On guns, and the war on drugs and murican guns

there is this but they could not be coming from the US, and of course the Mexican Army is giving them to the drug dealers meme forming

I get why... but here are some factoids for folks to consider... not that this will change any views by the way... facts never get in the way...

The standard issue rifle issue to the Mexican infantry is the FN-FAL... chambered for the same round as the M-16... none has ever been captured in the hands of the bad guys....

The Federal Police gets issued M-16s... mostly they come from captured stores...

While the locals at times get AKs, issued from captured stores

The standard side arm for the Mexican army is the 1911 .45 built in mexico under license

Military Spec Ops teams upgraded from UZI to MP-5 and other specialty weapons a while ago

Oh and the previous gun used by the army was the M1-Garand... they're still in storage and nobody has seen M-1 in the hands of the bad guys...

The point I am trying to make is that I know why some folks NEED to believe that this is happening because of a corrupt army and all that...

Now here is something else, the UNAM ran a survey of trusted organizations... and the army and the church came on top (in the 80% territory)... with the police and political parties way in the bottom (like in the 15% territory)

Why am I offering this? Well, at times it is good to have some facts when discussing issues... even serious issues like this.

Oh and Heavier weapons, of course you will find Humvees, and 50 cal HMG all over the place, with a few 30 cal LMGs (made in the US) with the army

The APC is the SEDENA 2000, locally built under license from the Swiss,. and the navy actually builds its own frigates and lo and behold they actually caught a U-boat a while ago... you read right, a U-Boat...as in WW II vintage U-Boat, with drugs on board. The choppers the navy flies are german...

Yep, there is that sense that they don't want to fully depend on US supplies oh and there is more, the Navy is actually participating, for the first time, in exercises off the Florida Coast, next month.

I thought some actual facts might be a good idea to bring on to the table

It only took you three lines to show you know nothing of what you're talking about. The FAL is chambered in 7.62x51 NATO, aka .308 Winchester. The M-16 is chambered in 5.56 NATO, less than half as powerful as the .308. Aside from that, Mexico's standard issue rifle until 2006 was not the FN-FAL, but the HK G3, which also fires 7.62 NATO but is completely different mechanically. Mexico's current standard rifle is called the FX-05, a domestically designed rifle chambered in 5.56 which is something of a knockoff of the HK G36. It's likely that a lot of G3s remain in service, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Army

Apart from that, the reports I've heard indicate that many of the weapons used by the Mexican drug cartels are fully automatic. Full-auto firearms are extremely difficult and expensive for civilians to obtain in the US. It's beyond absurd to think that American full-auto owners, who pay several thousand dollars for each of their firearms and go through rigorous background checks, would risk doing a decade or more in federal prison so they could sell weapons to Mexican gangsters at a huge loss.

What makes much more sense is people in current and former Central American war zones raising cash by sending weapons north for the Mexican cartels. The US and Soviet Union flooded those areas with arms during the Cold War, so there are plenty of guns to go around for enterprising criminals. And if Mexicans rate the police so low as a trusted organization, I don't doubt that some of their armories are being emptied in exchange for drug money.

And as for other weapons, like semi-auto rifles and handguns, the Mexican government still hasn't released any figure indicating the total number of guns they've reclaimed that were traced to the US vs. guns that were not traced to the US. They said that they requested trace information on 2,000 some guns from the BATF, but that means nothing until they release the total of US guns vs. non US guns they've seized, which to my knowledge they refuse to do.

Also... you need to cut back on the ellipses... sometimes one period is all it takes, you know... learn to punctuate correctly...

shows you have no clue

By the way, look for IMAGES on the web of Mexican troops and SHOW ME a troop (not a federal police, I can tell the difference) with an M-16

Here you go

http://militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/production_variants_of_the_fal

I hate it when people try to get cute ...

And when did I say that Mexican troops carry M16s? They carry either G3s or FX-05s. The FAL was never a standard issue Mexican weapon; a few military police carry them and that's it. The G3 was Mexico's standard rifle for the last few decades. Most Google Image pics of Mexican troops show them with G3s.

Here's the Wikipedia page for the 5.56 FAL derivative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FARA_83
Looks like not many were made, and I don't think many of the ones that were left Argentina. All the FAL collectors I've talked to say that 5.56 FALs are as rare as hen's teeth. If you think differently, point me to one article about the Mexican military using FARA-83s.

