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Best article on open carry debate. From MSNBC, no less

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Jackson1999 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 08:56 AM
Original message
Best article on open carry debate. From MSNBC, no less
Best article I've read on the topic. Very balanced without a lot of emotive cliches. It covers too many angles to snip. It should be required reading for all of the talking heads over at MSNBC.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32492783/ns/us_news-life/

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yost69 Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great article. This quote pretty much sums up my opinion on the whole thing.
A 'very mixed message'

“I absolutely believe open carry should be legal anywhere that a citizen can legally be,” he explained. “Having said that, one of the things that I find a little bit less than perfect about the recent situation is not the fact that citizens were open-carrying, but rather that they were there as a form of open conduct to disagree with a political position that the president has taken, whether it’s about health care or the economy.” Doing so with a gun strapped on sends a “very mixed message,” said Pierce.
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Jackson1999 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. agreed...
they are not doing the open carry cause any good. They should stick to the picnics and other organized opencarry protests
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. "other organized opencarry protests"

So I'll ask once again.

What in the fuck are they PROTESTING? The fact that nobody is harassing them as they prance around with all their little shiny objects plastered about their persons?

Wah, we want attention, come and give us attention ...
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's not a mixed message at all.
It's not mixed message at all. The message is very clear. The message is: I'm saber rattling and about to use deadly force.

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Agreed.
Very provocative, and all it's going to take is one moron to get into an altercation, and we'll probably see the end of open carry.
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burrfoot Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Saber rattling
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 11:56 AM by burrfoot
definitely, but I'm not sure I think that any of them are about to step across the line into actually using them.
I agree that that's the message they're trying to send, though.
Whether they mean it to be or not, it's intimidating; and what's more significant at this moment (IMO) is that it's distracting loads of people from a topic that needs major attention- how to reform health care in an actually useful way.

I'm hopeful that we (the societal "we," that is) move past these idiots (again, IMO) and get the attention back where it needs to be.

FWIW, I'm a gun owner and CCW holder, and I think these jackasses are being fucking stupid.
That said, they're within their rights, and they didn't even actually "attend" a meeting- they protested it.
Somebody has a great sig line with a pic of Obama and text along the lines of "Everybody chill the fuck out- I got this."
I think the same can be said of the secret service.

As AC mentioned, the biggest concern I see with this isn't that they'll direct any violence toward the president- it's that some jackass will get in argument and pull their gun (or, god forbid, actually shoot it); and all pro-2amnd. folks will be set back by it.


edited with that final thought
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I agree.
As AC mentioned, the biggest concern I see with this isn't that they'll direct any violence toward the president- it's that some jackass will get in argument and pull their gun (or, god forbid, actually shoot it); and all pro-2amnd. folks will be set back by it.

I agree. I also think it's pathetic that these people think that NOW is the time for armed protest.

I mean, shit, what about torture, suspension of habeus corpus, pervasive domestic surveillance, and extraordinary rendition? Nooooo....pull out the guns for public health care. Ridiculous.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. gosh amighty

I mean, shit, what about torture, suspension of habeus corpus, pervasive domestic surveillance, and extraordinary rendition? Nooooo....pull out the guns for public health care. Ridiculous.

I do believe this is just what a series of people have asked here in this very place for night on a decade now ...

Yup. Water that tree of liberty. The very minute somebody tries to give you accessible health care.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I think that is a non issue.
As AC mentioned, the biggest concern I see with this isn't that they'll direct any violence toward the president- it's that some jackass will get in argument and pull their gun (or, god forbid, actually shoot it); and all pro-2amnd. folks will be set back by it.

That is the argument used by antis about ALL GUNOWNERS in all instances. There is nothing to prevent a concealed carry holder from resolving issues by blasting people. There is nothing to prevent a gunowner from "resolving" the issue of his son back talking by emptying a magazine in his chest. By that logic nobody should have firearms ever. Exactly the goal of groups like the VPC and Joyce foundation.

