and get through to the bad guy.

You are perfectly right that once a weapon is out the first priority is to take down the subject.

There is actually quite a bit of creativity encouraged in doing this. It's really nice if nobody gets killed or otherwise maimed. You aren't allowed to call a couple of citizens between you and the suspect "shooting through heavy cover". The rule is you have to be able to actually see the suspect in your sights, more or less, when you shoot. Getting a good lane is not really that hard as long as the suspect isn't aiming directly at you. That's why they teach you to slide left and right.

I've been to details where we didn't even bother bringing a gun because of the very real probability of killing an innocent if one needs to shoot. Wade into the crowd, feel someone tug at your empty holster, see the panicked look on their face as they realize you didn't bring a pistol but remembered your L.A. Baton; priceless I tell you.

And gun control for that matter. The kind of things they need to do to "qualify," especially with shotguns-since the high recoil and ease of mistake in operation can make them more complex for those that don't shoot them regularly-are pretty minimal. No, I can't post a link, sorry. But I remember reading on a number of occasions articles written by police officers that mentioned just how little actual firearms training is required, and how most members of police departments do basically only what is required.

Edit: hit post prematurely, here is the rest.

Police, while people with training, are still people. I don't mean to disparage, I would rather have a trained police officer around if something like this happens, but they can't be everywhere all the time, and they can make mistakes/less than ideal decisions.

Oh, ok, thanks for clearing that up for us.

For one, I get better medical training than any police officer I know, and I practice with my carry gun a heck of a lot more. You'd be surprised. It doesn't take much.

They get better swat training than I have taken, but I could pay for it if I wanted to. They also get riot control training I have no interest in. Beyond that. You'd be REALLY surprised.

and this is generally correct.

i'm not sure if "MOST recreational shooter have far more training than police", i think that's stretching it.

but imo civilian shooters are perfectly capable and exercise plenty of restraint.

hardcore hobbyists (at least where i live) are rare amongst both police AND civilian shooters.

cops necessarily have much more difficult rules of engagement, and often have a duty to act (whether or not legally imposed), whereas civilians can choose NOT to act and ime when civilians pull their guns and shoot they exercise enormous restraint.

I'm glad you have so much faith.

David

the difference, well trained cops are trained to look for where them pesky bullets may go... if they miss their targets

It is part of the tactical training

Known enough cops and seen enough training to know this...

in the first place. At least in some parts of the country they are.

force, all the way to lethal, if need be

:-)

Police in my state just killed a 15 year old with Tasers and nearly killed a 20 year old last week, shooting him in the chest for covering his eyes when they shined a flashlight in his face. Apparently this wonderful training cops get that makes them so much more trustworthy in stressful conditions isn't working.

confirming that?

ime, most times people claim the cops (or anybody else) killed somebody with a taser, that turns out to be not the case once the autopsy is in.

LOL Your very statement is laughable because most cop involved shootings, usually end up with DOZENS of rounds fired by the Police.. You get 3 or 4 officers responding to a call, and their is a HIGH likelihood that nearly 100 rounds can be expended in a very short period of time, if the perp pulls a gun. Their have been many high profile cop involved shootings, that involved huge numbers of Police fired rounds, even when the perp did not even have a gun....

And the vast majority of citizen defensive shootings usually only have 2 or 3 shots fired...


IF the cops where better trained with their weapons, they would not need to fire nearly as much. The "Spray and Spray" comes from their near absolute lack of skill.

EDIT:LOL here is some of YOUR "experts" at work.. http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10066071

That was an idiot who got lucky. It is not the wild west. We did away with lynch mobs and vigilante justice for a reason.

We used to call people who stood up to bad people at great personal risk to themselves "heroes".

To sandnsea, they are idiots.

>Hopefully it won't be anybody you know or love.

It's all about their guns. It's all about playing cops n' robbers with live ammo and innocent bystanders. It's also all about the fact that anyone else killed or injured is nothing more than collateral damage.

After all, the shooter just saved Burger King fifty bucks or so. :sarcasm:

much about firearms training do you?

A person using a weapon in an armed robbery is presumed to have the intent to use it to kill.

"It's all about their guns . It's all about playing cops n' robbers with live ammo and innocent bystanders. It's also all about the fact that anyone else killed or injured is nothing more than collateral damage."

