.223 Remington - it's just the most powerful rifle round you can buy!

"...These ARs also had 30-round banana clips in them with 223 rounds, which can penetrate care doors, bodies, windows ... and they travel forever," Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Department spokesman Kim Allyn said. ...."


http://www.theksbwchannel.com/news/2676347/detail.html

What did he want them to have Marlin 444 lever actions??

*edited to add: the cops are lucky they didn't!*

what a moron! and she's a cop???? yikes! I guess she's had little to no firearms training or experience

that the RKBA crowd were spanking their own cranks about last week....<sarcasm>don't worry about the people terrorized in the bank robbery, but instead fuss about your favorite ammunition being publicly slandered...not to mention the insult to assault rifles.</sarcasm>

As somebody said, "here we have an example of when their callousness and lack of compassion really show through..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=24211

"the human toll" riiiiggghhht. no shots were fired. robbery has existed well before AR15's were invented. Villifying the tools used in robberys does nothing to solve the real problem.

Perhaps your time would be better spent curing the weaknesses of human nature than whining about guns all day.

"no shots were fired"
Try not to sound too disappointed. Maybe next time they'll kill a bystander with your favorite ammo.

"Perhaps your time would be better spent curing the weaknesses of human nature"
No, I think I'll just continue to point out what dishonest pieces of shit the politicans who peddle gun rights in public are and what the "human toll" of letting the corrupt gun industry set public policy actually is.

to ashcroft you won't have to worry about it anymore

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I see no clear line between Ashcroft and the Anti's here. Both seem eager to remove the rights of the average citizen, they just don't agree on which ones.

ROFLMAO!!!

without sexual innuendo or vulgarity?

Just curious...

"...These ARs also had 30-round banana clips in them with 223 rounds, which can penetrate care doors, bodies, windows ... and they travel forever," Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Department spokesman Kim Allyn said. ...."

You mean a .223 can penetrate a body?! It can penetrate a WINDOW!? Wow, maybe they should have had a .22 rifle, because a .22LR round certainly can't do that. :eyes:

And wow... a .223 round travels "forever"? I didn't know that.

A knife can penetrate a car door. It's not a diffacult task. What are they, fiberglass and aluminum.

Whats funny, is that while a .223 may penetrate a door, it's going to have little to no power on the other side due to it's tumble and frag nature.

Someone should smack that spokes person, a bannana clip? Righttt....Quick quick, someone take away her 80's action flicks before she learns any more buzz words!

First off, if she knew anything, AR-15's don't use "clips", they use "magazines". An M1 Garand uses a "clip". :eyes:

Next, it was good to see just how well the ban on magazines that hold over 30 rounds worked. :eyes: again

Just more proof that the 94 AWB is just plain dumb.

I can't wait for your constitutional dissertation.
Besides, everybody knows that if you want to buy a 30 round clip, OOPS I mean MAGAZINE, all you have to do is contact the advertisers in the back of the NRA magazines, and you can buy all of those "neat" accessories for your assault weapon. They'll even teach you how to convert it to full auto.

Because if you're acting like you know what you're talking about, then it certainly doesnt hurt to know how to talk about it.

of the issue you're discussing. I'm sure everything will work out fine. No body paid attention to the technical discussion before the first AWB was passed, and now the pro-control folks whine about how gun companies "circumvented" it. If they'd paid attention in the first place they'd have known how nonsensical the bill was in the first place, and still is today. I love how pro-control folks can throw around the notion that in-depth, correct technical discussion of gun control issues is unnecessary and an obfuscating tactic used by the other side. Does anyone make this claim about the Social Security debate, or global warming?

You can also buy 30 round mags from just about any gun shop or advertiser in the country, at any gun show and most of the flea markets I've been to. I haven't, however, seen any manuals on full auto conversion in the back of the NRA's magazine lately.

"No body paid attention to the technical discussion before the first AWB was passed, and now the pro-control folks whine about how gun companies "circumvented" it. If they'd paid attention in the first place they'd have known how nonsensical the bill was in the first place, and still is today. I love how pro-control folks can throw around the notion that in-depth, correct technical discussion of gun control issues is unnecessary and an obfuscating tactic used by the other side. Does anyone make this claim about the Social Security debate, or global warming?"-leanings

Well spoken sir. Well spoken indeed.