The intent of the protesters was to get a false arrest. I have checked out gun forms and open carry forums and everyone was convinced Obama (or more correctly an agent working for him) would operate outside the law and arrest these people for a 'non crime'. At which point it would be nonstop media frenzy. The arrest, the guy in jail, he bail hearing, the dismissal of charges, a cop or politician saying something stupid, the guy retaining counsel, the counter suit for civil rights violations, etc.

They wanted an issue. The secret service didn't play ball and neither did the Administration. Hell they even stated they were operating within the law. Potential landmine diffused.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. Good article, as you say balanced...
I live in Florida where open carry in urban areas is not allowed. The only advantage I can see to open carry is that it would allow an individual to carry a full sized weapon without having to worry about concealing it. If I chose, I can carry a 1911 Colt .45 concealed without problem, but it is more of a pain in the ass than open carry, especially in the Florida heat.

I should add that I oppose the concept of parading around outside a political meeting when opening carrying a firearm. It obvious that the object of such behavior is to attract attention. Self defense is not the issue. The people who have open carried in this situation have attracted attention, mostly negative, and it has not helped responsible gun owners.


Concealed carry: (Of course the shirt has to over the weapon.)



or open carry:




Excerpts from another good article discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the two methods of carry:

CONCEALED CARRY

The most prominent reason given by proponents of carrying concealed is the element of surprise. There are many hypothetical situations which have been posed to prove this point but they all boil down to the CRIMINAL not being aware of the ARMED CITIZEN as anymore of a threat than the UNARMED CITIZEN. The result is that the ARMED CITIZEN may reserve the option to use deadly force until the situation is favorable or not, should the threat cease.

What are the negatives associated with this logic and why is it not perfect in all situations? Well, one must first assume they will not be the sole primary target but rather a third party or in a group setting. The element of surprise is quickly rendered null once you are at knife or gunpoint with nothing to distract your attacker. Assuming the attacker becomes distracted sufficiently enough to attempt a weapon draw the victim must consider the risk and added time needed to draw from a concealed location. If all factors are not in the victim’s favor then the attacker is likely to win as his weapon was already in the ready position.

****snip***

THE CASE FOR OPEN CARRY

A sign, be it text, picture, or symbol, is something visual which communicates a clear message to the observer. The observer can choose to disregard the sign but nonetheless they are forced to consider the message before proceeding. Examples of signs conveying an important message would be "BEWARE OF DOG", "NO SMOKING", "EMERGENCY EXIT", or the more ominous "DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED". Each sign aids the observer in any potential decision making. Of course, the observer may choose to ignore the warning but this choice will be made based on whether the potential reward outweighs the risk.

The case for open carry is simple. I would submit that in much the same way that a sign works, when the ARMED CITIZEN carries his weapon in the open it communicates a clear message to any observer. To an observer who has no intention of causing harm or using illegal force the sign should be meaningless. However, when the CRIMINAL observes this same sign he must reconsider whether the potential reward outweighs the risk. Where the risk was simply being caught or having to physically overpower the UNARMED CITIZEN it now suddenly rises to potentially enduring great pain and death when confronting the ARMED CITIZEN. Do insane or even desperate CRIMINALS exist who would disregard such an obvious sign and follow through with an attack? As with any possibility the answer is YES but even though they exist their actions do not support the opposing view that open carry should be avoided. They can still be potentially stopped by the ARMED CITIZEN once he becomes aware of the CRIMINALS intent to present a lethal threat.

With regard to the element of surprise discussed earlier, open carry actually supersedes the need for surprise. If carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated. Your display of an ability to employ deadly force has avoided the confrontation before it even began, avoided the threat to your life and having to actually use your weapon. As the CRIMINAL moves on to easier prey you will likely never be aware it even happened.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php%3Fid%3D7507%26forum_id%3D6%26highlight%3DOC%2Bvs%2BCC&usg=__uKO3-FDi2P1c-uNn7IpX0lzHFcM=&h=515&w=296&sz=36&hl=en&start=46&um=1&tbnid=4wJ752jsjTl8MM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=75&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1911%2BColt%2B.45%2Bopen%2Bcarry%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D42%26um%3D1
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Jackson1999 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I especiallly like how he leads with a positive example of open carry nt
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. True, and highly unusual for a member of the main stream media...
is there a possibility that the news organizations are finally realizing that lies and exaggerations are not working anymore?

