Let's Clear Up This "Gunshow Loophole" Misunderstanding

There seems to be some confusion about gunshows, so let's clear that up here. There are some questions we need to ask and address:

1) Is there a loophole in which criminals can get guns without going through a background check? Yes.

2) Is this loophole a "gunshow loophole"? No.

3) Why is calling the loophole a "gunshow loophole" misleading and showing no understanding of the problem? Because of a number of reasons:
A) A Dealer is a person who has a federal liscense to sell firearms. In order to sell those firearms, the Dealer must have a person fill out a form and pass an instant background
check.
B) A Dealer is required to have a person fill out this form and pass this instant background check regadless of whether they are selling their inventory in their "gun store" or in a
building that is currently being used as a "gunshow". In other words, the building or place doesn't change the laws. If the Dealer sells a gun without having the form filled
out or an instant background check passed, then they are breaking a federal law.
C) A Private Seller is a person who is selling their personal firearms, much like a person would sell any of their personal belongings.
D) A Private Seller is not required to have a form filled out or have a buyer pass an instant background check specifically because they are selling their personal belongings; again
just like selling any of their other personal belongings.
E) A Private Seller is not required to attend a gathering that is being called a "gunshow" just so they can sell their personal belongings (firearms). A Private Seller can, in
fact, sell their private belongings (firarms) anywhere they can meet up.

4) So what does the answer to #3 mean? It means that creating a law that says "background checks must be performed at "gunshows" would accomplish nothing because Dealers already have to perform
background checks at "gunshows" or they are breaking the law. It also means that Private Sellers can just leave the "gunshow", walk off the property, and officially make their sale.

5) Are there other ways that Private Sellers can get together and discuss their wares besides "gunshows"? Yes. There are many websites dedicated to this purpose, as well as newspaper sections.

6) What's the difference between a Private Seller and a Trafficker? A gun trafficker is some who sells firearms without a federal license. A Private Seller becomes a trafficker if they sell "x"
amount of their private firearms at once or with in a certain time frame.

7) So if calling the loophole a "gunshow" loophole is incorrect, what name would more accurately describe the problem? "Private Sales Loophole".

8) How can you close this loophole? There is only one way to stop it, and that way is National Gun Registration combined with a law that says all firearm sales must have a background check. Since the
guns would be registered to those who bought them, it would be impossible to sell that gun without a background check, and not have a high probibility that it would be traced back to you if it were
to be used in a crime.

9) Is National Gun Registration possible? No chance in hell is it possible in the United States. Congress won't even touch another "assault weapon" ban, let alone gun registration.

10) So what does this mean about this loophole? It means it's not going anyway where, so just shut up and live with it.

private seller purchase a booth at a gun show and sell guns?

A private seller can open up a booth to sell their personal firearms, but remember that there is a fine line between how many guns they can sell and what is considered trafficking. Also remember, they don't have to open up a booth. If you make a law that says "even private sales at gunshows must have a background check", all they have to do is walk off the property and make the sale across the street.

I'm not asking anything about "crossing the street", I'm asking a direct question. Can a person, without any license buy a booth and sell guns all weekend? You say yes but with a fine line, what is that fine line?

I didn't say they could "sell guns all weekend". If you, as a private citizen, set up a booth at a gunshow and start madly selling your personal firearms, you are engaging in gun trafficking. If you open up a booth and only sell a 2 or 3 of your personal firearms, and then you don't sell any other of your personal firearms for "x" amount of time, then you are not engaging in trafficking. I can't give you an exact definition of that fine line or what the exact "x" number of guns that you sell constitute crossing the line from private sales to trafficking, or the exact "x" amount of time but it is A FINE LINE. Just like going to multilple gunshows in "x" amount of time, but only selling one gun per show still counts as trafficking. Or taking out one add in the paper per month to sell one gun per month over a period of many months would count as trafficking. It's a fine line; that's it. If you want a more exact definition of that "fine line", I'm sure someone else on this site can, and most-likely will, give you a more clear answer on that.

the fees to sell one or two guns? You seeing a "loophole" yet? Probably not. Aren't you the guy who started this tread by telling us to shut up and deal with it? Now you need someone to bail you out because you don't know the actual number of the "fine line"?

...but I don't think you see what I'm saying. Private Sellers DON'T HAVE to open up booths at gunshows. If you made a law that says they have to perform a background check at the gunshow, then all they have to do is disuss the transaction there (and unless you can mind read what they are saying to each other you can't prove what they are discussing), then walk off the property and make the transaction.

