I'm just sayin....

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/gov_corzine_signs_new_law_limi.html#more New Jersey governor signs one gun-a-month bill.

Any more than making it illegal to buy cold medicine at two different pharmacies stops meth production.

NOW!!!!

In the war of "all guns, all the time", it's a tiny dent in the NRA's accomplishments, which is fine with me.

Do you think that limiting law abiding firearms purchases to one gun a month is going to have any effect on gun crime?

People trying to get around it will need more accomplices, for one thing. More weak points where any arrest could turn up a ring of dozens of people or more, involved in strawman purchases and re-sales.

where the law clearly states that they have to approve or decline my application in 30 days. It doesn't matter they take their dear sweet time and if you call and complain they just "lose" your paperwork so you start all over. It's a bunch of feel good bullshit that won't do anything to stop the violence on the streets. It just gives ignorant people a reason the pat themselves on the back.

He just lost my vote. Now I can feel good too!

First off, your complaint has nothing to do with the one-per-month issue.
Second, if the state screwed around and broke the law issuing your permit, find a lawyer.

gun a month based on the current system. I could go to Newark or Trenton and buy as many guns as I could afford on the street though. This new law is nothing more than a dog and pony show and won't do anything to stop gun violence. It will only give the system another reason to slow down the purchase of guns by law abiding citizens.

How much you are getting fucked over now , has little to do with just how little extra they will fuck you over later . But , I bet it wont be much at all .

to the suggestion that a one-gun-a-month rule may reduce straw purchases, i.e. firearms trafficking?

Oops. That was already said. ;)

Might make straw purchases harder.

Gosh, who'd 'a thunk that??

Would I be right to think that this is precisely what it is meant to do?

Just imagine if every state in the US enacted legislation to make straw purchases harder ... why, it might even be harder to traffic firearms into New Jersey from someplace else.

Now, if only anybody cared about firearms being trafficked from one of those bucolic, peaceful states into nasty New Jersey, eh?

I'll bet you think that when I said "Why are you here?" it wasn't a private joke between me and the person I was speaking to.

That, if so, would be because you don't know what you're talking about. But you figured you'd say it anyway.

Now in some circles, issuing forth negative, insulting commentary about someone based only on one's own ignorance would be regarded as remarkably unpleasant indeed.

unpleasant in doing so. I understand that you're trying to make a chum here in the gungeon--I'm merely noting how your sole mode of expression is nastiness, even when you're trying to agree with someone.

Hope that settles the matter.

and still you persist in your foolish course of action.

You knew it this time, if you didn't the first: my subject line was a JOKE. The person to whom it was addressed knew exactly what it was, and why I said it.

It wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. It was JOKING, about something you know nothing about. It was not "nastiness", and your continued claim that it was only makes you look ever more stupid and unpleasant. You and only you.

I believe my point is demonstrated.

If your point was to demonstrate that you stalk me around the forum issuing negative personal commentary and nothing else.

There was content in the post of mine that you chose to misinterpret. Feel free to address it.

Oh wait, it was me, or was it Dave or maybe it was one of half a dozen other people here.

Ahaha who am I kidding... I should be doing other things right now. Shit.


I could see needing a possible exception to this, like 'Hey, I'm in the IPSC competition next week, and I need a .45 and a .40, like NOW' and having some process for that, but it should bring extra special scrutiny. But even without it, I think this was a good move.

AtheistCrusader was trying to go on a DU diet. Not spend so much time here when he should be doing something productive.

I volunteered to "speak sharply" to him if I saw him going off his diet.

So I did.

Like I said. Private joke. Nothing that any of the loudmouths who jumped up and chimed in knew anything about. Sound and fury, signifying stupidity.

Par for the course.

It strikes me this is almost exclusively to placate those folks who don't see why *anyone* would be so silly as to own a firearm, so the certainly can't imagine why anyone would should be allowed to purchase more than one in a month. And since they can't imagine, it, it should be made illegal.

It's to prevent people from making an illicit habit of buying multiple firearms for resale, without the controls imposed by an FFL, to the grey or black market. At the very least, it reduces the opportunity, and the profit motive to attempt to do so, or it compounds the risk of getting caught.

Why can't we support measures like this? Fewer guns in the hands of criminals means fewer incidence of firearms in the headlines.

handgun purchases. I understand that this theoretically is intended to combat straw purchases, but if New Jersey isn't able to control straw purchases with its existing laws, I am no overyly confident that this will accomplish anything of worth.

That's why I think this is primarily to placate those folks who don't think people should be able to buy *any* guns.

In Washington State, we went ahead and manually passed laws that would sanction abortion just like it is currently sanctioned under Roe Vs. Wade, with the understanding that RvW could 'go away' by being overturned.


If this existing process NJ has is burdensome, expensive to the state, and with poor results/customer satisfaction, putting this in place may allow the repeal of the broken system, without interruption in protection.

Just speculating. I can think of other reasons why you might want to add this on top of the existing legislation.

Can you quote her, please?

There ya go.

