GUNS IN THE NEWS--December 3, 2003

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board.

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4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
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8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

Another poster boy for the RKBA crowd....

"COLUMBUS, Ohio - Knowing someone had fired a shot into Hamilton Central Elementary, parents watched nervously in the school gym as their kids dribbled basketballs around orange cones.
They said they didn't want to change their plans despite news Tuesday that authorities had linked the school shooting with 11 others along a five-mile stretch of interstate, including one that killed a woman.
Four of the shootings — three at vehicles and one at the school last month — were from the same gun, Franklin County Sheriff's Chief Deputy Steve Martin said Tuesday.
Although ballistics tests could not link the rest of the shootings along Interstate 270, investigators "are comfortable" saying all 12 are connected, he said. He would not elaborate.
Authorities have received more than 500 tips, but would not speculate about who might be responsible and would not release the type of weapon. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=1&u=/ap/20031203/ap_on_re_us/highway_shootings

"Milan -- The Ohio State Highway Patrol is investigating a shooting on the Ohio Turnpike.  It happened Tuesday evening around 7:00 at milemarker 122.
Troopers say 29-year-old Stephen McMullen, of East Cleveland, and 20-year-old Darryle Webster, of Detroit were driving westbound in a car when they were shot.  The driver, McMullen, was hit in the head.  He was taken by air ambulance to St. Vincent Mercy Medical Center where he remains in critical condition.  Webster was shot in the hand.  He was treated and released from a Norwalk hospital.
Troopers are not commenting on whether or not this incident is connected to the recent Columbus shootings. "

http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=1548768

"COLUMBUS, Ohio (Reuters) - Children reported for school under police guard on Wednesday in an Ohio school district as investigators pressed their search for clues to a string of 12 shootings police believe are linked.
Officials of the Hamilton Local School District, located in the area where the shootings have occurred over the past seven months, said police were patrolling the grounds of two elementary schools and an intermediate school as well as a middle school and a high school.
The schools are in southern Columbus and in the nearby town of Lockbourne. Children who would normally be let out for recess were being kept inside instead, the superintendent's office said, and nervous parents were shuttling students to dropoff points as doors opened for classes. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031203/us_nm/crime_shooting_ohio_dc_3

"LOS ANGELES - The man accused of killing the half-sister of Venus and Serena Williams was ordered Tuesday to stand trial on murder and firearm charges.
Yetunde Price was shot to death on Sept. 14 while sitting in a sport utility vehicle in Compton. Aaron M. Hammer has pleaded innocent in her death. Authorities have said he has ties to a street gang but is not a member. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031203/ap_on_sp_te_ne/ten_williams_sisters_shooting_1

"Vista homicide detectives are investigating a drive-by shooting that killed a man, a sheriff's lieutenant said.
The shooting occurred as the man rode a bicycle in the 1200 block of North Citrus Avenue at about 7:10 p.m. Monday, Lt. Edna Ito said.
Witnesses told officers they heard a shot coming from a vehicle whose driver may have been pursuing the victim, Ito said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031203/lo_kgtv/1902253

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"Using tragic stories to paint all gun owners and 2nd amendment supporters is beneath contempt."
<sarcasm>Yeah, who cares if they got shot, as long as they got shot in silence....</sarcasm>

"People like you are scum in my eyes. You're no better than the Ann Coulters of the world"
Say, I wonder what Ann Coulter's position on guns is...oh that's right...she's another one of these scummy pieces of shit who spouts that "gun rights" rubbish at the top of her lungs.

I've been on this BB for 3 or 4 years and never ventured into this forum, now I wish I never had.

Being as DU has only been in existence since January of 2001, I guess you're a time traveler as well in order to be on this board for 3 or 4 years.


Using tragic stories to paint all gun owners and 2nd amendment supporters is beneath contempt.

We're not trying to paint ALL gun owners in a negative light - we're just showing there's a dark side to the massive gun problem in this country.


Yes, we pay a price for the right of lawful citizens to have guns just as we pay a price for people to drive and do just about anything else.

