I don't like guns. But I just might need to get one at some point.

I hope not to, but I figure this might be a good time to start educating myself about them, at least a little. Demystifying them a little, too, might be a fine idea.

First I should say that I feel a bit like a stranger in a strange land here in the Gungeon, or whatever its informal appelation may be. The OK Corral. The Not-So-OK Corral. Full disclosure: I'm never going to join the NRA or agree with their goals (I was also deeply disturbed by my receiving an NRA membership package hard on the heels of my naturalization as a US citizen), I'm one who believes that the gun-allowing provision of the Second Amendment was probably taken care of by the formation of the National Guard but certainly never intended for the freaky gun-clutching culture that's followed, and I find the true believers in such weaponry to include some genuinely scary and pitiful people and can't believe that here on DU there're a sizable contingent (presumably here I am at their/your Ground Zero) who fail to acknowledge the fact that something's awry with the disproportionate number of gun-related deaths in this country and the widespread availability of firearms.

So why am I down in yur Gungeon, insultin' yur valuze and callin' yuze compensatin' nutcases? Well, for a start, I've known enough sane gun enthusiasts and collectors to know that -- although I believe that guns are a massive problem in this nation and that stricter controls are needed on a Federal level -- guns and many of the people who own and use them responsibility need not inherently be a problem and, in line with the old valid argument that bad guys get guns even when they're criminalized, at this point I'd be considering a gun even if it was illegal for me to own one.

I'm originally from a country where handguns are illegal and so they're basically a foreign thing to me. I've picked up a few, dry-fired one (a Glock, 24 years ago), but they pretty much freak me out and I'm not afraid to say that they scare the hell out of me both because I know their intended function -- target shooting aside, handguns are made for the express purpose of killing people -- and because I do not know how to handle one.

I'm not entirely a stranger to firearms because I grew up primarily in rural areas where farmers and hunters had rifles and shotguns -- many war souvenirs (like my grandfather's German rifle from WWI) and the ubiquitous Lee Enfield .303 (again often brought back from military service in WWII) -- and I've killed a few tin cans with .22 and similarly-calibered rifles. For a very short time, early in my university years, I joined a target-shooting club that used .22 rifles in a shooting range, but I got kind of bored with it and overextended in terms of simultaneously engaging in more than three other pursuits (three seems the magic number). I didn't have ready access to rifles in my own home but, in the one-room country school I attended until I left for high school, we were taught the contents of the government's gun-license course book because there were so many guns around and learning how to use them safely was a good idea even for kids. Yes, where I hail from you have to have a license to own and use a gun, testing for which is pretty much like that of a car license (and high on stressing safety and familiarity with gun-related laws), and I fail to see why the same is not true in the USA, in every state -- ideally on a Federal level for maximum consistency, my background perhaps making me forever wondering why so many Americans seem deathly afraid of national governance -- because you've got to have a license to drive a car and requiring the same for gun ownership seems a small imposition well worth imposing and not at odds with the precious Second Amendment.

On the other hand...

I'm pretty confident that I can take care of myself in a physical confrontation or, at the very least, have several advantages in empty-hand combat. I'm not cocky about it -- I'm pretty well acculturated over the past two decades or so to traditional tenets of Chinese martial arts that tend to frown upon chestbeating proclamations of impending mayhem -- but I at least have a better-than-average chance of prevailing or (better yet) escaping the fray. Edged weapons, of course, change all of that considerably (training in use of knives and in countering them might, at best, minimize your blood loss) and guns are an entirely different story.

I am not interested in firearms as an adjunct to my interest in self-defense and traditional martial arts. I have a more immediate and less theoretical interest. I am facing the prospect of potentially having to arm myself with something with more stopping power than a rattan stick or even a pair of daggers. And, yeah, Chinese broadswords and spears are hardly practical as accompaniments to errands and the like, even in Planet Vegas. As I think I've already established, I really don't even like the idea of guns, and would greatly prefer that I never own one (when, back in the '80s, I was potentially on my way to the University of Miami I thought seriously about buying a gun so I wouldn't be the only one in the neighborhood who was packing heat), but the world's often an ironic place. Besides, as much as I'm no fan of the legality of and easy access to handguns in this country, the fact is that I AM legally able to buy a gun, and to get a concealed carry permit. In case you hadn't noticed, I am more than little conflicted about all of this.

My concern for my safety stems from a (now ex-) work partner who is f***ing insane. He's a violent wackjob, a vet (ex-soldier, not animal doctor) with undiagnosed PTSD who is one of the most self-destructive and self-defeating people I've ever known. He was also my roommate for a while. He's blown up on me a few times and I have had to intervene in many fights between him and random people on the street, invariably ending the fracas with a few shoves or the like but being placed in unwanted and unnecessary harm's way as a result. More to the point, twice he erupted on me to the point where he not only threatened my life (and, along the way, committed assault and, the second time, a mild form of battery) while screaming right in my face for an interminable time, and outside my room for hours thereafter (itself, I am sure, grounds for me having defended myself physically against an imminent threat), but was credible enough that I armed myself with whatever I could and realized that I may very well have to kill my roommate. The first time this happened, the idea of actually having to terminate his life processes was not a welcome one to entertain, but I had to face the fact of it being a possibility any time during that long night. All I had handy was a paring knife and a small sledge hammer, and they stayed by my bed the rest of my tenure there. He, on the other hand, had (and still has) a .357 magnum S&W revolver, with hollowpoint bullets. There is no doubt that having a gun, or a rocket launcher, in my room would have helped me feel a little less endangered that night. The second time, a bit short of a year later, it was much worse. And, to add to the fun, I was not alone. Having someone I care about there made it much worse and I was considerably more upset that she had to witness that, and be afraid of what he might do, than I was over the prospect of myself being harmed. I added four Henckels kitchen knives, strategically placed around my bedroom, to my arsenal and we didn't sleep that night. Again, I was visualizing a host of possible scenarios, realizing that I needed to kill him or be willing to do so, or at least take him down to the point at which he was no longer a threat (a feat that could fairly easily result in his death). I also finally entertained ideas of pre-emptive defense that basically ended with me letting him join the ranks of all those other people buried in the desert around Las Vegas. My mind was not in the best shape after hours of this, but I was ready to fight the bastard to the death if he came through that door with his gun, as unlikely as I'd be to survive his onslaught.

In short, he's an utter pig, violently out of control (especially when drunk, which is his usual state), who I truly believe could very easily do or try to do something very stupid (I mean, even more stupid than all the other stuff he pulls) solely because he is just deranged enough and self-destructive enough not to care. He has also killed, in combat, so he knows the reality of it at least in that context. I don't scare or get ruffled easily, but I feel I have adequate cause for concern here. I'm not interested in a handgun as a result of the breakdown in society, or because some Kenyan Muslim (sarcasm tag not needed, I hope) is going to make it hard or impossible for me to get a gun, but as a direct response to one particular threat or (because he's said before he'd be open to enlisting the services of at least three who're perhaps even more solidly sociopathic than he is, blunt instruments who'd do the dirty work for him) set of threats that somehow entered my life.

So that's my impetus for even thinking about getting or, at least, learning how to use a handgun. The most likely thing is that nothing will happen or, at worst, the SOB will show up and create a scene that'll end with me calling the police and securing a restraining order. But, on the other hand, stuff happens, and it happens every day; basically, what happened to me was an episode of domestic abuse and we all know that it's not unheard of for those to end with a death or severe injuries, and the way this sicko operates there's also the overlaid aspect related to him feeling threatened by my presence in the job market here.

Buying a gun is, I reiterate, something I'd rather not do. It's probably not necessary for this particular threat and I'm not especially enthused about securing a weapon on the basis of a perceived general threat from unknown assailants at some point in the future. At the very least, I wouldn't mind learning how to use a handgun. There're lots of places here that offer such courses. It occurs to me that, in this society, having even a basic working knowledge of firearms is not a bad idea. Especially out here in the West. A random example of one possible scenario would be if something violent happened with that putz and I managed to somehow either get his gun away from him or get to it before he did -- I'd have no idea how to load or unload the thing, or even how to shoot it, and I'd quite possibly just end up doing something gauche like shooting myself in the kneecap. So, yeah, perhaps learning how to load and unload semiautomatic pistols and revolvers would be not such a bad idea, and how to shoot them. I should probably even become conversant with shotguns, rifles, etc, too, in terms of the bare basics in handling and defanging them. In this town, guns are certainly fairly ubiquitous and you never know when you might be called upon to handle a firearm or render it safe. I tend to get in some odd circumstances here in Vegas, in part because of my currently odd career in this odd town, so the weirdness quotient notches up a bit and with it comes increased likelihood that I'll one day wish I knew how to handle, use, or render inoperable a handgun. I've seen guns used in lots of movies, for example, but I'm not sure I'd know where the safety catch might be on one (I am, however, 99.9999% sure that revolvers don't have 'em). There're plenty of gun ranges here (some offer all sorts of exotic weapons) so I imagine a few hours spent at one of these places might suffice for a start -- I'd not be looking to become Doc Holliday, but learning the basics would perhaps be a good idea.

If I decide to go all the way and buy a gun, I wouldn't know what kind to get, which is my main reason for posting here (I don't know what insight you might have or can have, not knowing me in the flesh...). Again, the immediate threat is unlikely. On the other hand, I sometimes expose myself to more potential for harm than perhaps the average citizen does and so perhaps a little justified paranoia is in order. Given the nature of the most likely unlikely threat, I'd want a weapon suited to concealed carry. On what I assume is the bright side, I am large (6'5" tall, broad frame, very quick with -- probably thanks largely to matial arts training -- good awareness of posture and the location and disposition of all my pieces, hopefully minimizing my odds of shooting myself while drawing the weapon, and I have fairly big hands with fingers that're not especially chunky) and pretty strong and durable. So, yeah, I could probably make like Arnold and all the other action heroes with the cool Hollywood guns like the Desert Eagle and so on, even for concealed carry. What I'm more interested in, though, is something practical. Practical and safe (kind of a seeming paradox, that latter consideration, but you know what I mean).

My hands are big, so I assume I'd better fit a larger weapon than a smaller weapon, within the constraints of what is practical for concealed carry (and, besides, if I got a Walther PPK I'd undoubtedly blow away my full-length mirror while practicing my James Bond pose). The most likely use I envision is to have the weapon with me while I'm out and about, though I guess home defense is always a consideration -- I'm not now interested in shotguns and the like, or in starting to assemble an arsenal of guns, so I want one pistol that'll work well to cover all possible bases with great portability.

I'm thinking 9mm might be best, for availability and price of ammunition combined with stopping power. My size probably allows for a larger gun (.40?) but if I'm going to ever be toting this thing around I obviously don't want some cannon and I assume that there're issues related to drawability in terms of a gun's size.