Toast to the post. :toast:

You can't stick a knife through that, and neithter can I.

Mines some kind of fiberglassy material.

And for the record. A Knife company called Cold Steel frequently demonstrates the heat treating of their knives by sticking them through car doors simply because it sounds amazing.

Fact is, other people have disputed cold steel using that as an advertising tactic because almost any non cullinary knife can preform the same feat.

a company which frequently puts their knives thru car doors by hand in order to demonstrate how resilient their points are. I haven't found a pic yet, although I have the catalog right in front of me. They also put them thru oil drums, which are pretty thick steel. Suffice to say that you're wrong.

how much does an AR15 weigh with 223 rounds of bananas in its clip
and what kind of banana will penetrate a car door... Chiquita?

It's a good thing no shots were fired, all those "casings" would have been slippery indeed.




Sorry. I guess I should be more serious.

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I tried my .300 WBY on an elk nad it just bounced right off. Same thing with my .460 WBY and that danged grizzly.

I'm gonna rush right out and get me a...uh...never mind...got a Mini 14 already.

On edit: Yup! I eat what I kill. (And I have been known to eat live mammals, too.)

For an AR-15? Has anyone ever seen such a thing?

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They hold bananas or plantains.

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

-Sigmund Freud , "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis"

Many People seem to repeat the same cliches about
Guns over and over, there is no GUN LOBBY,
only People that take Their defense seriously,
as a Jew I look at history and wonder if My bretheren
had met the Nazis at the door with a Gun, perhaps
the results would have been different.

Welcome to DU!

And yes, you can get your 'colt sporter' assault rifle chambered for the AK-47 round, which will then use the 'banana magazine'.

Colt Sporter's are Ar-15 rifles, they CANNOT fire an ak-47 round (7.62x39). It just cant be done, they just wont fit in the magazine well. So, for someone speaking authoritatively you sure are wrong.

Now there is a weapon by a company called Special Weapons called the Ar-47 that uses AK magazines. But it is not an Ar-15, it just looks like one.

But I digress, "bananna mags" is a buzz-word that refers to any curved magazine, not a specific magazine designed for a specific caliber. Having a curved or straight magazine has no effect on anything whatsoever. It just sounds more intimidating to Joe Ignorant when you say "bananna clip".

While you can get a Colt or other pattern AR in 7.62, what I've heard referred to as the 'banana' style mag is used in the AK series rifles. While both the relevant ARs and the AKs use 7.62x39, they do not use the same types of magazines. AKs use a mag that has to be rocked into place, forward portion first. The AR magwells are much deeper, making for a straighter magazine. So, sorry, thanks for playing.

AR-15's are modular in that they consist of an "upper" and a "lower". The lower will work with many kinds of "uppers". You can use the same lower and put on it a "normal" 5.56/.223 upper, or you can put a 7.62x39 upper on it to fire the AK bullet. The upper looks the same from the outside (except for the larger bore for the larger AK round). You can also get .22LR uppers for an AR-15, as you can also get 9mm uppers for an AR-15. All use the same lower and can be interchanged in about 20 seconds. I have a .22LR, 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 upper for my AR-15. The .22LR one uses special magazines for the smaller round. The 7.62x39 upper can use regular 30rd 5.56/.223 magazines, but they only hold about 10 of the larger 7.62x39 round and don't feed very reliably. You can buy "frankenmags" which are basically the upper part of an AR-15 magazine cut off and welded to the lower part of an AK-47 magazine. They hold about 30 rounds of 7.62x39, feed better and look like AK-47 mags in an AR-15. There aren't too many of them out there.