Cars have been made safer. I see no reason why guns cannot be made safer as well. And that will involve reasonable gun control measures.


People like you are scum in my eyes. You're no better than the Ann Coulters of the world in fact you're just her liberal counterpart, poisioning this country with sewage that drips from your rancid, gaping holes.

This part just earned you an "Alert". It will be interesting to see what the moderators think about your "words of wisdom".

for having gun owners, according to the RKBA crowd, never seems to be that those folks be treated like those "people who drive", i.e., licensed, adequately insured, and their guns publicly registered.....

"...for having gun owners, according to the RKBA crowd, never seems to be that those folks be treated like those 'people who drive', i.e., licensed, adequately insured, and their guns publicly registered....."

Regulating guns like cars would result in the greatest decontrol of firearms in America since 1868, when the 14th Amendment abolished the Southern states' Black Codes, which prevented freedmen from owning firearms.

As it is now, you are free to walk into a dealership and purchase just about any vehicle that that you can afford, be it a cheap junk car, a military-style Hummer, or an evil low-rider car "of the kind commonly used by criminals" - without undergoing an FBI Instacheck. You can put the same kind of gas in the tank that the police put in theirs. You can install a muffler or automatic transmission without paying an onerous tax, getting a special permit from the Department of Transportation, or undergoing an intrusive federal background check. You can install running lights and a gun rack in your pickup truck without having to fear that you are inadvertently creating an illegal "assault vehicle." You can peacefully drive your vehicle onto school property without committing a felony. Neither a license nor registration is even required if you operate your vehicle solely on private property.

You can buy a car capable of driving faster than the speed limit. Some might ask why anyone would need a car capable of going faster than the speed limit. The answer is that there might be some kind of emergency. For example, you might have to get your loved one to a hospital in a hurry. (I can just hear the follow-up question. "Why can't you just dial 9-11 and wait for an ambulance?")

As it is now, a victim of a DWI or hit-and-run may not sue General Motors just because the perpetrator used a car manufactured by GM.

As it is now, even a violent felon with a history of drunk driving is free to buy a car.

If we treated guns like cars, then licenses would be issued according to objective criteria (shall-issue) and not according to the whimsy and political imperatives of the chiefs of police (may-issue).

If we treated guns like cars, then a concealed-carry license issued in Texas or Alaska would be valid in California in New York.

So do you still like to regulate guns like cars?

Warm regards,

Katarina

Cars and trucks meet emission and gas consumption requirements, safety requirements, and a host of other regulatory safeguards.

"s it is now, you are free to walk into a dealership and purchase just about any vehicle that that you can afford"
Yeah? Try asking for one without brakes and headlights....

"As it is now, a victim of a DWI or hit-and-run may not sue General Motors just because the perpetrator used a car manufactured by GM. "
They would if the GM dealer did not exercise a regard for public safety....which is why the corrupt gun industry is trying to rig the game by engineering itself a special immunity from legal liability.

Mr. Benchley wrote: "Yeah? Try asking for one without brakes and headlights...."

Notice that I wrote that you can purchase "just about" any vehicle that you can afford. That does not mean "any and every vehicle that anyone can possibly think up." It means that you can buy the tiniest manual-transmission Honda up to the most monstrous gaz-guzzling SUV with automatic transmission and anti-lock brakes. You can do this without having first to persuade some bureaucrat that you "need" the car in question.

Mr. Benchley claimed: "...the corrupt gun industry is trying to rig the game by engineering itself a special immunity from legal liability."

Actually, it is simply untrue that S. 659, "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act," would give the gun industry "special immunity from legal liability." The bill would only prevent lawsuits against manufactures and distributors for criminal or unlawful misuse of firearms that function as designed and intended. Lawsuits could still be brought against manufactures and distributors of firearms for the following reasons:

(1) an action brought against a transferor convicted for transferring a firearm knowing it would be used in a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, by a party directly harmed by the conduct of which the transferee is so convicted;

(2) an action brought against a seller for supplying a firearm or ammunition to another person when one knows, or should know, that other person is likely to, and does, use the product in a manner involving unreasonable risk of physical injury to the person and others or negligence per se;

(3) an action in which a manufacturer or seller knowingly and willfully violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought;

(4) an action for breach of contract or warranty in connection with the purchase of the product; or

(5) an action for physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended.

