My daughter is getting older, now a qestion....

Coming to a 'red letter" day here in my wonderful Appalachian home. I would like to ask fellow " gungeon residents" a question, and ask about their thoughts on this.

My daughter is 14, she is starting to stay home, alone more and more. She has an extremely high IQ for her age, and has more common sense than many adults (she is also a political junkie), not to mention "PERFECT SOL SCORES" and she also goes to Govener's school.

She has grown up around firearms, she even has some of her own. But she is at that age, where she really wants to stay home by herself, when I, or my wife is at work, or when we are shopping or doing other assorted running. I have no issues with her being home alone, even at night.

Here is my question for you all.

What do you folks think about me letting her keep a loaded magazine for her rifle?

She already has been instructed to run and to call the neighbors, and all other “normal” defensive tactics.

And she has NOT ASKED for the ability to use her rifle (M1 Carbine) for personal self defense, when me, or her mother are gone. I am just starting to think she is getting awfully close to that age.

Just to add, she has been reponsable for "her" rifle for many years already, she keeps it stored in her closet.

If she asks, go for it. PersonallyI think giving your daughter a magazine of bullets is a rather odd "coming of age" thing... But Hey, dif'rent strokes.

I am wondering what other folks think, thanks for your input.

fuck it. I suck.

How isolated is your home form your neighbors? 200 Yards, give or take

Do you have dogs? Yes, but she is a Pet, and she is a quiet one at that.

How often does she target shoot/use her weapon? Regularly, she is a great shot, with many different types that I have.

Would you let her keep the ammo if she were a boy? Has zero bearing on this. To me, it is all about mindset, and maturity.

- and you're the only one who knows the answer as you're the only one who really knows her. If she's mature, has followed all your safety rules and regs with regards to weapons, is well trained, doesn't spook easy and if you think that her ability to have access could benefit her, then I'd say yes.

Are there younger children in the household or other children that have access to the home? You would want to consider those factors if they're a possibility.

It is a "coming of age" thing that I understand. A "junior" hunting rifle has been handed down in our family from boy to boy at the age of 11 since the mid 1920's. At this point it's an antique that isn't fired but I still had to make sure my son didn't go to school and announce "I got a rifle!" for his 11th birthday!

OH, and YES, being a girl has nothing to do with it!

There are other questions too that need to be taken into consideration.

What type of neighbors do you have?

Parents might be okay but the teenage boys or even younger might be a different story.

What type of relationship is there with other kids in the area?

Do any of them display possible defective behavior? Of course, it may not be obvious. I would keep an eye out for potential problems.

Does your daughter go out when your gone? Do you know 100% that she doesn't?

Have you gone through responses to possible actions? She needs to know and even you need to know what to do in certain situations. It needs to be thought of on a regular basis so that when an emergency does happen you/she does it automatically.

Who knows you have firearms in the house that don't live in the house? Do they know where all of them are stored?

I would not want to have them all stored in the same place. Some should be out of sight and others could be handier.

Do you want her to be involved in a situation with firearms? Or have some type of safety plan executed to increase her survival? Daytime would be easier than nite time if firearms are used. Escape would be easier in the dark provided she knows the territory well.

Does she have a cell phone? Or is there a cell phone that is kept at home at times? If threatened it may be better to get out of the house or someplace secret in the house. If so, grab the cell and retreat and then make the 911 call and either they call you or she calls you after reporting the emergency. Most important in those situations. Turn off the ringer!


One more thing. Whenever she is left alone I would make regular calls to her to make sure she is safe. Having her call wouldn't be as good as she might get busy and forget. Hopefully, someone would be home with her within an hour or so after she goes to bed.

You could call every 2 hours and if both have cell she could text between those 2 hours that she is ok.

Hopefully, it is set up so that any doors that are opened she will hear them.

Emphasis on 'if necessary'.

If the answer is no, get a bigger dog or something.

1) Does the need exist? Is there a likelihood that my son will need to use a gun for protection?

