Rifle used in museum shooting too old to trace, official says

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- It is not possible for authorities to trace the rifle used in this week's shooting at the Holocaust Memorial Museum to the original purchaser, a law enforcement source said Friday.

The source, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation, said the weapon is a Winchester Model 6, .22 caliber rifle -- a type of gun manufactured between 1908 and 1928 -- long before records were kept on gun purchases.

Authorities also were checking to see if the weapon had been used in any other crime, the source said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/12/museum.shooting/index.html

It was pretty loose, but still shot okay.

like it, it was called a crack shot. If he didn't own this weapon that long where would one buy an old gun like this?

Probably a dealer at a gun show. It's like visiting four or five dozen gun stores at once. Boring for the new stuff, but a good resource if you're looking for a particular kind of gun.


Gunbroker.com might have been used... the shooter was at least marginally internet-savvy.


A gun that old is probably worth a decent amount. He could have gotten a semi-auto from Marlin for about $150 new, and Taurus makes .22 pumps just like that one in the picture.

at a gun show even felons could purchase?

edit, sorry that was a dirty trick. There is a responsible discussion about this gun, I should have chosen that path.

..assuming the NICS database was current. He was convicted in 1983... is it possible the NICS didn't have him and his crimes on file?


To be honest I began wandering into generalities in my other reply. :-)



Von Brunn, specifically, could only have bought it in the NICS era from a private seller who was unaware of his criminal history.

He could have bought it from a private seller or federally-licensed dealer if they were unaware of his criminal history.

Or he could have had it someplace. Tucked away in his attic, perhaps. A steamer trunk in the basement. It's old... perhaps it was his first gun.

He could have stolen it. Perhaps it was handed down through a couple of generations, and he "liberated" it from his grandkid.


This particular guns... I think it was special to him somehow.

will never know where the gun came from but we both have to agree, he could have gotten it from a gun show from a private seller. Gun show management could stop "floor sales", they could stop non-FFL sales. The quality of their booth patrons would likely improve, quality, licensed dealers with a bigger selection would then occupy those booths. Certainly no one can stop the "parking lot" or "across the street sales" but Gun Shows could greatly improve their image by moving towards a role in stopping "bad sells", the ones where felons buy guns.

Now you know this won't happen because the NRA overlords don't want it to happen. It's up to the membership of the NRA to stand up and say, "We want to help solve the problem!" Don't you want that also?

... that the political capital we would spend on trying to plug this hole (which is a state's issue, by the way) is not efficient. Private sellers at a gun show are a miniscule source of crime guns; criminals usually steal them, borrow them, or have a straw purchaser buy them.

So it's expending a lot of political capital for something that will only rally the Republicans to the ballot box and cement the Dem's "gun-grabbing" reputation for no practical gain.

I'd rather spend the political capital on, say, state-by-state campaign to legalize gay marriage.

The gun-show "loophole" is a lot of bombast without a lot of substance, IMO.

a state issue, I agree. Examine the 10 or 20 non-tracked gun sale at gun shows to a felon, it's probably higher. Those gun 10 or 20 guns a year are now in the stream of criminal activity, how many crimes will be committed using those guns and how long will it take to get them off the streets? As a responsible gun owner you should care about that, the NRA should care about it.

And I don't think the remedy would help any.


What I DO think would help is running an NICS check on every person that gets a driver's license or other state-issued ID. If that person was legally able to buy a gun, then you put a little code in one corner of the license, like "LTOF" (legal to own firearms). If that person gets their right to own firearms pulled, then the judge or the police snip off that corner of the license.

This way, at every private transfer, there is no excuse for the seller to know if the buyer is legal or not. Clipped license=no sale. Period, end of discussion.

private sellers honor it? Would the NRA membership allow it? Also, 10 to 20 illegally sold firearms to felons, entering the criminal stream is not minor. How many crimes could a gang commit with one "gun show" firearm in a month? You should really care about that.

...or other person who is known to be prohibited. Doing so when you have means readily at hand to find out is negligence and a crime.

Felons would not be able to put on khakis and an ironed shirt and go buy a gun from an unsuspecting citizen at a yard sale, for example. The straw purchaser would definately be able to be prosecuted. No excuses.