From a quick perusal of a few Web sites, I'm wondering if any of the following sound like decent matches:

Glock 19
Walther P99
H&K USP

I've done some reading and the P99 sounds like it might well suit my needs and my habitus. A shoulder holster may be ideal for some uses (I'm sure they're hardly comfortable, especially in Las Vegas' heat) and I saw a leather one online that had a holster that detaches to wear at the hip. I imagine a shoulder holster's useless when wearing a T-shirt or in pretty much any situation when a second layer's not worn, so most of the year it'd be impractical for a place like this, if I felt the need to carry the gun, and I can only imagine how much fun it'd be against very sweaty bare skin. An ankle holster could actually work for when I'm on the job, if I felt a threat was particularly imminent, because I have a lot of room there thanks to the design of my work duds, but I'm not sure how practical or comfortable it'd be to try to tote a full-sized pistol that way. Much as I don't like the idea of having the gun on my hip, solely for reasons of concealment, that may be where it usually ends up, unless it's in a cargo pants pocket. I'm not at all excited about toting a gun from the practical standpoint, anyway -- the weight, the bulk, etc -- let alone the whole issue of implications arising from carrying around a weapon that can so easily snuff out a life (or, if I'm not careful, put a hole in me). I sure don't anticipate carrying it as a matter of course, day in and day out. I also understand that economizing on such an implement is false economy, at best, but I'd consider a used gun if I had some guarantee it's pristine in action...it looks like a P99, as the prime candidate example, might run me $550-750 if I'm lucky, new.

I know the real key is to get out there and try out these and other guns, but any armchair evaluations of possible suitability would be most welcome because it's not likely I'll run out any time soon to take a pistol course. Any input you may have as to potential means for carrying the gun would be appreciated, too, as would preferred methods for securing it at home (rendering it safe but not making it inaccessible in the unlikely event I need it quickly). I've read a bit about all of this but I'd appreciate any general comments.

I have a fairly strong feeling that guns are rarely useful in self-defense. By that I mean that the most obvious need for a gun is when you, yourself, are threatened by some gun-wielding sociopath, and it seems to me that -- more often than not -- you're going to get shot if you go for your gun (shot at, anyway). Really, I see having a gun -- even with a concealed carry permit -- as mostly irrelevant to many self-defense situations (either because it represents disproportionate force or because, by the time you know you need it, it's too late even if it's on your person and, indeed, may be a liability that makes you do something really stupid or gives the bad guy another weapon). But it's also a kind of insurance and, if you end up really needing one, it'd suck to not have one handy. The kind of situation I was facing, where some maniac may well burst through my door or emerge from his room with gun drawn, is one in which having a gun handy might actually make a difference -- there was warning and there was time to either flee the scene or hunker down with a gun deployed from its safe hiding place. I'm not going to be able to routinely wear it with the outfits I use for my work, or securely have it handy in my venues, but it still could be a life saver. As I said, I have better-than-average odds of escaping or 'winning' an unarmed fight -- certainly not that its a given, but I'd have an edge over many, especially those slowed or otherwise hampered by rage or substances -- but there is no such thing as an effective empty-hand gun defense...the best you can hope for is that you get lucky, if you give it a try on the assumption that you're doomed anyway.

I have to stress that these are early, early days. The thought of getting a gun is not a happy one for me, and I have a feeling that even once I get to know it I'll view it for some time with some dread and, of course, that moment of commitment to using it (that I hope will never come) can change the whole course of the shooter's life and perhaps end another's. Learning how to safely handle and how to very basically shoot a gun or two is one thing, but having the responsibility of owning one and being prepared to use it is another, entirely. Either way, if I do anything at all about this it'll start (and perhaps finish) with going through some kind of course on how to handle and use a gun. That may be enough.

IF I get a gun (a big 'if') I'd want to become an expert with it. I'd want to know how to clean it, disassemble and reassemble it, and how every part of it works. I'd obviously want to know how it works and how to clear it and ensure it's safe, and how to do things like eject the magazine only at appropriate times. I'd also want to fire it enough that the process of doing so is finally demystified for me and so that I am aware of its and my capabilities and limitations. I'd also want to fire the thing until I reached the point at which my accuracy is as good as it can ever be, under ideal (range) conditions and preferably also under more real-world conditions as presented by those more dynamic situations I've heard of (I've forgotten the name -- some kind of tactical shooting course -- but the concept reminds me of the start of one of the Dirty Harry films, I think maybe Magnum Force or whichever one featured David Soul as a hot-shot policeman). Now, THAT sounds like fun I might appreciate. If I'm going to get a gun, I want to know it inside out and back to front and I want to be as skilled with that particular weapon as a non-professional can reasonably be with an imperfect handgun. If I ever have to use it, I don't want to miss the bad guy or hit a good guy or innocent within the bullet's range and if I ever have to draw the gun I don't necessarily want it to go off. I also want to be conversant with all relevant laws, of course (not that Nevada seems to have any!).

Thanks for reading the ravings of a neophyte pistolphobe who hates the idea of guns only slightly less than he hates the idea of getting shot by one. Again, I may never put your advice into action, but I appreciate it, nevertheless.

Holy shoot...just looked at a few of the gun laws here in Nevada and they're frighteningly scanty:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=nv

Welcome to the Wild West. Yeehah. :scared:

(any of them sound fine for your purposes)

Find the one that feels best in your hand. I have a Glock 19 and I love it, but the grip isn't for everybody.


Then, take a firearm safety course and spend some time at the range getting comfortable with it. Guns aren't any more scary than a hammer once you're used to them.

Be safe, and remember that the true protection doesn't come from the chunk of metal in your hand, it comes from the chunk of tissue between your ears.

That seems pretty solid advice. Whether I EVER get a gun or not I think it's a good survival skill, especially hereabouts, to do the course and fire and prep and break down a few different kinds of weapons.

Well, that and -- no matter how much the gun might feel like hammer -- make sure it's unloaded before you use it to start banging nails in with, right? :D

Be careless and somebody could get hurt.


...and you may actually find that you enjoy shooting. I don't hunt, but I like to shoot :)

as a tactical exercise not all that unlike martial arts sparring or any other thing that requires (and develops or refines) concentration, coordination, and so on. Shooting targets and the like. The prospect of actually using it against a person is a whole other thing, I recognize -- I think I have a fairly good handle on what some of you in this thread are saying because of my fairly deep immersion in martial arts and its culture, because (being that my training is such is the nearest likely parallel I can think of to gaining proficiency with a deadly weapon) you work hard to get good at something you hope you never have to do, you become arguably LESS likely to use it as you get better at it (the threshold for outwardly 'aggressive' response continually raising), but if you do have to use it you're ready to do so without (one hopes) your self getting in the way and creating an even more dangerous environment.

The idea of a handgun freaks me out because I don't have any familiarity with them yet, I recognize, as much as for their deadly potential and the ease with which that potential can be unleashed, but in the martial pursuits that've been part of my life for so long I really have most or all of all the neural/emotional/intellectual/character pathways mapped out. I've given and taken a lot of physical punishment during my martial arts training but I've (so far) only had one serious knock-down, drag-out fight as an adult (a number of skirmishes with mild contact at best since beginning my current work, most of the kind I mentioned relative to this fool I wrote about above), and that situation was one I could not get away from or talk my way out of. I hit that mushin no shin zone in which it all becomes effortless and clear, and everything slows down (forget The Matrix; that scene in Spider-Man where Tobey Maguire first gets punched at after receiving his powers, with the opponent's fist coming past in slo-mo, is exactly how it feels to me on those very rare occasions when I hit this state), and the assailant was pretty much toast at that point, an outcome that did actually surprise me because everything I'd trained in not only worked , no matter how messy and inelegant that actual execution, but seemed almost effortless; this was a person that I would have just as soon seen dead, for a variety of reasons, but when it came down to it I hated every strike I landed on him, and every smack and crunch I felt under my fist, but I kept at it for what seemed an eternity (seconds, I'm sure) because I was aware consciously of only one thing and that was that if I didn't take him down and render him incapable of coming back, I'd really get hurt. In the end I was not happy that I hurt him, much as he arguably deserved that and more, and I was also mad at him and at the situation for my having to resort to violent response....a blemish on my record, if you will.

People die in fistfights, sure, but a gun ups the chance considerably: I think I could fire on someone who was a genuine and unavoidable threat, but I don't think my likelihood of ever having to do so, or even of producing the weapon as a deterrent, is going to be very high and I can definitely see myself escaping from the scene in preference to standing my ground even if I was carrying at the time. There're undeniably a few people on this planet I'd love to smack around -- or, at least, so I think knowing that if I ever got the chance I'd almost certainly just lay a few putdowns on them if I did anything at all -- but I'm still upset enough about this git (someone I hated, with good reason) who forced me to beat the hell out of him six or seven years ago and he was someone who's been involved in lots of fights. I know I wouldn't be one to take lightly having to use a gun against anyone, even this idiot who's currently a vague threat, and I have heard enough people who've done so say that killing someone is something you'll never forget or get over to assume that the only thing worse would be to let them kill you or someone else in your vicinity.

In other words, definitely no cowboy here. Though those cowboy shooting events sound like fun... :D




EDIT: I really didn't mean to say that I was highly likely to be blowing people away. Typo! :o

arguments, one or both of you may already be dead. As it is now, you can both sit around complaining about each other.

BTW - I think you assessment of gun laws in this country is fairly accurate, and I also refuse to join the NRA, although I have joined the local GOAL.

Having said that, I have recently acquired my ltc-a but don't agree with the NRA position on many issues. I am also now mulling over which large caliber semi-auto handgun to purchase. Mainly for personal enjoyment, but also to feel safer in that I would at least have a chance to protect myself from the armed nut jobs. Again, not that I believe that I will BE any safer, but I would feel safer.

States gun laws are wildly inconsistent in this country.

(Las Vegas) is a small town in many respects, when it comes to the Strip and the circles in which both he and I work. And I know him well: he's the type to brood forever over perceived slights and insults, usually ones he's precipitated entirely by himself. He'll be back, for sure, and he's been trying to hook his wagon back to me, work-wise, because he knows he is not as capable as I am with the kind of work we do. I doubt anything will happen but, like I said, he's dangerously unstable and part of him wants to die, and combined with his other character traits and pathologies, fueled even further by alcohol, that's still potentially very serious trouble ticking away.

Having a handgun around might or might not help, and I really do hate to even think of getting one, but I've thought about it for quite a long time now and it's not a bad idea for me to equalize the threat level a little bit -- he's strong and a veteran fighter but I'm (all things being equal, on a good day) more capable than he is in a fight, but he's the one with the gun and that pretty much negates all my kungfoolery.

Firstly, you really don't want to actually use the darned thing. That's important for a variety of reasons that I'm sure I don't need to explain.

Domestic violence is no laughing matter. No matter the living arrangement, buddies, lovers, marrried, relatives, it can turn deadly and extremely messy. That's where you are right now. It can turn the toughest big guy into a victim. My first advice to you is to make as much distance between you and your former friend as possible. Completely sever all ties and simply refuse to engage in his life again. I have sympathy for his underlying conditions but that isn't our problem no matter how much he'd like to make it so.

I'd say you're a good candidate for the basic Glock 9mm pistol. They are around at good prices as police trade-ins. Don't let anyone tell you the 9mm isn't a decent round, it'll do the job if you do yours. It's not the tool you choose as much as it is how and when you choose to use it. Get a good holster and some kind of locking container for it as well.

Get some formal training. If you state allows concealed carry, get the training and the permit even if you never intend to use it. I really can't stress this enough. What use is it to own a tool if you cannot keep it with you under certain conditions? There may be a day when you need to flee your residence and it may very well be that being armed might make sense at that time.

