Safe haven for criminal activity, Gun Shows

The ATF reports that 25 to 50% of gun dealers at gun shows are unlicensed.(Michael Bouchard, Asst Director BATF;Hearings before the House Subcommitee on Crime and Terrorism, 109th Congress)

A study by Dr. Wintemute from the University of California-Davis found the "25 to 50%" quoted above may be even higher, closer to 70%.(Injury Prevention. 2007 p.150)

In 2005 undercover ATF officers learned that an unlicensed dealer, Ghassan Haddad was supplying neo-Nazis with machine guns at Seattle area gun shows.(Seattle Post Intelligencer, Oct. 19th 2005)

In New Orleans ATF agents identified the source for guns that gangs use came from gun shows.(BATF, Investigating Gun Shows, p. 29)

From 1996 to 1998 approximately 26,000 illegal firearms were traded at gun shows. At just 195 gun shows between 2005 and 2006 121 arrests were made and 5,345 guns were seized.(www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/followthegun_internet.pdf) (www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0707/final.pdf)

http://www.csgv.org/atf/cf/%7B79FD0842-518D-42AC-8228-AE59B7990689%7D/Gun%20Show%20Loophole%20Memo.pdf

http://www.csgv.org/atf/cf/%7B23E96A35-4C75-41EE-BDDD-4BD3A3B59010%7D/CSGV%202007%20Gun%20Show%201%20Percent%20Memo.pdf

http://www.csgv.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=pmL5JnO7KzE&b=3509271&ct=4538221

On April 20, 1999, in the deadliest high school shooting in US history, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold procured two shotguns, an assault rifle, and a TEC-9 assault pistol and shot 26 students in Littleton, Colo., killing 13 before killing themselves. An ATF investigation found that all four weapons had been purchased from private sellers at gun shows.

On Sept. 10, 2001, just one day before the devastating attacks against the United States, Ali Boumelhem was convicted in Michigan on a variety of weapons violations plus conspiracy to ship weapons to the terrorist organization Hezbollah. He and his brother Mohamed had purchased an arsenal weapons from Michigan gun shows without undergoing background checks.

In Texas, Muhammad Asrar was arrested in an investigation of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. He pleaded guilty to immigration violations and illegal possession of ammunition. The Pakistani store owner said he had bought handguns, rifles, and a submachine gun at gun shows since 1994.

Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh used Texas gun shows to make large gun purchases. According to an ATF arrest warrant, Koresh and his cult made "regular purchases of weapons and ammunition flea markets and gun shows." Authorities estimated that Koresh had at least 200 automatic and semi-automatic assault rifles stockpiled, plus thousands of rounds of ammunition.

Timothy McVeigh, who bombed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995 was a "private seller" at gun shows. He along with accomplice Michael Fortier, admitted to stealing $60,000 worth of shotguns, rifles, and handguns from an Arkansas gun collector's ranch and then reselling the stolen weapons at gun shows.


There's your stats, you asked for them, now deal with them.

perceived problem? Please feel free to elaborate. Thanks.
:-)

I have to solve it? OK, close the gun show loophole. If that can't be done stop all gun shows, the majority of people agree, they are hate-filled breeding ground.

includes further limiting the rights of around half of us, but no you don't have to solve it; it's just that there's a little expectation that someone who complains about the status quo ought to in good faith offer an alternative.

Have you ever been to a gun show? I wonder how you "know" they are a 'hate filled breeding ground' (for what you didn't bother to say)

I am against the AWB and yes I've been to many gun shows. What's my agenda? Re-read my post, I did offer a solution.

Private sales, person to person, do not require a background check anywhere as long as they're done face to face. And selling for the purposes of profit without a Federal Firearms License is worth 10 years in prison.

selling guns at gun shows without a license? Come on man, that's an old argument I've already proven. People are selling guns at gun shows without a license, that's the loophole.

their own merchandise any where they want. That is not a loophole. Just repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true.

You need NO LICENSE to sell a gun. Period. Ever. The only time you need a license is if you're acting as a dealer, meaning selling guns as a business. But gun shows are not a magical rule free zone--somebody could just as easily conduct a private sale in their home, or a parking lot, or the middle of a cornfield.

"Come on man, that's an old argument I've already proven."


You haven't "proven" a single thing. Through twisting definitions of words and reality, Helmke and others have tried for over a decade to invent the concept of a loophole. They haven't been able to so I seriously doubt you'll do it overnight.

You need to wake up.

pay for a booth and sell firearms?

MichaelHarris (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-10-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. because I report it
I have to solve it? OK, close the gun show loophole. If that can't be done stop all gun shows, the majority of people agree, they are hate-filled breeding ground.



You left out "full of knuckle-dragging gun-worshippers with tiny penises and no teeth".