Warm regards,

Katarina

I've been trying to tell this guy that the gun industry won't be completely immune and his response to that is, "yeah surrrrre" instead of reading the damn bill himself. The truth hurts this guy more than anything. If he was to except the facts and statistics he would no longer have a purpose here on DU or life in general. Keep up the good work.

Edited to Add: For anyone interested tune into the History Channel tonight @ 8pm ET/PT to watch 'FDR's Secret War'. It's about the greatest manipulator of our time. You've got to love the History Channel. Tells it like it is.

"Notice that I wrote that you can purchase "just about" any vehicle that you can afford."
And all of them must meet mandated safety standards, adopted for public safety reasons (and not just those of the driver). Few such laws or regulations with public safety in mind constrain the gun industry...and those few that do are often cavalierly disregarded or skirted with the blessing of corrupt Republican politicans. Hence the number of assault rifles such as the Bushmaster (manufactured by a big GOP donor) that skirted the Assault Weapons Ban.

Under ordinary tort law a manufacturer or distributor of dangerous items is liable if he does not take reasonable care that his product fall into the wrong hands.. It is this provision which the corrupt gun industry has ignored, and it is what the crooked bill in Congress is trying to shield them from.

"Under ordinary tort law a manufacturer or distributor of dangerous items is liable if he does not take reasonable care that his product fall into the wrong hands.. It is this provision which the corrupt gun industry has ignored, and it is what the crooked bill in Congress is trying to shield them from."

The gun industry operates in a manner that is dictated by the law, right down to the details of warehouse security and inventory control, etc.

The bill in question would not protect the gun industry from problems caused by negligence, lawbreaking, or in cases of a defective product. The only reason the antis are so opposed to this bill is because it would prevent them from dishonestly abusing the legal system in their favorite backdoor method for bankrupting a legal business producing a legal product. Boo freaking hoo.

"The gun industry operates in a manner that is dictated by the law"
Jeeze, if that were remotely true, they wouldn't need this immunity bill, would they?

...the corrupt anti civil rights groups like the Brady Bunch abuse the court system to try to bankrupt the gun makers. If the Bradys of the world behaved honorably, it would not be necessary.

"corrupt anti civil rights groups"
The plaintiffs have been the NAACP, the City of Chicago, etc. And the only people behaving dishonorably are the Republicans and the corrupt gun industry.

How many dead people are usually counted as having voted in Chicago?

A member of the RKBA crowd dragging out an old GOP smear...who is surprised at that?

Mr. B: "Hence the number of assault rifles such as the Bushmaster (manufactured by a big GOP donor) that skirted the Assault Weapons Ban."

1) Assault rifles are not regulated by the Assault Weapons Ban.
2) Bushmaster doesn't make assault rifles for the civilian market.

"Assault rifle" is a specific military term for various types of fully-automatic and select-fire (multi-shot burst) intermediate-power long guns. The term "assault rifle" is a techincal term from the firearms lexicon.
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

By contrast, the term "assault weapon" is a politico-legal term, the definition of which varies depending on state and federal law. Under federal law, "assault weapon" at Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the United States Code. It includes specific rifles (the bushmaster AR-15 is not one of the banned models) as well as any semi-automatic which can accept a detachable magazine and any two of five cosmetic features.

New Jersey, however, defines "assault weapon" to include firerams with magazine capable of holding more than 15 rounds.

California's definition of "assault weapon" is so vague and convoluted that the police and courts have trouble enforcing the law.

"Assault weapon" is like the term "gateway drug." It did not exist until someone wanted to scare the rest of us into supporting a war on inanimate objects (wood, steel, dried vegetable products). In other words, it is a term of propaganda.