2) Is he capable of making a responsible decision about when to use and not use a firearm, even under stress?

3) Is he proficient?

And, lastly, do the benefits of allowing him to have access to a firearm for protection...which may include the use of lethal force...outweigh the drawbacks?


I chose not to provide the firearm because 1) I didn't feel there was a legitimate need, and 2) although he is a very responsible and intelligent kid, he's not an adult and I wasn't 100% sure his judgment would be of the standard I'd consider safe if he was scared.

He's actually quite proficient, but that didn't outweigh the other considerations.


It's your choice, but there are a lot of issues to consider.

1) Does the need exist? Is there a likelihood that my son will need to use a gun for protection? Yes, nights home alone...


2) Is he capable of making a responsible decision about when to use and not use a firearm, even under stress? I need to give that one some thought,


3) Is he proficient? Yes.


Somehow l should sit down and talk with her about this. Without hinting about what I am thinking.

Inside of 20 feet (which is probably the situation with which she'd be faced unless you live in a bowling alley) a handgun...or even a shotgun...would serve as a much better means of defense.

Small enough to handle, but big enough to get someones full attention.

One more obstacle for the bad guy to deal with... personally I think an M1 Carbine is fine and dandy. Able to be used as a club or a spear as well as a firearm. And loaded with hollowpoints would make any attacker dead in short order. Low recoil, semi-automatic, 30 round magazines, and a thousand foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.

I still think a .38 wheelgun with +P hollowpoints or a 20 gauge shotgun would be much more appropriate for home defense for a girl of this age.

It's definitely harder with a pistol. I went to a Cowboy Action practice a year ago. A "cowboy" was nice enough to let me try out a couple of guns in a couple of events. One of them was the "5 targets on five spokes" that spun around on a hub. Shoot off one target and the whole thing begins rotating, with the rotation changing each time you hit another target.

With a lever-action rifle I got all 5. With a pair of Blackhawks I got 3.

She'd have to be about as accurate with the carbine as the shotgun. So, she should go with what she knows and is comfortable with.

Of course, you can get 00 and 000 buckshot for a .410, and those are pretty mild in the recoil department as well. A .410 side-by-side wouldn't be bad, either. And Bakial (sp?) makes inexpensive .410s with automatic ejectors.

Sounds challenging.


I appreciate what you say, but I still don't see a 14-year-old girl being particularly effective using an M1-mounted bayonet...or using the M1 as a club.

...and I still believe a handgun is more effective within 20 feet.


That said, a side-by-side .410 is an interesting solution that I hadn't considered.

I'm glad "Blue Dog" let me try it out! He had a Marlin lever-action in .357 Magnum... pretty slick action on that puppy.


I figure with the bayonet, even if she doesn't use it, it's one more thing to make the bad guy think about... it's an obstacle he has to dodge around if he goes to grab her or her gun. He might well end up cut (which is DNA evidence) or impaled even by accident.

Can't hurt, I guess.


A .410 side-by-side cut down to legal minimum wouldn't be bad at all. And they have those sleeves for the butt that are made to hold 9 rifle cartridges that will also hold 9 .410 shells. That's a decent amount of firepower. Simple, and with 5 00-buck pellets per cartridge (or 3 000 buck per) it's not something to just laugh at, either.

The short sight radius, the lack of mass to absorb the recoil.

I wouldn't switch anyone form a long arm to handgun unless they could shoot as well w/ a handgun.
Now a shotgun over a carbine I could see that.

An M1 carbine is an intermediate caliber weapon that has the advantage of coming W/ a 30 round magazine (find me a pistol or a shotgun that will do that). For a teen her best bet in a home defense situation would be to hole up in a safe room and shoot anything that comes through the door. For that an M1 would be fine

But their is too many of you good people to thank! Practically all of you good folks gave me plenty to think about. Well, everyone except for that bigot that came to this thread.

I still have much to ponder on this one.