As to the 10 to 20 guns... the assumption that the flow of guns wouldn't compensate for this slight blockage I don't think is realistic. With demand steady, the market would adapt. Besides, what's 10 t0 20 guns in the DC criminal underworld, anyway?

Remember, guns are not the motive for crime, they are the means to crime.

Why not brand felons with a big F on their arm.

Think people might abuse that?
An employer notices a potential employee is missing the FTOF mark.
So he is either crazy, a felon, or a crazy felon..... "we will be in touch".

Any system would need to be protect privacy and be instantly updated, and accessibly via web & 1-800 number.
If it does I would support it and most RKBA groups would too.

One possible comeback is that I can say "if it's not intrusive to register guns, then this isn't intrusive either. Public safety, after all".

However, we could also do the same thing with ultraviolet ink. Invisible until you actually look for it. Printed on the back, for example. However, a clippable corner would be faster and easier than having to mail somebody a new license every time their status changes.

Maybe that is because I am a "gun nut".
VA (and the majority of states) have no registration.

My proposed system is this:

Whenever a citizen applies for a Drivers License or State-Issued ID will be run through NICS, unless they choose to opt out. If they pass NICS, then they will be issued an FOID (Firearm Owner Identification) number that will be printed on the back of their ID.

Just because you don't have an FOID on your license does not mean you are a felon or crazy. It could very well mean that you simply opted out, as many non or anti-firearm-interested citizens no doubt would do. So the lack of an FOID number is harmless.

Then, pass a law that says for ALL firearm sales, dealer or private, you must supply your FOID number, and the seller must keep a paper record of this transaction for 10 years, with stiff penalties for non-compliance. This will allow end-to-end traceability of firearms through investigative police work with warrants. The transactions must never be computerized, however, as this would compromise anonymous firearm ownership.

No one would risk straw-purchasing a firearm for someone without an FOID number because should that firearm ever get into the hands of law enforcement it would be traced right back to the person who bought it and sold it with no record of who they sold it to.

My only concern is that people would "lose" their gun=yes ID once they are no longer eligible.
Of course the state could demand they turn it in but someone could "lose" it.

If you take it a step further:
A website & 1-800 number (1-800-SAFE-GUN) where someone could enter the FOID # and the system would return the persons name and valid/invalid status. They could also return a confirmation code.

Now I know some people would be concerned about defacto registration issues. I would be too.
However the system would not have a record of firearms it would simply be a record of checks.

Example:
I want to sell you a gun. I ask to see your driver's license. I call 1-800-SAFE-GUN and enter your 6 digit FOID number.
System returns your name which matches your ID. It also returns valid. It gives me a confirmation #.
I sell you the gun. Keep a record and record the confirmation #.

I have proof now in case of a computer glitch (you really are a felon but the system failed) that I acted in good faith. The confirmation # provides me protection from liability.

My only concern is that people would "lose" their gun=yes ID once they are no longer eligible.
Of course the state could demand they turn it in but someone could "lose" it.

If they did, they would be liable to severe criminal penalties. Because if they sold their weapons, then they would have had to record and keep for 10 years a record of the FOID number they sold their firearms to. And if they were lost or stolen, then a police report would have to have been filed.

In any case, I propose that when an FOID number is invalidated the local sheriff is empowered to go to the address of that person, with a warrant, and confiscate the FOID and any firearms found on the premises.

If you take it a step further:
A website & 1-800 number (1-800-SAFE-GUN) where someone could enter the FOID # and the system would return the persons name and valid/invalid status. They could also return a confirmation code.

Now I know some people would be concerned about defacto registration issues. I would be too.
However the system would not have a record of firearms it would simply be a record of checks.

The problem with this scenario is the government has an instant computerized list of all firearm owners, regardless of what firearms they actually own.

EVERYBODY gets a number, regardless of their status. And you have to call that number to check the status.

This way, if they're disqualified it doesn't show up on their license during any application process..

Since places that require photo ID take a xerox of the front of the license, this number wouldn't be kept by an employer and they couldn't check up on your status.

Good idea, but don't make it able to opt out on the license

EVERYBODY gets a number, regardless of their status. And you have to call that number to check the status.