Here's a friendly tip: quit while you're ahead. Don't destroy what credibility you have left by flinging more false information around.

you missed the ones in Brazil

Regardless

I WAS THERE when the switch occurred... as in living, breathing the debate both in the chambers of San Lazaro (the Congress) and the papers...

And the US Embassy WAS PISSED that the Mexican Army DID NOT adopt the M-16

The Army put it plainly... we do not want to depend on US stores.

Something about 1848 and that little soiree, so perhaps they are the heavier round... so fucking big deal, fact is they did NOT adopt the M-16 and that was a small incident between the US (or rather the manufacturers who also bid) and the Mexican Secretary of Defense, a four star general

I am sure you will also correct me on that... after all you were there.

And please do show me a Mexican Trooper with an M-16...

I know WHY they were not issued those...

go ahead, find it.

So tell me (and yes you will find some older US Naval Vessels in the Mexican Navy Service) correct me, what else is wrong? And do you have a fucking clue how the Mexican Military works? I do... but don't let those little factoids stop your ahem overcorrecting because we need to prove just how much we know...

He never said the Mexican Army issued the M-16. He said the M-16 is chambered in 5.56mm, and the FAL (which apparently was also not a standard issue to the Mexican Army) is chambered in .308. You originally claimed they were chambered for the same round, which is completely untrue, save a rare frankenfal that does not pertain to Mexico. If you want to claim, based on that rare, non-applicable issue of a 5.56mm variant, that the FN FAL is chambered for 5.56mm, then the SKS is a muzzle loading black powder weapon, because, hey, I can find an esoteric production run of exactly that. I'm also willing to bet, that of the weapons that CAN be traced back to the US, some percentage of them probably ARE FN-FAL's. L1A1's or otherwise.

That's not a subtle difference or mistake. If you're going to romp around 'educating people', by all means, do some research. What you may or may not have heard, even on the floor of the Mexican Congress, may not apply to reality outside the walls of the building you were in at the time.


I was actually interested to learn Mexico used the G3, from pictures I had always casually assumed they used CETME's.

______________________________
The L1A1's magazine well was also fitted to take the 30 round Bren Light Machine gun magazine without any further modification. Below are more details on the adoption of each type. As a rule the L1A1 was semi-automatic only. The difference in tooling patterns meant that parts are not interchangeable between the two variants.

______________________________


Not only is it wrong about the chambering of the L1A1 and FN-FAL rifle the above quote is total Bullshit as well.

The L1A1's mag well was NOT fitted to the Bren. The Bren was originally chambered in the 303 british round. There was a variant made in 7.62 X 51 (the cartridge that goes in the L1A1 and FAL) and THAT 30 ROUND MAG WAS MADE TO FIT THE L1A1. Note the order of events there?

AS a rule the BRITISH L1A1 had a selector lever made that attempted to prohibit full auto fire. Full auto fire could still be selected however by opening up the rifle and then moving the selector. The rifle we still full auto - just more difficult to select it. Note that this was the BRITISH issue only! The difference in tooling patterns meant that SOME parts were not interchangeable. Only about 5 percent (just off the top of my head but better than the dumb ass in the citation) are NOT interchangeable.

Note the Falkan war please. British troops often captured Argentine FAL mags fully loaded and used them in their L1A1 rifles. The Argentine rifle (FAL) however, will not accept the L1A1 mag.

Please get some more information on this subject because it is FULL of inaccuracies!

I know about guns

The argument of what weapon to adopt after the MI-Garand happened when I was still living in the country

We got to see the arguments on the paper, and other media

Even the embassy issued a statement angry that the army did not adopt the M-16

And when the first troops, mostly MPs, were issued the FALs, it was amazing... as they had to be retrained away from the M-1

Hell, they even had to change the bayonets... so as they cycled the weapons, they also changed those.

Oh and they had the same problem with the FAL some other armies have had... and of course our gun nuts may know about, it, chances are not really

I always feel embarrassed to talk to you, because you are always so better informed than I am.

I'm always behind the times, lol.

I wish I were up to your speed.

Do you think this has anything to do with the drugs, or is an unrelated emblem of psychopathology in that region.

I recognize this is slightly off topic, but I would love to know your opinion about it.

Who is responsible, and why?

it is part of the psychology of a very sick city...

in El Paso and have seen first hand the reports and police efforts to end the killings. As stated already, the killings were well before the eruption of drug violence.