Stopping private sales from happening at gunshows isn't going to solve a damn thing, since the attendes could simply go across the street, off the property, and make their sales off the gunshow's grounds........that would nullify any "gunshow loophole" bill that you passed. You do realize that people are not required to sell their private guns in a building that is, for a short period of time, being called a "gunshow", right? Private Sellers can sell anywhere they damn well please; all you'd be addressing is to say they can't sell inside a certain building at a certain time. Then you'd be back a year later wanting to have more regulation after you realized you solved nothing.

But mainly: You said "if that can't be done, stop all gun shows". Exactly how in the hell do you think you could possibly stop all gun shows if you failed at passing legislation to close a loophole that you have not only mislabeled, but misunderstand? It stands to reason that if you can't do one, then you certainly couldn't do the other.

At the WAC shows in Washington (which made your list), open display of material on how to convert a weapon, or nazi paraphanalia is forbidden, unless it's some sort of war trophy. Any actual racist material is grounds for being shown the door.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fuo.htm

Department of Justice Firearm Use by Offenders

Source of firearm
-------------------
Retail Store 8.3%
Pawnshop 3.8%
Flea market 1.0%
Gun show 0.7%
Friend/Family 39.6%
Street/illegal 39.2%

0.7% per the gun nuts in the DOJ.

Not even 1 in 100 crimes involved a firearm from a gunshow.

There are an approximately 80 to 100 million street, illegal, or unregistered firearms in the US

Ask yourself this question, why would a felon wait weeks maybe months for the next gunshow when they can likely buy an street/illegal gun without leaving the street they live on quicker and cheaper?

Oh yeah that's right, 99 out of a 100 don't.

believe inmates or the BATF? Heck man I'll go with the inmates all day. :eyes:

Really you are delusional.

They were willing to admit all kinds of information (type of firearm, use of firearm, method of crime, etc) because it was an anonymous survey but they all decided (240,000 of them) to lie and say they got guns from their friends and family members just so they could protect some gun show operators.

Yup that makes tons of sense. You got me.

do you?

well done, son...well done.

:D
:toast:

you know how honest felons are? Please share that info with us.

just silly little pricks. How on earth do we survive?

I mean, since Jimmy Olsen here says it's true, then it must be!

:rofl:

.. who were desperate to prop up their importance in the wake of falling gun crime, and a failing AWB.

Yah, just cause an ATF agent said it, it _must_ be true.

However now the supply of street/illegal/unregistered untraceable firearms number 80 million or more.

Police pull maybe 1%-2% but like you said robberies are enough to keep the number stable.

Street firearms are often available at less than retail.

If you needed a gun to rob a 7-11 would you want a new in the box firearm w/ lifetime warranty, owners manual, trigger lock, and carrying case for $500 or some used "piece" you can get from someone who knows someone for $200 that you can either toss or get someone to buy it back for $100?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Of ALL the things to lie about they would choose to implicate family and friends? Sure.

Some big conspiracy among ALL 240,000 inmates surveyed. Those stupid DOJ they got played.

Also despite the alarming headlines the quotes from FBI report in the OP don't say that felons purchasing firearms from gunshows is either widespread or a problem.

The OP uses terms like "unlicensed seller" making it seem like a crime. In most states you could get a table at a gunshow and sell your private firearms lawfully and that would make you an "unlicensed seller". It doesn't mean you are selling guns to felons. It doesn't mean you are violating the law. It simply means that you don't have an FFL.

Unlicensed does not mean unlawful.

put illegal weapons in the hands of criminals. Any thoughts?

Ten years ago this spring, two teenagers in Colorado gunned down fellow students and teachers in a killing spree that left 15 dead, 24 injured, and a nation horrified that such carnage could unfold at an American high school. In the decade since, there have been a million gun casualties in the United States. Guns have killed 300,000 and maimed another 700,000 in the past decade - a million victims since Columbine. Had we done more 10 years ago, how many of those million might we have saved? Ten years from now, do we want to be asking ourselves the same question? J. Joseph Curran Jr. former AG of Maryland http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.guns03jun03,0,3226422.story

On April 20, 1999, in the deadliest high school shooting in US history, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold procured two shotguns, an assault rifle, and a TEC-9 assault pistol and shot 26 students in Littleton, Colo., killing 13 before killing themselves. An ATF investigation found that all four weapons had been purchased from private sellers at gun shows.

A little bit of truthful misinformatoin there, eh?

They were both underage, 18yr old Robyn Anderson aquired the weapons via a straw purchase. The "Gunshow Loophole" had NOTHING to do with this as the 18yr old purchaser would have passed an NICS check from a Licensed Dealer. The TEC9 pistol was supplied to Harris and Kleibold by Mark Manes and Philip Duran in a separate transaction (private sale). At BEST, making the sale between private citizens illegal (and assuming Harris and Klebold were law abiding citizens) would have limited them to having only 3 guns.

come from, where where they purchased?