No, I don't need someone to bail me out on "a fine line". I'm comfortable without anyone giving a more exact definition of it. If you go to a gunshow and sell a couple of your guns, you are fine. If you then immediately to another gunshow and sell a few more of your guns, you are trafficking. If you go to a gun show and sell many guns, you are trafficking.

don't change the scenario to fit your model. Can a private citizen purchase a booth and sell guns? You said yes. Are they doing it? Yes they are. Are they selling guns without background checks? Yes they are. There is the loophole. You can dance around it all you want but the bottom line is people are selling guns at gun shows, behind a booth without FFLs. You can change the scenario all you want but the bottom line is guns are being sold to criminals at gun shows and you defend it by not recognizing it as a problem.

I've already answered this in my OP. They aren't required to do a background check specifically because they are selling their personal private firearms. It's no different than selling any other of your personal private belongings. I think you are being obtuse on purpose.

without an FFL? You don't want to call it a loophole so what shall we call it?

The reason it's not a loophole, is because you are only addressing one small issue. Stopping private sellers from opening up a booth will not accomplish what you want accomplished. Not in the least.

sales on the gun show floor would. This is the loophole: "A Private Seller is not required to have a form filled out or have a buyer pass an instant background check". Without the "personal property bullshit" why is selling a gun from a booth by a person with an FFL different from Joe Blow selling a weapon on the floor of the show without a license? As a gun owner, which do you feel is the safer practice?

You would not be stopping sales on the gunshow floor. Jow Blow could still walk around with his guns, on the gunshow floor, and sell them; as Joe Blow DOES NOT NEED A BOOTH. Now why is Joe Blow selling a two or three of his firearms from a booth different from an FFL doing it? Because Joe Blow is selling his personal firearms and is not selling so many that it would be considered gun trafficking. Why don't you understand this? I think I'm going to have to go to bed and let some of the others on the site explain this to you tomorrow when they are up, because you just don't seem to get it.

because Joe Blow might be selling to a felon? Is that hard to grasp?

...if Joe Blow sells to a felon from a booth he has set up to sell two or three guns or if Joe Blow sells to a felon the two or three guns he is walking around the gunshow with? Good grief man!

with the selling of guns to felons? With background checks we can at least stop some of it, without the check we stop nothing. Are you so in love with the second amendment you would be OK with felons and terrorists buying weapons?

I only asked you what the difference is between a felon getting his gun from a booth or from someone walking around with their wares. I'm not ok with felons getting guns, however I have already explained to you in the OP that in order to stop felons from getting guns from private sales, you have to have national gun registration to make it work...which isn't going to happen.

support opening the NCIS system to private sellers?

You can make a very good case for opening up the NCIS system to private sellers, but that issue has to do with private sales across the board, not anything particular to gun shows.

Because that's what you mean whether you realize it or not, when you say opening it up to 'private sellers'.

Anyone, literally ANYONE could run a check on you. I'm ok with that, hope you are too.

But that is a WHOLE different issue that the stupid VPC Brady Bunch "gunshow loophole" shit.

Most gunowners and most people on DU support opening NICS for person to person sales.

My one sticking point is the system should work in such a way to protect private information.

If you give me all the info required on NICS form I can steal your identity.
I can get your birth cert.
With that I can get a driver's license in your name.
If you don't have one yet I can even get a passport in your name.
I can get CC, loans, bank account in your name.

So as long as such a private to private system protects identifying information MOST people support opening NICS to private to private transactions.

However to call that a "gunshow loophole" is just plain stupid. It would be used for far more than gunshows.

The antis use the term gunshow loophole because the uneducated voting public tend to think that gunshows are 3rd world arms bazars. Where any dealer can sell anything from cruise missiles ot automatic weapons to known felons and the law can do nothing about it.

You can be pro "public NICS" and against any "gunshow loophole propaganda".

If you passed a law that said that no private sales could happen at gun shows, the rare private individuals that sell at gun shows could still hook up with buyers at the gun show and then walk across the street to conduct business.

Trying to stop the private transfer of property in one single building is ridiculous.

If you sell your personal guns from a booth inside the gun show hall or from the back of your car in the parking lot of the gun show?

I'm talking about booths inside the gun show. I'm going to stop addressing your changing of scenarios to further your point. How many guns, from a booth can a private seller sell without an FFL? Why would a vendor with an FFL want to compete with sellers who do not pay for FFLs?