Re-read your statement and tell me that you are not only opposed to guns, but have a hateful attitude towards tens of millions of your fellow Americans.

Tell me: do you have more sympathy for a crim with a gun than for a law-abiding citizen with a gun?

...that there is a strong possibility of getting shot when one leaves the relative safety of the home. If one doesn't wish to get shot, one should just stay at home. It's quite simple actually. The Constitution is very clear on this: citizens shall not be denied the right to carry automatic weapons and cop killer bullets for the monthly varmint hunt. This comes after the part that guarantees 24 hour access to home shopping but before the guarantee of having 6-pack abs.

In the mean time, you can take your absurdity and shove it.

I've changed my mind about some things over the years, others might say I have been educated. Regardless of what it says on the side of the police car, it is not the job of the police to protect you, that's your job. If you don't want to do it, that's your choice. The job of the police is to catch people who have committed crimes, though some would say that their job is also to protect the government and corporations. In any event, our forefathers didn't expect the police to do any of that, because there were no police. So in essence, we have the government and the police telling US what their job is. Does that sit well with you?

Yeah I have heard this before. It was the excuse anti-gunners used when Florida first incorporated CCW almost 15 years ago. They were all harping the streets will run red with blood, gun battles will be fought over minor arguements, blah blah blah. What we got was a whole lot of nothing. No blood, no gun fights in the streets from CCW, no blood baths from CCW, nothing.

As it turns out, CCW permit holders have been shown to be less likely to cause collateral damage during shoot-outs than regular police officers.

the dynamics of police shooting situations mean this is not necessarily due to less skill, etc.

police for example often go into situations where a civilian could choose to walk away, have a duty to apprehend a guy, etc.

what i am saying is that it is correct that police are not very skilled at firearms usage.

but comparing these statistics without taking into account the different dynamics of the shootings means it's not an exact comparison

regardless, the fact IS clear that collateral damage from civilians shooting is VERY rare

a robber. Unless the store was my own.

:popcorn:

Wow, it sure was lucky a customer was carrying a concealed weapon!

when in places where CWP are that prevalent, HIT THE DECK, and FIND COVER, effective if possible

(no kiddies the bathroom door is not that good at stopping ammo, just breaking line of fire... nor are the tables)

"Note to self...when in places where CWP are that prevalent, HIT THE DECK, and FIND COVER, effective if possible"


No, its not violent criminals causing you to "HIT THE DECK, and FIND COVER, effective if possible", just CWP carriers.


Disgusting.

I think he's a fucking asshole. He's damn lucky to be alive. And he's damn lucky he didn't shoot an innocent bystander by mistake.

too, sometimes.

We will never know for sure.

They are clueless.

On the other hand the perp won't be robbing another burger king for a while

Like a long while

Hope he enjoys his long dirt nap.

that is one nightmare for cops

<-------- know many a LEO that have raised this issue

One that some folks don't want to understand either

the cops in Florida are overwhelmingly in favor of legal concealed carry.

I would imagine that police in areas of the country where concealed carry is prohibited might have a different view. However even in Illinois some police support the concept.

For the first time since it was founded in 1928, the Illinois Sheriffs' Association announced its support for a concealed-carry handgun law in Illinois.

The association represents the 102 Illinois sheriffs. The association held its winter training conference at the iWireless Center in Moline that concluded Tuesday.

The association also appointed Henry County Sheriff Gib Cady as its president for 2009. Sheriff Cady has been a strong proponent of concealed-carry in Illinois.
http://www.illinoiscarry.com/

the above org represents the 102 sheriffs.

iow, ADMINISTRATORS.

so, it's good they support it, but what is more important is that most REAL cops support CCW.

cops are no more represented by their chief's/sheriffs, then you are (or are not) by your local mayor or governor.

and the VAST majority of those i work(ed) with, in three different states are too

generally speaking cop-o-crats (ie administrators and puppets for city govt. ) are against concealed carry

most street cops are for it

You realize the police are capable of missing too? Yet, they carry guns and will shoot an armed robber who does not submit.

Guess they must be fucking assholes too huh?

You need to go have a series of chats with one - soon.

This whole "gun = penis" fixation you have is a bit worrying. Try it, you'll
probably feel a whole lot better in a couple of years.

And that "deadly crossfire" bit people like you are always clanging on about?