There's some reading material available you should check out. No, not Ayn Rand. I'm talking about guys like Jeff Cooper and Massad Ayoob. Ayoob is quite informative about all aspects of defensive shooting. If he ever offers a training course in your area you should check it out.

I tend to check my politics at the door when doing any kind of shooting activity because it usually draws a large cross section of society. Life's too short to waste it arguing politics 24/7. The best pistol shooter I know is a PhD in Sociology and not exactly a "Fox News Conservative". He and I once shot with a group of State Troopers and they were shocked that a couple of borderline hippies could perform at the level we did. Just avoid the 88r's and the whackos, which I can assure you are nothing but a vocal minority.

Now for my philosophical rant. The "frightening" lack of gun laws in some states is no big deal. Normal law-abiding folks don't need the regulation and the criminals don't really care what laws are on the books anyway. Owning small arms is a Constitutional Right and most states respect that. With laws on the books against murder, assaults of all varieties, and most every other act of violence one can imagine, regular folks like you and I understand that shooting someone with a firearm is not something to be done as a casual pass time.

I won't even bore you with my rant on firearms in the movies and on TV. Let's just say they glorify irresponsible behavior and leave it at that.

Yep, I have/had sympathy for him for a long time but the bottom line is that his problems, especially when he refuses to address them, do not give him license to tread all over as many people as he does. I've definitively cut the ties but he's still trying to grab hold, unfortunately.

And, yes, if I did actually get a gun it would be primarily so that I could carry it (legally) as a concealed weapon. I wouldn't always be able to or even want to do so, but that's a necessity.

Thanks for the references...I have seen a few articles by this Ayoob dude on the Web and they were pretty interesting. Good stuff to know even for the non-gun-owner. If I get a weapon, becoming very proficient with it is not only something that'd be an immediate desire but fits my personality, anyway. Not sure what an 88r is, but I'm picturing someone who thinks nothing less than a WWII German .88 artillery piece will do the trick, which seems a little extreme even for this country. I wonder if they can be mounted to Hummers?

Point taken about the laws -- yeah, in the end it comes down to choosing to be law-abiding or not, and when to be which (one prime example being that the US system was cleverly designed with checks and balances to maintain a balance of power at the national level, but those ingenious safeguards mean nothing when, as with the last crowd, you're totally prepared to break the law, or have your pet Supreme Court redefine the law to your template). Like I said, if I really, really, really felt I needed a weapon that was fairly extreme, I'd be prepared to consider going outside the law to secure one for my own protection. Regardless -- whether because of the preponderance of guns or other factors -- in this country having a gun is a more rational response than in many, certainly among Western democracies, but my prime immediate impetus really is this one potential, unlikely threat. If I've got a hedge against general violence, or if I'm right in my suspicion that my work customarily exposes me more fully to a few more wackos than is typical, so much the better that I have one more tool in the arsenal of possible responses.

I'm disappointed to hear that the movie and TV are so irresponsible in their presentations of firearms, because I was looking forward to playing along with action movies and dry-firing my pistol at the bad guys. I'd better REALLY make sure I've got no rounds in there, though, because -- as much as I like Elvis -- I can't afford to be blowing away TVs like he did. :D

What can I say? He was a great musician but a lousy TV critic. I had a buddy who shot the tube once when Oprah was on. It made a horrible mess and frightened his pony, who was idly munching cookies with him in the living room at the time.

The only real point I need to clarify is my reference to 88'rs. H is the eighth letter of the alphabet. 88 therefore equals HH. HH is short for "Heil Hitler". These types are every bit as dangerous as a Crip or MS13. It is inevitable that you will encounter one if you are getting any kind of firearms training or going to a public range. Just as you are warned about Outlaw Bikers when you buy a Harley, consider yourself warned about these whackos. They are easy to spot because they're always spouting about politics of the most extreme nature.

That is all. I think I'll go plug in my axe and work on some old Rockabilly now. I need to finish the intro to Hot Rod Lincoln but I think that can wait. I hear The King calling my name.

so I'll refrain from punishing my TV in such a way or taking Oprah's image in vain.

Thanks for the 88r clarification: I accidentally came close, I guess, with the WWII German artillery thing, one key difference being that most of the men who manned those weapons were undoubtedly honorable enough types. I know the type you refer to, fortunately having only had limited exposure to such untermenschen (walking-away is a definite art form). I think Frederic Forrest really nailed the archetype, albeit a little over-the-top compared to some, in Falling Down. Scum.

Enjoy the ride on the Mystery Train!

they rent guns there. You can shoot at their range. I went there 2 years ago and shot a bunch of different 40 cal pistols. I spent $100 and ran 150 rounds through a glock, an xd & an sig 229. I really liked the springfield xd and purchased one once I got back home & waited for my paperwork to arrive (nj). I ended up buying the 45 over the 40 but it was very good to shoot different ones prior to spending $500.

good luck & be safe

I think it's one I go past fairly regularly. If I'm not mistaken it's one where they offer machineguns for firing, too, not that one of those illegal pieces would do me any good unless I decide to sign up with one of the Colombian cartels.

That's likely where I'll head off to, to try the three guns I mentioned and whatever else they think might suit me. At minimum, even if I never buy one, I'll have at least a passing degree of familiarity with how to handle a handgun.

There's another outfit here called Center Mass that has billboards that kind of freak me out. Sure, many guns sold in this country are sold for personal protection rather than for hunting or purely target shooting but, still, the brutal honesty (hopefully not merely macho posing) of calling your place Center Mass does kind of induce a nervous gulp or two, unless it's a Catholic church. I guess at least it does get across the seriousness of the topic but, still, if I ran a gun place I think I'd be tempted to call it the Fairydust and Unicorns Gun Range.

Thanks!

If you have the time, money ($10K to $100K+), willingness to work with local & federal LEO you can legally own a machinegun.

Center mass is brutally honest but firearms are brutally honest equipment. Aiming non center mass if a good way to get yourself killed.

Many people don't realize this but in a life or death situation you body gets hammered with adrenaline. Your vision narrows, hearing gets muted & pain response are muted. Muscle control becomes exaggerated and you lose fine motor control.

Even if you can shoot a target in the knee, or leg, or hand on a firing range it is unlikely you can in combat.

While handgun rounds are lethal they often are not single round shots. So it is possible to shoot someone and cause a fatal wound they die from in 5-10 minutes. Long enough for they to rush you and cut your throat.

In self defense situation the goal isn't slow & lethal it is to stop the attack instantly, before you or anyone else it hurt.

The brutal honest truth is to do that reliably and consistently will take MULTIPLE shots to center mass. Countless FBI & LEO studies have shown this. The average handgun cartridge has 1/10th the power of the average hunting rifle cartridge.

Self defense with a firearm IS brutally honest:
No warning shots (bullets keep going and can hit innocent 3rd party)
If possible (time & distance & situation) provide verbal ultimatum and present weapon
Aim center mass
SHOOT TO STOP
Keep shooting until target is no longer a threat.

own a machinegun. :D

I've obviously got no training in handgun use but I have gathered over the years that the one thing you do not do is shoot to wound. I mean, maybe you'll get lucky and the attacker will be stopped but not killed, but the idea of going for center of mass, where most of the vital targets hide out (in some Chinese martial arts styles the overriding concern is to defend your own centerline while attacking your opponent's, so this is again a somewhat familiar idea), does emphasize the seriousness of what carrying a gun really means and I'd think it enforces a degree of sobriety on anyone in their right mind. It's too easy to use a gun to kill someone. Up above I just mentioned the Spider-Man movie, and there's a line from that piece (echoing the words of Jesus, Socrates, FDR, and others, I'm sure) that sure as hell seems apt: "with great power comes great responsibility." Uh-huh.

I've been a in a few life-threatening situations (field biologist, diving in some gnarly conditions, among other pursuits that took me a little too close to the edge at times) but in every instance I found that my awareness and my physical control actually seemed to increase under the influence of adrenaline and whatever else was coursing through me. At times I've wondered if martial arts training, basically getting me rather used to other people's hurtful body parts flying at me without me (after a while) falling to pieces over that fact, honed that. I'm prepared to accept that I am, in fact, indestructible, but I'd rather not test that, especially with a gun. Afterwards, though, yeah, the adrenaline makes me shake, rattle, and roll a fair bit. If I ever have to use a gun, on that sad day (unless I'm lucky enough that I really do just wound the bozo with the first round, probably because my aim sucks, and it's enough to incapacitate him for the moment), I suspect it'll be an all or nothing thing (as in the fistfight I reference above, that disturbs me still, during which I hammered away on the person until they were no longer a threat).

Even without my training -- and, for me, in martial arts training it took me a LONG time to get used to the idea of relentless follow-through (and not just because my initial training was in styles that emphasized the unrealistic point-fighting kind of thing, or traditional one-step sparring, in which you do one technique and then stop) -- I'd never forget my brother's mistake: he and his best friend and a couple of women were accosted by a knife-wielding gang member (initiate, actually) who, presumably as part of his induction to the gang, demanded my brother's leather jacket. My brother's friend, an extremely mild-mannered, very short young man who to my knowledge had never been in a fight in his life, went nuts on the dude and tore him apart, taking him to the ground and disarming him, hurting him pretty badly. They backed off, the somewhat frayed sociopath shook his head and picked up the knife, held it on them again, got my brother's jacket, and left. Duh. I was impressed by the little fella's rage-driven defense but, really, they were very lucky one of them wasn't hurt or killed after that idiot picked himself up and dusted himself off (well, initially, too....arguably, my brother's friend's attack wasn't a brilliant move in that it was certainly not risk-free and the item in question was, no matter how expensive and dear to my brother, just a material object, but his friend really did basically just see red and went off on the mugger). Pretty basic: take them out to the point at which they're no longer a threat to you or anyone else. As one of my martial arts instructors told me, if you're attacked for real on the street, use whatever dirty fighting you need to, preferably taking out the knee or something so their mobility's impaired, and if they're still a threat grab a handy two by four or trash can lid and whack them with it to quieten them down before you run away (the morally dubious last part being acknowledgment that, too often in self-defense situations, the police and court may not see things your way...sometimes it seems like you need to let them actually hurt you, even in a knife-versus-empty-hand scenario, before you can plead self-defense for your response).

I've lived in the United States for many years now and it's unquestionably a more violent culture and empirically the scene of higher levels of personal violence than where I come from, but I've very few times felt especially unsafe here, even in some fairly desperate areas that I've visited or walked through. I'm sure the odds of my ever having to use my martial arts skills in an overt way (again, they get used all the time, in many thing sin my daily life, and in moments of potential crisis they come to the fore in helping ensure there will NOT be any violent action going on) are very low and the odds that I ever fire a gun, if I do own one, in 'anger' will be effectively zero even with this current fool on making belligerent noises on the periphery of my life. Still, the likelihood of my getting hit by a meteorite while driving are infinitesimal, but that doesn't stop me from paying each month for the optional getting-hit-by-a-meteorite rider on my vehicle insurance...

They should be able to show you how to:
safely clear the weapon
disasmble the weapon
clean & lube the weapon
reassemble the weapon
functions check the weapon

See if one of them will take you to the range.
Try shooting as many different weapons as possible.

Don't buy guns based on specs or looks.
Buy gun based on how it feels (in your hand).
Don't just pickup a gun in a gunshop and hold it like you are admiring a sword (I saw that a lot).