Now all you have to do is demonstrate that

it's a tiny dent in the NRA's accomplishments, which is fine with me.

supports this conclusion:

So your willing to trample the Second Amendment to punish the NRA?


... does he not comprehend what he reads, will he not tell the truth about what he reads; does he not comprehend what he reads, will he not tell the truth about what he reads; does he not comprehend what he reads, will he not tell the truth about what he reads; does he not comprehend what he reads, will he not tell the truth about what he reads; does he not comprehend what he reads, will he not tell the truth about whay he reads; ...




Here's a clue.

My neighbour may have accomplished the destruction of my fence, and if I rebuild it, that will put a dent in their accomplishments. But I won't be rebuilding it to punish my neighbour. I'll be rebuilding it to remedy the destruction wrought.

Think you can figure that out?

Think you can retract your false allegation?



typo fixed

I mean, really? No matter what I or anyone else posts, you will find a way to try to make it look like something was said that was not, or that meaning was implied when it was not, or you will just be plain obtuse about it. Do you have a point or are your cats sleeping and you need something to do?

and I only have one cat now. Thanks for the reminder. Co-vivant misses his Eddie desperately.


you will find a way to try to make it look like something was said that was not, or that meaning was implied when it was not

You seem to have me confused with yourself and a couple of dozen other people.

but it was expected and you did not fail to deliver.

Sounds like a personal vendetta to me.

Yeah, you may not be far off.

I might not call your behaviour in this instance a "personal vendetta", though. More just a vendetta against the truth.

Since the bad guys were already getting New Jersey Firearms ID cards (a photo/fingerprint card aquired at the local police state/state trooper barracks) and filling out the one-per-gun permit paperwork.

But hey, at least they did *something*.

It's only going to cut sales tax revenues and won't do a thing to improve public safety.

who will get lots of good press from the media and groups such as the Brady Campaign.

Crime will be unaffected and he knows it.



But he has a big smile plastered all over his face, as do his supporters. He's a hero in many voter's mind, and that's all that counts.

It's always easy to pass laws that effect only honest citizens. It costs little and accomplishes nothing.

But taking guns away from the criminal element in our society or treating drug gangs as terrorists (which they are) requires cops on the street and legal expenses and prisons. Or treating the problems that plague our society and are often root causes of violence (education, meaningful well paying jobs, racism) are extremely hard to address.


It's like putting makeup on a melanoma. You can smile and say, "I've done something to overcome the problem."



edited to add melanoma image.

Do "honest citizens" traffic firearms?

The law will affect firearms traffickers.

So I guess, if it ONLY affects "honest citizens", "honest citizens" are firearms traffickers.

Huh.

How the hell it actually does affect "honest citizens" has always been beyond me.

Oh, I know. Somebody will show up with the tale of how they want to buy his-n-hers Glocks for the silver wedding anniversary and they left it too late to get both of them before the big date ...



typo fixed

and just before I retired, I sold five handguns to a co-worker and friend. He had a concealed carry permit and was interested in increasing his firearm collection at the same time I was interested in decreasing mine. (He was much younger than I am and I predict by the time he reaches my age, his firearm collection will be quite extensive.)

I haven't taken the time to see if the New Jersey law affects private sales. It's possible that my friend could still have bought the five firearms from me under the new law. Since my friend tended to shoot the handguns he bought and none of the firearms I sold were unusual or extremely valuable, I'm not sure that the sale would have qualified under the collector exemption.

And no, "honest citizens" are not gun traffickers. Nor are bank robbers or cat burglars "honest citizens". I define an honest citizen as a person who obeys the law. A gun trafficker is a person who willingly purchases weapons to resell them to another individual knowing that they will be sold on the black market.

Twenty years or thirty years in prison sounds about right for such a crime.

There are people who buy gun collections

Maybe NJ needs what we have: a special licence for "collectors". ;)

Totally different purposes - here, it is to enable someone to acquire and possess restricted weapons - but it would do the trick.

Such sales would almost always be private, would they not? Or by auction maybe. Oh, oops, my next question was about to be ...

I haven't taken the time to see if the New Jersey law affects private sales.

Oh, well, duh -- I wasn't paying attention at all:

I'm not sure that the sale would have qualified under the collector exemption.

I guess whatever that now is, it might be reworked to handle private purchases of collections.

But then, there will always be the private purchase of two handguns from a single vendor ...


A gun trafficker is a person who willingly purchases weapons to resell them to another individual knowing that they will be sold on the black market.

Well, more simply, a person who purchases weapons to sell them on the black market.

http://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases09/pr20090224b.html

Man Pleads Guilty to Gun Charges for Trafficking Handguns, Assault Rifles & Shotguns Bought in Pennsylvania
Faces prison as a result of investigation by New Jersey State Police & ATF

... The New Jersey State Police began investigating Murray in August 2008 after receiving information that he was selling guns in New Jersey that he purchased in Pennsylvania. The State Police enlisted the aid of the ATF and worked cooperatively with its agents. As part of the investigation, an undercover State Police detective arranged to purchase guns from Murray on four occasions.