If each of them were armed with an assault rifle with 30 round magazines, then they could have killed a whole lot of people. Car doors and windows wouldn't have protected anybody either. In fact, I've heard that the round from an AR-15 assault rifle will even penetrate the kevlar helmets our service people use. (Let's hope the Rooskies don't get their hands on AR-15's! Or Al Qaeda for that matter)
How quickly can you empty a 30 round magazine? About ten or twelve seconds, I believe. That's a lot of people killed or maimed in a very short amount of time.
I'm sure you're not trying to imply that a lever action rifle could spray bullets that fast.

This is only a guess, but given the difficulty of concealment of any rifle, which is an issue both before and after the robbery (assuming they intended to arrive and then flee without drawing attention to themselves) maybe they picked the ARs because they look so very intimidating. IOW, waving ARs around would reduce the probability of any of the patrons or guards trying anything on them, due to the overwhelming display of force. I don't tend to think of crooks as being very bright, but many of them seem to at least understand power issues.

Wow explain this to mr B, he swears you can do it in two seconds or less.

Wow explain this to mr B, he swears you can do it in two seconds or less.

You jest right?

Even a Mac-10 sub-machine gun, which has one of the fastest cyclic rates of all full auto weapons doesnt empty a magazine that fast.

I also dont think anyone but Bob Munden can empty a semi-automatic rifle in 10 seconds, and he's like..a gun god. Maybe if you bump fire it. But if any anti thinks a bank robber is going to start bump firing a rifle then they're nuts, it's hard to do even standing perfectly still and concentrating on what you're doing.

It's funny how the people that seem to know so little about firearms, are always the ones that want to ban them.

Mr b has read to much material from the bradybunch website and thinks you can shoot 30 rounds in two seconds. Last week I made a bet with him several times that it cant be done. Of course Mr B would never take this bet, but he did manage to come up with several of his stupid sayings.

Mr b has read to much material from the bradybunch website and thinks you can shoot 30 rounds in two seconds.

Wow.

I am pretty fast on the trigger alright, but I can't bealive the brady bunch told everyone I can shoot that fast. :)

My favorite one so far is an article I read that claimed "assault weapons" can shoot up to...get this... SIX...bullets a minute

Why, that means assault weapons have TWICE the fire power of a muzzleloader Which only fires three bullets a minute.

Now..they probably meant 6 bullets a second. Which is of course, physically impossible, not only for the shooter, but for the gun.

Let's look at a spec sheet for the Mac 10....

"Data for MAC M10
Caliber .45ACP, 9x19mm Luger/Para (.380ACP a.k.a. 9x17mm Short for M-11)
Weight 2,84 kg (1.59 kg M-11)
Lenght 269 mm (548 mm with open stock) (248/460 mm for M11)
Rate of fire 1100 rounds per minute (1600 rpm for MAC-11 in .380)
Magazine capacity 30 , 32 rounds
Effective range 25 meters "

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg22-e.htm

1,100 rounds a minute...why that's a little over 18 a second...or 36 in two seconds...

What was that about not letting facts getting in the way?

"It's funny how the people that seem to know so little about firearms, are always the ones that want to ban them."
It's even funnier how few sane people are obsessed with gun trivia (especially when information is available with a few clicks of a mouse)....or how desperately gun nuts try to pretend that their fetish amounts to some sacred knowledge that renders all others unworthy of discussing guns.

it has nothing to do with federal laws covering full auto weapons. I know that I'am wasting my time explaining this to you, but what the hell.

You keep trying to pull this deception every time we get on this tack...

....call that a deception, when it's completely true?

The 1994 crime bill didnt even mention full auto weapons. And in fact, doesnt apply to full auto weapons at all. If you have a full auto gun you can configure it however you like. Short barrel, bayonet, collapsing stock, anything you want.

This way if you use a registered drop in auto sear, you can make a post-ban gun, exempt from the 1994 crime bill for this very reason. It just doesnt apply to full auto's

Here is a link to a very anti-gun website that explains that the assault weapons ban only covers semi-auto weapons.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/gunlaws/awb.asp

Q: What are the provisions of the ban?

A: On September 13, 1994, domestic gun manufacturers were required to stop production of semi-automatic assault weapons and ammunition c lips holding more than 10 rounds except for military or police use. Imports of assault weapons not already banned by administrative action under Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush were also halted. Assault weapons and ammunition clips holding more than 10 rounds produced prior to September 13, 1994, were "grandfathered" in under the law and can still be possessed and sold.