So I don't have to repeat myself.

hey, before you go spouting unsubstantiated drivel, why not go to ATF.gov? They have an FAQ and a nifty website we pay for.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

(C10) May a person obtain a dealer's license to engage in business only at gun shows?

No. A license may only be issued for a permanent premises at which the license applicant intends to do business. A person having such license may conduct business at gun shows located in the State in which the licensed premises is located and sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to other licensees at any location.

<18 U.S.C. 923(a) and (j)>


B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30>

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30>

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)>

The law requires anyone who sells guns as a business or in interstate commerce to have a license. The murkiness in the regulation is the definition of "in the business."

A good example is selling a car. If you sell your car you are not a dealer and your state does not require you to collect sales tax. Many states set a limit on how many times a person can sell his car an not pay sales taxes. The "magic" number in my state is 6. If you sell 6 cars in a year, you are a "de facto dealer" be cause the Revenue Cabinet says so and they want their 6%.

There is no similar hard and fast rule for guns and the FFL requirement. If you are in the business of selling guns you need a license. If you make an occasional sale of a personally owned gun, you don't. Does a guy who buys a gun, keeps it for a while and sells it or trades for a different or nicer one a dealer? Or is he improving his collection?

If "in fact" he is doing it in furtherance of a business he is a dealer and requires a license. The problem may be in that a jury has to determine that to be fact.

If you inherit a closet full of old guns you know nothing about and have no interest in and you peddle them in a yard sale are you a dealer? If you rent a table at a gun show instead, on the assumption there will be more potential buyers, does that make you a dealer? Can you take that closet full of guns across the state line and sell them? (Only if you sell them to a licensee, aka FFL.)

The ATF talks in terms of licensees and non-licensees for a reason. Those terms are defined. "Unlicensed dealer" is not. Now as for opening up NICs to everyone. Suppose you were wondering about that dude your daughter is dating, call NICS and see if you can sell him a gun? What about calling in your boss before you next go asking for a raise?

Are they selling guns without background checks? Yes they are. There is the loophole.

No. A loophole is colloquially a means of evading the law; of doing something that would normally be illegal. But we're talking about states that do not regulate face-to-face sales between private citizens who are not "in the business"; therefore, such sales (sans NICS background check, which is not available to non-FFLs anyway) are legal wherever they take place, be it at a gun show, the seller's house, a strip mall parking lot, you name it.

Moreover, the number of guns being sold to criminals at gun shows is, to anyone's firm knowledge, negligible. The last time anyone did any research, the results indicated that 0.7% of criminals acquired their firearms at gun shows, and another 1% at flea markets. Since then, there are plenty of anecdotes, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data," reducing any estimates to the level of speculation.

have a good night.

I have purchased guns at gun shows from people who were not dealers. The individuals selling the gun had very few arms on display. No NICS test was performed; in fact, one could not perform a NICS test unless the seller was a dealer. This is not a loophole vis a vis a "gun show." If there is a "loophole" it is with the law not requiring individual sellers (non-dealers) to go through NICS. If you want to change the system to require ANYONE who wishes to purchase/sell a gun to access the NICS system, then advocate THAT. Otherwise, you are puttering about the edges of a non-issue.

Frankly, a gun show is a crappy place for crims to get guns. A few weeks ago, in Austin, TX., the girlfriend of a felon was spotted by police making a straw purchase for the crim. Both face charges. APD just posts someone in the parking lot (packed to over-filling) to enter license plates until one rings a bell. Ding. The crim would have better luck perusing yard sales or hanging with his thug buddies -- neither "scenario" is regulated.

You have to ask yourself: when is a gun show not a gun show? And how far are you willing to restrict a gathering of people who wish to buy & sell firearms? It sounds as if you are pissed at the marketing scheme and want somehow to do away with such. Or you want to regulate individual sales.

Which is it?

There is nothing about a private seller, selling personal firearms under the limit that requires an FFL license, at a gun show, that is not also true of your local newspaper.

Also, the justice department has taken a look at gun shows, and your claim that criminals are purchasing there is highly spurious. It's about 0.3%. Remember, Gun Shows are absolutely crawling with police officers, on duty and off duty. In fact, many of the sellers are off duty officers. At the Washington Arms Collectors show in (ostensibly) Washington, you can't spit 10 feet without hitting a police officer.

Of course, you also cannot buy and sell to or from ANYONE at the show who isn't a member without being booted forever, and membership requires a clean NICS check.

A person can sell privately owned firearms anywhere without an NICS check. Period.
Now some state laws prohibit person to person sales but most don't.