I've often said that if you can't trust the media to get a simple issue like gun control right, how can you trust what they say on complicated issues. I'm not saying that they should in any way support RKBA, but that they should be able to tell the difference between fully auto assault rifles and semi-auto firearms which merely look like assault rifles but are named the misleading term "assault weapons". Fostering misconceptions is a sad way to exercise First Amendment rights.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. I sent an email to his editor. Saying it was very good journalism. n/t
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. No one seems to mind when the black panthers open carry
Quanell X was big on that in houston not too long ago. They'd march around with shotguns and scream things like they don't have to follow "white laws" and so on.

People seemed annoyed at first but when no one got shot they were ignored and eventually stopped.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Do they still do that?
There's actually strong evidence that Washington state's "brandishing" law (RCW 9.41.270) was adopted primarily out of fear of the Panthers openly carrying guns. Of course, that was in 1969...
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yeah, in houston they do every now and then
but it seems to have largely died down. Mr. X made some disparaging comments about the jews, had to apologize and he's been pretty much ignored since then.

I imagine it would be more difficult to be taken seriously at your "the man is holding me down" rallies, when the man happens to be black.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. Isn't it remarkable how the only one being an asshole is Helmke?
Let me state upfront that, while I'm a member of the SAF, I'm getting so tired of Gottlieb's knee-jerk "Dems are by definition anti-RKBA" blather that I'm not going to renew my membership. I also don't care for the GOA due to their association with "militia" types in the past. But notice how all the spokespeople from pro-RKBA organizations are saying "it's legal, it should be legal, but it sure as hell isn't smart and we really don't think protesters should be doing this"?

Then on the other side, we have Helmke--you know, who's always whining about how pro-RKBA groups are unwilling to compromise--utterly failing to acknowledge that those groups aren't being uncompromising, and attributing the NRA's refusal to make a statement to fear of its "rabid membership." Of course, when it sits his argument, the NRA's "rabid membership" will go along with exactly what LaPierre and Cox tell them to, but in this case, it's the other way round. Obviously (to Helmke's mind), it is inconceivable that the NRA leadership is hesitant to make a statement because they suspect their membership may be divided on this issue; there may be some hard-line "which part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" types, but there's no shortage of NRA members who are only interested in hunting and sports shooting, and then there's people like me, who agree with the position that "it's legal but stupid."

But thanks for letting me know you think I'm rabid, Paul; do feel free to go and fuck yourself. At least the NRA has members.
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raimius Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Interesting
The only extreme hardline stance did seem to come from Helmke. Actually, that is not too surprising, given his history and that of his organization's history. We are talking about a group that said they wanted all guns banned (note: They have since softened their stance. I'm guessing because it made them too unpopular.)

I'd agree with the general assessment: legal but not politically smart. It's usually a bad idea to paint your movement as extreme. These people did just that for the OC movement.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. ah yes, let them all be "responsible"

"it's legal, it should be legal, but it sure as hell isn't smart and we really don't think protesters should be doing this"?

If only we could all just not do what we oughtn't do, and then we wouldn't need any laws at all.

Who the hell cares what any of these people say or think? It's legal. It isn't up to them whether someone may do it, or does it.

Meaningless platitudes aare not "compromise", not that I consider compromise to be relevant.


it is inconceivable that the NRA leadership is hesitant to make a statement because they suspect their membership may be divided on this issue

Conflating the NRA, which teaches shooting and collects memberships, with the NRA-ILA, which makes policy statements, are we?
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