James Von Brunn was a convicted felon, I want to know where he got his gun.

And when that's determined I want the gun seller to go to prison for aiding a domestic terrorist.

The answer would be interesting if anybody can confirm or refute. I do know the laws are different for rifles, but since I've only ever bought or wanted to buy handguns I never bothered finding out in what specific ways.

There is a 4473 on every firearm purchased from a dealer. Now it waits to be seen if his shotgun (as they are reporting it to be) was purchased, stolen or what the deal is with it.

I've seen plenty of outlets that sell rifles but not handguns (usually things like sporting stores and department stores) and I must have assumed the reason was to avoid having to do the NCIS thing.

Of course now I know that's not it I wonder why they do that...!

Is out of state folks can generally purchase rifles in other state, with a NICS check and if said rifle is legal in their home state etc. etc. Pistols however, can be technically purchased but must be shipped to an in home state FFL to do the transfer to the person.

As somebody very right hand dominant but very left eye dominant long guns have never been an option. Pretty familiar with handgun laws and knew rifles were a bit easier but not the specifics. Makes a bit more sense now.

Many states have waiting periods on handguns, but not long guns, which means you can't close the sale on the spot.

Wally word stopped selling handguns simply for PR.

Figure Wally Word is the largest store in US. They sell more than anyone else.
If they sell handguns statistically a substantial portion of murders will be from Wally Word handguns.

Media take:
"Walmart's callous disregard for human life enables these murderers to purchase a military grade sidearm at over 5000 locations nationwide. Studies show that nearly out of 5 murders is committed with a Walamrt handgun! Walmart profit before human life."

One can purchase a long arm out of their home state but must do so from a licensed dealer and must go through a NICS check and the rifle must be legal to own in the home state.

State to state it varies. If it was bought within the confines of his home state, MD, I believe then I believe one can still legally purchase face to face legally without a NICS check. Now if he purchased face to face and the seller knew of his past then it is a crime.

1-Somebody could have straw purchased for him. This is a crime but not one of the FFL unless he was made aware or suspicious of such purchase.

2-He could have bought face to face through a legal transaction and unless the transferring person knew his background there is no crime. Personally I would like the option to use a limited version of the NICS check via internet or something that returned a simple yes or no to a private party who wanted to use it, alas this doesn't exist.

3-He could have stolen it.

Since we have no info on the make/model of rifle used, we can't tell whether it's a new one or an antique. Heck, it could be a pre-1898 for all we know.

But there is absolutely no question that this clown was a prohibited person and in NICS.

Basically there are numerous ways he could have gotten the firearm where no illegal acts were made by the seller.

Near 100 year old rifle.

......but that's just me.

Unfortunately, there are hundreds of thousands of felons, if not millions, walking the streets even though they tried to purchase a firearm licensed dealer, but were denied by NICS. These felons committed a crime trying to purchase a firearm, yet face no repercussions from doing so. They are left free to purchase guns on the black market and go about their business.

Its a gross act of negligence IMO.

in reponse to a question in a Congressional committee about why despite some million hits during NICs checks there had been only a handful of prosections. She went on to say, ".......it was never intended to arrest those who failed the check."

What the law actually says is that any combination of acts in which prohibited persons attempt to obtain firearms as well as the mere possession of any firearm are serious crimes with equally serious consequences. It says that if they touch a gun they have committed a felonious criminal act, and will be punished for it.

The law defines a series of specifically feloniously unlawful acts which are part of an "attempted acquisition" of a firearm by a prohibited person.

But let a prohibited person get "stopped" by a failed NICS check and nothing happens except the crook knows for sure the Fed's database has his name in it. It will never be followed up, he stands a better chance of winning the Powerball than ever getting just questioned by the authorities, much less arrested for trying to illegally buy that gun.

But then you have to recall the words of Howard Metzenbaum, "I don't care about crime, I just want to get the guns."

There were no 4473, and .22 caliber guns weren't even required a serial number. The guy is 88 year old. In the era he grew up, as did I, it was perfectly common for an 8 to 11 year old boy to get a .22 rifle for a birthdday or Christmas. It was one of those things that indicated how trustworthy and responsible (no doubt, quaint and archaic concepts) you had convinced your parents you were, like the first pocket knife or the first BB gun.

There are no 4473's on ANY gun manufactured prior to 1968 unless sometime subsequent the guns was sold or traded to an FFL, entered in his bound book and subsequently resold. It is entirely possible, maybe even probable that no law was broken, except a convicted felon failing to surrender to the authorities a gun they didn't know existed.