They were made and wholesaled from somewhere...

But After several owners, the girl purchased them from what I can imagine is a gun show. I do not have a reference so I will have to concede to your "gunshow" reference. If she did infact purchase them from a gun show, whether it was a private sale is irrelevent because:
A) She was starw buying them. A felony.
B) She was old enough to buy them through an FFL with NICS.
My point is: "Gunshow Loophole" Legislation COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED HER FROM OBTAINING THOSE WEAPONS.

The TEC9 was purchased privately from Mark Manes and Philip Duran, older Columbine graduates and friends of Harris and Klebold. There are even videos showing them all of them shooting the sawed off shotguns "practicing" and joking around. Gunshow Loophole Legislation in all likliness would not have stopped this sale either.

gunshow loophole, gunshow loophole, gunshow loophole, that is all you are going to hear. He won't respond to the facts.

They got Robyn Anderson to legally purchase the weapons in her name. Whe committed a felony in making a straw purchase but was not prosecuted becuase she cooperated in the investigation. She could have made those purchase anywhere, being at a gun show makes absolutely no difference.

Can an 18 y/o buy a TEC-9 assault pistol?

I explaned it all there. I did my homework and if you were really a journalist, you could honestly do yours also. I am not going to post it all again.

buy a handgun at a gun show for those two guys? You didn't answer that.

and a rifle at a gun show. Come on, you aare literate aren't you?

Why is that? Could it be because there was no "gun show loophole" used to purchase these weapons?

to spell "are", you?

Got nothing to do with being literate or not. Must be tough to be you, perfect as you are. I saw the typo, just didn't feel like going back and fixing it. Good of you to notice though.

so bad except you did it in a post questioning my literacy. That had to hurt.

I was lazy.

"From 1996 to 1998 approximately 26,000 illegal firearms were traded at gun shows. At just 195 gun shows between 2005 and 2006 121 arrests were made and 5,345 guns were seized."

I'm glad they are checking up on people selling at gun shows, but I'd expect a much larger number of arrests if so many are breaking the law at these events.

Smells fishy.

but the guns he sells are Civil War era weapons.

great sellers at gun shows but we have to admit someday there is a problem. I never understood why gun owners don't speak out against loopholes that only harm their hobby.

I do not consider self defense and exercising my Constitutional Rights to be a 'hobby' although for those who do, it is perfectly legitimate. It's a diversity thing. ;-)
\

with Civil War era weapons? If you noticed I used "hobby" in a reply to a post about a person who's father sells Civil War era weapons. Comprehension in reading is a wonderful thing.

Only a handful do.

... is to first, require NICS checks for every sale (closing the "loophole") then refuse to open the NICS system to private individuals.

After all, you can always still sell or transfer it through a Class 001 FFL, right?

It's a low key way to strangle private sales.

I know this is long, but follow along - it shows the kind of person we are dealing with.




Note: emphasis mine

This is forced teaming at its finest. Another DUer pegged it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=118616&mesg_id=118621



Or, from another source:

http://ar.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070226103236AAa422K







And there's the typecasting. From the last cite:

:D

If you have the deep pockets to purchase, and feed it!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=130486405

Or if you would rather build it yourself, http://www.gatlingguns.net/

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

Remember, these are the guys who said that a shoelace is a machinegun

http://www.mp5.net/info/ATF_Ruling_2004-09-30_String_Trick.pdf

for non FFL dealers. Only FFL dealers are required to run NICS checks. A private citizen isn't a "dealer" so how can it be called a "loophole"???

are unlicensed private citizens selling guns at gun shows? You're not really going to try that argument are you?

The internet, parking lots, basements, gun shows... anywhere. People are simply exchanging private goods for cash.
A private citizen may sell private property to another private citizen anywhere. No different than selling a car, pocketknife, or computer.
People go to gunshows (usually hosted by a large group of FFL Dealers) to buy guns.
People that want to sell guns, know this and go there to have a better chance of selling a gun.

a) People can sell guns anywhere
b) It's never unlawful to sell a gun otherwise
c) Under no set of rules in any location has a person been federally required to perform a background check (NICS) like a licensed dealer.
CONCLUSION: It is not a Loophole and certainly not limited to Gunshows... therefore there can never be a "GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE"

"are unlicensed private citizens selling guns at gun shows?"
There is no such thing as a "licensed private citizen". Having an FFL makes you a 'dealer'.
You're either a "Dealer" or a "Private Citizen" - no grey areas and rules for each category are well defined.
The very first statement in your OP is blatant misinformation because of this. No such thing as an "Unlicensed Dealer".

unlicensed people selling guns at gun shows? Seriously don't be stupid, you know that's the loophole.