Pick it up and get in a fighting stance. Two hands raise it up (in a safe direction) to eye level and look down the sights.
Bring the weapon back down to the low ready (weapon near your chest, pointed slightly down, elbows bent). Go back to fighting stance, back to low ready. Really get a feel for the weapon.

Even better SHOOT IT. 5 rounds to a mag. Fire slow & steady at first. No rush.

Everyone weapon is different. Everyone's hand/arms/eyes are different. There are good matches and poor matches.

I love the reliability, quality, and style of Glocks but they simply don't fit my hand. The grip angle (angle between the grip & barrel) is wrong. It is to "square". Makes sighting and firing uncomfortable and awkward. A very similar weapon (Springfield XD) has a large angle and when I bring the weapon up it is on target naturally.

Lastly training. I know you dislike the NRA but NRA courses are some of the best when it comes to training. If not NRA at least get it from somewhere. If you go non-NRA check out the reputation of the course. Anyone (I mean anyone) can start a firearm or CCW course. It doesn't mean they are an expert or a good teacher or that anyone evaluated their technique. At least with NRA you know the teacher meets some minimum level of proficiency.

Would be kind of handy, though!

A gun safety curse or other course I might take at a local range would cover that, wouldn't it? If not, maybe it's a tutorial for which I can prevail upon whoever sells me the gun, when and if that day comes.

The stance stuff, too, is something I'd want some guidance with. I've obviously seen the various stances on TV and in the movies, and lately I've read a bit about them on the Web (and the various debates about effectiveness...seems to me that what proves most effective for one person, or under one circumstance, may not be universally so), but it's going to be matter of getting a little instruction on the options and then seeing which kind(s) seem best for me or for any particular circumstance. I have to say that, without any practical experience and knowing that it seems to be the stance-less-taken these days, I rather like the idea of the one-handed 'duelling'-style position, solely because it seems (other than the best position, which is about a mile or more from the scene oft he conflict) to present the smallest target possible under the assumption that you're drawing your gun against someone else similarly armed (a situation destined to very often end badly for both, I'm sure).

But, yes, as much as I'd want to learn and practice some of this stuff even if I don't buy a gun but just spend time at the range firing a few kinds, I want to spend at least as much time getting familiar with firearm maintenance and safety. For me the closest analogy I can think of is my SCUBA gear, life support protection that I've relied on time and time again under some fairly harrowing circumstances...you don't take anything much for granted with such stuff if you've any clue at all in your head and what could easily seem tedious procedure may end up saving your life (or, of course, failing to commit to such procedure may needlessly cost you or compromise your life).

Thanks very much for all of your input. This will be very helpful to me.

If you are at all considering getting a gun for self-defense and the LAW you need to be concerned with are the laws concerning self-defense and the use of deadly force in Nevada.

Nevada Revised Statutes, Chapter 200-Crimes against Persons

NRS 200,120 through NRS 200.200 cover the law concerning justifiable homicide and self-defense.

Assuming you are not subject to any legal impediment to gun ownership, how many hoops you have to jump through to buy a gun (which is all the Brady site cares about) is a small matter compared to the potential for catastrophe of having to use it.

The most important part of any concealed carry training is a thorough and comprehensive discussion of the legal ramifications regarding the use of deadly force. If you do not comprehend this, you have no business carrying a gun. Learning how to shoot, like any martial skill, a fairly simple matter of technique and practice, but unless or until you understand when, and more importantly, when you cannot use force to defend yourself you should stick to the recreational aspects of shooting.

"The son-of-a-bitch just needed killin'" does not qualify as an affirmative defense, no matter how many times Josh Sugarman or Paul Helmke proclaim that's what "Castle Doctrine Laws" do.

and that's the only defense I have for getting all wide-eyed over this part:

"A person is doing a lawful act, without any intention of killing, yet unfortunately kills another, as where a man is at work with an ax and the head flies off and kills a bystander;"

On first perusal, already topsy-turvied by the legalese in earlier paragraphs, I had the image of someone chopping someone's head off and then being held accountable for that flying head injuring a passerby. That'd suck.

It's entirely possible I've seen too man serial-killer movies. I quite obviously never should have bought that American Psycho DVD, dammit.

In total, the law sounds pretty standard (not that I'm an expert, but my interest in martial arts has caused me to occasionally check out the rules of engagement in various jurisdictions, just out of vague interest) although nowhere do I see them saying that the other person necessarily has to be armed, with anything, for the homicide to be justifiable or excusable (whatever that latter is). It says, pretty plainly, that you can kill someone who's committing a felony...then again, that's what we have all these courts and judges, I suppose, to stop things from getting too ridiculous (and, yes, sometimes apparently to encourage said ridiculous outcomes). I don't know if osmoregulating against a dumpster is considered a felony-level sex crime here in Nevada, but I suspect that firing your gun out the window as you drive by someone doing so (and there're plenty of drunk people doing exactly that in alleys as I type, here in the Neon City) is not going to go down well with Metro police.

I won't be shooting any men in Vegas, just to watch them die. I should have no problem getting a carry permit, either, by the sound of it. I'd just as soon skip it all -- firing a gun at targets may prove enjoyable in its own right, but I've got lots of other things I enjoy that I don't have time to do these days and they don't involve buying lots of expensive ammo, an expensive gun, and having the ability to kill someone dead for the rest of their life with contraction of a few finger muscles -- but it seems that potential threat, however unlikely, and my openness to somewhat redress the balance of firepower involved have converged.

The law does not excuse homicide merely because you were "stopping a felony."

A guy stealing you car is committing a felony, and no matter how much you might WANT to shoot him, it would be a crime to do so. On the other hand if he were trying to run you over with your car, shooting him would be justifiable.

There has to be reasonable fear of grievous bodily harm or threat to life to justify deadly force. Shooting to stop an arsonist in the act of setting fire to an occupied dwelling is different from shooting at some drunk wagging his weenie in an alley pissing on dumpsters. Likely that would rate a misdemeanor at best, anyway.

In defense of yourself you can generally act on the circumstances as they appear. Someone you don't know bursts into the room with what looks like a gun and threatens to shoot you, it doesn't matter if after the fact it turns out his gun was a fake or that he meant it as a joke. You were justified in your response.

The law is usually much stricter when it comes to intervening to defend others. The classic example is you encounter what appears to be a hold-up in progress. Some scruffy looking dude has a gun on someone in a business suit and is taking his briefcase. If in fact what you stumbled on was an undercover cop arresting a well-dressed crook if you had shot the scruffy dude you'd be in big trouble. You have to be sure of the facts as they are, not just as they appear.

As far as defending yourself against an assailant, they have to be in a position and have the means to cause you death or bodily harm. Women can generally include fear of rape on that list. A 100 pound grandma threatened by a guy that looks like an NFL lineman doesn't have near as much explaining to do as would a 200 pound 30 year old black belt confronted by unarmed 97 pound weakling upset at sand being kicked in his face.

Being scared is not the same as reasonable fear.

As for drunks, shooting guns out of car windows, if you are in the habit of drinking and being stupid around machinery, it's best you not own anything dangerous, much less a gun.

They are all just point and shoot. They all tend to be reliable, which is the most important thing.
A gun is just a tool to add to the martial arts skill. Gunfights very often go to the ground, so you should be in good shape with your martial arts back ground. And a person getting shot does not positively stop them any more than a knife wound.

If I don't have to fire to achieve that, so much the better (though, of course, in terms of the situation that's driven me to this point I'd also be revealing my weapon, which is not ideal). if I shot and only injured the person, well, that's better than killing them. I realize I need to be prepared to take a life, though, if I even draw (carry, for that matter) a gun. At least with something like 9mm, the bad guys might have more of a chance of living to be bad again...I've got strong enough wrists that I probably could get away with a .44 magnum, but who'd want to tote such a monster around all day, anyway? I'd much rather be the Clint Eastwood of Bridges of Madison County than Dirty Harry, anyway.

I can't remember why I settled on the idea of semi-auto (right terminology?) pistols rather than revolvers. I've been thinking about this situation for a while now -- during which time, of course, no psycho ex-roommate has shot at me, that I know of, unless he's a really bad shot -- and I can't recall, but I think it had something to do with (a) more bullets in the pistol than the revolver and (b) safety catches. I'd suppose that, unless involved in a war or facing down an entire gang, anyone who needs more than six rounds before reloading or doing that speedloader thing is either a very bad shot (or facing someone who's like a human Slinky™) or has a tendency toward overkill (or really, really doesn't like their opponent). Still, the rationale for my even considering getting a gun at all applies here: better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. The safety thing is a reflection of my not knowing much about guns, from a practical standpoint, really: I obviously want to have to be able to use the thing if I need it, but I would prefer it's as laden with features as possible that will prevent me from shooting myself in the leg, armpit, or anywhere else, or inflicting similar on people that I don't have marked for assassination that day. The idea of a Glock makes me somewhat nervous in the same way; I've got a good degree of fine motor control going on and, again, that martial arts training inevitably honed a good deal of precision with placement of my various bits and an awareness of my spatial relationships, but I don't ever want to be shot by anyone and I'd never forgive myself if, simply because my finger slipped or hooked on the wrong thing, the person who shot me was me. I imagine that, if you carry a gun in a pocket, keeping pens and keys in that same pocket would be a distinct no-no...

And the bottom line is that a holstered gun is safe. It does need to be a descent holster.

Personally I hate safetys. I already know I am a bit slower with a safety. And during classes that simulate shit the fan situations, people sometimes fail to get the safety off when they really need to get shooting.

You could always consider condition zero. That is a full mag with NO shell in the chamber. You will need 2 hands to get the gun to actually fire. But with training it is still pretty fast. And it is really really safe. It can't go off if there is no shell in the chamber. Use it as a club if you have to.

I'm not going to tell you how much you should shoot a person but there are a few things that are true. Most gunfights are over in 3 shots or less, often that is because somebodys gun jams. When things get up close and personal guns are very likely to jam if something touches them while you are trying to fire them. If they go more than 3 shots they are likely to go much longer as people take cover and shoot at each other, this doesn't happen often. I can guarantee you that if you shoot somebody and they are alive to talk about it they are going to make up lies you won't believe. They are going to say you started the whole thing and they were trying to retreat or surrender or begging for their life when you shot them.I promise you they will lie.

A gun COULD be carried in a pocket if you have a good holster. Again, not my favorite.
All of this though is a matter of personal comfort level and you will have to decide for yourself.

I would strongly suggest you look into retention position shooting.(shooting with the gun pulled up close to your body.) With your martial arts training I think you are more likely than the average person to try to find an up close solution to a problem. If you stick your gun out in front of you where a person can grab it, they will. There is a good chance it will jam, or even be wrenched away from you.

Hopefully all this is just unnecessary preparation.

Good luck with the dirt bag.

They come in a variety of sizes, some more appropriate to concealed carry than others. One thing that bothers some newer shooters is that only a few of their models come with an external safety, but if you're considering a glock, you've probably already come to terms with that.

Ouch.