______________________________
The L1A1's magazine well was also fitted to take the 30 round Bren Light Machine gun magazine without any further modification. Below are more details on the adoption of each type. As a rule the L1A1 was semi-automatic only. The difference in tooling patterns meant that parts are not interchangeable between the two variants.

______________________________


Not only is it wrong about the chambering of the L1A1 and FN-FAL rifle the above quote is total Bullshit as well.

The L1A1's mag well was NOT fitted to the Bren. The Bren was originally chambered in the 303 british round. There was a variant made in 7.62 X 51 (the cartridge that goes in the L1A1 and FAL) and THAT 30 ROUND MAG WAS MADE TO FIT THE L1A1. Note the order of events there?

AS a rule the BRITISH L1A1 had a selector lever made that attempted to prohibit full auto fire. Full auto fire could still be selected however by opening up the rifle and then moving the selector. The rifle we still full auto - just more difficult to select it. Note that this was the BRITISH issue only! The difference in tooling patterns meant that SOME parts were not interchangeable. Only about 5 percent (just off the top of my head but better than the dumb ass in the citation) are NOT interchangeable.

Note the Falkan war please. British troops often captured Argentine FAL mags fully loaded and used them in their L1A1 rifles. The Argentine rifle (FAL) however, will not accept the L1A1 mag.

Please get some more information on this subject because it is FULL of inaccuracies!

I dare you

Double dare you

I can bet you will find the guys in black, aka the Federal Police

Not the Army

Go on son

After all you were living there when the switch happened... I am sure of that... NOT

Free fucking clue, I was, I lived down there, I saw the turn over, I saw the mess

I saw the anger when the US bid was rejected for the FN Fal, circa 1984

Noticed that the wiki source will also be called bullshit

I get it

This we may be part of the problem does not go well with gun nuts

or were you perhaps referring to the FN light machine gun?

You should probably take a break, go back, and re-form your original post with some solid research. Don't claim to be setting facts straight when you've got bullshit all over your hands.

noted

And you are telling me the Mexican Government is lying too

Got it

I guess you can trust the drug dealers

Got it

:-)

There are days I wonder about gun nuts

As I said, I KNOW why you need to believe this is a lie

I get it

but you are wrong

But I get it

Violates your reality and your sense of reality that perhaps we are part of the problem

And YES the 90% number IS A LIE!

after all the SPOKESMAN to the White House National Security Council also used that number

He is lying too I guess

You can trust the drug dealers now... of course you do

Go on...

After all we could not have anything to do whit this problem... whatsoever

:sarcasm:

And an ATF agent under oath to congress has said so.

but you keep living that fantasy

Those of us who have seen the traffic with our own lying eyes know a little better

Now off to the ignore list you go

Funny, it is quite full of doctrinaire gun nuts who NEED TO BELIEVE

Very funny.

Oh, and if you watched the ATF give testimony to Congress about three weeks back you would have seen the ATF agent state that the 90% figure was wrong also. The Mexican government simply will not give the U.S. all the serial numbers. Wonder why? Or do you want to reveal in you ignorance some more.

_______________________________________
The U.S. government rarely conducts end-use checks on weapons it has exported, greatly facilitating the diversion of weapons. Between 1989 and 1993 the State Department approved 108 licenses for the export of over $34 million of small arms to Mexico, but it performed only three follow-up inspections to ensure that the weapons were in the intended hands.
_______________________________________

http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol3/v3n10arms.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Army#Assault_Rifle

By the way the carbine is new, and probably MPs attached to paratroop units

But I am sure those of you who lived down there know this better

And to the mods

Let me tell you, this is more for GD, but not surprised you felt you had to move it to the gungeon... after all there will be US troops dying on mexican soil and I can count on those threads moved to dungeons too...

The lesson is... don't try to educate people

Wikipedia

Noted

After all it does violate reality... or your perceived reality

Noted.

mean something...?

:rofl:

Sure as hell not civilian straw purchasers. It would take 4-6+ months just to get your tax stamp, not to mention the $7500+ price tag for an UZI(or similar).

and they are not full auto when they get down there, some are converted, some are not

You do the math

I mean, you bring into the country a weapon illegally, you think anybody will give a shit if you actually convert the damn thing?

By the way, both Obama and Calderon said this

I may even add the SPOKESMAN for the US National Security Council said as much as well to Mexican Media

:-)

Or should I call this the magical thinking again?