I own guns that are so old they do not qualify as firearms under the gun control act. One of them is a Short Second Land Pattern musket. The Short Land Brown Bess saw extensive use throughout the American Revolution and continued its dominance in the British Army until the 1790s. Through captured stores, the American Continental forces as well had a number of this weapon. It is possible that the Ministry of Defence in England might have a record of this gun, but the ATF sure doesn't. Even the British Army may have written it off as a combat loss long ago since the lock is dated 1772, and carries the GR cypher for King George.



It will still sling a 3/4 of an inch diameter lead ball with frightful results 226 years after it was built.

So I can sell my personally owned firearms.
If I sell to a prohibited person and I KNEW they were a prohibited person (underage, out of state for handguns, felon, mentally ill) that is a crime.

If I sell to a prohibited person and I don't know there is no crime.
Without access to NICS how can I verify someone is legal?

I would be for enabling access to NICS for private to private sales however I want any such system to be double blind.
I don't want some guy on craigs list getting access to everything he needs to commit identify fraud simply because I bought a firearm from him.

Some of DU have discussed various ways this could be accomplished while still protecting private information.

and the dealer either ignored the NICS check or straw purchased or broke any other laws then I ABSOLUTELY 100% agree with you. Dealer should face full charges, but only if they were in violation of any laws.

The gun dealer or seller (if purchased at a gun show or privately) should be sitting in the federal dock right next to this human piece of garbage. Immediate revocation of license for gun dealer, and impoundment of other firearms for private seller. Bluntly, most states gun laws do provide for this. Enforce the firearms laws we do have, and make any crime committed with a firearm a capital offense.

The last wouldn't have deterred von Brunn, but a couple of electrocuted gun dealers will have the rest of them being considerably more careful about to whom they sell firearms. I know in my area, most of the gun dealers tend to be pretty nosy about who's purchasing their guns, and we're probably 2nd or 3rd to Texas in having armed pickup trucks :evilgrin:.

I'm still pissed that the terrorist Scott Roeder isn't facing death for the assassination of Dr. Tiller. Operation Rescue is a terrorist organization and must be liquidated in the same way as al-Qaeda. Terrorism is terrorism, and all these scumbags (note that all of 'em are 'conservative' a/m reactionary) are following the same goals. Bluntly, it's time to quick turning the other cheek to freepers, and do 'em.

If he purchased it from another person who had no means of knowing he was a prohibited person, what liability would you attach? Many here in the gungeon have advocated opening up NICS to private sellers, but until that happens, there can be no prosecution of a person who does not know they're selling to a prohibited person.

I rarely sell any of my firearms and in the last 10 years when I did I used the following requirements:

1) I had to know the buyer personally and he had to be more than a casual acquaintance.

2) The buyer had to have a current concealed carry permit.

It would be much easier to find a buyer if I could complete the transaction at a gun store where, for a reasonable fee, the clerk would run a background check on the buyer.

I would use the NICS system if it was voluntary, but I would like to see a requirement for it to be used for private sales.

Congress can't get in between private sales between two in state individuals, but the states can (inter- vs intra- state commerce.)

I just want to make damn sure than anyone I sell a firearm to can pass a background check.

And of course, I would be more than willing to go through a background check if I bought a firearm and the private seller wanted me to.

Last time I sold to someone I didn't know (at a gun show, no less!) I took down the guy's address, checked his driver's license, and got his cell #. He did the same to me. I wish I'd been able to check the back of his license for an 'NICS approved' sticker or something.

Charged not necessarily.

Either could have indeed sold the weapon without breaking any legal or even moral obligations. Like I said a dealer could easily be duped by a straw purchase or a face to face purchase could be shown a valid license and told the buyer has no criminal history, again no crime here on the seller's part.

It would be difficult to mandate NICS check for all face to face purchases because it goes down a commerce path and opens the doors to some ugly things I don't think most folks want. Think unintended consequences. What I think should happen though is providing for optional use of the NICS database or NICS light or something to that effect that protects privacy but still gives a seller the yay or nay on the buyer. Make it internet based and low cost. 5 bucks or something.

If somebody sells a gun and it is used in a crime and they didn't use the NICS system, let the civil courts work it out as a possible negligence case or whatever. Not a criminal case.

The one sure to try to exploit a tragedy.

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I understand ....

If a dealer or individual transferred the weapon to him with knowledge of his criminal background they should be prosecuted.