Since she hasn't asked, I wouldn't push it on her. Regardless of how smart she is, the use of deadly force is a responsibility that no child is ready for, IMO. I would wait until she is at least 16 or 17.

Of course, that was in the "Olden days" when kids in the country just had guns. Nobody thought about it, it was just how things were. We used to walk down Occidental Road just north of Sebastopol (not very far north of San Francisco) with loaded 22 ca. rifles, hunting squirrels and such and it was just considered normal.

In the time since, the gun grabbers have used the media to make people so afraid that I very much doubt you could walk down Occidental Road with a loaded 22 without having Der Faterland security swoop down and surround you with a swat team.

In my opinion, she is old enough to decide for herself. Ask her how she feels and follow her lead but, as a Police officer said to me recently when I was asking about the legal way to carry my 9mm Walther in my truck, "What's the point of having a gun if you don't have bullets?

To clarify, I keep the Walther in a gun safe behind the drivers seat but you can't keep the bullets in the same place as the gun in California. I was not sure if a loaded magazine was allowed. It is, so I keep two mags of 9mm JHP in the pockets behind the drivers seat. Still damned inconvenient if you need a gun in a hurry, open the safe, retrieve the gun, find the magazines, load, chamber and you are ready, but I guess it does give you time to think before you act and, as there seem to be a whole lot of people with anger managment issues lately, this is probably not a bad thing.

Just my 2 cents

If she can't mentally shoot the bad guy, then she probably shouldn't have it. No reason to give the bad guy a loaded gun, right?

I think that's the issue here.



However there could be a middle ground of sorts, I guess. Put a loaded magazine in a lockbox and give her the key before you leave. Take it back when you get back. If the shit hits the fan she can unlock the box and slam the magazine into her rifle before she calls the cops and you guys. Absolute worst case: she had to use it before any help gets there.

we lived in a small city, majority of folks were great, but we occasionally got death threats because of his job or my mother's job (she was a justice of the peace, wrote warrants and bonds).

We always had guns in the house, rifles, which were unloaded, and his service revolver, which was always loaded.

He started teaching me to shoot when I was a little girl, about 10 or 11. We'd go out and target practice with a little .22 rifle, which was just right for me.

When it came time for self defense lessons, he taught me the following:

Never use a gun to threaten anyone

If you pick it up in self defense, shoot to kill, not to injure.

If your attacker is as close as an arm's length, he's too close to use the gun because he could disarm you and use the weapon against you.

Make sure you know what you're aiming at. If you can't see, don't shoot.

Try to position yourself in a good defensive location and do not warn the attacker that your are armed. Shoot first and ask questions later.

He also said I should have a good watch dog, and a good security system.

If you're sure your daughter could shoot to kill, then she's old enough.
I now have a handgun with clip instead of a rifle, and would hate to have to use it, but I would not hesitate if I was in danger, and yes, I would shoot to kill. No question.

You never "shoot to kill".

You "shoot to stop the threat".


There may be no practical difference (killing is the best way to stop the threat) but a prosecutor will skin you alive on the stand if he hears "shoot to kill".

Cops shoot to stop.
Military shoots to stop.
You should shoot to stop.

If the intruder lives or dies is not the intent. Your only intent should be to stop the attack immediately.

Now usually enough force to stop the attack immediately will cause life threatening wounds but the intent is always to stop.

"Officer I was afraid for my life. I shot to stop the threat. He kept coming for me so I kept shooting until he was no longer a threat".

A lot of teenagers want responsibility and trust from their folks. If you think she can handle it, go for it. I remember those types of gestures from my folks and that age, they really helped.

Do you think she's capable of safe firearms handling? Does she understand that under NO CIRCUMSTANCE are her friends allowed to touch the weapon? If your answer is yes then why not? The world is getting to be a weird place leave her the means to defend herself.

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If she is trained to use a gun and has fired it many, many times and her Dad is concerned about her security, then what's wrong with her having the gun in the home when she is alone, WHEN she is emotionally responsible enough to handle it?

