GUNS IN THE NEWS--November 6, 2003

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following guidelines:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net within the past 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. (On Mondays, stories that were originally posted to the 'Net over the weekend - Friday night through Sunday - are considered current. This allows for the fact than many people are off-line over the weekend, allowing the Monday thread to be a weekend summary.)
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
4 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
5 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.

"CHANDLER, Ariz. - Cincinnati Reds outfielder Dernell Stenson was found dead early Wednesday on a residential street after he was shot and apparently run over in a Phoenix suburb, police said.
Chandler police said the death was being treated as a homicide. A man was being held by police for questioning. No charges had been filed as of early evening.
Stenson, 25, made his major league debut this season and played 37 games for the Reds. He hit .247 with three home runs and 13 RBIs — his homer accounted for Cincinnati's final run of the season. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031106/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_reds_player_killed_8

You might recall promising outfielder Lyman Bostock was shot and killed some years ago. The killer thought Bostock was someone else and fired. More recently, Steeler linebacker Joey Porter was one of several innocent bystanders shot in an incident that left one dead and five wounded outside a Denver sports bar.

PORTSMOUTH — Somewhere between a Food Lion and home, Temesha Greene noticed a van following her.

When she got to her driveway that August night, a man pulled out a gun.

Greene pulled out her own gun.

The man fired at her.

She fired back.

He missed.

She didn’t.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=61859&ran=100781

"Police say a man was hospitalized with life-threatening injuries after he was shot in the chest Wednesday afternoon, KMBC's Peggy Breit reported.
The shooting happened during a carjacking near St. John and Monroe streets, Breit reported.. Officers said a green Buick LeSabre was stolen by a two men in the parking lot of St. John Market at about 4 p.m.
Police said the victim was coming out of the store when he was approached by two men as he tried to get into his car. One of the men shot the victim, who went back into the store for help. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_kmbc/1863700

Dog shoots man
A French hunter was shot after he left a loaded shotgun in the boot of his car and one of the two dogs in there stepped on the trigger, police said yesterday.
The man, from the village of Espelette in the Basque region, was treated in hospital for hip injuries.

...like the French these days.

"Police said a gunman tried to rob the owner of the Marathon gas station on Buckeye Avenue. A clerk saw what was happening and ran outside and shot the suspect."


"The suspect and clerk fired their guns. The suspect was hit. His condition is unknown."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=387&ncid=387&e=1&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_wews/1864239

"LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. disco queens Sister Sledge visited Britain's parliament on Wednesday as part of a campaign to combat rising gun crime."


"Joni and Debbie Sledge added their voices to the Disarm Trust campaign at the House of Commons on the day a parliamentary report into gun crime was published."


"Joni Sledge said the increase in gun crime in Britain was frightening."

"The British parliamentary all-party report has been compiled against a backdrop of growing fears about crimes in Britain involving guns. Last month a seven-year-old London girl was shot in the back as she ran away from a hitman who had gunned down her father."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031106/people_nm/people_sistersledge_dc_1

"The attempted raid took place at McColl's Liquor Store in Ellenbrook Green, Ipswich at 7.50pm yesterday."

"The foiled raid is the latest in a string of incidents to target small businesses in Ipswich – and the eighth in Suffolk in 16 days. The firearms incident also came as a report by MPs was today expected to call for a ban on the sale and importation of replica firearms."

"As detective sergeant Jed Carlon led the investigation in Ipswich today, Pubwatch chairman Michael Collins warned all local businesses to beware of raiders. He said: "I do advise all businesses in Ipswich, to watch out for people standing around on corners, watching your movements. I think everyone should be on their guard at this time of year."


"MPs were also expected to say more police should be armed to cope with increasing gun crime - there were a record 10,250 offences in the year to March."

http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/Content/news/story.asp?datetime=05+Nov+2003+15%3A36&tbrand=ESTOnline&tCategory=News&category=News&brand=ESTOnline&itemid=IPED05+Nov+2003+09%3A37%3A19%3A187

"A second person has died in a shooting at a local company Thursday morning, and three others were seriously injured.
The first victim was pronounced dead at the scene. The second victim, a 60-year-old man, died at Bethesda North Hospital just before 11 a.m.
The shooter reportedly entered the company's facility and used two handguns in the shooting.
Several businesses and remain locked down while police search for the suspect. Schools in the Lakota district are locked down as well. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_wlwt/1864483

"Authorities in Greensboro are investigating a shooting at Ghassan's Restaurant on High Point Road Thursday.
Investigators said workers were getting ready to open when two men with guns walked in and tried to rob the restaurant. One man was shot in the back. He has been taken to Moses Cone Hospital and is in critical condition."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_wxii/1864728