Don't be dense. It has been explained to you time an time again. If an individual sells one gun at a gun show, are they then DEALERS?

a license? The ATF reports that 25 to 50% of gun dealers at gun shows are unlicensed.(Michael Bouchard, Asst Director BATF;Hearings before the House Subcommitee on Crime and Terrorism, 109th Congress)

If you sell one gun at a gun show are you a dealer? NO, you are a private seller. The ATF will tell you that themselves. If you are trying to make a living selling guns without a license, you are then an unlicensed dealer. Which, in your investigation, are which?

Can you imagine the dictionary Helmke and his ilk would come up with?

Are you going to rail about the Newspaper Loophole?

Of course not, because it's not a loophole. Nor is selling a gun at a gunshow, between private parties. Something I have also done.

can sell a gun in their home
from their car
at the park
on the internet
via classified ad
on craigslist

if anything there is a "person to person private property loophole".

To call it a "gunshow loophole" is disingenuous.

So you would prohibit person to person sales at a gunshow but still keep them legal outside a gunshow (aka the other 99.999999999% of the country).

That works.

person pay for a booth at a gun show and sell firearms without a FFL?

Just like they can sell a personally owned firearm ANYWHERE.

Dealer = FFL licensed = must conduct NICS for ALL firearms sales.
Private Individual = not FFL licensed = unable and not required (in most states) to conduct an NICS for ANY firearm sale.

Used or new. At gun show or not at gun show. The law is exact the same inside a gun show as it is outside.
There is no "gun show loophole".

Of course "UNLICENSED DEALERS & GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE" sounds a lot scarier than "private citizens selling firearms at a show following the EXACT SAME RULES they do every other day of the year when not at a gun show".

It got you hyped up didn't it?

So if you are you really advocating no private sales inside a gun show but still allowing private sales outside a gun show?
Do you honestly think that will do anything?
If not you suddenly must realize what VPC and Brady Bunch REALLY want is not some limit on gun shows but rather an abolishment of ALL PRIVATE sales and you have been helping them with your half truths.

Here's the report on that hearing:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house/pdf/109hrg/26053.pdf

Could you point out where Mr. Bouchard says what you've quoted him as saying? Thanks.

I have seen that 25 to 50 % figure before, although in reference to vendors, not "gun dealers", and attributed to the joint report from the Treasury and Justice Departments, "“Gun Shows: Brady Checks and Crime Gun Traces.”

From that report, at http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/gun_show.pdf :

the sources, it's in there.

pipoman apparently dug further into your links for concrete info than you care to. If all you can do is make up drivel on the fly, I hear the Enquirer is hiring.

you guys are funny, hate the message, attack the messenger. You got anything real?

You fail early in the game, then add to that with hahahaha posts and expect any semblance of respect in this forum. Tantrums and childish BS will not get you very far.

the guy attacking me and my profession, you're a vessel of respect there chief.

It's plagiarism at best, but hey, don't let that stop you.

You cited "Michael Bouchard, Asst Director BATF;Hearings before the House Subcommitee on Crime and Terrorism, 109th Congress)".

I looked through the Subcommittee's report, at the link I provided, and didn't see where Mr. Bouchard said anything like what you had quoted.

Could you direct me to the page number, please? Thanks.

and good on 'ya. This anti freedom .org is just like the rest, the truth doesn't support their weak position so they resort to making shit up then spoon feeding it to people who have no brain or research ability of their own...it is the tactic of every one of these lying sack of shit .orgs.

between a source and a fictitious paraphrase, no?

Now I see why you're a photojournalist.. words matter, and are harder to write than taking a picture.

resorting to personal attacks now, read through this entire thread and look how many in the gun forum have resorted to personal attacks, childish lot you guys are. Continue to cook your facts and play word games, it's really all you have left. Every day we see more and more gun violence and you play word games, sad really.

"Both FFLs and nonlicensees sell firearms at these shows. FFLs make up 50 to 75 percent of the vendors at most gun shows. The majority of vendors who attend shows sell firearms and associated accessories and other paraphernalia. Examples of accessories and paraphernalia include holsters, tactical gear, knives, ammunition, clothing, food, military artifacts, books, and other literature. Some of the vendors offer accessories and paraphernalia only and do not sell firearms."

THAT is the quote that was misrepresented.