We don't have guns in our house and never will. But other people do. But I'm not going to tell people who act differently on this issue to do what we do, as long as they act responsibly with their kids.

Mountainman, the only concern I would have is this: If she were faced with an intruder, could she handle the gun such that the intruder could not take it from her? Is she emotionally strong enough, under such great stress, to know what to do with it - when and whether to actually shoot it or not?

I'd bet that most of us adults on this thread would fail this test. What about her?

but we all live in different situations that may require different solutions.
In addition, I would ask that you not use "hillbilly" as pejorative.
I think if you knew them, you would find that they have a lot more "sense" that you realize.

I think I was 10 when I got my first rifle. Going to be keeping that tradition alive, you betcha.


In a very mean way, I hope that scares the shit out of people like you.

Gosh, why should THAT bother me?

After all, no firearm is required to "end my life or others' at your convenience upon your whim or caprice?".

I ask because about ninety per cent of the people you meet during the day could end your life at their convenience upon their whim or caprice, and they don't need a gun to do it. A knife, brick, rock, bottle, cigarette lighter(modified to be a small flame thrower) will do the job. Let's not forget baseball bats. Wood, aluminum, or ceramic - take your pick. Of course there are those nasty broadhead arrows that, when shoved into someone will bleed them out in a hurry, not to mention having the added benefit of them not being able to pull them out. And, if they are students of G. Gordan Liddy, a pencil or rolled up magazine. The point here is that if you are going to spend your days afraid that someone will kill you, you might want to get a little help.

I wonder why that is...

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I'm sure you already know all kids are different.
But I would suggest you make this a solid yes or no issue, not a "sort of" issue.
Meaning that if she has a full mag, she has training on how to use the gun for self defense. And much more importantly, how not to shoot a friendly by accident.
I've been carrying for 15 years. I've sort of needed a gun once. But 3 times good guys have scared the crap out of me because they were where they were not supposed to be. Sister that spent the night when I didn't know it,store manager who came into a dark store through a different door than me, and daughters boyfriend slipping into the house at 3am.
In our culture the chances of bumping into a good guy are very high, but the training isn't there for that situation.
If we could change the common self defense training, we could drastically cut down the number of tragic shootings.
Now I go to low ready,so the gun is not pointed at anybody in such a stressful situation, and I assume I am about bump into a good guy, but I prepare myself to mentally change gears.

When I was growing up, all my Dad's guns were in a glass-faced display case. I always knew where the key was, so effectively, they were not locked.

I played with my Dad's guns where I was growing up. I wasn't supposed to, but I did. I would take his .22 and .32 pistols and steal a few bullets out of the box and shoot matchbox cars or whatever with them. One time I took his .44 magnum carbine and blew an old lock off of my bicycle as I could no longer remember the combination. Unfortunately the bullet and lock fragments put out the front tire! :) I had been trained with firearms since I was about 9 or 10 so I always handled them safely and knew my backstop, though. I was given my first .22 rifle when I was 12.

Then when I was about 15-16 or so I sat on my parents' bed with his .357 at my temple contemplating suicide.

I tend to lean towards the believe that the right to self-defense is something that belongs to adults and is something that adults should procure for themselves.

I won't go through the list of dumbshit I did when I was a teenager.
My 10 year old though, is much better trained than I was. He doesn't care that much about guns because he has had so much exposure, including shooting water jugs to watch them explode and stuff like that. But I bite his head off if he does something that isn't safe.
As a result, he wouldn't be bothered by shooting a watermelon in the front yard with a 12 ga for fun. But while he is doing it he is being very careful not to point the gun toward anybody, loaded or not, not even by accident. His safety is becoming habit. Totally different than my training.
I built him a .22, he is getting pretty good with it.

Oh I think I had fantastic training. I was taught how to safely handle firearms absolutely, and I always have. I just wanted to go shooting and my Dad wasn't big into shooting (he was into hunting). So when I got home from school and my parents weren't home yet every once in a while I would take his guns and steal some bullets and do it!