It's why I thought the P99 might be a good match. I'll go to a range and try a variety of weapons (again, even if I don't buy I DO want to do that and part of my initial mission is to get used to the characteristics of at least a couple of different revolvers and pistols, and possibly long guns, just as basic urban-living background) but I narrowed it down to the three I mentioned because they were pistols that sounded, at least from what I initially gleaned from the Web, better suited out of the box for someone with larger hands. The Glock made me nervous with the safety thing and the USP just sounded like it was overpriced and offered nothing especially better than other options. That XD does look tiny (too small for my hand, at least without some extension?), unless all I'm seeing on the Web are the subcompact models, and I do like the idea of toting something that's at least a little less uncomfortable and bulky than he P99 or similar. Who knows what I'd actually get, though.

Thanks!

You obviously have a great many qualms about owning a gun, so maybe you shouldn't get one. I would think with you knowledge of martial arts, the Taser would give you a definitive advantage in any type of altercation, and you won't have to deal with the moral quandry of owning something that you hate.

First, I'm Taser qualified and can use one on duty. It's a fine bit of technology when used within it's limitations. I've taken a ride on the lighting and can assure you that it is a pervasive and memorable bit of pain. Give me a Taser with a set of training leads and I can make waterboarding seem downright quaint.

The problem with using one in a home defense setting is that after the device has cycled, the suspect regains full motor function. Not a problem for me because I can have someone in cuffs before they are lucid again. Most folks can't do that. So your only option is to escape, and that's not a bad option, but do you have time to get all your family members out before the Taser quits it's cycle? You either have to be able to flee to safety or subdue the individual if you are planning on using a Taser.

They are really great for vicious dogs. Even in that application I'd prefer OC spray or foam.

I can assure you that if Tasers were that great every Police Department in the country would issue them instead of a firearm.

and then lock them up or just smack them into unconsciousness (once again, you never know when you hit someone if this'll be the moment their undiagnosed aneurism ruptures or any other randomly fatal thing occurs, so this is hardly an ideal solution) 'til I can call the police and find some cable ties or similar. Doesn't sound like something that'd be very useful to me, though. It would have been that night, possibly, but if I'd tased him he's definitely the sort who'd hold that against me and, in making him more mad, I'd probably be upping the chances of him coming after me (not that he knows where I live now, though he knows where I work...hard to hide that, I'm afraid) some drunken night.

Not for fun, I hasten to add!

I don't think a taser would do it; I'm not inordinately worried about what might happen at close range (sure, if someone with a GUN is within arm's reach I'm in serious trouble, but I'd hope to at the very least avoid them getting that close in the first place) but more worried about facing a gun that's close enough to place a bullet in my vital areas but far enough away that I can't close the gap (suicide mission though that might be...I'm talking ideal situation here, in which the gun's recognized by me but not yet deployed) or, preferably, escape the scene. If I'm a hundred feet away from the bozo I'm going to be less concerned, though very concerned with turning that into a thousand feet, and I'm also going to be less concerned if I'm three feet away from him...it's the bits in between that worry me, and tasers don't help much with that. Besides, just as with empty hands, you're still talking about a weapon that can potentially end someone's life, as has been proven a few too many times lately.

In Caliber, consider only 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP in Semi Automatics, or in revolvers .357 Magnum, or a modern .38 Special

My reasons for the short caliber list is two fold, Proven effectiveness, and wide availability. I own many firearms, and the fact of the matter is, it is hard to find ammo for some, easy for others. If you purchase a gun in the above calibers, you can walk into anyplace that sells ammo, and walk out with some (provided the hoarders did not beat you to it)

Also, by being very popular, those calibers tend to be a bit cheaper, for practice, even the .357 mag, is very versatile, being able to train on inexpensive .38 spl ammo, than to the .357 magnum self defense ammo for carry! Does this mean you only shoot .38's to practice with, NO, you still need to shoot some full power .357 ammo, to acclimate to the stronger recoil and blast. But you can shoot .38's and get damn good with the gun on the cheap!

2nd.

Some of the things you mentioned above, about "weak laws" and such, you got the info from the Brady Campaign. Do not refer to them for gun info...To put it bluntly, they don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. They have long been exposed as lying frauds

Trust, us, your fellow DU members, your among Friends here, WE WANT YOU TO BE A RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNER, we will help you all we can, because if tradagy strikes, Villiger will be down here posting about it, and others will use YOU, as an example for more controls.

Secondly, POLITICS ASIDE, the NRA does do alot of great work, in teaching new shooters, gun safety and how to shoot. Their is a wealth of good the NRA does, in spite of their politics

If I recall correctly, you don't even need to be a member to take those classes, but you certainly will be solicited.

All the VPC and the Brady Campaign does, is whine, lie, and moan, I have never heard them going into schools and holding classes on Gun Safety.

I have carried a gun for years here in Virginia, with my CCW Permit(actually a CHL in VA), I know the laws of my state, like the back of my hand. Carrying a gun, is a great responsibility and it is not for everyone. I must have complete mastery of my emotions. Since I have started carrying, I find myself flat out avoiding ANY situation that could get out of hand, where in the past, I would stand up point and shout "WTF!!!" Now, I turn my back and walk a way.

I do this knowing that if I stand up and yell "WTF" and a fight breaks out, things could go bad QUICK...Even if it is just fisticuffs, even if I DON"T DRAW IT, I am in deep trouble...

So now I walk away from all conflict... Some think it makes me a coward, but what they don't know is in a way, I am protecting their life, and they will never know it.

See, if I get into a fight, and it starts going badly for them, they might make a mistake, and pick up a rock, a stick, or pull a pocket knife...Than, my training will take over, as the fist fight, just turned into a mortal threat.

Carrying a gun, everyday, on you, is very different than having one at home in the nightstand. Emotions don't really matter when someone is breaking down your door at 3 AM. Can you control your emotions???? Can you remain completely calm, when faced with an irate person in a parking lot?? Can you say "my bad" and apologize, just to defuse the situation even tho your completely in the right??

You need to ask yourself these questions and really ponder them, before you get a CCW permit.

I'm not in a hurry to rush out to buy a gun because, apart from my general aversion to them, I first want to take my time to start learning and then get some hands-on experience with different weapons. For all I know, the impetus for me even considering having a gun will disappear in that time -- he'll die or move far away -- but the experience of using and learning how to handle and maintain a firearm will still be invaluable and is something I could have benefited from having done already. Also, of course, economic times have not been so great all the way around and I'm unfortunately not exactly rolling in semolians like I occasionally was until a year or so ago, so plunking down a few hundred dollars for a suitable gun is not something to be taken lightly even from a purely fiscal standpoint and, in that regard, if 9mm ammunition will do the job and save me a bundle over even the next step up (that'd be .40 for a non-revolver, right?) then so much the better, and I can make more holes in more targets without having to overuse the ATM.

I'll bear that in mind about the Brady people. I'm predisposed to trust the Brady name, of course...not because of James, the poor man, but because Mr and Mrs Brady always seemed to know what was best for their Bunch on TV when I was a kid. The NRA isn't the only group around with their own agenda, I suppose.

I understand what you mean about maintaining control, even when those about you are losing theirs. I'm hardly Count Danté, with my fists registered at the local police department as lethal weapons, but I'm pretty used to the idea of the ultimate defense being not having to display an obvious one, the real winner of a fight being the person who makes sure the fight never starts. It's kind of my nature, anyway, but even it if wasn't it's a concept that's been drummed into me for decades now by teachers, my reading, and so on. Those of us who understand this are, unfortunately, ahead of the government of our own country (well, actually, I'm sure we both know that they understand things a lot more clearly than their actions suggest)...

I only skimmed your post because I have to get going.

I was born and raised in suburban NJ (outside NYC) which is almost like coming from another country where guns are illegal for civilians to own. ;)

Now I live in a state where guns ownership is more common. I took to shooting as an adult and I benefited from taking a gun safety course (not to be confused with hunter education course). My college offered continuing education classes, but many gun clubs or ranges offer classes too. Honestly, I'd like to take more.

The three guns you mentioned are all good. The HK is top of the line, but the G19 is a gun some people call the perfect all around defensive handgun. Walthers are nice, too. As someone mentioned, there are gun ranges (I'm sure plenty in Nevada) who will let you rent these guns and shoot them so that you can get a good sense of what feels best. In the end, you may go with another one, like a revolver or a shotgun.

Many of use here in the Guns forum own guns for the same reason you are considering one -- we just want to have a tool that may be able to be used to help defend ourselves if a violent person threatens our well-being.

I recommend getting a quick access lock-box even if you don't have children around. It will help give you peace of mind when your not around that no one who happens upon it will accidentally pick it up and pull the trigger. Kids and guests can be nosy when they visit.

This is mine.


You can see the mechanic push buttons better in this stock picture of a similar safe.


A lot of people like this biometic (finger print reader)/electronic push button model.

:D

Seems like it sometimes, anyway.

Actually, much of it is...if you're a naval aviator or USAF pilot.

Yes, no shortage of gun ranges hereabouts and I am the kind of person who, when I get into something, wants to learn as much as I can about it. It sounds like there're a lot of resources in this town for that. In this instance, it's seeming to me like a good way to enhance my own survival and ensure I'm less likely to do anything stupid that'll hurt anyone else, too.

If I go all the way and do buy a gun, something like your safe seems perfect. I really don't want more than one firearm (not at this point, anyway) so that'd do the job nicely. Concealed carry would, now that I no longer live with the immediate possibility of the aforementioned clown crashing though my door, be my primary goal in owning a gun right now, and I guess I'd eventually work out the trade-off between being free of the thing and running the risk of not having it on me when I actually might need it. Either way, it helps even the odds a bit even if I do not tote it with me all or even most of the time.

The whole thing sucks, though, really. Though I think I'd make the most of a bad situation and get into the Zen of placing speeding metal projectiles into increasingly more precise patterns at a distance.

How do you reconcile these two statements you made?

"many of the people who own and use them responsibility need not inherently be a problem and, in line with the old valid argument that bad guys get guns even when they're decriminalized, at this point I'd be considering a gun even if it was illegal for me to own one"

"Yes, where I hail from you have to have a license to own and use a gun, testing for which is pretty much like that of a car license (and high on stressing safety and familiarity with gun-related laws), and I fail to see why the same is not true in the USA, in every state -- ideally on a Federal level for maximum consistency, my background perhaps making me forever wondering why so many Americans seem deathly afraid of national governance -- because you've got to have a license to drive a car and requiring the same for gun ownership seems a small imposition well worth imposing and not at odds with the precious Second Amendment."


You want more federal restrictions on gun ownership with consistency between states, but if that should stop you from aquireing a gun, you would obtain one despite the law?

Bad guys, in any country, can always get guns if they have the money for them. And in areas where certain guns are verboten, they can get those, too, for a price. Hard to deny. But I think requiring gun owners to rigorously and in a systematized setting demonstrate knowledge of applicable laws and of safety procedures, on paper and with hands-on demonstration (in other words, no different than a driver's license) -- not just for CCW but for all gun ownership -- is not asking a lot. I think it'd benefit the gun owners, too, especially those who do not think it necessary to pursue any continuing training or otherwise become a little more expert with their weapons and keeping them safe. I'm not up on gun laws, mainly because they've largely been not-especially-relevant to me, but I gather that some states have something like this in place. I just think all states should and that it makes sense to have a Federal mandate for that. Anyone who balks at having the equivalent of a motor vehicle operator's permit for owning and using a device that's intended to kill (deer, people, empty tin cans, whatever) just doesn't make sense to me.