"Bushmaster doesn't make assault rifles for the civilian market."
Sez you...

"One year after two alleged snipers terrorized the Washington, DC-area, Sonia Wills, who lost her son Conrad Johnson in the attacks, today (October 1st) joined lawmakers on Capitol Hill to urge renewal and strengthening of the 1994 federal assault weapons ban.
Senators Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), and Jon Corzine (D-NJ), and Reps. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY), John Conyers (D-MI), Patrick Kennedy (D-RI), and Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) hosted Ms. Wills on Capitol Hill, and urged their colleagues to support S 1431 and HR 2038 - legislation that would stop the gun industry from manufacturing and marketing all assault weapons, including the snipers' Bushmaster rifle used in last fall's attacks.
"Assault weapons like the Bushmaster assault rifle that killed my son Conrad serve no useful purpose in our communities," said Ms. Wills. "These military-style weapons are the guns of choice for criminals, and should be banned permanently and completely."

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0,2061,567153,00.html

Sonia Wills lost her son Conrad Johnson to the murderers Malvo and Mohammad. Most of us cannot even begin to imagine her loss or her grief.

Nonetheless, in the quote above she is misuing the term "assault rifle." Malvo and Mohammd used a Bushmaster XM-15 E2S rifle in .223 caliber, a a semi-automatic rifle. The term "assault rifle" refers to a class of fully-automatic and select-fire (multi-shot burst) rifle of intermediate-power. If applied to any semi-automatic firearm regardless of its cosmetic similarity to a true assault rifle, the term is incorrect.

An "assault rifle" is a type of machine gun. The XM-15 E2S is not a machine gun. It is a semi-automatic rifle. That means that if fires one round with each pull of the trigger.

The first assault rifle was a German rifle, the StG 44 "Sturmgewehr" ("assault rifle"). The term "assault rifle" has a specific technical meaning.

On the other hand, the term "assault weapon" seems to mean "any weapon that scares gun control advocates."

------------------------------
This passage between Lewis Carroll’s Alice and Humpty Dumpty in "Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland" says a lot:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more or less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that’s all."



Warm regards,


Katarina

this "no one but we who love them know what an assault rifle is" might be about the most tedious....

I have searched the websites of the Brady Campaign and the VPC for definition of the terms "assault rifle" I cannot find any.

Can you offer a definition of "assault rifle"? Or do you guys just kinda make it up as you go along? Does "assault rifle" means "any scary-looking gun that we think should be banned"?

"Assault firearms are semi-automatic (firing one bullet per trigger pull) and fully automatic (the weapon will keep on firing as long as the trigger is depressed) anti-personnel rifles, shotguns, and handguns that are designed primarily for military and law enforcement use. With muzzle velocities that are often greater than standard long guns and high-capacity ammunition magazines, assault weapons are built to kill large numbers of human beings quickly and efficiently. In tests at their firing range, San Jose, California police found that a fully automatic UZI could fire its 30-round magazine in slightly less than two seconds. A semi-automatic version of the weapon required only five seconds for the magazine to be emptied.<1> Most assault weapons have no legitimate hunting or sporting use. Assault rifles and shotguns often have pistol grips and folding stocks and are typically lighter and more concealable than standard long guns. Some assault pistols have threaded barrels for the easy attachment of silencers. Many assault weapons are merely semi-automatic versions of military machine guns, making them easier to convert to fully automatic machine guns."

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaintro.htm

Posting VPC as authoritative on guns???

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She asked,m I delivered. Now go snivel about it to someone who gives a steaming crap.

More lies:

"With muzzle velocities that are often greater than standard long guns"

Here's a chart of bullet velocities for standard long guns versus military rounds.