But I was always very safe with them, and always considered what I was shooting and what was downrange. Well, except for the shrapnel incident with the bicycle lock... :) But I always made sure I had a good backstop.

Another example: When I was a kid I had one of those big styrofoam gliders you tossed and they flew around. After gluing it back together for the 100th time I decided to give it a big send-off. So I got one of my dad's shotguns and had a buddy of mine stand behind me and throw it over my head. When it got out in front of me I blew it out of the sky. LOL it looked like it had freaking snowed in those woods! :)

So you used his guns without permission.

As opposed to all the other little teenage angels in the world who would never take the parents car,or borrow the credit card, get into dads porn stash, steal parents booze,smoke pot while the parents are gone,chat with strangers on the net, have a party while the parents are gone, or sneak a boyfriend into the house at night for sex.

I'm glad you had good training. And I'm fixing it my family.

I'll have to try the plane thing. I think my boy would love that.

Smile, be friendly, but always have a plan to kill someone if necessary.

From what you say she has learned the maturity of firearm ownership, safety, usage, and storage. Very impressive for a 14yr old girl (good job, btw). But you need to set your parental favorability for your daughter aside and analyze whether or not you feel she is THAT mature... mature enough to act without hesitation if called upon and mature enough for the consequences of such actions.

There are alot of gun enthusiasts that don't know the answer to that question themselves, much less 14yr old girls. I carry a gun and would like to think I could use it without hesitation in a true life/death situation. I know several buddies I shoot with well and would bet good money that none of them would ever use the gun if called upon to do so. nothing against them, that's just who they are. Who knows, even I may freeze up someday...

Talk to her. See how she feels about this issue in particular. Perhaps attend a self defense class with her. Also, don't discount the fact that some laws in certain areas may dictate firearm access for minors. The good news is she already enjoys a rewarding hobby at the least.

Edit: Most of all, before she makes her choice, let her know that using a firearm in defense is quite possibly the ultimate no win situation. AT BEST, you keep your life and even if you "win" you most likely end up in court explaining your actions. The alternative is, of course, being at the mercy of a criminal. (And you thought elections were no-win situations... lol)

There is a lot that goes into lawful self defense beyond the techincal aspects.

From what you describe she has the technical aspects and gun safety down. That is good enough for her to shoot in the backyard or go to the range. Great start.

However most of a defensive gun use is not technical.

Does she have the discipline to IDENTIFY the target first even when scared before shooting (and thus avoid shooting a non intruder who startled her)?

teenagers tend to be more emotional and less prepared to handle their emotions than adults. Would you see the early signs of depression? Even if she is not depressed now things change radically from year to year for teens and EVERYTHING seems to be "the end of the world". Does she have the emotional maturity to understand virtually nothing in your teenage years is "the end of the world" and suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem?

If she mentions this firearm to her friends can she stand up to peer pressure when one of them (with no firearm training) wants to hold it for "just a second"?

That is a lot on the emotional side to ask a teenager to handle, maybe more than she can handle.

If it were my child I would be looking towards age 16. If she shows herself to be responsible with a motor vehicle then she likely can be responsible with a firearm. I wouldn't let a 14 year old drive even if the law allowed for the same emotional reasons.

pushed out of sight on a shelf in his bedroom since before I was born.

He said if I wanted to use it that I could, at the range, safely, and with him there. If he even thought I was playing with it he would never let me go to the range, and he would lock it away. It convinced me, I never even touched it.

I had shotguns and rifles from age 10 but didn't really think of them in terms of a potential shooting of a human, they were for putting tasty critters in the frying pan or stewpot. :D

But on reflection, that was a very long time ago when we didn't bother to lock the doors and the concept of home invasions hadn't yet been invented. I do believe if I still lived where I did then and had a 14 yo kid, I would definitely school him or her in the basics of armed self-defense.