This way, if they're disqualified it doesn't show up on their license during any application process..

Since places that require photo ID take a xerox of the front of the license, this number wouldn't be kept by an employer and they couldn't check up on your status.

Nope, if you don't make it so you can opt-out, and you give everyone a number, the only people whose numbers will be called in will be firearm owners. Oh, I'm sure there will be some teeny-tiny percentage of people who get a background check and then for some reason don't follow through with the sale, but the vast majority of FOID numbers being called in for a status check will be future or present firearm owners. This negates anonymous firearm ownership, which I don't hold as acceptable.

No, Opt-out makes it so that just because there is no FOID number on a license does not mean that you are a criminal or insane. It could mean that you simply opted out, as no doubt many people would.

Lack of an FOID number is thus meaningless.

Groups like GOA could use robo caller to call couple million FIOD# checks at random adding some "noise" to the data.

Of course we already have defacto registration (at least of owners) via NICS system.

Any ID that can't be verified won't last longer than the first time a seller goes to court because it becomes his words/felons word on if the FOID was checked.

I won't support any system that ultimately could land me in court because I can't prove I followed the law.
I also can't in good faith support a system that can be circumvented by a felon "smart" enough to "lose" their FOID and then keep buying firearms with it.

We have physical driver's licenses but nobody would think that is enough and remove the computer network that allows a LEO to call it in.
We have physical license plates but we still have system that allows LEO to call it in.

Groups like GOA could use robo caller to call couple million FIOD# checks at random adding some "noise" to the data.

I am not going to trust the system to maintain firearm ownership anonymity based on the altruism of the citizenry. Besides, such attempts would likely be detected and screened out by the government.

Of course we already have defacto registration (at least of owners) via NICS system.

But the current system gives all firearm owners plausible deniability. Since any firearm owner could have sold his firearms privately, just because you are in the database of past NICS checks does not mean you still own firearms.

Any ID that can't be verified won't last longer than the first time a seller goes to court because it becomes his words/felons word on if the FOID was checked.

I won't support any system that ultimately could land me in court because I can't prove I followed the law.

Then simply make a photocopy or scan of the buyers FOID. There's your proof.

I also can't in good faith support a system that can be circumvented by a felon "smart" enough to "lose" their FOID and then keep buying firearms with it.

If your FOID is your drivers' license or your state-issued ID, it will only be valid for a few years before it expires.

So worst case, a person who's convicted of a felony or is found to be crazy who is smart enough to hide their old ID can buy firearms with it for a few years.

Yes, it's a potential loophole. But I would guess the number of crimes committed by such people would be exceedingly rare. Most gun crime will continue to be committed by people who could legally own firearms up until they snapped or criminals with stolen firearms, which no background check system will identify or stop.

We have physical driver's licenses but nobody would think that is enough and remove the computer network that allows a LEO to call it in.
We have physical license plates but we still have system that allows LEO to call it in.

And we'd have physical FOID numbers that a LEO could call in. Just not for firearm sales.

I guess it is a balancing act. Privacy vs risk of abuse.

You have made me reconsider some points but I am not sure where I stand.

Even if the system has room for abuse anything would be better than now where 100% of private sales have no NICS check.
One point I am 100% sure on is that it HAS TO be 100% opt-in. Either as a separate card or an opt-in on driver's license.

Also there should be no substantial fees that would be infringement on the poor.
For a driver's license add-on I would say no more than $10 added to cost of license to cover NICS check and overhead.
For a separate card I would say no more than $25 for 5 years, w/ $10 renewal.

I believe strongly that excessive fees are a form of infringement.

Even if the system has room for abuse anything would be better than now where 100% of private sales have no NICS check.
One point I am 100% sure on is that it HAS TO be 100% opt-in. Either as a separate card or an opt-in on driver's license.

Why does it have to be opt-in? Opt-out is much better. First of all, most people probably won't bother to opt out. Second of all, it allows people who want no part of the system to have no part in the system, such people who feel that such a background check is an invasion of privacy, or those who are anti-firearm or have no intent of ever owning firearms. Finally, opt-out means you can't tell just because someone does not have an FOID that they are a criminal or insane.