Standard (Hunting/Target Shooting)

.270 = 3011 fps

22-250 = 4000 fps

.243 = 3342 fps

300 WM = 3080 fps

30-06 = 2831 fps

Common Military Rounds (these are avaiable to civilians)

7.62x39 mm = 2350 fps

5.56x45 mm = 3150 fps

5.45x39 mm = 2800 fps

7.62x51 mm = 2674 fps

The dreaded ".50 cal" = 2800 fps

Boy, look at how much faster the military rounds are than the standard long gun rounds. You go ahead and keep believing the lies. I'll stick to the truth.

"Assault rifles and shotguns often have pistol grips and folding stocks and are typically lighter and more concealable than standard long guns."

I saw it mention the word assault rifle but still no definition like she asked for. YAFI!

Now go snivel about it to somebody else.

You still don't see the difference? Do us all a favor and stay in that shithole state of yours you call a home and stop trying to infect the real world with this bullshit. Now go about your freedom hating that you do so well.

IMHO, that's utter insanity.

I never said that guns should be "totally unregulated."

Although anti-gun lobbyists who use the car analogy are pushing for additional controls, laws that really did treat guns like cars would be much less restrictive, on the whole, than what we have now. Gun control advocates who push that argument either don't realize the logical consequences or their own argument, or don't really believe their own words.

As David Kopel pointed out: "A few days after the Columbine High School murders, Steve Abrams deliberately drove his Cadillac onto a playground in Costa Mesa, California, killing a 3-year-old and a 4-year-old. No one showed up on television to claim that General Motors, car owners in general, or anyone other than Steve Abrams was responsible for this crime. Politicians did not try to use Abrams' murderous act to create a campaign issue or stir up support for restrictions on law-abiding car owners. If gun owners were treated like car owners, they would not be vilified by smug moral imperialists with the energetic assistance of the president and most of the national news media. Sad to say, that would be progress."

Most gun-related death are intentional while most car-related deaths are accidental. This one fact should suggest different regulatory schemes.

By the way, I would no more register the guns in my safe than the books in my library - and essentially for the same reasons.

Warm regards,

Katarina

"laws that really did treat guns like cars would be much less restrictive, on the whole, than what we have now."
Not even close to true. Show us any state that mandates gun owner insurance....or currently demands gun registration and notification of gun transfers.

"As David Kopel"
That would be the David Kopel who turns up in Crazy Bill Buckley's National Review from time to time to tell his idiotic readers why no gun laws are needed after some public event (such as Columbine) makes it abundantly clear that laws are needed....

"By the way, I would no more register the guns in my safe than the books in my library"
Gee, wonder how many of those books have ISBN numbers?

"Show us any state that mandates gun owner insurance....or currently demands gun registration and notification of gun transfers."

Show me a state where it is a felony to bring a car onto a campus. Likewise, we don't ban autos because they are underpowered, or overpowered, or because they're made with low-quality metal, or because that can hold more than ten gallons of gas at any given time.

Overall, treating guns like cars would see a massive deregulation of firearms. For example, just about anybody can go to the DMV and a driver license with very little hassle. This is in stark contrast to, say, getting a gun license in New York city. It is practically impossible for the average New Yorker to get a gun license.

Just to make sure, I am not advocating that we treat guns like firearms. These are two completely different categories of products, and it would be foolish to apply one regulatory scheme to the other.

Mr. Benchley asked: "Gee, wonder how many of those books have ISBN numbers?"

I do not understand how that is relevant to registration since an ISBN is not a unique tracking number. What exactly do you mean?

"Show me a state where it is a felony to bring a car onto a campus."
Of course, cars have a purpose other than mayhem. Guns don't.

"Likewise, we don't ban autos because they are underpowered, or overpowered, or because they're made with low-quality metal"
The hell we don't...ever hear of DOT safety regulations? Trry going to your car dealer and buying a car with a 15 hp engine....or one without brakes.

"Overall, treating guns like cars would see a massive deregulation of firearms."
Again, not even close to true. Drivers are licensed, cars are registered, and all title transfers have to be reported...and drivers are expected to carry insurance...

"Show me a state where it is a felony to bring a car onto a campus."
Of course, cars have a purpose other than mayhem. Guns don't.