You're new, so welcome to DU.

This particular point of fact has provided hours of frustrating debate for all of us who have a clue about what the law covers and what it does NOT cover.

I attended a couple of Million Mom March meetups earlier this year to see what they were all about. Their level of ignorance fascinated me but it was also a little scary because their state of knowledge is typical of the uninformed public.

But thanks for linking to that page...which does show what a pantload the RKBA arguments on the subject are.

show you in your own terms that it covers semi-autos only. Do you still believe it covers machine guns?! Do you always attack everyone like this?

Do you always attack everyone like this?


Why, yes. But we think it's just his way of being friendly

This is hilarious...

He probably doesn't really know the difference between semiautomatic and automatic ones. He does bring up the same attempt at distraction from the issue over and over.

nt

:)

:)

rather than obsess over a fetish....

Colt and the dreaded Bushmaster has made their current rifles in such a way that they can't be converted.

The ATF defines any part that has no purpose other then to convert a semi-auto gun into a machine gun, as a machine gun.

If you have an M16 hammer in your AR-15. Doesnt matter that it only shoots semi auto. You have an illegal machine gun. Have a lightening link? Doesnt matter that it's only a little bigger then a large paper clip and doesnt really do anything. It's a machine gun.

To buy these so called "conversion kits. Or rather, to buy parts to full auto guns, you typicaly have to show that you own a legally registered machine gun capable of accepting the parts.

On any number of websites, you can order almost every part you need to convert a semi-auto gun to full auto.

But you're going to have to fax them a copy of your form 4 showing that you do indeed own a full-auto gun.

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The product of hysterical propaganda.

To perform such a conversion, even if you were handed all of the required parts, materials, and plans, and given access to a fully equipped machine shop with heat-treating facilities and all the tooling you'd need.

You haven't ever done any gunsmithing or general machine work, have you MrBenchley?

And i'll just laugh and know that certain people are wrong, rather than obsess over a control fetish.

(snicker)

I love gun trivia and according to everyone around me I'm perfectly sane. I don't think that just because you know a lot about something qualifies you as being the only one to discuss it but I do believe that you should have some knowledge of what it is you discuss. Especially if you want to ban it or restrict it. The MAC-10 is already heavily restricted. I believe there are semi-auto version available but I'm not sure being as I'm not a fan of the overall design therefore I have no interest in owning one. There are a lot more guns out there that are more accurate, better made, and have a far better effective range than 25 meters.

"The MAC-10 is already heavily restricted."
Gee, why did I mention that particular gun? DO tell us.

And I suspect selector_switch is experiencing the same state of puzzlement.

The MAC-10 described on the page you, MrBenchley, linked to is a selective-fire weapon regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Expiration of the AWB obviously won't change their legal status one iota.

..he was using the mac as an example because I used it and said that even a mac doesnt empty a mag that fast. (30 rounds in 2 seconds).

I don't know who you are and frankly I don't care right about now. I have not attacked you in anyway but you still have to reply to my serious questions or responses with childish answers and sarcasm. I'm sorry if that's what you already stated. Excuse the fuck out of me for posting a reply. If everyone in this place is as big of an asswipe as you are then I'll go spend my time somewhere else. I'm sorry if we have a difference in opinion or what we feel is right or wrong but that is no reason to freak out and reply with messages that are a waste of bandwidth. If you have no interest in discussing it with me like a man then just fuck off and don't reply.

Edited to Add: Is there anyway to get rid of this dipshit?

But I understand. If you can get past ...well, you know what im referring to, if you can get past it, things here aren't so bad.


"Is there anyway to get rid of this .....?"-selector_switch

Theres the "little sleeping man" icon, otherwise known as the ignore feature. Find a post authored by the person you want to ignore, and click that icon on that authors post. They will then show as "ignored". The icon is located at the end of the 4 icons just to the right of the post count at the top of a post.