I am 100% pro gun and I would go after either of the above legally, but again only if they are shown to have broken the law, not simply for being the transferring entity.

They'll have to determine the origin of the firearm. That may or may not be possible or even something they really spend much time worrying about. If they think they can use the gun to uncover conspirators they will be more aggressive in seeking it's source.

He's an 88'r who had plenty of time to prepare for this. His kind has access to firearms on the black market. The rest of them will be scurrying like roaches to get away from him now that he's crossed the line.

I'm more interested in why he chose to act when he did. These kinds of whack jobs merit a bit of study.

I am sure that sites like Stormfront and WAR pages get looked at by LE, but they can't really do anything until specific targets are named or acts are discussed. It is a fine line between LE's ability to monitor potential problems, to the government spying on citizens or groups with whom the government has a difference of opinion.

If the gun was purchased from a dealer the dealer must face the music. I must be investigated before jumping to conclusions though.

Have I heard there is less checking that way?

no - there is no specific gun show loophole really - it's just a misleading name. Dealers still have to do the same checks they always do. Private sales in or out of gun shows do not (in most states at least).

Gun shows are usually a collection of FFL's/dealers. All FFL's/Dealers must do NICS checks.

Individuals can sell face to face in most states without a background check if the person they are selling to is a valid state resident and indicates they have nothing barring them from the sale. I personally would like the option as an individual to run an NICS check but that is not an option at this point.

Any individual selling large numbers of firearms will likely be visited by the BATFE since they will likely be considered dealing without a license unless they can prove they are simply liquidating their collection etc.

The BATFE / Law enforcement has had a pretty good presence at most gun shows I have been to.

of the Neo-Nazi movement. I would guess he got it from one of his cronies/allies who has a clean record, he bought it from someone in org-crime ex: motorcycle gang, he bought it off some dude who stole it, or he bought it in a private sale (illegally). Shitloads of ways to buy it, most don't involve an FFL dealer. If he was an active neo-nazi he would have had no problemo getting his hands on a fire arm through his network.

I'm assuming you want to do something that is more than just a symbolic gesture.

Let's assume we wind up finding out that he got the gun from a fellow biker and gang member. What law would you propose that would impact that kind of illegal trafficking and not make getting a 12 ga. Browning BPS Pheasant gun a major challenge for a hunter in downstate Illinois?

Except in this case, such as under prohibition, by reducing the supply of something you increase the potential black market.

You're never going to eliminate guns.

And I'm also not talking about prohibition, just stricter laws.

You're talking about restricting the legal purchase of something to prevent it's illegal use. If we took that approach across the board, we'd have to pass a background check and cavity search before buying cough medicine to make sure we weren't going to make meth with it.

was already barred from possessing a weapon due to a prior felony conviction. His total disregard for the law is quite the opposite of the way most Americans live their lives. Imposing some kind of collective punishment on lawful citizens for the actions of a criminal minority is a good way to create an unwanted political outcome.

I am for strict laws keeping guns from felons, however someone just running off at the mouth about gun control after every shooting gets tiring.

What law specifically would prevent this tragedy.

The funny thing is you are proposing new gun control when we don't even know how he got the firearm.

It is possible:
he bought the rifle prior to 1968 and it was never registered.
When he went to prison he lied and said he had no firearms.
He has had the rifle in his garage ever since.

.. nitwit

reducing the the number of "guns on the street"? Also do you mean all guns or just ones with bling?

edit for spelling.

I regret responding to the OP then :)

As an aside... FWIW - We don't even know what kind of gun he used, no indication it was an "assault weapon". I wouldn't be surprised to hear it was a K98 or other mauser due to the small number of shots fired by both parties (5 in total reported, I'm assuming the Sec Gds were armed with Glock 17s or equivalent). Considering the bored states of unawareness that guards tend to assume - this is a low rate of fire for the perp (no knock on the guards, that duty is fucking boring and 99.99% of the time absolutely nothing interesting happens).

Horrible situation. Hope it does not infringe on our constitutional rights too much (1st, 2nd and 4th in particular) and I wish to hell the fascist prick had died instead of the guard.

Pretty simple question.

Hasn't exactly worked out that way, has it? Cannabis is easier to purchase in most cities than legal prescription foot powder.

We understand that you would like to acheive "less guns on the street." What laws (constitutional or otherwise) do you propose to accomplish this?