Where are you from again? Guns have many more good purposes than they do bad Benchy. If you think that guns are only used for one thing only then I truly feel sorry for you.

Edited to Add: For anyone interested tune into the History Channel tonight @ 8pm ET/PT to watch 'FDR's Secret War'. It's about the greatest manipulator of our time. You've got to love the History Channel. Tells it like it is.

Mr. B: "Of course, cars have a purpose other than mayhem. Guns don't."

I know people who have used guns to defend themselves, their families, and their lawfully acquired property. That is a a purpose "other than mayhem."

Mr. B: "Trry going to your car dealer and buying a car with a 15 hp engine...."

Here ya go!
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/
Check out the all terrain vehicles (ATVs) for sale. An engine on an ATV is typically 15 HP.

No license required, no demonstration of "need," no federal background check, etc. Just walk into the dealership, plop down your money and away you go. (It may not be exactly legal to operate on a public highway, but that is different question.)

It is legal to own and drive an unregistered vehicle on your own property. No license required.

Warm regards,

Katarina

"I know people who have used guns to defend themselves,"
Usually from people with guns...

"Check out the all terrain vehicles (ATVs) for sale. An engine on an ATV is typically 15 HP. "
And can you drive an ATV on a street?

"It may not be exactly legal to operate on a public highway, but that is different question."
The hell it is.


"It is legal to own and drive an unregistered vehicle on your own property."
Beep! Beep! Watch out for the flower bed! Jeeze, there must be 12 times as many gun nuts that drag this dreary bit of nonsense out every month as there EVER were unregistered vehicles on private property... It seems like every other day somebody cranks out this bit of horseshit.

Mr. B: "Usually from people with guns..."

Actually, not in the cases that I am thinking about. But in any event, criminals inclined to commit violence tend to ignore gun laws anyway.

Mr. B: "And can you drive an ATV on a street?"

Actually depends on the street. Driving on back country roads might not be a problem. However, you could undoubtedly drive it on a public road and not get a ticket *if it were an emergency*.

The issue was not whether an ATV is street legal or not. The question was whether one can walk into a dealership and buy a vehicle with a 15 HP engine. I proved that you could, Mr. Smartypants.

Let's face it, Mr. Benchley, you dont want guns regulated anyway. You want them private ownership of firearms banned altogether, right?

Warm regards,

Katarina

"The issue was not whether an ATV is street legal or not. "
The hell it isn't.

"Let's face it, Mr. Benchley, you dont want guns regulated anyway. You want them private ownership of firearms banned altogether, right? "
You know, if gun nuts didn't spend so much time telling me what I'm saying, they might read what I actually do say once in awhile. I have to admit, though, I've never come away from one of these exchanges thinking "Gee, there's somebody I'd trust with a weapon."

Another one for the good side joins the club. Opposition is continuing to mount against you Benchy. There must be at least 20 or 30 people on this site in the Dungeon alone who oppose you. You are lucky to have one or two allies. You want to know what the funniest thing is? This place is for democrats. Guess your views of the Democratic Party aren't the same as the rest of the majority. Hahahahaha!

FYI: For anyone interested tune into the History Channel tonight @ 8pm ET/PT to watch 'FDR's Secret War'. It's about the greatest manipulating elitist piece of shit of our time. You've got to love the History Channel. Tells it like it is.

and wobbly as hell....she thinks guns are more strictly regulated than cars, and her proof is that there are ATVs? Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

"You want to know what the funniest thing is? This place is for democrats."
And yet the RKBA crowd seems only to dredge up shit from right wing cesspools like Newsmax or the Washington Times...or GospelPlow. And the only politicans they can point to that suppport their horseshit are not just Republicans but the scummiest Republicans....AshKKKroft, Lott, and DeLay. Not to mention far right wing racist crazies like Larry Pratt and Ted Nugent.

"Guess your views of the Democratic Party aren't the same as the rest of the majority"
Gee, and yet I had no problem listing dozens and dozens of prominent Democrats who support gun control...while the "pro gun Democrats" list fell apart after half a dozen names...and was mostly Zell Miller-type DINOS, and Dr. Dean, whose position is closer to mine than yours.