"Police have three people in custody who they believe may know something about an early Thursday morning northwest Houston apartment shooting that injured a 2-year-old girl.
Houston police responded to the shooting call in the 15500 block of Northborough and Rush Creek around 4:30 a.m. Thursday.
Investigators said the girl was walking through the living room when someone fired shots through the door of the family's apartment. Investigators said they believe the shooting occurred after two people in the apartment were involved in an argument. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_kprc/1864256

"Miami police are looking for two men they say robbed a bank and got away with a lot of cash.
Police said around 11 a.m. Wednesday, two armed men wearing hoods stormed into the Trans-Atlantic Bank at 102 N.W. 37th Ave. One of the men pointed a machine gun at bank employees while the second man went behind the counter, emptied several cash doors and took a large amount of cash.
Investigators said that the robbery was similar to one at the First Bank of Miami located at 3600 S.W. 8th St. Friday. They believe it may have been committed by the same men. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_wplg/1863293

I know you are quoting the headline, BUT
The article does not state that the firearm in question was fired. The perps have not been caught.
How can they tell the weapon used is a machinegun if it was not fired and has not been recovered??
:shrug:

Whether or not it was fired is immaterial.

:shrug:

One of the men pointed a machine gun at bank employees while the second man went behind the counter, emptied several cash doors and took a large amount of cash.

I'm sure even aomeone with a limited knowledge of firearms can recognize a machine gun.

:shrug:

...don't you agree that society would be well-served of people like this did NOT have access to that sort of weapon?

However finding a solution that will be effective without depriving law abiding of their rights is another matter alltogether.

I wanted to point out that the headline is most likely incorrect and an attempt by the author/editor to sensationalize the story.

...due to space constraints in newspaper columns. Since "machine gun" takes up less space that "semi-automatic weapon", that may be why they chose the words they did.

What about truthful and ethical reporting. Should this not override space constraints??? If space is short why not just use "gun"??

Why can't you admit that gun control is needed in this country, and stories like this are the reason why?

It's very likely these suspects have prior criminal records. Armed robbers usually do.

To effectively reduce ALL crime we need to address the root causes of crime. Some of these underlying causes are probably unemployment, gangs, drug addiction and income disparity.

Removing firearms from the equation will not reduce overall crime.

Work on the root causes, and control access to weapons.

Result? Less crime.

has not reduced the overall crime rate.

And they need to be kept out of the hands of criminals.

into irrreversible tragedies.

the ability to defend themselves and their families from criminals.

thanks to the corrupt gun industrry and the GOP....

so much for meaningful debate.
:shrug:

That's why we need reasonable guncontrol measures to keep them away from the criminals, while allowing access by others.

is sufficient

in Boston's Operation Ceasefire

"A Spotsylvania County man has been charged with killing his wife, who was found dead in their home Tuesday night with multiple gunshot wounds.
Cindy Cantrell, 37, was dead on the floor at 3736 Massaponax Church Road when police and rescue workers arrived shortly after 9:30 p.m., Sheriff's Capt. Mike Timm said.
Her husband, 52-year-old William Stephen "Steve" Cantrell, was later charged with second-degree murder and using a firearm in the commission of a felony.
Timm said the Cantrells were having a domestic dispute when the shooting occurred. Timm said it was not yet clear what the argument was about, but both had been drinking."

http://www.freelancestar.com/News/FLS/2003/112003/11062003/1159061

Another family made safer with guns.

Why don't you admit that machineguns are already controlled as tightly as may be by law?

...then perhaps they aren't as tightly controlled as they could be.

This machine gun reference was very likely intended to produce an emotional response and sell more newspapers.

I'm sure even aomeone with a limited knowledge of firearms can recognize a machine gun.

Sure, but the problem is they are often wrong.

Even an expert cannot tell the diffence between a semiautomatic and an automatic weapon without inspecting it closely, and for absolute certainty a test-firing is highly desirable. When people get prosecuted by the feds for possing unregistered machine guns a test is always performed by the BATFE to verify that the weapon does indeed fire more than one round per trigger pull.

A weapon may look for all the world like an automatic, say an AK or M16 type rifle but have semiautomatic internals. A semiautomatic may look normal but be crudely modified to fire automatically in an uncontrolled manner. A semiautomatic may fire multiple rounds when it has not been properly maintained or assembled.

On edit: If it really WAS a machine gun one can be virtually certain that the robbers were not in legal possession of it. All lawfully owned machine guns and machine gun owners are registered with the BATFE. With only a couple of exceptions in the history of the National Firearms Act (i.e. since 1934) all machine guns used in crimes are possessed illegally.

... whether or not the gun was fully automatic is immaterial. The main point is that it was not a single-fire gun - it was one designed to fire multiple times in rapid succession.