Also there should be no substantial fees that would be infringement on the poor.
For a driver's license add-on I would say no more than $10 added to cost of license to cover NICS check and overhead.
For a separate card I would say no more than $25 for 5 years, w/ $10 renewal.

I believe strongly that excessive fees are a form of infringement.

There should be no extra fee whatsoever for a public safety program. We don't charge use-fees for the police or fire services - they are paid for by taxes because they benefit the public good. Any FOID/NICS system should be the same way.

Why does it have to be opt-in? Opt-out is much better. First of all, most people probably won't bother to opt out. Second of all, it allows people who want no part of the system to have no part in the system, such people who feel that such a background check is an invasion of privacy, or those who are anti-firearm or have no intent of ever owning firearms. Finally, opt-out means you can't tell just because someone does not have an FOID that they are a criminal or insane.

I see no problem with opt-in. If you don't opt-in you can trade firearms w/o an FFL. Most gun enthusiasts will opt-in. I would opt-in tomorrow and you would too. NRA would send newsletters and within a few years 10 million people would be opted in.

Opt out likely means nobody opts out. Why opt out? Unless you are emotionally antigun that even a "gun number" on your ID makes you ill. So it will be defacto discrimination. I know it is difficult for excons to get housing, jobs, opportunities. This will just be a blatant official sign. Even if it isn't official many people will assume no FOID = crazy or felon. Right or wrong we live in a biased society.

Maybe my views are off based but I think any system should be opt-in.


There should be no extra fee whatsoever for a public safety program. We don't charge use-fees for the police or fire services - they are paid for by taxes because they benefit the public good. Any FOID/NICS system should be the same way.

Well I agree. Maybe I should say no more than $10/$25/$10. I would love the idea of no fees/taxes on a right. No fees even for CCW. The reality it probably will have fees. I can accept that (pick your battles) but the fee must be reasonable.

I see no problem with opt-in. If you don't opt-in you can trade firearms w/o an FFL. Most gun enthusiasts will opt-in. I would opt-in tomorrow and you would too. NRA would send newsletters and within a few years 10 million people would be opted in.

The problem with opt-in is only people who own or want to own firearms will opt-in, and thus you've just created government database of all firearm owners.

Opt out likely means nobody opts out. Why opt out? Unless you are emotionally antigun that even a "gun number" on your ID makes you ill. So it will be defacto discrimination. I know it is difficult for excons to get housing, jobs, opportunities. This will just be a blatant official sign. Even if it isn't official many people will assume no FOID = crazy or felon. Right or wrong we live in a biased society.

Yes, by having opt-in being the default, most people will, by default, opt-in. But the fact remains that because anyone can and will opt out for any reason, not having an FOID number does not mean anything negative about the person.

Personally, I suspect that if as part of your paperwork for getting a driver's license or state-issued ID you have to check a box that says, "I do not wish to apply for and be screened through the National Instant Check System for a Firearm Owner ID number" you will get a fair number of people who check that box.

I can buy a gun without a NICS check. Cash and carry.

Your state may not ask the info and use your CCW to process the NICS but an NICS is ALWAYS done when involving a sale with an FFL.

If you buy a firearm from an FFL without an NICS a federal felony (with sentence of 5 to 15) has been committed.

Of course if you are talking about private to private sales then of course no NICS is done. They are never done, CCW has nothing to do with that.

.. CHL / CCW licenses are sufficient for NICS purposes.

(Some states' CCW permits are not, though..)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/010506nevadaffl-openletter.pdf

Learned something new today.

I wonder why it wouldn't be all states or why for a period NV wasn't considered an "alternate to the Brady check".
I mean all states run an NICS check before issuing a permit.

Does an FFL "call in the NV permit". Do they have a phone or automated system to verify if a permit is still valid?
If not I am suprised the feds allow it. If so then that might explain why some states don't qualify.

No phone call is made, period. On the second page of the 4473 below where they normally put the NICS transaction number, they put the TX CHL #, and check 'exempt'.

Ahh, found a pdf of the 4473.. see page 2, question 21.
http://www.titleii.com/pdf/4473.pdf

I lost my CCW. The state issued me a new one.