A short course in statistics would help, or cognitive therapy can help get rid
of those irrational fears if you don't care to go the Freudian route.

Can't wait to see how you do with that.


Yuo DO know that females also CCW?


:rofl:

1 of the 3 in the holy trio of illogical anti civil rights arguments

the others are

1) the need canard

and...

well, i'll wait for #2. it invariably shows up

will pull through and the robber is off the street permanently. All of you that say well what if an innocent bystander would have been killed. Well none were and who is to say if the citizen with the CC permit wasn't there the robber wouldn't have ended up killing an innocent bystander either there or at some other robbery next week.

And some DUer's get off on this shit, huh?

:eyes:

he was stealing my money and threatening my life, screw Burger King. That is one reason I didn't go for the CCP myself. I read the laws and I wouldn't want to put myself in that position. If you do something like that you better make damn sure you are justified, it would make life hell for years if you weren't. After reading the laws I decided I didn't want that responsibility. If someone invades my house I have still have a gun if I really need it. As far as CC it would just be a pain in the ass to me. I have survived somehow 61 years without one. It would be uncomfortable to carry a gun and most places it is illegal to carry anyway. I wonder if the Burger King permitted weapons in their store?

" As far as CC it would just be a pain in the ass to me. I have survived somehow 61 years without one. It would be uncomfortable to carry a gun and most places it is illegal to carry anyway. I wonder if the Burger King permitted weapons in their store?"

Is it a pain to carry sometimes? Yeah it is but I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Most places it IS legal to carry. Many places have signs that say the unlicensed carrying of weapons is prohibited. As long as you have a CCL you are ok to carry in those places. Federal buildings and establishments that make more than 51% of their income from alcohol are also off limits.

:shrug:

Others however have made quite the opposite case for themselves.

do you use your car to force him to pull over?

But If I listened to some DUers I should have ran the other way and hid behind a bush hoping he wouldn't harm anyone.

oh wait, you can always elect to OBSERVE AND REPORT, but that doesn't take nearly the nad, does it?

I tried that. My wife and I followed a car that was weaving all over the place, rubbing guardrails, bumped a motorcycle, bunch of crazy crap, on 520 from Seattle, to Bellevue. The whole way we were reporting her position and activities to State Patrol. No one ever showed. We got to the end of 520, turned around, followed her back to Bellevue, where she got on I-90, off at 8th street, and roamed around in the city. State Patrol's dispatcher passed us off to Bellevue police, and this continued for a good 15-20 minutes. Finally, she was forced to stop at a red light because the car in front of her had to stop, and I jumped out of our car, and stood in front of her car, until the cops showed up.

She was whacked out on Vodka and some perscription drug.

I suppose I could have just continued to follow her, hoping that the cops would arrive eventually, but sometimes, it's worth it to take a risk, to put an end to a bad situation.

I am a activist and not just in politics.

someone did it it could save a life or several. I would report them to the police.

Fortunately the police arrived shortly thereafter.

David

If it's some rural road where nobody's around, I'd be happy to let him go and wrap around a tree if he's going to do that. If he's weaving down the highway, then I would seriously consider it if I thought I could pull it off without hurting anyone.

Neither is as urgent as a man confronting you or robbing a store in front of you. People drive home drunk every night, and most of them never hurt anybody. The same cannot be said of criminals aiming guns at people or otherwise threatening them with violence.

Have you ever been attacked by four guys at 2 AM while you were walking home from work? If you have, you would probably prefer to have a gun next time.

nothing more than a whim. When your already going on adrenaline, and not quite w/in society's accepted norms, (stealing is bad, stealing at gunpoint is worse), ther eis no telling what he might have done. There was a video about 6 months agowhere the owners of a liquor store was beaten, nearly to death, by a guy who thought he should get more money than he did when he held the place up.

First rule, don't steal; second rule, be aware of your surroundings. Sadly, the individual did not understand these two principles.

ago, after the robber got his loot he beat the hell out of the store owner with a steel pipe. Just for fun I guess.

Petty crime turns into murder or attempted murder when the guy panics, or even accidently pulls the trigger.

Man, if I was working for a minimum wage in Florida, working in that establishment, I'd seriously consider my life options.