If you think that people shouldn't be able to sell privately owned firearms then fine say that.

But acting like prohibiting it at gunshow while allowing it to happen EVERYWHERE else is just disingenuous.

Most antis talking about "gunshow loophole" are doing so to pass laws prohibiting private transfer ANYWHERE. Not just at a gunshow. I mean what good would it do to have 1 set of rules at a gunshow and less restrictive rules OUTSIDE a gunshow.

Michael, what you are hinting at is that private individuals open booths at gun shows and sell lots of firearms, and so avoid having to do background checks.

I'm fairly certain this does not happen very often at all.

First of all, I've been to a fair number of gun shows. It's quite obvious that the people selling guns - the people who bother to rent a booth and set up a professional array of firearms for sale - are just that - professionals.

You just don't see a guy at a booth with 2 pistols and a rifle on his table.

Now you might wonder why he doesn't rent a booth and set up 50 pistols and rifles on his table.

Because the rest of the legitimate professional vendors would go ape-shit about it and turn him in. Or, the law-enforcement officers that I regularly see at such shows would nail him.

I have, on one occasion, seen a fellow walking through a gun show with a rifle slung over his shoulder with a little flag sticking out the top of the barrel that said "For Sale". This is the only private sale attempt I have ever witnessed in years of going to gun shows.

The bottom line is this: Getting an FFL is a pain in the butt. I filled out all the paperwork once as I was contemplating becoming an internet dealer of firearms (which is itself skirting the law which is why I did not follow through with the paperwork). If you try and sell firearms like a dealer without an FFL, you are seriously playing with fire.

This "fine line" has been created by the federal government. We can, and do, speculate as to why but that is the case. The "fine line" could be made very thick and be well established IF the BATFE would only put a number to it.

If I have 1,000 personal weapons I can sell all 1,000 of them.
I can sell them at my home.
I can sell them from my card.
I can sell them online.
I can sell them in classified ad.
I can sell them on craigslist.
I can sell them at a public place.
I can ALSO sell them at a gunshow.

Trying to "help" and then adding your own "fine line numbers" isn't helping.

There is no limit. Period.

Now if I PURCHASE FIREARMS with the intent to SELL THEM TO ANOTHER PERSON.
Even 1 single .22LR that is a straw purchase.

However if I am an old man and have bought 10-20 firearms every year for my entire life and want to sell them. There is no "fine line".

There are no federal laws specific to a gunshow.
By federal law a gunshow is NO DIFFERENT IN ANY WAY than selling a firearm outside a gunshow.

If you can sell a firearm outside a gunshow then you can sell it in a gunshow.
If you can't sell a firearm outside a gunshow then you can't sell it in a gunshow.
If you are required to do an NICS check outside a gunshow then you are required to do an NICS check inside a gunshow.
If you are not required to do an NICS check outside a gunshow then you are not required to do an NICS check inside a gunshow.
If you are legal buyer outside a gunshow then you are a legal buyer inside a gunshow.
If you are not a legal buyer outside a gunshow then you are not a legal buyer inside a gunshow.

If I didn't know any better based on your post I WOULD think there was a gunshow loophole.

...gunshow, and try selling 1000 firearms and see what happens. The ATF will be all over you.

The issue is as long as they are private property not purchased with the intent to resell.

If there is a fine line then it should be easy to find.

Find it and report back.

Laws and regulations are subject to public scrutiny. We don't believe in secret laws.

BATFE has plenty of online resources. Shouldn't take you more than few minutes to find this "magic fine line".

Sell one firearm you purchased with the intent to resell to someone needing to avoid backgrond check it is a straw purchase. There is no line. 5 is ok but 6 is illegal. Any straw purchase is illegal.

Sell 1000 firearms from a personal collection and it is legal.

My friend who collects old revolvers purchase 2 from an estate sale where a widower was selling her husbands collections. He said there were about 200 or so firearms for sale. So if 200 above or below the "magic fine line"?

The BATFE does this all the time with their "grey areas". You want a prime example of bullshit that they pull? There is no law on the books that says you can't attach a front forward vertical pistol grip onto a pistol, such as one of those AR Pistols. But if you do it, the BATFE will arrest you for creating an Any Other Weapon (AOW), and throw you in prison for 10 years. Again, it's not on the books; I dare you to find it; but if you do it, you'll get arrested. In fact, it's probably not even a good idea to have more front forward vertical pistol grips in the house than you have rifles that can support them while also owning one of those AR Pistols (or one similar); because if they really wanted to, they could arrest you for having the ability to create an AOW. They love grey area.