What happens if a felon "loses" their CCW. Felons sometimes do lie.
He/she now has a card that lets them buy guns bypassing NICS check.

I can see accepting CCW if the seller calls the state Police and they verify it is valid.

Then their is counterfeit issue.
A CCW in VA is simply a piece of paper.
I likely could make a fake with anyones name using photoshop and laser printer. Not that I would.

.. my suspicion would be that it's not if it isn't laminated with a picture and signature.

*eta: Not that I really would worry- actual CHL holders are pretty law abiding, and if a criminal can fake a license, they could probably fake a military ID with completely bogus info. (Since NICS is a negative check, not a positive one.)

Likely for the reason you mention.
I am assuming in TX a CHL/CCW is a laminated photo ID?

If TX has no problem and feds say it meets their standards then that is good enough for me.

What happens if a felon "loses" their CCW. Felons sometimes do lie.
He/she now has a card that lets them buy guns bypassing NICS check.

I would guess CCW permits are only good for a certain amount of time, and then must be renewed. At worst, the felon would be able to buy guns until the permit expired.

Is a piece of paper, with my signature, and the clerk of courts signature, they are good for 5 years. Their is no photograph.

It also has my weight, eye color, DOB, Hair Color, and other identifiable info on it..

It also states clearly on it, that it is not valid, WITHOUT a "Proper photo Id"

I had mine, laminated.

In VA, it does NOT, exempt you from the NICS check, but it does exempt you from "one handgun a month" law.

Also, the fact that I, am a permit holder, is attached to my DMV information, anytime a officer runs any of the vehicles, with my name on the title, the officer is informed that I, am a CHL holder.

The same with my driver's license, if it is run, it officer is told, that I have a CHP.

Here is a photo, of an example...

A 4473 is completed for records but the NICS call to the FBI is waived. This is only when I use a FFL. Private sale are that, private.

I stand corrected. I learn something new everyday.

In Georgia, a CCW permit is sufficient for buying firearms without a NICS check, but not in Alabama. I think Georgia's CCW permit process is more vigorous, with, for example, fingerprinting being required, which is not in Alabama.

And charge 10 bucks for it.x(

but you have not commented on it.

chirp chirp chirp.

Even in a private transfer of a curio or relic long gun, it is still illegal for ANYONE to provide a firearm to a person who is prohibited from buying it.

The problem is there is no mechanism by which a private person can check the buyer against the National Instant Check System. Even a C&R FFL holder (like me) cannot access NICS.

Not your first time around, is it?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=228323&mesg_id=228496




Gun shows seem to be doing just fine without your advice. Why would they care about improving their image?




Why? Again with the typecasting and forced teaming:

http://ar.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070226103236AAa422K



Just consider the type of people who usually use these techniques, and judge accordingly

ANY GUN manufactured before 1968 has no trace data, except for what records the manufacturer, if still in business, might have. I have one gun in my collection was built in the Tower of London in 1772. It still works and the US governemnt didn't even exist. Bet the ATF can't trace it either. Bet Federal law doesn't even regulate it as a firearm!

The only way a gun built before 1968 would ever show up on a 4473, would be if it were traded or sold to an FFL and he subsequently sold it. When a licensee buys a gun he must enter it into the bound book inventory the law requires him to keep. When he sells the gun, to anyone other than another licensee, the 4473 is required. If he sells to another licensee, he gets a signed copy of the other licensees FFL for his file.

If an FFL sells it, there is a 4473 unless he has a burning ambition to go to jail. When the ATF does its audit on a licensee the go through the inventory in the bound book and the guns on hand. They better match 100%

The same laws apply to FFL at guns shows that apply anywhere else.

If you sell your grandfather's squirrel gun in a yard sale to someone who gives you no reason to believe they are a disqualified buyer you have broken no Federal law.

Don't believe everyone who has told you this eleventy bazillion times? Try looking here.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

The ATF has a really nifty website we pay for. There is a lot of useful info there and you won't have to make up stuff to post, like unlicensed dealers. Try and search their site for the definition, get back to me when you find it. Here is a relevant portion of the FAQ. Note they even quote the specific Title, Chapter, and paragraph of the US Code that addresses the point.