In 2007 a Burger King in Avada, CO was robbed by masked men. Celia Meza, and employee of the Burger King, was shot and killed. Police initially identified the woman as Annette Arraici but later determined that Meza, whom they said was an undocumented worker from Mexico, used that name to work in the United States. It is too bad that a jerk with a concealed weapon decided to take on these robbers in Miami. After all, an innocent person could have been injured.

If I were working there, the mere fact that I was surrounded by people with guns, ready to use them anytime would creep me out.

But hey, I'm Canadian.

And a non-innocent person died.

I know I would. Seriously, why the shot at Florida? If you're going to be poor, you might as well do it someplace nice.

A poor armed robber got shot!!!

The humanity!







Good shoot.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/local_news/content/local_news/epaper/2008/11/26/1126dunkindonutsshooting.html

Neighborhood is going to hell.

Palm Beach seems like quite the scary place though.

David

get mugged in police stations? For that matter, how many armed robbers target gun stores? Hmmmmmm.

It was in Huntington West Virginia, that should tell you something right there.

I was across the street in a bar "meeting" with a couple of guys from the Pagans MC when it all happened. It was, without a doubt, one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The PD had the place surrounded in what seemed like a couple of seconds. It looked exactly like a scene from the Blues Brothers movie when Jake and Elwood were paying the taxes. It did kind of put a damper on the meeting.

There's only one donut shop, and there is nothing but a hotdog stand across the street.

I can't remember the name of it, or if it's even still there. As far as I can remember it wasn't any kind of national franchise. It was across from the Stoned Monkey, that's where our meeting took place. The hotdog place is a little further up the street towards campus. All this took place in the mid 90's, around the time the Pagans were trying to round up some recruits and expand turf.

on our hips. We can go back to shoot outs at high noon....calling people out in resturants and bars if they offend us somehow. yeah, it'll be great! Think of all the designer gun belts and jeweled holsters we could sell... gun belts for every day use....for evening wear....a whole new fashion industry...hey! we can use guns to fix the economy too!

:sarcasm:

David

but far from the historical truth

You know the eggheads that like to spend time at places like archives and have revised stupid shit like wills have found that weapon ownership in the old west was actually pretty low

Perhaps the cost of guns was part of it,

It ranged from a yearly pay, all of it, to six months when they were really affordable.

These days... they are cheap

Dear Lady:
Read up on the "Wild West" you refer to in your post and you'll find that the homicide rates, with very few exceptions, were FAR lower than what we experience in most cities today, on a population-adjusted basis. It turns out that an armed society is a polite society. There are real evil people in this world, sorry to say, and they do bad things to people like you and me. Feel free to remain unarmed...that is your right. Just don't expect me to conform to your way of seeing the world.

is not necessarily the best way to ensure social order. It works I guess, but an argument of force is not the result of any real desire for cooperation between the members of society.

A highly dispersed society is also a polite society. Ram a bunch of people together, make them poor and desperate and see how long it takes to piss them off. It could be that we need more firearms now because we have more people and dwindling natural resources to go around. Scarcity of resources foments social disruption.

how typical.

the "wild west" mythology was created by hollywood.

are you aware of the actual stats on homicide in the 'wild west'?

do you believe everything you see in movies?

The person using the best tactics wins most of the time no matter the weapon. Sometimes however shit happens.

Society should thank the shooter for helping take out the trash. :yourock:

I hope the good guy makes a complete and prompt recovery.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=25.824564,-80.186956&spn=0,359.997514&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=25.824653,-80.186957&panoid=j8Akurm254fuZhC2mUCL8A&cbp=12,303.07647060471027,,0,2.5418502202643074">Take a look around. Be sure to check out the homes across the street.

Thanks for the link.

to protect a stranger, you get shot but kill the bad guy. What other outcome might have happened? The bad guy takes a relatively small amount of money and runs off, and nobody gets shot? The bad guy shoots the clerk or someone else? But why would he do that if he got the money? Maybe it's not enough money? But how much money does he expect a BK to have on hand?

Look, call me naive, call me crazy, but carrying a gun in a BK seems like a ridiculous thing to do. So the guy had a gun. Maybe he would never have used it... maybe he never used it before that day. Maybe it was the other gun that caused him to use it. Now you have this so-called hero with a bunch of holes in him. Maybe that's what he wanted, and what he needed, to be the hero, to get attention for taking out the bad guy and saving the day. Maybe it's all good now, but man, all I see is a lot of blood. A lot of unnecessary blood, and a bunch of seriously traumatized people.