And, yes, if I really felt I needed a gun and I lived somewhere where they were banned, I'd consider getting one illegally. I know I'm not a bad guy and I know I wouldn't misuse it. I'd also know I was a criminal, strictly speaking, but I'd be okay with that if I felt the threat to my life (or that of someone I cared for) was tangible enough. In one of the places I've lived where all guns are banned I knew a couple of people who kept old war-souvenir pistols, in part as a hedge against increasing gang activity thereabouts, who would be very unlikely to ever drag them out for use and only confided in me because they knew me very well...I can't condemn them for that.

It's all pretty moot. Right now I live in one of the places where guns are easiest to get hold of, legally. Besides, when I lived in a gun-free society (you know what I mean; yeah, a few bad apples in gangs and so on had handguns and other illegal firearms and ownership of 'working' guns in rural areas was very high) I never felt the need to arm myself. Even now, the impetus for my considering a handgun is solely that someone who has it out for me has one and has indicated that he's willing to use it. If he had nothing with greater medium- to long-range threat potential than a knife, I'd not be considering a gun (even recognizing that, ideally, if they have a knife you're going to want to have a gun, and if they have a gun you're going to be wanting to have a tank, etc, etc). Classic arms race.

I would advise that you train so that you are as comfortable with a firearm as you are with your martial arts. Muscle memory and all that stuff. As you are aware it takes quite a bit of training for those actions to become second nature as is necessary in an actual combat situation. Shooting that much would be expensive but dry firing with snap caps would be beneficial. Target practice with a .22 pistol if you could rent one would probably also be beneficial and much cheaper. Obviously though you need to shoot, the firearm you decide to use for self defense, a considerable amount which will be expensive.

David

autonomous, almost a reflex, right? I say 'almost' because at some point our brains need to be in charge of proceedings, of course. Practice, practice, practice...same old story!

IMO, its a "mindset" that you have to have when you decide to conceal carry. You have to accept the fact and more importantly the RESPONSIBILITY that you might kill/injure someone with a firearm. THAT was a big hurdle for me to overcome and now that I do carry I find myself asking "Why didn't I get one sooner?". I just recently got into firearms about 2 years ago and have myself an HK USP 9 and a Remington 870 HD(Home defense) shotgun.


After you have gotten familiar with your handgun, a few months, look at some local IDPA/IPSC/USPSA type/style shooting competitions. I use my carry gun, the HK USP 9, for IDPA.

Yep, that's the site I looked at when I first started really thinking seriously about this a year ago. I'll peruse his articles again now.

I mean 'fun' not in the frivolous sense, but more in that it's something that'd probably appeal to me quite a bit, once I've got a good, solid handle on the basics and on nailing static targets. And, yes, I'm anything but thrilled about the prospect of having to use a gun for real, and quite possibly killing someone as a result, and if you're going to carry (or have a gun for defense at all) then that's obviously what you have to be prepared to do.

Much as I hope to never again need to have an all-out fistfight in my defense or that of someone else, I'd sooner have a dozen more of them than ever have to fire a gun at a person. We never know what we'll do, for sure, until we do it, but I think I'd be able to shoot someone if the threat were dire enough but extremely, extremely unlikely to ever take that possibility lightly or forget that any gun I have or pick up can be way too easily used to end a person's life. The only difference in me that now makes me consider buying or at least learning to use a gun, really, is that recent events have highlighted that I live in an environment in which learning how to deploy a firearm and how not to blow off your own kneecaps or eject the magazine at exactly the wrong moment really does make sense. It's going back to my cub-scout days, I guess: Be Prepared.

he will probably be required to turn his firearm over to the police.

Restraining orders often don't work but they do give you some advantage. If he starts problems, the authorities have a record of the situation and this puts you in a better position. Plus, if you do have a restraining order and he enters your house with evil intent, you will face fewer questions if you have to confront him with lethal force.

You indicate that you have a background in the martial arts. While this is positive it does have limitations. My daughter trained for years under one of the best judo instructors in the country. This instructor also taught a class in Jiu Jitsu. The instructor, Ed Maley, held a eighth degree black belt in judo and a sixth degree in karate. He would often say, "A man with a .45 auto has a ninth degree belt." Your post indicates that you are aware of this.

You state I have a fairly strong feeling that guns are rarely useful in self-defense. By that I mean that the most obvious need for a gun is when you, yourself, are threatened by some gun-wielding sociopath, and it seems to me that -- more often than not -- you're going to get shot if you go for your gun (shot at, anyway).

Firearms are used frequently in self defense situations. You usually only hear about the incidents where shots are fired. My daughter was able to stop an intruder forcing the sliding glass door of our home open by pointing a large caliber revolver at him. A firearm can often be a deterrent and a powerful one.

You might consider two firearms. One for your home and one for concealed carry. A large handgun makes a good home protection weapon but is a pain for concealed carry. A shoulder holster is a nuisance to put on, so you may frequently leave the weapon behind. The first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun. Most people that I've known have a holster collection as it takes a while to find something that works for concealed carry.

While semi-autos are very popular for self defense and concealed carry, I prefer the old tried and true revolver. Revolvers are simple to operate and reliable. They don't have confusing little levers like a safety or a decocker to cause you to fumble in an emergency. I carry two different revolvers depending on the situation.


S&W Model 642 38+P

This is my most frequent carry weapon. I place it in a pocket holster and drop it into my pocket. Since it has no hammer, it's snag free when you draw it. It does however have a nasty recoil and it takes a while to master since it has a stiff double action trigger. If you are interested, a good review is at:
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm


This is not a good pocket gun, so I carry it in an inside the waistband holster. It's heavier but more manageable. It is also far easier to master than the S&W Mode 642. It would be an excellent choice for home protection as well as concealed carry. A review can be found at:
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/Model_60-15.htm

Of course, you want to take some firearm classes and spend a lot of time on the range practicing. Shooting is a martial art and requires training and practice to master. You don't get any belts as you improve, but the skill and the weapon may save your life. Most people find shooting an enjoyable hobby and you probably will meet some interesting people. Don't expect to be surrounded by illiterate rednecks who say words like "insultin'", "yur" and "yuze". You may be surprised to meet many professionals such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, preachers and professors. A large percentage of the people you meet will have a college education.

I've seen many people who came to the range with a story similar to yours. While they were hesitant at first, they discovered that shooting can be a fun and rewarding hobby.

I realize the threat is always real, at least in potential, but I rarely seriously believe it'll come to fruition. It could, but even just having physically removed myself from him (left the condo we shared a year ago this week, on the night the last major blowup happened...) makes it increasingly unlikely. It's really just the fact I know he's so unhinged, especially when lubricated by alcohol, that gives me pause. I haven't even bothered to look into restraining orders, so I didn't know that about the possibility they'd confiscate the gun (though, last I knew, he was living with some woman who has an arsenal of them, anyway). One thing I know for sure is that if I get a restraining order on him, from what for months now is basically (at least from his perspective) out of the blue, I'd rile him up. That's a definite, with him: he's one of those people, and I'm sure we all know them, for which everything he does to mess up his life somehow turns out to be everyone else's fault and, to add to the fun, he rants and raves about how thy have to pay for that (granted, it's mostly just hot air, but testing that observation would be silly). I'm not in a hurry to make my worry of aggressive action from him become a self-fulfilling prophecy, gun or no gun. I just vaguely figured that, if he shows up where I work (about the only way he has of finding me now) and creates a scene I'll have security on him very quickly and file a restraining order then. I recognize this is hardly an ideal plan...

If I really had my wits about me -- and I was pretty much preoccupied with protecting the door to my room and person who was with me -- I'd have called the police that night. Should have. Didn't even think of it.

Thanks for the input on defense and on those revolvers. It's looking like, from the responses here, if I'm interested in a revolver I probably want a .357 with a non-snubnose barrel, and the weight isn't too much of an issue both because I am a big dude and because I do not plan on carrying it everywhere I go. I like the idea of a shoulder holster, for concealability, but in this environment it sounds like I'd be better served most of the year with a hip or pocket holster. Details to see about when and if I get a gun and try out a few different options, I suppose. Given that I'm extremely unlikely to ever use a gun in defense, my prime concern in day-to-day matters is safety, of course.

I'll definitely include revolvers in my explorations -- well, I for darn sure want to try some out as part of Plan A (getting a basic familiarity with handguns at a range), but I'll try them out with Plan B (buying a gun) in mind, too. Simple is good. I don't think I want more than one gun, though. The immediate threat that's on-and-off worried me this past year is stepped down if only by virtue of my not having seen the bozo since then and I don't feel the need to buy two handguns or a handgun and a shotgun. Not yet, anyway. If I was more worried about a general breakdown in US society (a continuance of it, I mean, and one would definitely be expected with the economic climate and the national culture of aggression and bullying, let alone a lot of people returning from war who need help) I'd be a lot more interested in such, but right now I'm still largely unconcerned with my general safety. My job probably even makes me a little more of a target than the average dude but, on the other hand, it also has (demonstrably, in that I've seen this many times) the effect of encouraging strangers to spring to my defense, and I've somehow developed some interesting acquaintances here who'd make short work of anyone who messes with me in their presence (including a couple of real Hells Angels and a few who think they're Hells Angels). I've had some interesting experiences here in Las Vegas, for better and for worse, that's for sure... :D

Try some different firearms to determine your own preferences. I tend to like revolvers for the simplicity and reliability, but many shooters consider me old fashioned. Therefore I'll mention just a couple semi-auto handguns.

My son in law carries a Glock 27 .40 caliber pistol which is small enough for pocket carry and a great choice for an inside the waistband holster.



Be aware that if you purchase a Glock it's imperative that you use a good holster if you plan to carry it with a chambered round. The Glock safety is on the trigger, which has been compared to putting the parking brake release on the accelerator pedal of a car.

A review of the Glock 27 can be found at:
http://www.policeequipmentreviews.com/articles65.html

My son in law is on the waiting list to obtain a lighter pistol for pocket carry, the Ruger LCP. This weapon is chambered for a less powerful caliber, the .380 acp. Many people consider this a "mouse gun", but with proper ammo it should be an effective self defense weapon.



A review of this weapon can be found at:
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCP.htm

If you join a good shooting range and express interest, you should find several experienced shooters who will be more than willing to help you with advice and often they will let you try their weapons. If you do mention that you are a Democrat, you may face some good-natured razing.

You may find that you enjoy shooting as a hobby or a sport. It's challenging and far from as easy as it looks on TV or the movies. If you do enjoy shooting, you may buy other handguns. If so, I would recommend a target quality .22 revolver or pistol. These weapons are inexpensive to shoot and can teach you the basics of slight alignment and trigger control with very little recoil.

Good luck on your situation. Chances are that everything will work out well and that you will journey down life's path without ever having to use a weapon for self defense. Having to use a firearm for legitimate self defense is the last thing that most knowledgeable gun owners wish for. If you find yourself in a situation where there is no other choice, you want the training and skill to use your weapon effectively to save yourself from serious harm. The aftermath of such an encounter is not pleasant and can leave you with permanent scars, but if you are lucky and skilled, you should survive.