By the time I was 14, I had my own shotgun (kept in the gun cabinet) and a .22 revolver (kept in my room unloaded, but with rounds readily at-hand).

There is much discussion about whether she has the maturity or willingness to shoot an attacker. Anyone who has never confronted an attacker doesn't really know if he/she has that maturity or willingness. My own plan was to stay in my room as a "safe" place, and if an attacker had the gumption to break in and alert the family, get past their defenses, and climb the stairs and attempt to enter the room, I would react. It never happened and I'm glad something like that never did. But I saw this "plan" as a test not just of my own character, but as a means of seeing just how far an attacker might go in harming me; if a thug was willing to go that far, I think any reticence I might have had would have dissipated.

First I want to say that I support gun rights. That said, a 17-year-old at my kid's school shot himself in the head this past spring. The boy who killed himself was mature and had a very high IQ. He was also well versed in firearm safety, had been a hunter since he was in grade school and so on. His parents worked at night and were concerned about intruders, so they had him keep a loaded gun in his bedroom starting when he was a freshman in high school.

One weekend when they were all home he said he was going in his bedroom to do homework and an hour later shot himself with that gun. The parents swear they never saw any signs of depression. After it happened, our school district had professional counselors come in. The counselors held a seminar for parents - they said it is not at all unusual for teenagers to NOT display the typical symptoms of depression before they commit suicide. I can't remember the exact explanation for that, but it was related to teenagers being much more impulsive than adults. And even the most mature teenagers are more impulsive than normal adults. That impulsiveness is physiological and has to do with brain development, so there's not much parents can do to make their teenagers less impulsive.

The boy's mom has become a huge opponent of letting any unsupervised teenager keep a loaded weapon. She's even started giving speeches about the issue. She's a lifelong gun owner and still not a gun control supporter by any stretch of the imagination. But since you never know which teenager may do something like that, she thinks any teenager alone with a loaded gun is a recipe for potential disaster.

I agree with her. I knew the boy and still can't fathom his suicide. He was a seemingly well adjusted kid, active in sports and extra-curriculars, good grades and all that. He was one of the last kids you'd expect that from (and it was definitely a suicide according to the coroner).

I realize that teenagers can kill themselves without a gun, but having a loaded weapon handy makes it too easy in an impulse-type situation. I can see that kid having a really bad day with his girlfriend (or whatever) and thinking the gun was a good way to stop the pain quickly. I think if he hadn't had that easy method right in front of him he would still be alive because he would've had to stop and think longer. His mom agrees with that assessment.

I have decided to wait a while longer on this one. I wish I had the time to respond to all the excellent posts, and thoughts in this thread.

:toast: to everyone but the Bigot!

I think you'd be OK providing here with access to the loaded magazine provided that she practices regularly at a range with her carbine, and after both of you having walked through periodic practice situations at home where you show her what she needs to do to load and unload the firearm, using dummy ammunition or empty magazines.

Key points she should learn and demonstrate on demand:

*How to safely pick up and handle the carbine (maintain muzzle awareness)
*How to install a magazine, chamber a (dummy) round, and manipulate the safety.
*How to activate the safety, remove the magazine, and clear the chamber.
*Explain to you how the carbine works, how the ammunition gets into and out of the chamber.
*Identify two to three safe places for her to retreat in your home, with phone access, in the event she can't get outside.
If you're going to equip her for self defense, formulate plans and practice them now and then.

And at the firing range, in addition to demonstrating the above skills every time you shoot, have her practice center of mass double taps on a torso sized target 15m away.

This will enable her to defend herself if flight and all other countermeasures fail to keep her far enough away from a threat.

You both need to be clear that in order to defend herself, she might have to use force. This is a last resort, but she needs to know that it's OK, if necessary, to do so.

And one last 'homework assignment', she should write a page on the history of her Carbine after some internet or library research.

Just invest some time to plan strategy and maintain skill. May this never be needed, but available in crisis.