I haven't been here that long myself, and have used the ignore function only once for a couple days, but after thinking about it, I decided its easier to just ignore the persons vitriol. After a while, it kind of dawns on you, that the nastiness can be an indicator that there are facts that nasty person faces that he/she can not reconcile, so they attack the messenger instead of the message.

I just hate these kinds of people but I suppose you have a point. There are a lot of people who have keyboard strength knowing there will be no consequence for what they say but when confronted in real life they will never identify themselves. Instead they run and hide because that's all they know. I know a lot of people that when presented with facts they become very hostile. They do whatever they can to dance around the question at hand. Did you notice out of all the things I said in my request he picked the most useless thing to reply to? Didn't make any attempt to answer my question either. I'm just going to guess here but I bet that sort of thing happens all the time? Thanks again.

Its kind of like this.

There are reasonable folks and absolutists on both sides of the gun issue, and MOST are decent about debating facts, but a few on both sides make everyone look bad with the personal attacks. It can get mighty hostile down here in the dungeon.

Folks on DU refer to the Justice/Public Safety forum as "the gun dungeon", because things can get EXTREMELY HEATED. I know of only one other forum on this board that gets so heated, but thats a different story.



In any case, Welcome to DU!

"you still have to reply to my serious questions or responses with childish answers and sarcasm."
Gee, why DID I mention that particular gun? DO tell us. It's not a personal attack to ask you to look further up the thread and see how the subject got into the thread....or who first brought up the Mac-10.....unless you know that already and know I asked the question to demonstrate YOUR intital bad faith.

"just fuck off and don't reply"
It's a public forum...if you don't want other people to laugh out loud at your posts perhaps you ought not make such ridiculous ones.

Selector_switch, MrBenchley.

Benchley, Selector_switch.

Let's just go with a GE mini gun so we can really rock and roll. 6,000 RPM.

Are ya gonna criticize my choice of underwear next?

Lefty doesn't have to explainn anything to me...but then he's not the sort of dishonest loony who wants to pretend these guns can't be easily converted to full auto with kits that are widely available..

more stupid remarks.

..the people that always say "easily converted to full auto".

Ussually have no idea how to do it.

do that without an illegal receiver. (Gun control does work?)

n/t

They were armed with semi automatic rifles, not assault rifles. Just because a rifle is black and has a pistol grip doesnt make it any more deadly then it's more traditional looking counter parts.

Do you know why the AR-15 has a pistol grip?

Because of the way the action is designed. There is no way to put a traditional stock on an AR-15 type rifle because the trigger sits to low.

To put a stock where you can actually fire the gun, without a pistol grip would entail having the recoil tube poking out the back of the gun, and well, that would just be stupid and impractical. It has nothing to do with being able to spray fire from the hip. Regardless of the vomit the VPC and Brady ilk keep spewing.

Car windows wont protect you from someone with a rock. Why would you expect rifle bullets to bounce off them?

Lots of rounds will penetrate body armour and helmets. A fuckin' arrow will penetrate body armour. the "Rooskies" and Al Qaeda use full auto AK-47 rifles that dont come from america. 7.62x39 will penetrate the helmets to. Almost any rifle will. To switch to semi automatic weapons would be a step down for terrorists.

I'm sure you're not trying to imply that a lever action rifle could spray bullets that fast.

No, thats what you're inferring. What he's implying is that the lever action rifle mentioned is MUCH MUCH more powerful then the .223 mouse gun you're quaking in fear from.

Everybody knows THAT.

and I'm neither, although I've ran into a few ignorant people who might think otherwise. Hey, if it weren’t for the ignorant people of the world how would we judge intelligence?

Uh, just about ANY rifle type round (minus .17, .22LR, etc..) will penetrate a Kevlar helmet. A bullet from an AR-15 will do it (.223/5.56), as will one from an AK-47 (7.62x39) and many others. Kevlar helmets are not primarily used for ballistic protection, but for shrapnel-type protection. They will however, IIRC, stop most handgun calibers (9mm, .40, .45ACP, etc).

Well let's look at Kenetic Energy...