The ATF reports that 25 to 50% of gun dealers at gun shows are unlicensed.(Michael Bouchard, Asst Director BATF;Hearings before the House Subcommitee on Crime and Terrorism, 109th Congress)

I find that completely unbelievable to the point of absurdity. If this were true, at all, as written by the anti-freedom site linked to, 25% to 50% of dealers would be leaving the gun show in handcuffs...There are actually definitions assigned the words in the quote above...believe it or not... Those definitions make the statement as written a complete lie. If, for instance, the quote said, "The ATF reports that 25 to 50% of dealers at gun shows are unlicensed. I would completely go along with that...no argument what with the jerky tables, the leather goods tables, the military relics, the popcorn and candied nuts tables, the gun cabinet and case sales, the knife dealers...you get the idea.

If you actually believe this complete and total horseshit, the obvious question is, "What the fuck are you doing writing a report Mr. BATFE agent, where are all of the criminals?" An "unlicensed gun dealer" is a very specific animal and is committing felonies. The BATFE is (supposedly, I don't believe it until I see it linked on some believable source) saying that 25% to 50% are committing blatant felonies...bullshit, where are the arrests? Jesus man you have done drank the koolaid of these types judging by your past few posts.




BTW when you quit siting liars and linking to lying sites instead begin doing your own research, you may actually become a journalist one day...till then you are only a parrot.

My post #31.

Granted, it doesn't exactly support that claim....

funny post, the ATF lies

claim made in your biased link to an apparent site willing to lie to get donations from terrified toddlers too lazy to check their source for accuracy.


Just to summarize...It is you and or your site which is lying.

http://www.kintera.org/atf/cf/%7B23E96A35-4C75-41EE-BDDD-4BD3A3B59010%7D/Virginia%20Gun%20Show%20Data%20Paper.pdf

Dude I can do this all night, the guy exists, he is a Field Director at ATF and he did this report. How long do you want to play this?

Is that all you have, another link to some PDF?

I can go all night:

"Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 firearms sold by federally licensed dealers, also known as FFLs, at Richmond gun shows were recovered in connection with criminal activity, including homicides. Of this total, more than 300 were recovered in the Richmond area alone." http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju26053.000/hju26053_0f.htm

Gov docs OK? Or should we just rely on NRA documents. I'm not going to do it all for you, search using your browser on Michael Bourchard and read his testimony, it's all these. Hopefully the transcriptionist isn't lying also. You guys sure keep me entertained.

MichaelHarris (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-10-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. sure man
I can go all night:

"Between 2002 and 2005, more than 400 firearms sold by federally licensed dealers, also known as FFLs, at Richmond gun shows were recovered in connection with criminal activity, including homicides. Of this total, more than 300 were recovered in the Richmond area alone." http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju26053...

Gov docs OK? Or should we just rely on NRA documents. I'm not going to do it all for you, search using your browser on Michael Bourchard and read his testimony, it's all these. Hopefully the transcriptionist isn't lying also. You guys sure keep me entertained.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean, they sold at least 300 firearms that wound up being used in crime.
Eureka, I think you've stumbled onto something......that emphasises your foolishness in starting this thread in the first place.





clue: Gotta watch what you copy/paste around here,
we actually read and comprehend whereas <i>some</i> don't.
(that would be you)



edit; forgot to separate

(in this case nonexistent) sites. Now how about the exact quote supporting your fiction? Oh, wait a minute...


Both FFLs and nonlicensees sell firearms at these shows. FFLs make up 50 to 75 percent of the vendors at most gun shows. The majority of vendors who attend shows sell firearms and associated accessories and other paraphernalia. Examples of accessories and paraphernalia include holsters, tactical gear, knives, ammunition, clothing, food, military artifacts, books, and other literature. Some of the vendors offer accessories and paraphernalia only and do not sell firearms.

does not mean

The ATF reports that 25 to 50% of gun dealers at gun shows are unlicensed.

surely you can wrap your mind around this, if not, no worries...virtually everyone else reading this exchange can.

gov docs OK? http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju26053.000/hju26053_0f.htm do your own search, read his testimony.

I quoted it in the post you just responded to. You know the post, the one that proves you and your source are wrong and/or liars.

So you expect us to believe that criminals are flocking to these shows with that many LEO's around?

David

Man, I really love Adobe!

Anyway, the statement you are so fond of quoting does NOT exist in his testimony. BTW, did you realize that the testimony he was giving concerned some incidents at a gun show where the BATFE went overboard in their zeal to find some criminal gun sellers? Read the other testimony.

I find that completely unbelievable to the point of absurdity. If this were true, at all, as written by the anti-freedom site linked to, 25% to 50% of dealers would be leaving the gun show in handcuffs.

I agree. If there was this level of massive law violation happening at gun shows the BATFE would be having a field-day at them.

If this data is true, where are the arrests?

One of the many untrue or factually incorrect posts repeated by gun enthusiasts.