(C10) May a person obtain a dealer's license to engage in business only at gun shows?

No. A license may only be issued for a permanent premises at which the license applicant intends to do business. A person having such license may conduct business at gun shows located in the State in which the licensed premises is located and sell and deliver curio or relic firearms to other licensees at any location.

<18 U.S.C. 923(a) and (j)>


B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30>

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30>

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)>

The law requires anyone who sells guns as a business or in interstate commerce to have a license. The murkiness in the regulation is the definition of "in the business."

If you inherit a closet full of old guns you know nothing about and have no interest in and you peddle them in a yard sale are you a dealer? If you rent a table at a gun show instead, on the assumption there will be more potential buyers, does that make you a dealer? Can you take that closet full of guns across the state line and sell them? (Only if you sell them to a licensee, aka FFL.)

The ATF talks in terms of licensees and non-licensees for a reason. Those terms are defined. "Unlicensed dealer" is not.

Which this guy would not have passed.

If you conducted a gunbroker auction and the buyer was in-state no NICS check would be required. Just meet up with the guy and exchange cash for goods.

Again, straight from the horse's mouth on the ATF website...............

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

<18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)>

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

<18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30>

(emphasis added)

It never ceases to amaze me that with all the ATF info publishes just a mouse click or two away why folks are so confused about what the Feds allow or don't. As longer as the seller does not know or have reason to believe the purchaser is a prohibited person NO LAW IS BROKEN!

You could more easily check out the classified ads in a local newspaper.

For intra-state sales, you can mail it to your buyer.

I see sellers all the time refusing to sell to California buyers. You could easily stipulate the buyer must be in your state.

But again, face-to-face sales through the newspaper, as you said, are quite common also.

his mental stability, his choice of gun alone almost makes him a nutcase. Is it possible it's the only weapon he had? Did his choice of firearm have some significance to him? We all have to admit, it's not your normal choice for a gunfight.

or lived with him mentioned he had this rifle and a 30-30 rifle. Didn't say make or model.

After his conviction and due to NICS it was likely his only access to a firearm.

I can't see someone going to a gunshow and paying EXTRA for an ancient 100 year old .22 rifle (which has collectible value) when for less money he could have got a semi-auto handgun.

The "choice" of weapon (or lack their of) seems to indicate at least to me that this was his only weapon.

that seems to be the only logical choice, it was his only weapon.

The NICS system (instant background check) a gun control measure supported by most gun owners may have prevented him from obtaining more lethal weaponry.


One guess on the organization who was a major force lobbying for NICS (to replace the manual "brady check" which required 5 day waiting period).

if he tried to buy a firearm and was turned down, of course we don't know if that happened. Where the system fails is the thousands of weapons changing hands without background checks.

Is in all the HUNDREDS of thousands who have failed the Brady and NICs checks since their inception. The attempt to purchase a firearm by a prohibited person is a Federal felony. So they fail, what happens, odds are absolutely NOTHING!

Even as far back as 1996, the GAO released a study that pointed out there were only 7 prosecutions under Brady after three years. It was such an embarrassment, that the Attorney General explained to a Congressional subcommittee that "........the Brady Law was only symbolic, it was neither designed nor intended to increase the annual number of federal prosecutions."

Now think about this, if you are a crook and try to buy a gun and the system catches you, your chance of being arrested for it are less than 7 out 1.2 million. There were only 3 convictions, so the odds of going to jail for trying to buy a gun illegally are insignificant that you are more likely to be struck by lightning at the North Pole or win the Powerball lottery and a date with the supermodel of your choice on the same weekend.

http://www.gao.gov/AIndexFY96/abstracts/gg96022.htm

If a criminal goes to a gun store and fails the NICS all that will happen is the he will know the database has him listed. Odds are he knew he was crook before he walked in. Nothing will change when he walks out.

I see we are facing a shortage of enforcement of current laws as opposed to a need for new ones

He could have read any local Penny Saver classified ads and bought any firearm he wished from a private seller.

I strongly suspect he was making a statement with his choice of weapon.