I have no problem saying "I'm wrong" if you can provide a link from a reliable source that back's up your claim.

so why bother... and yes I have posted links in the past

But for muricans they cannot be reliable

Oh wait CNN, has a story from LAST week on one of the many arsenals captured, only reason they covered it... somebody unimportant was in-country with a massive security apparatus that I went HOLEEE SHIT!

If he wasn't going to open it the first fuckin 8 times why the fuck do you feel the need to post it another 8 fucking times.

Jesus tits dude you fucking replyed to the same fucking post TWICE with the same fucking link.

don't care

Is proof that you're mind is sealed and unwilling to accept new idea's.

Yeah sure they spam or post something retarded now, but what about on a different thread, on a different topic he may or may no have insight into?

Call me weird but I don't like to burn bridges or shut doors... it get's cold in the winter though...

and they cannot reach you

I used to hold that view, some years back

I've only used ignore on people who post "YOU CAN LOSE X LB'S IN x DAYS FOR ONLY $X!!!!"

if you were here during crazy season it would make sense

Then it really gets CRAAAAZZZZYYYYY

That showed a 3 bolt actions, an AK, a vamint AR-15 with no sights, and 2 machine guns?

The one that also didn't say where ANY of the guns came from?

it included a tommy gun

Different shootout, different place... about an hour from Tulatzingo...

Of course there is also the one with the Barrett sniper system captured the same day in Sinaloa

And oh so many others

Now I got to see with my own eyes both AR-15, and AK

And something else, that most people don't believe... truly finders keepers and bigger than most of these toys

I think this will be sufficient to make the point

Sorry for the FNN link, but hey they had a photo

Much appreciated on the picture, but some of those aren't even available on the US market. No doubt most of those AR's came from the U.S., but how many are from straw purchasers?

Also, is it just me or is the FN P90 in the 6th photo down have a orange tip on the suppressor?

I am sure some are coming from the usual arms dealers that supply other hot zones

Syriana is not just a movie, if you get me drift

agencies say otherwise, I'd say it is 90% and if not 90% very close, like in the upper eighties, that comes from anecdotally what I saw as a medic... down there

Plenty of AR, and AKs, and the AKs did not come from Chaves's SA, as he wasn't even in charge back then. perhaps a major in the Army.

This has been going on for quite a while... just now got people's attention

They're getting grenades from Korea and military grade weapons from somewhere. Why bother with expensive US semi-auto's....

I'd have to agree with fact check which put's it at 30-40%

Hence the disparity.

Even so some black paint and you have an effective fear inducer.

I thought you said no FALs had been seized from the drug cartels?

Apart from that, these photos have no bearing on the total number of weapons seized from cartels and their countries of origin. There are many AR-type rifles shown, but how do you know they came from US civilians and not from Central America? The US dumped plenty of M16s down there during the Cold War.

I'm still waiting on hard statistical data showing that a majority of Mexican crime guns come from US civilians.

or under the NFA Title 2/Class III route with a Form 4.



I see a whole bunch of M203 grenade launchers and M203 rounds; M4's with military/police restricted uppers (Title 1 civilian barrels must be 16" minimum, those are probably 10.5"); and grenades. Those are NOT U.S.-available civilian guns.

If those came from the USA, they came via U.S.-supplied Central American insurgents, or from illegal diversion from the U.S. military/police market. They did not come from the civilian market.





There look to be more civilian guns in that one; I think those are SKS's at the top left. The handguns are a mix of American and Warsaw Pact manufacture, which means they could come from the USA or from Central America, probably a mix of both. The CZ-52 (Czechoslovakian antique) is certainly interesting, if that's what it is.





Those are probably all non-automatic U.S. Title 1 civilian guns, except possibly for the FAL, which may be either U.S. civilian market or Mexican military. The long-barreled Thompson is probably a non-automatic U.S. civilian gun, as government customers would probably not have bought the stupidly long barrel. The old Uzi lookalike is likely non-automatic civilian, as real ones had wire shoulder stocks (prohibited on short-barreled Title 1 guns by the NFA), as is the ridiculous stockless AK.





All military/government only hardware; not a single U.S.-civilian-market weapon in the bunch, that I see. That M4 has a military/police length upper (shorter than U.S. civilian legal) so it's probably a real one, not civilian.





Mostly military, unless it's all Airsoft. All but one of those M4's are WAY too short to be Title 1 legal in the USA.






Can't tell if the AK's are military or non-automatic civilian, from the back. The grenades are definitely military sourced.