Run into it all the time with AR pistols- <16" barrelled upper without a lower but a regular lower handy? Constructive possession of a Short Barreled Rifle.

The sad thing is that for some of these grey areas, the ATF has sent conflicting letters to different people who asked materially the same question.

A person who is not a Type 01 Federal Firearms Licensee (i.e. licensed gun dealer) can rent a table at a gun show and sell firearms. However, he can only sell firearms that are his personal property (whereas the guns an FFL sells belong to his business), only to residents of his home state (which he must be in at the time), and there's only so much income he can make from selling guns before the ATF is going to have a chat and tell him he needs to get a Type 01 FFL if he wants to do any more business.

Exactly where that line is drawn is vague, and basically at the discretion of the ATF. The Gun Control Act of 1968 describes a dealer as "a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of obtaining livelihood through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms," and such a person must have a Type 01 FFL.
On the other hand, "a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms" is not considered a dealer and thus not required to get license.

To give as straight an answer to your question as I can: yes, an unlicensed seller can rent a table and sell (his own) guns all weekend. But not every weekend, or even most weekends.

guns are being sold at gun shows without background checks, sometimes to felons? The law that controls the sale of guns by unlicensed sellers is vague, with no way to track sellers over a long period. "A person who devotes time," does not include a person who sells guns all weekend? You don't see a problem? This isn't a "loophole" where felons can acquire weapons?

7) So if calling the loophole a "gunshow" loophole is incorrect, what name would more accurately describe the problem? "Private Sales Loophole".

It's incorrectly termed the "gun show loophole" because there is nothing special about gun shows that suddenly makes it legal to privately sell a firearm when it would not be anywhere else in that state.

You're also having a selective quoting problem; the law doesn't just say "a person who devotes time," it also says "as a regular course of trade or business." One weekend playing tennis doesn't make you a professional tennis player, even if you do it all weekend. Doing your taxes once a year doesn't make you an accountant. Now, if you start spending a weekend every month selling guns, it's getting iffy. For starts, as the law says, to be an unlicensed seller, you can only make "occasional sales" or "sell all or part of your personal collection." If you're manning a table at a gun show every month, you must have a pretty sizable personal collection, or sales must be really slow, or you're doing stuff that the ATF doesn't approve of (namely buying guns and then reselling them "as a regular course of trade").

This isn't a "loophole" where felons can acquire weapons?

It may be a "loophole," but it's not a "gun show loophole," which is the point Deadric was trying to get across. The "loophole" consists of it not being illegal for private citizens to sell their guns to other private citizens in a number of states. One reason it's not illegal is because, as long as you're selling a resident of the same state, it's not interstate commerce, which means it's not really any of the federal government's business (I know, neither is medical marijuana, and that hasn't stopped the feds; but I think they were wrong to do so). Selling firearms across state lines is illegal, by the way; so you can't drive up from Oakland, CA to a gun show in Vancouver, WA and buy guns off a private seller without both of you committing a federal felony.

Now, maybe lack of scrutiny on sales between private parties is a problem, but if so, that's a general problem, and not one specifically tied to gun shows. In fact, the convenience of a gun show cuts both ways: it makes it easier for prospective buyers and sellers to find each other, but it also makes it easier for both to be found by the ATF and the local cops.

Can a person, without any license buy a booth and sell guns all weekend? You say yes but with a fine line, what is that fine line?

If said person is buying booths and selling guns all weekend the BATFE will consider them in the business of selling guns and likely go after them for doing so without a license. The BATFE has a presence at most gun shows I have been to.

If said person is selling a couple pieces then, he is legal, since it is simply a face to face personal property transaction.

The problem with closing the gun show loophole is that it opens the door for the government to control a whole heck of a lot more then firearms in terms of what, when and how you can transfer them. Think Patriot act sure we will only use it for Terrorists......well terrorists could be in the United States......well law enforcement could utilize it.......well......etc.

A great many gun owners would love to have the ability to run a NICS check with a small cost to save them the headache of selling face to face. It would have to be a limited system that keeps the privacy of all involved and would have to be voluntary.

Now just because it is voluntary does not take the teeth out of it since a civil court could find that by not using an available check that a person is liable for damages but not criminally liable.

All that being said, how many crime guns come from gun shows, something under 1% IIRC (Don't take this as Gospel at the moment but it is a really small number) so once again we waste time, money and resources that could be directed towards actual criminals or put more first responders on the street.