Either the weapon had personal meaning to him (he was born in 1920 or so - it could have been his first firearm), or he was trying to make a statement to anti-gun folks that you don't need an assault rifle to go on a shooting spree.

that he had possessed for decades, that's logically what he'd use, because that's what he'd be familiar with.

It may be arguable that a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution or a Subaru WRX makes a slightly better getaway vehicle than a Honda Civic does, but if a criminal wants to pull off a bank robbery and owns a Civic, he'll use the Civic.

It's like ebay craigslist for guns. I can only imagine what kind of laws are being broken there.

who performs the NICS background check and fills out the tracing paperwork just like any other gun sale from a dealer. The usual fee for an FFL to perform the transfer is $25 or so.

If you investigated before you spoke, then.. oh wait.. forget it.

Per gunbroker.com

By Federal Law, firearms can only be shipped to an FFL Holder. If you do not have an FFL, you must make arrangements with an FFL Holder in your state to handle the transfer. We maintain a list of FFL Holders who are willing to handle transfers for qualified buyers. Please contact an FFL Holder before placing a bid to make sure you qualify.

You buy on gunbroker the seller ships to an FFL.
The FFL does background check and give you the firearm.

Unless your buyer is in-state. Then you can just meet up with him and exchange cash for goods, like any private gun sale.

OMG! I just went to gunbroker.com!!!1 It's like ebay craigslist for guns. I can only imagine what kind of laws are being broken there.

Gunbroker is awesome. Want some more head explosion? Check out www.gunsamerica.com. Another great firearm site. eBay and Craig's List don't allow firearm listings unfortunately. So others have popped up to fill the void.

Did you know that your local newspaper classified ads also sells firearms? Look under Sporting Goods. Firearms have been sold there between individuals for a couple of hundred years or so.

Assuming he didn't already own it--which I haven't seen confirmation on--he could have gotten it from a friend/relative, bought it in a private sale, stolen it, or gotten it any place private property is transferred, like an estate sale or something. Since I'm assuming this doesn't have a serial number, I don't think it could have gone through an actual professional dealer, and no illegal reseller would bother with something so old, so those are out. A collector of antique firearms would be a possibility too.

pump 16 gauge today called a Ranger for 150 dollars today. It looked great, the age really made it shine. I have no idea who made it though.

Sears sold Ranger shotguns during the 1930s, though it halted sales during World War II. Was replaced after the war by the J.C. Higgins brand. In the 60's Sears used the Ted Williams brand until they quit selling guns altogether.

Yes, I am that old.

Maybe a millisecond slower to rapid fire than my semi-auto .22's, maybe.

David

My father had an extensive gun collection when he died.

My mother had a collector friend of his (who was also a legit dealer) come in and buy his reloading stuff and most of the collectables.

Before she could have another person by to get the rest, one of my sister's skinhead friends broke in and stole them. He was reasonably familiar with the house and either had found the gun case key, or my sister had shown him where it was. Everything was taken including a couple of old guns that the collector had passed over.

We recovered most of the jewelry and other extras this kid took as well, but the guns diappeared. If Dad hadn't been dead already, it would have killed him. He'd always been as responsible as possible with them.

It's one reason that despite growing up with guns and being comfortable with dealing with one, I am a little ambivalent about them.

That he managed to kill anyone with that relic. .22lr is not a round that you think of as particularly deadly.

If reporting is correct I read there were 3 spent 22 shell casing & 10 rounds still in the rifle. According to this article the short held 15 rounds the long 12. I have no clue if you could chamber a round then load one more ala a semiauto pistol.

http://books.google.com/books?id=T-Irz4qHwsQC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=winchester+1906+rifle&source=bl&ots=-YbSZDh6I9&sig=wNiHKt_k8vaY42SFygX5abnc3Ig&hl=en&ei=BTkzStWpA8LBtwfK9cinCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA63,M1

It's real easy to "+1" the firearm. Just rack the slide/lever and put another round in the tube. You can top off the magazines without emptying them, too.

Edit: And .22 Short would be even more unbelievable. Most people mock .22lr for being anemic, and .22 short is even worse. Not my cartridge of choice for anything meaner than cardboard.