I hope when you have an encounter with "the pig" you are documenting it. If you're ever in a situation where you have to defend yourself physically against him and he ends up in the hospital or morgue its better for you if there are police reports to reference back to. Get a restraining order if possible. That's documentation there's a problem with him. That's one of the suggestions that Massad Ayoob makes.

I'd suggest as others did you read and/or watch books/dvds from Massad Ayoob. He's a police officer, trainer(his courses are training in law & range time), and he is an expert witness in both police and civilian self-defense shootings.

I make sure to read his columns in Combat Handgun and other gun magazines.

Also if you get the outdoor channel a great show to watch is Best Defense. Hosts are Michael Bane, Rob Pincus, Michael Janich. They cover self-defense situations CCW holders may encounter and how to properly handle. They also cover some unarmed combat. http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Shows/TheBestDefense.aspx

As far as guns and carry all you mentioned are good. I have a Glock 19 and it is a great, reliable, accurate firearm. If you're buying just for carry I'd also consider the equivalents in .40 or .45 calibers. 9mm is a good caliber, but the latter 2 are better stoppers.

For hot weather carry, google that. I don't think a shoulder holster is a good option, but you have to find what you like. Find some firearms forums and ask there as well. Inside the waistband holsters are great options, google Bruce Nelson Summer Special. I've never tried myself but some CCW's like Thunderwear. Another great summer carry option is a snubbie lightweight revolver in a pocket holster. If you wear pants/shorts with large pockets a snubbie will hide well. Look for something like a Mika or Nemesis holster. Some of the smaller semi-autos can be carried this way as well.

I'd suggest taking a basic handguns course and tactical or concealed carry class. Also I'd take a class on self-defense wtih a gun and the law if anyone offers.

Dry fire & range time are great ways to get comfortable and to train muscle memory.

If you really can't make the commitment that if you have to draw your gun you will kill attacker if necessary then I'd suggest going with a taser and/or pepper spray.

If you'd like to get in some shooting time drawing from a holster, learning to handle problems and shooting on the move you might want to try the gun games of IDPA and/or USPSA. Should be a number of matches in your area. IDPA is actually based on using a handgun for self-defense situations though it is not training I think it does prepare you just as training in the martial arts arena is training for reaction and muscle memory. Matches are usually in the $10-15 range.

I man, that's what they're there for: to protect people like me from people like him. And I really don't know about filing a restraining order now, because it'll inevitably just get him worked up -- for sure, he'd not hesitate to violate the order, his self-destructive nature only being exacerbated by alcohol, though he'd likely have to come to wherever I'm working to do anything stupid. I do have belligerent phone messages on tape, as well as e-mails, but unfortunately he wasn't quite dumb enough to leave an actual death threat on my voicemail. I do have a witness to the night I referred to: she's a DUer.

Thunderwear? I like that. Sounds very much like a cool name for adult diapers, though, I have to say.

Thanks very much for your points of advice. Yes, I'm going to read and get some range time in no matter whether I buy a gun or not but, if I DO get a gun, I'll be wanting to know all I can about the thing and how to use it and not use it, and get as good as I can. If knowledge really is power, then it's still going to take a lot of knowledge to begin to equal the power and destructive potential of even a small-caliber handgun.

The more I read about this IDPA thing, the more I like it. Yes, it sounds like your equating it to martial arts training, sparring without a live opponent, is pretty apt. May save my life, too, you never know (or someone else's).

I live in Vegas also. If you want to try a gun out before you buy, call American Shooters on Spring Mountain and Arville. They have a pretty good selection to choose from. Personally, I practice at Discount Firearms on Highland (I think), across the street from Herda's. They have automatic target lanes, and you can practice under timed conditions as well. They have a limited supply of rentals.

As far as a weapon, I would suggest a revolver. If it comes down to protecting yourself, a revolver will NEVER jam. Also, you don't have to either have one in the chamber already (something I wouldn't recommend without a lot of familiarity with weapons) or take the time to rack the slide. If you go with a revolver, Ruger makes the SP101 in .357 magnum. It will also shoot .38 special, which is a good practice caliber. I'm not familiar with S&W, but I'm sure you can get a small frame revolver from them also. Consider looking at Taurus or Rossi guns as well. Whatever you buy, do some research online first, and if possible rent one to see how it feels.

Once you get it, PRACTICE! Buying a gun will not automatically make you an expert, trust me.

If you want to check out a fairly large supply of stuff, there is a gun show at the sports complex on Sunset this weekend (23-24 May). I'm going there to try to find reloading supplies, nothing available on line. Just remember that there will be some wackos hanging around, give them space and try to enjoy the other stuff. A warning-they are charging $14 to get in the door. You can find coupons online to cut the cost to $12, but that's about it.

In any case, I hope you never have to use it for self-protection. However, it's better to be prepared-just in case.

Good luck.

Thanks for the heads-up on those two local ranges. And thanks for the additional information on revolvers. Much of what I've read here is surprisingly (given the sheer volume of information on handguns that's on the Web) stuff I've not yet seen mention of elsewhere, and tendency for pistols to jam is one of those things. That would, indeed, suck. The whole idea of having around up the spout has long freaked me out, partly because I've handled a couple of old guns that were put away loaded and I had not only no idea how to handle the thing or check its status but in one instance I gave it to a gun enthusiast (this was a German WWII Luger, from what I gather a rather tricky gun to handle safely) who ended up just firing it into the ground to clear it. Again, just another thing I'm worried about that's purely a function of not ever being schooled on the workings of a handgun or how to deal safely with various types and models.

I saw the billboards for the big gun show and checked out the Web site but I was working yesterday and tomorrow I sleep (yay!). I decided against it, anyway, because none of it would mean much to me yet...I'm not going to rush out to take care of this gun stuff but when I do it's going to start with some reading, a visit to two or three of the local places to see about courses and the like, and then getting in to a course or two (or more), gaining hands-on experience with a few different weapons and, finally, maybe a purchase. Maybe the same show next year...see you there!

With more rental gun ranges than just about anywhere else in the country. You can rent lots of different handguns at the local ranges and figure out which one you like best. The most important thing when choosing a gun is finding one that feels natural for you to hold and fire.

The Glock 19 is a great choice, the others not so much. The HK USP is expensive and while it's very accurate, that's just about its only good quality. It has poor balance, a mag release that's hard to reach without shifting your grip, and its internal parts are known to break much more frequently than competing guns. The Walther P99 is also mediocre compared to the Glock, with inferior (IMO) ergonomics and reliability. Glocks have the cheapest magazines and accessories of just about any pistol because they're so widespread, and they have the highest reliability of all semiautos. Their trigger pull is the same every time you fire (not the case with some other guns) so they're easy to learn.

One thing to remember about Glocks is if you carry one concealed, you must practice proper trigger discipline, meaning you should never put your finger on the trigger unless you're ready to shoot. Glocks do not have safety catches and their triggers are relatively light, so while they're fast and instinctive to use they can be dangerous for novice shooters who aren't as safe in their gun handling as they should be.

Another good option is the CZ75 P-01, a compact pistol made of lightweight alloy. It has excellent ergonomics and very high reliability. It has a heavy first trigger pull, which helps prevent negligent discharges if you're slack with trigger discipline. You may also opt for a full-sized CZ75, some of which have safety catches. You can talk to someone at a gun store to learn the difference between double action only triggers and double action/single action triggers; you may end up preferring one type over the other.

As for your ideas on gun control, it looks like you've just discovered what so many of us have: the idea of an enlightened society where no one need resort to violence is a nice fantasy, but when the rubber meets the road you need to do what it takes to stay safe. And you'll do a better job protecting yourself from murder and mayhem than any government could, especially considering that governments have been the biggest murderers in recorded history (262 million people in the 20th century alone).

I'll try at least the P99 and Glock of those original three I mentioned, though (and maybe some other Glocks), but the USP sounds like a not-too-sensible choice. I'd probably be fine with trigger discipline, even under stress, I'm sure, but right now the idea understandably freaks me out (in that just the thought of handling guns at this point still chills me a bit). I understand a manual safety lever being not something everyone would be enthused about, because it takes a moment to disengage and I imagine aim might shift a little while doing so (unless it's feasible to master some safety-off-during-the-draw technique, that'd seem to almost negate part of the safety's job), but if you were in a situation where you were holding a gun on someone surely you wouldn't want to have your finger inside the trigger guard yet?

The CZ 75 sounds an interesting choice. Police forces sure seem to like it. Thanks!

You've got plenty of good advice already in this thread. My thoughts;

Hanging around gun-stores will lead to "cultural anthropology" experiences. Be polite, but do not show interest or your ears will get talked off. When you handle a gun to "take a look" keep your finger off the trigger and point it somewhere safe. Check for rounds in the chamber and fiddle to your heart's content. The clerks are usually polite, but if they won't answer your questions take your business elsewhere.

Get something with a flashlight on it or a rail for mounting a flashlight. Most home invasions occur at night, and turning a tactical flashlight on in an intruder's face can give you an advantage.

Laser Sights- see above. For when you can't get a decent sight picture. Also has a psychological effect at night.

Shotguns are cheap and effective- you can get a cheap Mossberg or Remington for 250-300 dollars. Cheap handguns run from $600 upwards. More cash nets more useful features ("Bling" in the words of some DU'ers) such as pistol grips, extended magazines, better sights and light mounts. 12 gauge 00 buck is the classic round for self defense- it has all the stopping power you need without the risk of over-penetration. If you want a home-defense weapon buy a shotgun.

Having the right mentality is more important than any weapons choice, but I'm sure you already know that from your martial arts. Happy shopping.

I'll definitely watch out for the gun-store anthropology pitfalls...I've already run into some supremely interesting ('interesting' in this case being "please just get the hell away from me") people in this town, I have to say.

I always wondered about the flashlight thing; I mean, just from watching movies and wondering why anyone would want to give the bad guy a shortcut to their centerline (unless it's held away from the body, of course, during the exploratory phase, but still...it'd really be a major letdown to hold your gun out to your side with the flashlight on and then come across some charitable bad guy in the dark who inexplicably just wants to fire a warning shot a couple of feet to the side of you!). Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that things suggested by movies have turned out to not be so much a worry in real life, I suppose.

I can see the psychological effectiveness of a laser sight, even aside from other considerations. Again, back in the movies, when you see that laser dot settle on someone it's pretty much time for them to exit the screenplay, so I imagine many of us are conditioned to dread the little red dot even though we have no experience with being shot at. I suppose I could just forget about a gun and use my trusty laser pointer as my defensive option, but it'd suck to have the other person call my bluff...

The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, specifically the edition by Massad Ayoob. This is the best overview of self-defense law, shooting technique, situational awareness, equipment choice, ammunition choice, and training issues that you will find in a single volume, bar none. Spend the $20 to get this ASAP. It will allow you to make intelligent decisions with regard to whether or not you want to purchase a gun in the first place, what kind of gun/ammunition, how to store it responsibly while keeping it accessible, how to become competent to use it, when you can and cannot use it defensively, and much more.

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Combat-Handgunnery/dp/0896895254


Amazon lists it right now for $16.49.

Get. This. Book. :headbang:

Be aware that there are some other editions not written by Mr. Ayoob; avoid these, as they are much less practical IMO.