Can't tell due to bad photo angle. Are those M16/AR-15 uppers, complete rifles, or something else?






The grenade launchers are military/police only in the USA. Can't tell about the rifles; I think I see an HK of some sort, can't tell about the others.




I think your photo montage illustrates pretty well that the cartels are getting their hands on some serious military/police/government restricted hardware that is not available on the U.S. civilian market, and that the vast majority of the assault rifles are not coming from the United States.

The handguns, yes, I see a fair number of U.S. made handguns in those, along with a few non-automatic rifles. But most of the modern-looking rifles in those photos are easily identifiable by length and configuration as not available on the U.S. civilian market.

If I'm not mistaken the O.P. said that the Mexican military and police DO NOT use M-16 OR FAL type rifles. Yet in the photos it is clearly seen that some officials are in fact holding M-16 and FAL type weapons. Most are not, but some are.

I wish I still had my SAW I remember getting my first dirty SAW hand give me four boxes and I'll keep it rocken in three round oh the good ol times

My town will have a gun show next month I guess I will pick one up before the cartel gets one you know the help Mexico out and I will get it with out a background check :sarcasm:

Tell me friend, can I get a grenade at 7-11 or do I have to go all the way to Cabellas sporting goods?
How about an AK-47 or knock-off with a sub 16" barrel?
etc

Edit: I spy with my little eye, an Airsoft P90 pellet gun. OH NO THE HORROR, WE HAVE ARMED THE DRUG RUNNERS WITH AIRSOFT WEAPONS, THE MEXICAN ARMY IS CLEARLY OUTGUNNED etc.

the ignorant "murican" bullshit again. That just shows the ignorance of your posts.

and you think they are honest? Shit lady, haven't you figured out that politicians lie when they want to push an agenda?

I guess I know that this is happening

And guess what, didn't start this year either.

The fact that this is front and center has to do with the massive violence of the last 24 months

How did you know they were purchased from US civilians and not dumped in Central America by the US government in years past?

YOU CANNOT convert and AR15 to full auto.

You cannot convert a post-1986 AR to full auto. Not without major machine work, and probably a whole new upper. Clearances are all wrong.

Or some serious engineering. parts are not interchangable anymore, between recently produced semi-autos, and fully automatic cousins, in the US.

Most of the U.S.-made assault rifles in your photos obviously STARTED as police/military restricted models, not civilian-market non-automatics.

They're getting THOSE assault rifles the same place they're getting the M203's. Not on the civilian market.

Is terrible, I'm not even sure what you were actually trying to say.

But based off what I could decipher, you have no idea what you are talking about.

so tell me prof

You grew up in mexico

And you were present when the M-16 was not chosen

Okey dokey

Better yet, you were shot at with these weapons regularly as a medic. (Hey one of my engine blocks died a horrible death)

Ok

I know why you guys desperately cling to myths

Suffice it to say gun control will come, but NOT because of Mexico... it will come because the American people will demand it, like every other time we've had it

It is actually as Murican as apple pie

Surprised?

Read some history books... on gun control... before you burn them

As to not having a clue... I think I do, far better than you do.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103224899

Do yourself a favor, follow the link, listen to NPR. And then tell me that 90% of the cartels guns come from the USA.

But I'm sure you will just ignore it, because "You saw it with your own eyes", whatever that anecdotal crap is supposed to prove.

one ATF agent, against both national and binational organizations

Okie dockie, you fool

And as to having seen it, did... and you think this started TODAY?

Of course you do... it is now that the media started paying attention

You mean the American agency responsible for the 90% claim?

The people that gave the information to our goverment, who based their conclusions off THAT data.

Now that the ATF has recinded its claim, all of a sudden they are wrong? When previously they stated something you liked to agree with and they were right?

YOU have no facts, you have nothing but anecdotal evidence and the word of political figures whos information came directly from the source you are now attempting to discredit.

But say whatever makes you feel good, anyone with half a brain has already looked at the facts and concluded you are on nothing more than a delusional rant.

Good day, fool.

Willfully ignorant is believe is the term. LOL

so you don't need to deal with us ignorant "muricans".

Will someone in Mexico swap me a few for an AR or 2?

Nice.

"The standard issue rifle issue to the Mexican infantry is the FN-FAL...

A quick perusal of websites and Google images of Mexican soldiers would suggest this is not the case, the majority being armed with the G3.