I know that not every FFL dealer is a saint, but I don't think that they would necessarily jeopardize their business by knowingly selling to a prohibited person. He would most likely have gone underground to get a weapon rather than risk his plan.

concerning the army recruit that was shot outside the recruiting station. That was domestic terrorism.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, the dealer (if that's where it was purchased from) should be prosecuted. I think it is a stretch calling him a domestic terrorist though. He is a demented racist, nothing more, nothing less.

Not necessarily something recently purchased, as the loser who committed the murder was 88 years old and was born in 1920.

He kills some poor guy just trying to make a living, and for what? It's just straight up murder. Those guys who live in their world of hate and extremism never cease to amaze me. It's a free country, and I'm proud of that, but this dirt bag was hiding behind our freedoms to wage his own private war against the rest of us. At least he'll get the benefit of a fair trial before his freedom is taken, which is far more than he would be willing to grant you or me.

I have been looking for a citation of the weapon used. Do you have a link?

NRA says we should enforce gun laws. Who sold a gun to a ex-felon alcoholic probably mentally ill person. Wouldn't that person have criminal liability as well as ethical responsibility. All Von Brunn need to do was go to a gun show. I wonder if Randy Weaver and Bo Gritts are still on the gun show circuit. I wonder if their are any hookups there.

There's no one to punish here, except him. Where he got it is not the issue.

.. we can't tell yet if any law was broken.

If a private seller sold it to him and didn't know or have reason to believe that he was a prohibited person, no law has been broken.

If he had the gun before his 1981 incarceration, then obviously the original sale was probably legal, but his retention of the gun after becoming a felon was not legal (therefore _he_ is the transgressor, not the person who sold it to him years ago.)

If he bought it from a motorcycle gang, corner drug dealer, or another illegal channel, then it's damned unlikely we'll ever see the person who sold it to him in jail.

However, if someone sold it to him knowing he was a felon, or someone bought it _for_ him (an illegal straw purchase), or a crooked FFL sold it to him sans NICS check, then yes, someone will likely go to jail.

fyi, there is no 'gun show loophole' as you alluded to- all* sales from an FFL require an NICS check, regardless of venue. More properly, there's a 'intra-state private sale' "loophole" (enclosed in quotes, because it's not the fed's problem to fix- they can't meddle in intra-state sales, as it's outside their constitutional purview to do so.)

* technically an FFL could sell a personal gun from his own collection without an NICS check, but all the FFLs that I know refuse to do business that way and will 'sell it to themselves' so that it's on the books, then perform an NICS check on a buyer to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

Please learn about EXISTING gun laws before PROPOSING new ones.

There are numerous places he could have got the gun from and 99% of the time it isn't a gunshow.

1)He could have had the rifle before he became a felon and simply lied to police about it (sometimes felons do that)
2)He could have bought one of the 80-120 million illegal/street/unregistered firearms in the US
3)He could have lied to private individual and about it OUTSIDE a gunshow (private individuals have no access to criminal background check NICS)

Laws for sales inside a gunshows are EXACTLY the same as laws for sales outside gunshows.
Actually federal law makes no mention of gunshows at all.
Federal law applies to all sales regardless of location.

But I just got to thinking if I wanted to go buy an illegal gun or an illegal machine gun/converted or otherwise, I have no idea where I would get one and I have been around shooting and the shooting community for quite some time.

The only reason I say this is that I would best most law abiding folks/shooters would feel similarly and that it represents one difference between the criminal element and the law abiding one.

However, if you were to hang around with the Armenian mob, something tells me a real AK could be found for you.

I'm with you cslinger59, I'm a "gun nut" and have lots of "gun nut" friends and none of us know shit about that stuff. Several (machinists/mechanics) etc. could easily do it, but don't. Full auto seems to appeal mainly to mall-ninjas/wannabes on the pro-RKBA side and the gun grubbers on the other. The rest of us know we couldn't afford to shoot them *grumble* or can get fully auto stuff legally.

and frankly it is a great way to turn money into noise fast.

The older I get, the more I shoot, the more joy I get in a quality bolt action .22 rifle. I have my share of EBR's and scary booga booga guns but all things being equal a nice sunny day at the range with a good bolty .22 just does it for me.

A very old .22lr rifle, like the one used by Von Brunn, might fall into that category.
Perhaps that was the reason he choose such an antiquated weapon... he already (legally) owned it.

The gun he used was made between 1906 and the late 1920's, so it was a felony for him to possess it.

Caliber has no bearing on the legality, FWIW; any pre-1898 breechloader (assuming non-automatic and meeting all NFA Title 1 requirements) is legal, and any post-1898 breechloader is not, whether or not it is a .22.