Regarding the numerous statements by gun enthusiasts in this thread and others about the firearms purchased at the gun show and used by the Columbine murderers.
Robyn Anderson neither made a straw purchase nor did she make any kind of deal to avoid prosecution (for not committing a crime). To make a straw purchase you have to lie to an FFL and/or on the form 4473.
She dealt with a private party, no straw purchase.
Get your facts straight.

From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold

Because Harris and Klebold were both underage at the time, Robyn Anderson, an 18-year-old Columbine student and old friend of Klebold's, made a straw purchase of two shotguns and Hi-Point 995 Carbine for the pair.<14> Anderson was not charged for her part in the straw purchase in exchange for her cooperation with the investigation that followed the shootings.

From Rocky mountain news.com
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0427scho0.shtml

Kebold's prom date, identified as 18-year-old Robyn K. Anderson, was questioned by investigators Monday and later released, Jefferson County Sheriff John Stone said.

Investigators classified her as a witness, not a suspect.

Dylan Klebold's prom date bought two of the weapons used in last week's assault on Columbine High School at a Denver-area gun show, authorities said Monday

From encyclopedia.com
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8538565.html

LITTLETON, Colo. -- The young woman who accompanied Dylan Klebold to the senior prom purchased at least two of the four weapons used in the April 20 massacre at Columbine High School, police said yesterday.

Robyn Anderson, 18, was interviewed by police and released yesterday without being charged. Police said Anderson -- whom they identified as a witness and not as a suspect -- was not at school on the day of the shooting. But they believe a semiautomatic pistol and a rifle used in the rampage were purchased by Anderson from


WHERE DID THEY GET THEIR WEAPONS FROM IF NOT ROBYN ANDERSON?

Don't believe the crap posted as fact by gun enthusiasts.
One of the many untrue or factually incorrect posts repeated by gun enthusiasts.

Regarding the numerous statements by gun enthusiasts in this thread and others about the firearms purchased at the gun show and used by the Columbine murderers.
Robyn Anderson neither made a straw purchase nor did she make any kind of deal to avoid prosecution (for not committing a crime). To make a straw purchase you have to lie to an FFL and/or on the form 4473.
She dealt with a private party, no straw purchase.
Get your facts straight.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO KNOW WHAT A STRAW PURCHASE IS.

WIKIPEDIA; Robyn Anderson, an 18-year-old Columbine student and old friend of Klebold's, made a straw purchase.
Not true, factually incorrect.
ROCKYMOUNTAINNEWS;Investigators classified her as a witness, not a suspect.True
ECYCLOPEDIA; Robyn Anderson, 18, was interviewed by police and released yesterday without being charged. Police said Anderson -whom they identified as a witness and not as a suspect... True.
Not even a suspect!

Don't trust Wikipedia, they're sourced frequently by people who are ignorant.
She dealt with a private party not an FFL, there is no straw purchase unless the party is dealing with an FFL.


You can't believe the posts on this board .

At least three posts #66, 37 and the one I replied to, #34, in this thread alone, specifically referenced Robyn Anderson as she, Whe and SHE.

# 34 titled their post with “I little lacking on some of the actual facts..." as if the facts are as they posted.

B.S.

Each of those posts used the terms straw purchase (starw) buying and stated as fact that she (Ms Anderson)had committee a felony.

That isn’t correct.


There is a context.

In the interest of accuracy, I have pointed out that Robyn Anderson (not in any generic sense but very specifically) did not commit the Federal crime ATF calls a “straw purchase” and did not commit a felony when she bought firearms at a gun show which were used by the perpetrators of the Columbine school massacre.

Get real.

Though she bought the firearms from a private seller, she did so with the intent to hand those firearms over to minors. She admitted this intent in front of the House Judiciary Committee.

Her intent to supply minors with firearms was a felony, and you'd be a fool not to think the term "straw purchase" would not have come up in her trial.....but she ultimately was not charged in exchange for her testimony against two friends for selling the murderers a handgun.

Yes my intent was and still is, accuracy.

Her intent to hand those firearms over to minors was NOT a felony. I've seen no need to describe you or your your posts as the writings of an ignorant fool, but if the shoe fits. Your views as expressed here in this thread on this subject (whether she committed a felony) are not accurate.
There was no trial because she didn't break any law!
Do you really think that if a local state or federal prosecutor could have prosecuted her they would waive that prosecution? People everywhere were crying for blood. You think there was some testimony she could provide against "two friends for selling the murderers a handgun"? Which two friends? (certainly not Mark Manes and Philip Duran, co-workers at Blackjack Pizza Parlor) You don't have a clue.

You are now into just making shit up!