5.56x45 - 55 grain bullet @ 3250 feet per second (military loading) = ~1290 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

7.62x39 - 125 grain bullet @ 2635 feet per second = ~1926 ft/lbs of muzzle energy

.444 Marlin - 240 grain bullet @ 2350 feet per second = ~2942 ft/lbs of muzzle energy

.44 Remington Magnum - 240 grain bullet @ 1760 feet per second = ~1650 ft/lbs of muzzle energy

Formula used = Energy = weight * velocity^2 / 450450

So as we can see, the AR-15 in .223 Remington (5.56x45 is the military designation and is loaded to higher velocity than most commercial ammunition in .223 Remington) is less powerful than the round fired by Iraqi's in the AK-47 rifle. It is also substantially less powerful than the .444 Marlin lever action used by some hunters. It is even LESS powerful than the .44 Remington Magnum cartridge chambered in many revolvers and a few autoloading pistols.

Clearly the .223 Remington is not the all-powerful cartridge that it is being portrayed as. It is rather weak in comparison to many other calibers, even some handguns are more powerful. ANY of the cartridges above is more than capable of penetrating car door, windscreens and bodies. ALL of the rifle calibers will penetrate most body armor and Kevlar helmets.

As to the .223 travelling forever, one must realize two things:

1. All bullets are subject to aerodynamic drag, which reduces velocity over time, and rather quickly I might add.

2. All bullets are subject to physics. ANY and ALL bullets fired from a horizontal plane will fall to earth at the rate of 32.175 feet per second per second, negating drag from air. Just as with anything else on earth, gravity is a factor.

Such an obvious misstatement should not be taken serious, rather one should feel pity for the person that utters such nonsense.

Such an obvious misstatement should not be taken serious, rather one should feel pity for the person that utters such nonsense.

It was just a small town cop having a Barney Fife moment.

I'm glad nobody got hurt, the money was recovered, and the assailants disarmed. All good news.

Humm,
I thought that all AR pattern rifles are registered in CA? How did these guys get one?

They stole them from a motion picture armory in West Hollywood :eyes:

or they stole from a police department :eyes:

The gun owners and sellers can't own them.

I'm new to the board but am looking forward to some good debate.

You'll certainly find it here.

And just so you know .223 is so high powered that it's illegal to hunt with it in tennessee....Apparently if you shoot a deer with .223 the deer just explodes, destroying everything withen a 100 yard radius.


Or maybe the state thinks it;s to weak to hunt with? nah...couldnt be...

"These ARs also had 30-round banana clips in them with 223 rounds, which can penetrate care doors, bodies, windows ... and they travel forever," Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Department spokesman Kim Allyn said.

I would hope a bullet could penetrate a window or a body. Come on, what kind of gun cant penetrate skin? As for the car doors, i can shoot through a car door with a .22. Most car doors are made out of a thin skin of sheet metal or even plastic. It might not have much stopping power after going through a door but it can still go through a door. And the .223 does travel a good distance. What are we discussing here?

Police spokespersons, newspapers, safety experts, respected Democratic politicans, doctors, scientists...they all profane the sacred fetish object when they speak, acccording to the RKBA crowd here.

Wonder why it is that whenever they produce someone they say speaks the "truth," it's ALWAYS some lying far right wing asswipe?

#35 deals with the truth. The plain FACT is the .223 is not some all powerful rifle cartridge. It's quite anemic in most respects compared to calibers commonly used by hunters. Let us also not forget that they don't "travel forever". The laws of physics, which even the evil AR-15 and it's ammunition are bound by, state otherwise.

If you wish to take a comment made a PR person from some small town as FACT, go ahead. The FACT is most ammunition will penetrate cars, and none of them "travel forever".

I would love for you to even attempt to debunk my comparisons of the .223 with other rounds available.

I rest my case...

if all the listed above knew anything about the subject they were talking about. And since anybody that knows anything about guns would be classified as a right winger by you, there would be no use to bring up any new ones.

"since anybody that knows anything about guns would be classified as a right winger by you"
Too funny, dems...you think it's ME that makes asswipes like tom DeLay, John AshKKKroft and Larry Pratt far right wing crackpots?