OK, beyond that (sermon mode off), my own thoughts on the topic. Do you prefer a handgun vs. a long gun, or is that still an open question? Handguns are much easier to store, and are much easier to have on your person or within easy reach around the house. On the other hand, a shotgun is easier to shoot well, and a 12-gauge/.729 caliber shotgun vastly overmatches a handgun at close range, BUT the shotgun has considerably more recoil, is considerably less portable, and storage is more complicated. A handgun can be stored loaded in one of those small thick-gauge Sentry key-lock safes from Wal-Mart or somewhere, or in a quick-access electronic safe like a Gun Vault, but you need a much bigger box to secure a shotgun. I am personally a big fan of small-caliber rifles (e.g., AR-15) as defensive tools, but they do share all the storage disadvantages of shotguns, and if you are just starting out, they may be unnecessarily complex to operate and maintain.

Revolver vs. pistol: I prefer pistols for capacity reasons and ease/speed of reloading, but revolvers are mechanically much simpler, and their function is easier to master; there is considerably less to learn with a revolver than with a pistol (i.e., you don't have to learn how to quickly clear a stoppage, there are no worries about forgetting to clear the chamber after dropping the magazine, maintenance is much simpler, etc.). The downside is low capacity; you can get an 8-shot .38 or .357 if you don't mind a gun that's hard to conceal, but a full-sized pistol of comparable size holds 15 to 19 rounds of 9mm. Since if a crisis occurs, you'll probably be protecting yourself with only the ammunition in the firearm, the extra capacity offers a margin of safety, though one would hope you'd never have to use it.

Caliber: In revolvers, I'd suggest a .357; all .357's can shoot both mild-recoiling .38 Special loads AND the much more powerful .357 Magnum. That gives you the option of using .38's to build proficiency (very little recoil, still an adequate defensive cartridge) and transitioning to .357 ammunition once you are practiced enough to handle the much greater blast and recoil of the more powerful cartridge. In pistols, my personal favorite is 9mm (aka 9x19mm, 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm NATO, all different names for the same cartridge). To me, .40 and .45 do not offer enough increased effectiveness to offset the reduction in capacity that comes with the larger calibers.

Revolver recommendations: If concealment is not a requirement, I'd go for capacity and ease of shooting, and pick a medium or large frame Taurus or Smith & Wesson .357 with a 4" or longer barrel. (Shorter barrels recoil more and are more demanding to shoot well.)

Fairly big:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=278&category=Revolver

Taurus Model 66, .357, stainless, 7-round capacity

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=265&category=Revolver

Taurus Tracker Model 627, .357, stainless, 7-round capacity


Really big:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=250&category=Revolver

Taurus Model 608, .357, stainless, 8-round capacity


If something more concealable is desired:

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=5719

Ruger SP101, model KSP-331X, .357, stainless, 5-round capacity

The downside of this one would be that it holds only 5 rounds, and will be more demanding to shoot well than the bigger ones.


Pistols: Glock 17 or 19, Springfield XD or XD(m) 9mm, Smith & Wesson 5906 (used), Ruger P-89 or P-95, Beretta 92. The S&W, Ruger P-89, and Beretta offer the option of a manual safety.


And whatever you get, budget some time and money for training and practice ammunition. A firearm is the most capable defensive tool available to non-LEO civilians, BUT they are not magic talismans, as you know; you have to be able to use it effectively.

If you can swing the expense, something like Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 class might be good; good shooting instruction plus very good information on self-defense law.

gets a lot of flak from some gun enthusiasts because he's just a little too honest and risk averse for the average recliner commando. He spends a lot of time discussing the consequences, legal, and psychological of actually shooting someone. Some also knock him because he's very conservative in his choice of firearms, preferring function over everything else. He is a leading authority on the very serious subject of carrying and using a firearm in self defense.

This is a very serious subject that deserves serious consideration. You cannot put the bullet back once you pull the trigger.

And for the emphatic recommendation of that edition of that book -- I just bought it (got it for a bit less new on eBay). Sounds like just the ticket, whether I use the information within on buying a gun or not, and written by someone who is worth reading.

As to your question, I definitely prefer a handgun. That's only because I think that, if I'm going to need the gun, I'll need it for concealed carry. A shotgun or something else may better for home defense, I realize, but in the inordinately unlikely event that something like that happens I imagine that having a few bullets available will at some point stop an attacker if there's no option but to fire them.

The fact is that with the leisurely (deliberate, actually) pace I'm going to follow in learning how to handle guns the threat that precipitated all of this may well totally disappear and, as it is, the fact I no longer share a dwelling with that person (or have had anything much to do with him since) has ratcheted that most immediate likely/unlikely threat down quite a bit. Just another reason why my initial goal, to learn how to use handguns and to demystify their handling -- perhaps a useful survival skill in today's USA for most people -- might be all I really need, though if I find shooting targets suitably Zen-like or get into something like IDPA I might find myself wanting to get a handgun anyway. Apart from an immediate threat like the one that roommate poses, I'm still not especially worried about general threat from unknown persons...not a reason NOT to get a gun, of course, but I'd feel less compelled to consider doing so even if I still want to learn more about the things (that Ayoob book will be a great aid, I'm sure).

Thanks very much, too, for the recommendations of both pistols and revolvers. There seems to be a lot of choice out there, though I'm sure that some will feel better than others just from first picking the thing up.

Generally, at least, so you can study them and see how they load and unload. That's a start. Try Ruger and Smith& Wesson first.


There's a thread in here, a recent thread, where similar questions were asked and lots of people gave good advice. Including me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x222202


It is interesting to see the evolution of your viewpoint, where they (handguns) started off as unknown objects you had been brought up to believe were "teh evil", and now you're getting from that point of instictive dislike into some kind of rational analysis.


The NRA-ILA has state-by-state gun law pamphlets. In this manner, I'd trust them more than the Brady Campaign... the Bradys generally get the objective facts wrong.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/ and click on your state.


I hope you never have to use your gun. And I also hope that if you do, the circumstances are crystal-clear in your favor, and the outcome is favorable for you.

I've looked at a few related threads here this past year and will definitely pop in to see what's being discussed...I'll go look at that thread now. Thanks for the link.

Yep, my view on guns has changed to some extent but more from basically seeing them as irrelevant to me and not something I really wanted to deal with to being seen as a potential survival tool that (given that the antagonist in this instance has one) seemed a rational thing to consider. Yes, where I come from handguns are illegal (competition shooters and collectors aside, and that's very heavily regulated) but, as in many nations with similar laws, there's no shortage of firearms in the country and it's more just that there's not really a tradition of owning handguns and it's never been a particular issue on the national landscape. Looking at the US, with its gun-related violence and deaths and the prevalence of forearms and relative ease (in some jurisdictions, anyway) of legally procuring one, I kind of miss that atmosphere, though the US is where I am now and reality is reality. Like most or all who contribute to this forum, if I do get myself a gun of any kind I am not going to be part of the problem in any but the most vaguely symbolic terms.

Thanks for the legal link: I downloaded Nevada's pamphlet. and thanks for the rather important wish at the end there; I hope nobody here has to use their gun on a person, too, because even if you're in the right that has got to be a thing that would take some dealing with.

If something happened with this "person" that you want to arm yourself against is it wise to go on a public forum and discuss that you are intentionally arming yourself to confront them? That you have contemplated a "pre-emptive defense that basically ended with me letting him join the ranks of all those other people buried in the desert around Las Vegas"? I wouldn't want a district attorney reading through a post like that while trying to defend myself in court, and dont think they can't find it. Some wont but I know some who make it a point to dig up this kind of stuff. Just saying. Technical CYA aside is getting a gun the only solution here(not that I'm opposed to that at all)? You state that this guy is armed, violent and unbalanced. Have you gone to the police? Even if only to make a report. From what you relate it seems as if he generally dangerous not only to you but to other as well. Maybe he forgets about you, but that may mean he's moved on to other targets. Isn't there a moral or civic responsibility to try to do something before it gets to that point. Maybe we'll be reading about this guy in the news with the little snippets of warning signs that were ignored. Just a thought.

Didn't really think of that, as evidenced most clearly by the Joe Pesci-like hole-in-the-desert thing. I was just being honest about the gamut of things that ran through my head that long night. Fairly obviously I did not kill him that night; he drank himself into unconsciousness, eventually, so that would have been the night I could have most easily and safely freed myself of the threat if I was so inclined.

I'm not too worried. For a start, this IS an anonymous board and, more to the point, I'm not planning to confront him or anyone else. I'd just as soon he never communicated with me again, and we're at a level close to that now (the wild card being his unpredictable and psycho behavior when drunk, which could be on any given night). If I do get a gun - and my first interest is more in learning how to use one than in having one of my own -- it's a purely defensive weapon, and if my ability to keep my fist and other strike-capable body parts out of other people's faces despite much provocation is any indication then I'm likely to be a responsible gun-toter supremely unlikely to use or even have to produce the piece.

Even if I for some reason blow him or anyone else away, and if the prosecution somehow finds out not only that I posted this DU thread but that I am who I am here, I'm not worried. For one thing, that's a lot of 'if,' especially that first one. As I responded above, the odds of this particular fool ever actually following through with anything are minimal and likely decreasing as time goes on. I sure as hell do not want to kill him. I don't want anything to do with him. All I ask is to be left the hell alone and if I'm mad at him still it's primarily because (a) as on that night and other occasions, I'm a grown adult of 40-something who resents being dragged into some dysfunctional old putz' persistent adolescent tantrum (tantrum on a nuclear scale though it may have been...but, really, it was all too much like being back on the playground, though perhaps Columbine's playground) and (b) the f***er's insanity has made me seriously consider arming myself with a gun, something I'd rather not have felt the need to entertain the prospect of doing. I mean, if I wanted to get into target shooting, or whatever, that's a whole other thing than being in a place from which you have to be prepared to defend yourself with deadly force.

I'm not sure what civic good I'd be doing by filing a restraining order on this person, either. All it'd do is inflame him. For what it's worth, I not only have threatening (but not threatening enough) messages from him, a witness to the last time he attacked me and threatened to kill me, and he's been banned from several places here in Las Vegas for his violent behavior...there's a pattern out there that's established and already filed on. A lot of people are on to him. It's even cost him jobs. He's a violent person but he doesn't carry his gun. He's far more likely to end up in jail as a result of a fistfight with a stranger. The person who needs to worry most is whoever he's living with and, if he's still with the women he was with last year, she (as do most of his acquaintances) knows full well how unstable and violent he is. She's a weirdo, too, who for some reason went back to him after she'd made a clean break. She's got more guns than he does, too, so it's more likely than your scenario that I'll be reading about a massive domestic gun battle in their living room.

All told, I'd rather he just move away. Far away.

The reason your giving for wanting a gun suggests that not only should you learn up on guns and shooting in general but you might want to really study the laws in your state about self defense and what constitutes assault in Nevada. Not just the penal code either but the case law will be more important. How are the courts in your area actually ruling presently on self defense claims? Also, are there civil liabilities? Will the person have a good chance of winning a lawsuit if you injure them severely? I know in my area these laws can turn on you fairly easily if your not knowledgeable. Only a lawyer in your area can really answer these questions. If you would be willing to go to a shooting range to be proficient in one aspect of self defense you don't want to neglect other important aspects of it either. There are some real horror stories involving unfriendly courts. Counting on anonymity on the internet may not be enough, your anonymous to me but IP logs+warrant might be a different story. Keep safe.