But the law applies only to guns sold by a licensed federal firearms dealer. ATF agents have determined that Anderson bought two of the three guns from a private person -- not a dealer. But they have not found who sold Anderson the third gun.(this was of course before it became known that she also was involved in the purchase of the third long gun.) http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1214col1.shtml

This was perfectly legal. Any 18-year-old can buy shotguns and rifles, as long as she doesn't have a felony record. And it's perfectly legal for that 18-year-old to give those guns to others, including minors -- in what is known as a "straw purchase" -- as long as she purchased the gun from a private citizen and not a licensed gun dealer. And since Anderson was buying from an unlicensed dealer, she didn't have to fill out any forms and no records were kept. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/12/30/guns/print.html

Anderson bought the two shotguns at the same show.
Federal law forbids gun dealers to sell shotguns or rifles to anyone younger than 18. It also forbids "straw'' sales to someone obviously acquiring guns for people ineligible to buy them.
But those prohibitions apply only to licensed firearms dealers. Anderson bought two shotguns and the carbine from three different unlicensed sellers at the show. Because all were private sales, none could be classified as "straw'' purchases made for juveniles. In fact, Klebold and Harris did not need an 18year-old's help to buy shotguns or a semiautomatic rifle from a private gun-show vendor.
Legally, they could have bought all three by themselves.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/shot0801.htm


Robyn already had turned 18, and Dylan and Eric apparently thought they needed her along. Actually, at 17, either of them could have bought the guns from an unlicensed dealer at the Tanner show. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0822fata1.shtml

Some people wrongly people apply common sense to the law but the law is not common and it often lacks any 'sense'.

The crime comes about due to lying on the 4473.

Per the FFL (question 12a)


In the important notes section on the back


Now 'common sense' would lead one to believe the Federal govt would make ANY purchase (including purchase from private party) with the intent to provide it to someone else a crime.

People might think that but they would be wrong.

Now if people think the law should be changed then lobby to change it but at the time the weapons changed hands it was not against the law.

The State of Colorado actually did change/make laws to deal with what they considered a serious shortcoming.

July 1, 2000 - Two new state laws, in direct reference to the Columbine shootings, went into effect in Colorado today. The first one now makes it a felony to buy guns for someone who can't legally purchase them and the second one states that is now a misdemeanor to give guns to juveniles without their parents permission. These two new laws are called the "Robyn Anderson bills" during the state congressional litigation process, as she was able to buy guns, three, for the killers who legally couldn't purchase them, and gave the guns to the killers without their parent's permission. http://www.columbine-angels.com/History.htm

There must regulations or laws that the loophole is legally circumventing.
The first definition I found by googling: Loophole - A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.

A loose example, Cars driven on public roads must be registered/licensed. One such loophole might be, "If the vehicle is designated as a work or farming vehicle, it may drive across the road or travel along the road a short distances to allow access to separate worksites/properties."
(I paraphrased, more or less. But laws exist that allow unregistered farming/business vehicles to access public roads to aces separate parts of one's property.)

In the case of an individual selling private guns, since there is no federal requirement for private sellers to have an FFL (and there has never been a requirement or permit of any kind) to sell firearms from a private collection... how can a "Loophole" exist. There are no federal laws limiting the sale of private guns by private persons without FFLs, so how can there be difficulties, omissions, ambiguities, or contractual agreements to "evade/escape".

You understand that you are proposing the existence of a loophole whose purpose is to circumvent NONexistant laws. That's stupid.
There is no such thing as the Gunshow Loophole. It's a word game played by fear mongers because the term "private seller" does not sound menacing enough.

At Columbine, three of the four guns used were bought at a gun show by a straw purchaser, not by the shooters directly.

hey, before you go spouting unsubstantiated drivel, why not go to ATF.gov? They have an FAQ and a nifty website we pay for. There is alot uf useful info there and they don't talk about made up things like unlicensed dealers. Try and search their site for the definition, get back to me when you find it.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

(C10) May a person obtain a dealer's license to engage in business only at gun shows?

No. A license may only be issued for a permanent premises at which the license applicant intends to do business. A person having such license may conduct business at gun shows located in the State in which the licensed premises is located and sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to other licensees at any location.

<18 U.S.C. 923(a) and (j)>


B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30>

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30>

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)>

The law requires anyone who sells guns as a business or in interstate commerce to have a license. The murkiness in the regulation is the definition of "in the business."

A good example is selling a car. If you sell your car you are not a dealer and your state does not require you to collect sales tax. Many states set a limit on how many times a person can sell his car an not pay sales taxes. The "magic" number in my state is 6. If you sell 6 cars in a year, you are a "de facto dealer" be cause the Revenue Cabinet says so and they want their 6%.

There is no similar hard and fast rule for guns and the FFL requirement. If you are in the business of selling guns you need a license. If you make an occasional sale of a personally owned gun, you don't. Does a guy who buys a gun, keeps it for a while and sells it or trades for a different or nicer one a dealer? Or is he improving his collection?