And simply calling it a "gun" would not convey that meaning.

...that accurately described....any rifle but a single shot type.

...like you?!?
Or were you thinking bank tellers in Miami must know a machine gun when they see one...ala Miami VIce.

We are supposed to wish a few bank patrons had been shot so we would know for sure...

Really, do you doubt they had a machine gun? I don't doubt the witnesses know perfectly well what they saw. <sarcasm>What a shame machine guns suffer this unfortunate stigma, when so many are good, responsible machine guns.</sarcasm>

Perhaps if some of the law abiding customers had had their own machine guns the resulting firefight would have been more "satisfying," somehow.

You mean you can tell the difference between a semiauto M16 and a full auto M16 from across the room in someone else's hand?

More like it was a semi auto and the person was wrong in saying it was a machine gun, could that be the reason? Since no shot was fired, we know they didnt hear the difference between semi and full auto, and there is no visual difference.

They had a gun pointed at them, they are going to think the worst.

Ho-kay....

"They had a gun pointed at them, they are going to think the worst."
And justly so.

:hi:

that is a machine gun to illustrate my point???
A semi auto Uzi looks the same as a full auto Uzi.
A semi auto AR 15 looks the same as a full auto M 16.
A semi auto FAL looks the same as a full auto FAL.
A semi auto CETME looks the same as a full auto CETME.
A semi auto M1A looks the same as a full auto M14.
A semi auto <insert weapon here> looks the same as a full auto <insert weapon here>.

Really, do you doubt they had a machine gun?
YES I DO.
Most people including ATF agents cannot tell the difference between a semi-auto sporter and a full-auto machine gun just by looking at it.

If the weapon was not fired and is not in the posession of the Police HOW can it be definitively stated the weapon in question was a machine gun???
:wtf:
I am ignoring the rest of your post as flamebait.
:freak:

It wouldn't be the first time its been posted here.

:shrug:

Airsoft replicas are often very realistic these days.

since semiauto guns looks EXACTLY like a machine gun. And machine guns have been banned for a LONG time.

That is the point. Calling a rifle by the wrong name is not immaterial, but I guess it doesnt matter if you call everything by the wrong name.

...a combination AK-57, Uzi, radar, laser, triple-barrelled, double-scoped, heat-seeking shotgun.

"Two men were fatally wounded and a third is in critical condition following a shooting early Thursday at a near North Side bar.
When San Antonio police arrived at David's Bar in the 1500 block of Blanco Road at 2 a.m., they found Jose Morones, 21, and a 31-year-old man dead inside the bar with multiple gunshot wounds.
A third victim managed to make it to a downtown hospital and was transported to University Hospital in critical condition. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_ksat/1864796

A Boston man accused of killing one person and wounding four others in a shooting rampage near the Dudley Square bus station Wednesday apparently knew one of his victims quite well.
Lamar Tillery, 34, was arraigned on murder and assault charges in Boston's Roxbury District Court Thursday morning, pleading not guilty to murder and bank robbery charges as he stood behind a courtroom door, out of sight of the dozens of family members of victims targeted in the shooting spree.
NewsCenter 5's Gail Huff reported that Tillery and one of the victims who was fatally shot, Charles Johnson, 52, knew each other and reportedly had been friends for many years. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031106/lo_WCVB/1864898

"LICKING COUNTY -- A 50-year-old Utica deer hunter is in fair condition after jumping from a tree stand to dodge gunfire, according to authorities.
Tom Orriss was flown by helicopter to Grant Medical Center in Columbus after he sustained injuries after jumping out of a tree stand along the 14000 block of Vance Road, according to a report from the Licking County Sheriff's Office.
Orriss, who was hunting deer with his bow, said an unidentified man was shooting at him and caused him to leap from the stand Sunday, according to the report. "

http://www.newarkadvocate.com/news/stories/20031106/localnews/593614.html

What's that up in the tree with a bow? It looks like a deer!! Bang! Bang!

"(West Valley City-AP) -- An elderly couple was found dead in their home and West Valley police say it looks like a murder-suicide.
They were called out to the home last night after worried family members called them, saying they hadn't heard from the couple in about five days.
Investigators say it appears the man shot the woman then turned the gun on himself.
The couple appears to have been dead for several days, but an autopsy will be done to determine when the couple died. "

http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=57080

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/2608035/detail.html

"Police say the 49-year-old woman who owned the restaurant -- a retired Detroit cop who was a former member of Mayor Coleman Young's security team -- tried to hold the suspects in the parking lot until police arrived. But when the two men attempted to speed away, and nearly ran over one of her employees, she fired a single shot that apparently struck both men, according to police."

You're righteous baby! Are you single?