In a rifle are quieter than a spring piston pellet gun and deliver a lot more wallop. They work great for shooting rats around a corn crib without startling the laying hens. This was my great-uncle's Remington Model 12C. He got it new in 1921. No telling how many hogs a .22 short from that rifle put in the smokehouse. He put me to the rat-shooting chore when I was 8. He left it to me, it still shoots nice.

I know more about modern handguns than I do about rifles - especially the older ones. First time I saw a tube 22 was last year at a target shoot where my club teaches youngsters safe air gun & 22 handgun/rifle shooting.

Because it's so common, inexpensive, and relatively quiet to shoot.

...get that in their head that just because a .22lr is so small that it must also not have more power than a pellet. It's probably the worst possible round to get shot in the head with, because it has the power to enter, but not to leave; so it just starts bouncing around in the skull, shreading the brain. As far as getting shot in the chest with, no it doesn't have the stopping power, but a person would bleed out if they don't get medical attention. It's not a bb, it's not a pellet, it's a bullet.

And it's deadly up to a mile.

A .22 will kill you just as dead as a .44 Magnum.

Not to say a .44 isn't way more powerful than a .22, just saying that you should respect all firearms.

farmer somewhere...There are millions of rifles like this around.They are collectors items - they are pretty expensive, and you can buy many better, newer rifles for what you will pay for one these days. I believe he already had it.

I am thinking that he deliberately chose it because it is light, easy to conceal under a long coat and holds 12-14 rounds of .22LR, but is not a powerful or very loud.
It is a rifle that could be used to shoot a few people in a crowd quickly but cannot be re-loaded quickly.

I believe he was on a suicide mission, looking for maximum publicity on his way out.

mark

His was probably from the mid-1930s.

Most of those old pump rifles don't have a disconnector, so if you hold the trigger down you can shoot rounds as fast as you can work the pump.

qualifies as a C&R too.


Just goes to show you that ANY gun in the hands of an evil man he can do evil things with... doesn't matter if it has a shoulder thing that goes up or not.

:scared:

That's all I could think of... shoulder things!

:-)

...that if this guy had not been a racist and a nazi, and had done this at a mall or a school, he wouldn't have gotten any media time from the anti-gun side, specifically because the firearm he used is "politically correct". The only kind of gun crime that seems to get them going is handgun crime or "assault weapon" crime, but if someone uses a good ol'fashion double barrel or bolt-action rifle, they look the other way. Maybe they think victims are somehow "more dead" if the gun used was "evil looking". Take a good look at that rifle he used. When the anti-gun side says you can keep "some guns", that's the kind of gun they have in mind.

I've never seen a firearm with no serial number. Even my 1904 S&W is serialized.

but it wasn't required. Most didn't.

I made them myself for my own personal use. Serial numbers are not required for them.

In fact, it is "matching" where the receiver/stock has one number, and the barrel assembly. has the other. I think this is because the rifle is take-down, much like the one used in the shooting. The Standard Catalog of Firearms, 5th Ed. (Published by Gun List) describes the Model 1906 thusly:

"For the first two years the gun was chambered for the .22 Short cartridge only. In 1908 the rifle was modified to shoot .22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle cartridges interchangeably. This modification insured the Model 1906's success, and between 1906 and 1932 about 800,000 were sold. All Model 1906s were of the takedown variety. The Model 1906 is available in three import variations:

1. .22 Short Only, 20-round barrel, straight-grip gum wood stock and smooth slide handle. These were built from serial number 1 to around 113000.

2. Standard Model 1906, 20" round barrel, straight-grip gum wood stock with 12 groove slide handle. Serial numbered from 113000 to 852000.

3. Model 1906 Expert, 20" round barrel, pistol grip gum wood stock with fluted smooth slide handle. Expert was available from 19l8 to 1924 and was offered in three different finishes regular blued finish, half nickel (receiver, guard, and bolt), and full nickel (receiver, guard, bolt, and barrel nickeled.)"

The "groove slide handle" and "fluted smooth slide handle" would seem to distinguish the two latter models listed above.

The ONLY markings on it is:

"Ithaca Gun Co", and ".45 ACP"

This gun, was purchased, from the Sheriff's office, last year.

The magazines have more markings than the gun.