On the other hand, carrying a gun on a city street that's known for violence might be a good idea. But maybe just a vest is even better.

Maybe he was a criminal trying to rob the other criminal.

nobody ever got shot during an armed robbery before.
:eyes:
There are people who've been killed during arm robberies despite giving up their money, in case you didn't know. I have no clue what this guy would or wouldn't have done, but allegedly he went in to rob the place with a loaded gun. That kind of thing can easily turn bad, even if there were no armed customer with a gun permit.

Carrying a gun thereabouts has been pretty much SOP for 20 years.

occasionally the bad guys decide to shoot the employees or customers. Seems to me that carrying a concealed weapon in a fast food joint is a reasonable thing to do.

Hell, God doesn't even guarantee your safety in churches.

bet your family's life on a bunch of "maybe this/maybe that".

It's your right to do so.

criminals are not going to act reasonably. My son was a manager in a fast-food joint working his way through college. One Saturday night the place got robbed. He and his employees did as they had been told and trained, they cooperated, gave up all the cash in the till and one the dirtbags on the way out the door, turned around laughing, and emptied his pistol. All his bullets missed, but one.

As far as I am concerned, any armed robber deserves to be executed on the spot.

Maybe your keyboard is inherently evil, made you click this thread, just like another common inanimate object some of are familiar with that just does stuff on its own.

Hmm, wonder how successful a keyboard buy-back would be?

for the children blah blah

Cases like this one FAR OUTNUMBER what happened in the OP:

Boy, 15, arrested in shooting
Tue, Mar. 24, 2009

Police have arrested a 15-year-old boy in connection with the weekend shooting death of a 17-year-old boy near downtown Wichita.

http://www.kansas.com/690/story/745451.html

(Not to mention of course, that firearms are one of the leading causes of death of American children). Not that the gun proliferation ,advocates would ever accept responsibility for that. Too much "me, me, me" entitlemet- and to much irrational fear and rationalization of obsession).

Just babies. Because you can't figure out a better social system than dog eat dog.

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm

We live in a country of three hundred million people. More kids than that are going to be killed by falling off swingsets, but we're not banning those; a LOT more kids than that are going to be killed in car crashes, but we don't prevent kids from riding in cars. It has nothing to do with "social systems." It has to do with the fact that there's no such thing as a perfectly safe world, and it's absurd to pretend that there is. Anybody can die at any time, and while that may not be reassuring, it's also a fact of life that we need to accept.

1,071 children 5 and under were killed in transportation related incidents in the same year. I guess those kids don't matter to you though.

David

You have a 15 year old drug dealer shoots a 17 year old drug customer.

Fifteen years old and selling dope on a street corner at midnight. Bet he is a member of the National Honor Society at his high school too. Likely he was stealing money from his mother's purse when he was 8. This is NOT some toddler mistaking a real gun for a toy. This is a CAREER CRIMINAL committing cold-blooded crime of opportunity. There is NO law extant or one you can propose that would have influenced the little miscreant's behavior one bit.

The only law that stops thugs like that is the law of gravity......and only then if the rope is short enough to keep their feet from touching the ground.

shooting people.

how is this the fault of people with valid CCW's?

answer: it's isn't.

it's irrelevant.

firearms are nowhere NEAR the leading cause of death of children, even if you include criminal gangbanger pieces of shit.

check the stats.

In a future gun-grabber press release: "They need to ban that gun forum, too many crazies there, some knuckledraggingneanderthalgunloon wants children to join militias!"

You have a CCP and you pull your weapon in this situation, you better not be up for "exchanging" fire. If you commit to fire, you commit to at least a double-tap at a minimum. Likely, you've barely gotten "drop it!" out before the first casing ejects out the side.

oh well, souvenir

I would definitely not work there. I'm sure the employees knew that eventually something like this would happen eventually.

Not much good in this story.

And before you ask, yes, that applies to reports of such "citizen justice" going horribly wrong, too.

That forum was created for a reason.

I'll bet the citizen had to get new shorts. Thank goodness he made it out alive. And good on him for deciding to not just allow the bad guy to win.
As a result of his actions,there are people who will not be victims.

It sounds like cowboyism.

counseled him a bit first, offered him a donut. Usually it's all a big misunderstanding when a guy storms into a restaurant with a gun and starts demanding money. That's the way some people communicate. He wasn't really demanding money, he was crying out for some love and understanding.