On Sept. 19, 2008, Murray sold a .32-caliber handgun for $400 in Kearny. Murray made the other gun sales from the auto repair shop where he worked as a tow truck driver in Chatham, Glenn’s Automotive and Towing. On October 1, 2008, Murray sold the detective a sawed-off shotgun, a handgun, hollow point bullets and shotgun shells for $1,150. On October 8, 2008, Murray sold the detective an AK 47 assault rifle, a sawed-off shotgun, a handgun, high capacity magazines loaded for both the AK 47 and the handgun, and shotgun shells for $1,650.

On October 16, 2008, troopers and ATF agents arrested Murray at his place of employment, after he delivered to the detective an AK 47 assault rifle, two handguns, and a bag of ammunition, which he had agreed to sell for $2,500.

Yeah, I know. It wasn't a real AK47.

Seems he was a NJ resident. Any idea how he would have been able to buy these in PA? From a straw purchaser there, maybe ...


Just for info:

www.guncontrol.ca/English/Home/Law/ImplementationIssues.pdf

It is notable that 10% of the guns recovered at the border are carried by truckers. Easily concealed handguns can be purchased for $50 to $100 in the U.S. and sold here for over $1000 or more. Most are being traced back to states such as Ohio and Florida with lax gun control laws. ...

... A homicide squad in Quebec had a suspect in the murder of a police officer under surveillance and subsequently arrested him and conducted a search. They seized a firearm and the National Weapons Enforcement Support Team (NWEST) traced the firearm back to Tennessee. The gun belonged to a truck driver who traveled extensively to Canada and usually brought several guns with him to sell in Canada.

html fixed

firearm with the intent to sell it on the black market.

The truck driver who sold the weapon that resulted in the murder of the police office in Quebec should be charged as an accomplice in the crime.

I'm not sure about the guy in New Jersey. Perhaps he lived in Pennsylvania, but worked in New Jersey.

I wonder what his punishment will be.

It's expensive to track down gun traffickers, but if enough are caught and the punishment is severe enough, it should discourage the practice of selling a firearm illegally for a couple of hundred dollars profit. If nothing else, it would elevate the cost of the illegal weapons so high that few criminals could afford to buy one.

(assuming you don't piss off the wrong political boss) and every purchaser already has to be strained through a sieve, just what, exactly, do you think this bill will do, other than increase the workload for the bureaucrats that currently process the applications by reducing batch submittals? Seriously?

An "application" is required for every purchase? Or every purchaser?

One piece of paper per firearm.

Every purchaser is photographed and fingerprinted and giving an ID card from same LEO.

The card must be renewed regularly.

Too bad we didn't get in front of the bus and set up more agreeable rules/process by participating, huh?

And they expire rather quickly after being issued (30, 60, or 90 days, I don't recall), meaning if you submit multiple applications for purchase of different guns, and they are all approved on the same day 6 months later, this "one gun a month" thing will make some of those approvals unusable. Which may, of course, be the point.

I wonder whether someone here didn't come close - if a result of Heller is that any of NJ's existing rules are struck down, this one, which is very clearly tailored to combat trafficking, would more likely survive. ?

If anything, it would seem that combining the one-gun-a-month rule with the can't-purchase-a-gun-without-permits-that-we-process-in-batches rule AND the permits-expire-fast rule would be more likely to get something struck down under the Heller precedent than any of those rules taken singly.

New Jersey Guns Example
Applying for firearm permits in New Jersey

1. Call the Firearms Permitting Department of your local police department to find out
the day and times they are open to process permit applications. Many municipalities
only have part time staff for this department and may not be open everyday. For
instance in my town, the firearms permitting department is only open on Wednesday
nights. So call first so you don't waste any time.

2. There are two types of purchase permits in New Jersey. The first is the Firearms ID
card and the second is a Pistol Permit. You will need to apply for both if this is your
first time buying a firearm. The Firearms ID card is used in two ways. First it allows
you to purchase any long gun (rifle/shotgun). Second it has an SBI number on it which
is required for your NIC check at the time you purchase a pistol. You must have the
FID card even if you don't plan on buying a long gun.

continues here-
www.njguns.com/permit.htm

not the official state website but a good overview of process

Bye bye bill of rights...

Xela

Disallowing bulk purchases of firearms is a far cry from confiscation.

I'm a complete firearms enthusiast, but this measure doesn't scare me at all. If it dries up some of the grey and black market of firearms in this country, stonking great.

There's something inherently disconcerting about restricting one's rights...bit by bit.

Be it Cheney claiming issues of national security, or the anti's claiming social welfare.

Xela

I have never bought 12 guns in a year but I have bought 2 guns in a month before.

1 gun per month = 12 guns per year.

Next thing you know, they'll start saying no-one needs to buy 12 guns in a year....

If you're buying more than 12 guns a year, you're either a collector or a dealer, and we have licenses for that. But if you're trying to buy two or three guns at once, you're just a customer.



But that probably makes too much sense.

...used in crimes.

Time to dig through the internets again.

Novel idea, I know. Takes effort ...