Want to close the gun show loophole, get the government to offer NICS light to the general public with proper privacy controls etc. Make it voluntary and let the civil courts deal with anything that happens as a result of not using it. This would still give one the option, but likely still provide for a level of forced responsibility so to speak.......but that opens up another question. If we can have the ability to do NICS checks on each other why not just allow for direct transfers across state lines as long as said NICS checks are enforced (Just playing devils advocate here)

"Want to close the gun show loophole, get the government to offer NICS light to the general public with proper privacy controls etc. Make it voluntary and let the civil courts deal with anything that happens as a result of not using it. This would still give one the option, but likely still provide for a level of forced responsibility so to speak.......but that opens up another question. If we can have the ability to do NICS checks on each other why not just allow for direct transfers across state lines as long as said NICS checks are enforced (Just playing devils advocate here)"

Excellent exposition of the real concern, cslinger59. We need to get off the "gun show loophole" pot and talk about real stuff.

It's called a gun show loophole because a person can sell X amount of guns to complete strangers who browse his booth without having to be declared a dealer, and the same person can visit multiple gunshows with a minimum amount of record-keeping so that the "X" number can be fudged.

Sure, they can do it through classifieds, too, but they are more likely to be caught since they are running constant advertisements, and they are less likely to have a high exposure.

I agree that America is too chickenshit to pass decent legislation protecting us from guns, though. This era of America will become a morality tale to future generations, where the numbers of horrific slaughter are recited the way we recite the numbers of the Holocaust.

...a 4 state radius, and you are selling one or two guns at each show, and you are doing this within a few months time, you will be noticed by legit dealers, and you will be arrested for trafficking.

it was legal for someone without a license to sell firearms at a gun show.

...I also said that there is a fine line between private sales and gun trafficking. The ATF doesn't see any difference between selling a whole bunch of guns at once and selling one or two at a time but on many multiple occassions in a certain period of time.

It's your thread, you must have an answer.

It's one of those things where if the ATF feels you have intent to be dealing but don't have a license, then they start watching you to determine the intent of you're actions. Some people just have large collections they are liquidating/trading for other firearms. One would have to write/call the ATF for an official number/limit on instances of private sales that qualify one as dealing.

The rule of thumb, as I understand it, is if you're buying guns for the purpose of selling (you have no intent to possess that firearm for any significant period of time) and you're selling those guns for a profit... then it is a business venture and you're dealing/trafficking. It's really a grey area that needs rules more strictly defined by the ATF which I doubt they'll do because there's alot of power for the ATF in that grey area.

If you have questions, call the ATF between between 9/5 and they'll answer question.
I've called and asked them quite a few things myself and always find them to be helpful, with people's best interests in their intentions.

It is NOT legal to engage in selling firearms to earn a living. That is dealing and you must have a FFl. Most of the private sellers at guns shows are selling anything BUT firearms. There will be sellerrs of beef jerky, beanie babies, coins, books, jewelry, scopes and firearms accesories. Most of the private sales are people walking around with their personal firearms with a sign that says "for sale or trade".

SO, to answer your question, yes, it is legal for someone without a license to sell firearms at a gun show as long as it is from their private collection and they are not doing it to earn a living.

so please don't change the scenario. My question was, can people pay for a booth and sell firearms without a license? You can dance and try to change the question but it stands. Can an unlicensed person set up a booth at a gun show and sell weapons?

...you go ahead hand get a law passed that says private citizens can't open up a booth at a gunshow, unless they run background checks at the booth. People will still just walk around with their firearms for sale without opening up a booth and without doing a background check. So there you go......you get your pet-peeve of no booths for private citizens, and the loophole will remain. Satisfied?

what do you want to call it?

You just completely ignored my response. What you want accomplished will not be accomplished by a minor and insignificant law saying "no private sales booths can sell guns without a background check".

Do you need to have the words "pay for a private booth" included in the answer?

Let me reword and repeat my answer:

SO, to answer your question, yes, it is legal for someone without a license TO SET UP A BOOTH to sell firearms at a gun show as long as it is from their private collection and they are not doing it to earn a living.

and without a background check? That is the loophole. The possibility that felons are purchasing from private collections without background checks. What's the most troubling is that you seem to not have a problem with that.

selling their private property. Doesn't matter if it is at a gun show, out of their trunk or from their own home. If you want background checks, make it possible for a private individual to access the NICS system. Until then the "loophole" is always going to be there.