If "in fact" he is doing it in furtherance of a business he is a dealer and requires a license. The problem may be in that a jury has to determine that to be fact.

If you inherit a closet full of old guns you know nothing about and have no interest in and you peddle them in a yard sale are you a dealer? If you rent a table at a gun show instead, on the assumption there will be more potential buyers, does that make you a dealer? Can you take that closet full of guns across the state line and sell them? (Only if you sell them to a licensee, aka FFL.)

The ATF talks in terms of licensees and non-licensees for a reason. Those terms are defined. "Unlicensed dealer" is not. Now as for opening up NICs to everyone. Suppose you were wondering about that dude your daughter is dating, call NICS and see if you can sell him a gun? What about calling in your boss before you next go asking for a raise?

for more than 30 years at gun shows. It is how I add to and improve my collection. Never sold more than one or two, mainly to get funds for another purchase. Most all of my sales, and purchases were to and from other collectors. I am NOT a FFL holder, just a collector.
Does this make me a "unlicensed dealer" in your eyes? Or a simple collector who enjoys the hobby.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

I live here, so it's easy for me to speak to the 3rd one in your list (which aren't 'stats' by the way).

"Gilbert, 65, and two other white supremacists, William D. Heinrich and John P. Hegna, were arrested in Washington in February. Gilbert is accused of selling weapons, including machine guns, to an ATF informant. One of the weapons, a rifle that can be converted to a machine gun, came from Haddad, Gilbert allegedly told the informant."

He didn't make it a whole day before he was caught trying to sell that shit. He allegedly made the parts himself, which is easy to do, any middle school metal shop is fully capable of turning out such parts.

He broke MULTIPLE federal laws, and was pretty much immediately caught by the BATFE. They patrol the gun shows, you know. So do the local police. So do people like me, who will not hesitate to call in illegal activity. I am a member of WAC.

What more do you want? He broke many laws, was caught, and is in jail now.

I haven't read everything you sent because I got stuck on the first claim.



so I started to look around in the the first document (http://www.csgv.org/atf/cf/%7B79FD0842-518D-42AC-8228-AE59B7990689%7D/Gun%20Show%20Loophole%20Memo.pdf) from a organization that has a clear agenda.
They wrote:


So I notice the change of words and ask if you decided to change the word vendor to dealer. Anybody who buys a table at a gun show is a vendor. Selling a used gun may make you a gun vendor without license, but not an unlicensed gun dealer. Unlicensed gun dealers are already illegal and should be prosecuted by the ATF.

I also noticed in that same document they show a person carrying a gun with a for sale sign on it with the caption, "The Gun Show Loophole allows unlicensed vendors to sell firearms without conducting background checks."

Do you think this organization considered people who walk in and carry a gun around with a for sale a vendor? Because if they do, then that is disingenuous and manipulative. By analogy, people who drive to car shows with for sale signs on their cars are not car dealers.

I ask these questions because I find the very first things I read in your post to be manipulative and dishonest. Can you shed any light on these items that would help me see them in a different light?

The bottom line is, Michael, that private individuals in the United States can sell firearms to anyone without a license and without performing a background check on the individual buying the firearm, and this is true anywhere, at any time, including gun shows.

This is not a loophole. To call it a loophole is to imply that something nefarious is being done to circumvent the law. This is not the case as the law is specifically set up to allow individuals to sell firearms without a license and without performing background checks on buyers.

Do unqualified people, such as criminals, buy firearms at gun shows? Undoubtedly some few do. But you can also check out your local newspaper's classified ads and buy one there, too, at any time. You can also use the internet, with sites like www.gunbroker.com, to find private individuals selling firearms in your state to buy from. All of these constitute private sales and none of them require a background check.

EVEN IF you outlawed all private sales at gun shows, you can't outlaw them anywhere else, so nothing will have changed.

What we need is a way to insure that everyone who buys a firearm, private or not, has passed a background check.

I have already proposed a way to do this:

Set up a system whereby whenever someone applies for a Drivers' License or State-Issued ID they are automatically run through the NICS, unless they choose to opt-out. If you pass NICS, your ID will have a Firearm Owner ID Number (FOID) printed on the back of your ID.

Any time anyone goes to purchase a firearm, they will have to show their FOID number. The seller will be required, by law, to record this number and keep a record of the sale for 10 years.

If at any time someone who has been issued an FOID number commits a felony, is found mentally incompetent, or is involuntarily committed to a mental institution, their state-issued ID will be revoked and the local sheriff can be sent to confiscate it and any weapons in the person's possession.

No one would dare sell a firearm to someone without an FOID because if the firearm were ever used in a crime and traced it would lead right back to the seller who would then face serious criminal penalties.