Had I been the customer with the carry permit, I would have had to make a determination about just how dangerous the robber was.

If I felt he was merely after the money and presented no danger to the employees or other customers, I would have merely observed and waited to describe the robber to the police.

If he looked or acted unstable or displayed erratic behavior, I might have decided to draw my weapon. This would NOT be an easy decision and is one that I hope I never have to make.

In the Tampa Bay neighborhood where I lived we had simple robberies and also robberies that resulted in murder even after the clerk had turned over the money.

That robber will not be robbing anyone in the future.

I find all the second-guessing kind of amusing, but disappointing.

There are customers in the store. Robber walks into the store, shoots the clerk while customers are within a few feet of him , goes around the counter and empties the register and leaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cD7qv_OwIw


Videos of robbers shooting clerks in spite of the clerks compliance.

Here is one where the clerk is shot in order to get her to move faster. She screams a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvi9VHeuVu0

Another robber shooting the clerk,this one in the leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNJieQGFMxE



I can't post the videos of robbers graphically killing store clerks, there are lots of them.

Also a lot of videos of robbers loosing gunfights.



Cowboyism huh?:eyes:

Your idea of reality is not accurate. The videos above have recorded reality.

Guys walk in the store, shoot, take stuff, and leave.

In St Pete, the guys walked into the store, shot the storekeeper's brother who was standing by the door, then shot the storekeeper, while the storekeeper's small children were behind the counter. And I will note, that the reason the robber knew to shoot the man standing by the door was because he and his brother are Vietnamese. So there is another element to this kind of robbery. These robbers did three or four stores owned by immigrants.

I hope the pieces of shit go to jail for a long time, or get killed. Whichever is more permanent.

- The thread is still active. How is moving it to another forum censorship?
- Does that accusation of "not being a liberal" and "shame on you" apply to the mods too? After all, it was them who moved the thread, not me.
- Do you know why this particular forum exists?

The moderators are doing the fine job they always do.

David

The moderators are doing their job, of course the accusation doesn't apply. It applies to those who wish to stifle debate. I don't see why people want these topics moved out of general discussion or LBN so fast. Other topics that have their own forum aren't usually asked to be banished to a place where many DU members won't enter the dreaded gungeon. What are your motives for asking it to be moved?

David

Are you going to complain to Elad for coding it in?

I'm not the one who reacted to a thread being moved like a 7yo who's being told it's time to go to bed.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

...that you produce a weapon and point it while committing a crime, you've crossed a serious line and have put yourself at risk of being dead from it. So sorry, but the perp signed his consent to die when he pointed his pistol at an innocent person.

If you don't like it do something change your state and local laws about cc. Now me I love Oklahoma's laws and I hope for them to pass open carry I made phone calls to my rep to support it that is how you pursue things in our Republic based Democracy.

And if it was me with or without my wife and kids I would flame broil his ass like a whopper too. I qualified expert with my m9 when I was a 60 gunner, and shoot steel every chance I get there will be no cross fire. ONE SHOT ONE KILL is the mantra of this old infantry soldier.

And I don't advocate it but it is only a misdemeanor to cc with out a license in Oklahoma §21-1272 Section 1276 very seldom is it enforced out in BFE where I live now that is down right liberal of them BTW I have a license.

That says it all.

of the evil gun lobby.

There was, a few years back, an extremely deceptive TV spot aired obstensibly as a public service announcement. It started by showing a four year old looking kid stacking chairs and boxes to get a shoe box stashed high on a closet shelf. A dramatic close up of the wide eyed-toddler as he retrieves an M9 Beretta pistol; fade to black; sound of a gunshot and the announcer sonorously intones, "Every day, 300 children are shot by guns............."

A statistic which is blindly parroted to this day. Well, that works out to 109,500 kids a year! It's still damn near 75,000 kids if them nasty guns take weekends and Federal holidays off.

That image is supposed to disguise the reality most "kids" shot are like this 18 year old pillar of his community.

"On Tuesday, Jean-Baptiste was out on bond awaiting trial for the carjacking charge when he walked into a Burger King at 5398 Biscayne Blvd. around 4 p.m.

Wearing a ski mask and black gloves, say police, the teen pointed a semiautomatic Bryco .380 at the people behind the counter."