As far as how many, I have a FFL to buy curios and relics. I can order firearms by mail order or directly from suppliers. Sometimes I will buy 5 of the same gun and only keep one or two of the best and then sell the rest. Is selling 3 or 4 firearms at one time legal. Absolutely.

do you support opening up the NICS system to private sellers and making it a crime if they don't use it?

...just opening it up isn't going to change felons getting guns from private sales, because there will always be some private sellers that will chose to not use it.

some and therefore close the loophole you say doesn't exist.

Not a gunshow loophole.

I have said, many times, there is a loophole; but you seem to be zeroed in on one small factor. You can't stop an infestation of ants by cleaning up all the spilled sugar in one corner of the room, when there is sugar on the floor in the other 3 corners. I'm going to bed, as it is quite clear any further discussion with you on this is just going to end up with having to repeat myself over and over and over.

at gun shows without background checks should be illegal, why is that so hard to admit to? It puts weapons in the hands of felons.

The ban is strong with this one.

Enjoy your dreams of Fascism, but please don't act so innocent when called on your BS.

But why make private sales of weapons at gun shows illegal, but not make private sales of weapons through the local newspaper classified ads illegal? Why make private sales of weapons at gun shows illegal, but not make them illegal at my kitchen table?

What is special about gun shows?

If you want background checks, make it possible for a private individual to access the NICS system. Until then the "loophole" is always going to be there.

If it is available to everyone to use, absolutey, it should be a law.

why do so many fight it? Loophole closed.

Would object to or has objected to making this happen. I see on a regular basis where gun owners say the NICS system should be available to private sellers. I know you are on these board often enough that you have seen this as well.

I have never seen it. I'm not one of those, "show me" posters either. I would point out that in the 3 or 4 threads I've started today on this topic no one has offered that idea.

fire-medic-dave, paulsby, digger-x and many others have said "open up the nics system" but it is almost 2am and I am tired and going to bed.

FFL's charge $25 and up to do a transfer from private sellers. It is possible to do but I don't know of a lot of people that want to pay a FFL just to make a phone call. Push a law that would open up the system to private sellers and it may reduce the number of firearms in criminals hands. You are going to get pushback from privacy advocates.

I'm just glad we could agree on something that can only help gun ownership. Sleep well.

"I'm just glad we could agree on something that can only help gun ownership"

As am I, take care

I have never seen it. I'm not one of those, "show me" posters either. I would point out that in the 3 or 4 threads I've started today on this topic no one has offered that idea.

That's because it has been talked about around here many times before.

I, personally, do not favor requiring NICS checks for private sales, because we will then have defacto firearm registration, as every single time a person buys a firearm, from a dealer or private individual, the government will have a record of that transaction.

Today we all have plausible deniability of firearm ownership, because we could have sold off our firearms privately should the government come looking for them.

#1) There's no way to enforce the law and ensure private sales are calling NICS as NICS does not "record" information. They simply give a GO or NO GO response. Private mandatory NICS use will never work or be enforcable without a full private ownership gun registry in effect. And any person who has ever debated gun registires must concede that an American Private Sales Gun Registry would NEVER work logistically, even if one could be implemented without exploding the heads of gun owners.

The reason NICS works for retail/business FFL shops is that such a registry exists via the network of "FFL Bound Book" records - all legal guns held by FFL dealers can be tracked. It's in the best interest of thier business (thier livelihood) and legal interest to keep guns on the books and everything legal because the ATF can easily locate and track any guns they should have or sell. Private sales cannot be tracked quite so easily because no registry-like network exists at a private level.

#2) Private citizens access to NICS, a database of people and thier personal informatoin, may not be a good idea. If I could access NICS, I could simply call and know if any one of you was legally able to own firearms for self defense. People who are not allowed to own firearms make for easy targets by armed criminals. To sum it up, if a criminal had your cantact info (name & address) they are one phonecall away from finding out if you have the means to protect yourself. In all honesty, I'm not sure this is such a strong point as criminals probably wouldn't care to bother.

In summation:
The only way to close the "gunshow loophole" as fear mongers like to state is...
a) Open a functional private gun registry and make NICS & record mandatory for all gun ownership. (this is never going to happen)
or
b) Create a law banning the sale of private guns (property) directly to other private citizens. (too much political backlash for this)

There's no need to record anything, you simply put the burden of proof on the seller to establish the customer passes a NICS check. If you sell, and the person wasn't eligable, you no longer have the 'I didn't know' protection we see now, where you are only culpable if you KNOWINGLY sell to a prohibited person, and the burden of proof is on the Prosecutor.

NICS is a federal registry of people who have committed CRIMES, not guns. (also flags for those adjudicated mentally incompetent)
NICS has nothing to do with tracing guns used in crimes or anything else.
NICS will not respond with any information to an inquiry of whether you own any firearms. Its simply an 'are you eligable' check.

that the option for private sales to verify NICS status would be helpful but the mandating it's use would be a FAILURE in solving any issue.

for you since you have a FFL?

He's got a Type 03 FFL, aka the "C&R" (curios and relics). It means he's legally authorized to have firearms shipped directly to his home without having to go through a (Type 01) FFL, provided those firearms are classed as "curios & relics" by the ATF. That generally means antique/obsolete military pistols and rifles and such. But a Type 03 FFL doesn't authorize you to sell firearms as if you were a Type 01, that is, a dealer.

from the ATF and numerous undercover officers from the local police and several uniformed police officers walking around? Really?

David

For a loophole to exist, there must regulations or laws that the loophole is legally circumventing.
The first definition I found by googling: Loophole - A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.

A loose example, Cars driven on public roads must be registered/licensed. One such loophole might be, "If the vehicle is designated as a work or farming vehicle, it may drive across the road or travel along the road a short distances to allow access to separate worksites/properties."
(I paraphrased, more or less. But laws exist that allow unregistered farming/business vehicles to access public roads to aces separate parts of one's property.)

In the case of an individual selling private guns, since there is no federal requirement for private sellers to have an FFL (and there has never been a requirement or permit of any kind) to sell firearms from a private collection... how can a "Loophole" exist. There are no federal laws limiting the sale of private guns by private persons without FFLs, so how can there be difficulties, omissions, ambiguities, or contractual agreements to "evade/escape".

You understand that are proposing the existence of a loophole whose purpose is to circumvent NONexistant laws.
That's stupid. There is no such thing as the Gunshow Loophole. It's a word game played by fear mongers because the term "private seller" does not sound menacing enough.

...however I see that as more of semantics. Don't get me wrong when I say that, because the only way to close the loophole is a national gun registry; since I am against that, the loophole should stay. But I do find your arguement, though very understanding, to be semantics. It's kind of like when someone on the pro-gun side goes out of their way to explain to an anti-gunner that an AK-47 Clone used in a mass shooting was semi-automatic and not a real AK. I find that to be semantics as well, because I do think the anti's have a point in that it wouldn't make a huge difference in how many were killed had the AK been real as opposed to a semi-automatic clone. But don't take that the wrong way either, because even though I feel they have a point, I also don't give a shit; we're keeping our semi-automatics whether they like it or not.

In my state there is a form for private sales that must be completed by seller and buyer. This is essentially the same form used by dealers except instructions for private sale are included. The form can be obtained from any police department and must be filled out and forwarded to the Firearms Record Bureau within seven days.

You are limited to four private sales per year. Both buyer and seller must be properly licensed to own the gun being sold.



So it seems that some of your 'facts' are at best dependent upon local laws. Based on your point 10, it also seems that you are an advocate of 'the loophole'.

Very nice.

It does not exist, it is a "Private sale loophole" the ONLY WAY to close the "gun show loophole" that is described by the Anti-Civil rights forces, is to close the "private sale" loophole, and that, is a political impossablitiy...

Let me explain...The only way to ENFORCE a law, against private sales, IS to have total arms registration of all EXISTING guns, and that will NOT happen. Face it, the Anti-Civil Rights forces, cannot even get any gun control on the Federal level, and in the vast majority of the states, a politician's first vote for gun control, tends to be among their last votes..

For Clarification, this map, shows, just where, a person, can sell a gun, face to face, with absolutely NO government aproval...Notice, this is the vast majority of the nation..

Be honest, you Gun Show Loophole supporters, THIS is the "loophole" you want to close, and it will be a cold day in hell before it happens..

Those who believe crooks get their guns at gun shows will note that Massachusetts law permits private transfer
of long guns. Handguns require a permit and the services of a FFL holder, with NICS check.

Thus, it should be easier for a bad guy to get a rifle or shotgun than a handgun (no background check).

You would expect, then, if "the gun show loophole" allows criminals to buy guns easily, that rifles would
be overrepresented in Massachusetts crime stats, ie. (percentage of crimes committed with long guns vs.
those committed with handguns).

But they're not- they are about the national average (handguns far outnumber long guns in reports of
gun crime). And the numbers of both are below the national average, even though we do have a number
of urban areas riddled with violent crime and poverty.