Besides, I was working and agitating for civil rights back when Strom Thurmond and his fellow Dixiecrats were the loudest part of the party....being in the righteous minority again don't make me skip a beat...especially when I see the same arguments (and even most of the same racist pieces of shit) in the gun rights crowd.

Besides, I was working and agitating for civil rights back when Strom Thurmond and his fellow Dixiecrats were the loudest part of the party....being in the righteous minority again don't make me skip a beat...especially when I see the same arguments (and even most of the same racist pieces of shit) in the gun rights crowd.

Sure you were (wink, wink)

And now you just sit on your ass all day and claim to know everything about guns when you yourself are to afraid to even pick one up. Yeah, okay!

But remember, I am not relying on lies put out by racist pieces of shit like Larry Pratt...and you ARE.

What's that? Still no hard proof that Larry is racist? That's what I thought.

Keep on sticking up for Pratt...

There must be at least 20 or 30 people on this site in the Dungeon alone who oppose you.

Big fat hairy deal. Many DU-ers who favor reasonable gun control stay out of the J/PS board because the discussions get downright nasty sometimes.

...we know that right wing asswipes from sites like highroadrage.com come trolling over here with regularity...and when they get tombstoned, come right back again.

Besides, it ain't the numbers but the quality, CO...and you're worth more than the whole rotten RKBA crowd yourself.

I'm blushing...... :-)

Thanks for supplying the evidence to support it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

K: "By the way, I would no more register the guns in my safe than the books in my library"

Mr. B: "Gee, wonder how many of those books have ISBN numbers?"

You still have not answered my question. What's one got to do with the other?

Front page of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

A man was walking with his daughter when the suspect "approached them and attempted to rob them," said Clayton County police Lt. Joseph Woodall.

"The victim pulled his own firearm and fired some rounds at the suspect," Woodall said.

The suspect, who was in his late teens or 20s, died at the scene. "He still had in his hand a stolen Glock pistol," Woodall said.

The man who shot the suspect has not been charged. The names of the two men have not been released.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/clayton/1203/03shooting.html

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Norm

Another family made safer by guns....

"A man is in custody after reportedly kidnapping two children at gunpoint, NewsChannel5 reported.
The incident happened at a home located at East 83rd Street and Quincy Avenue.
Police said the man was armed when he took the children, ages 5 and 7, away from their mother. When police arrived at the scene, the man had fled."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=387&ncid=387&e=5&u=/ibsys/20031202/lo_wews/1901939

"Police arrested Anthony Stone on Mulberry Street Tuesday afternoon, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported.
According to investigators, Stone has been wanted for questioning in connection with a fatal shooting in Lincoln Heights in May.
Another teen was shot and seriously injured, but he survived."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=2&u=/ibsys/20031202/lo_wlwt/1902673

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I'm here to discuss issues. Any rule violations I see get reported to the moderators. Regardless of a person's position on the issue - I've used the "Alert" on both pro-gun and pro-control posters.

"A string of six armed robberies in about three hours Tuesday abruptly came to an end when a quick-thinking gas station cashier ducked into his bulletproof booth and electronically locked the store door so the gunman couldn't leave.
'He said, `Open the door!' '' cashier Kashif Niaz said. 'I said, `I'm not going to. I'm going to call 911.' ''
Police arrived within minutes at the Mobil station off the Palmetto Expressway at Northwest 47th Avenue. They had been pursuing the gunman, and two accomplices outside, since the heists had begun around 8:30 a.m."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/7398882.htm

"A 19-year-old man was fatally wounded early Wednesday after he tried to run away from two men who wanted to rob him.
Police said the victim and his girlfriend were in a parked car in the 9700 block of Clamp around 2:30 a.m. when two men approached them.
The men ordered the couple out of the car and demanded cash from then, police said.
When the victim tried to run away, he was shot and killed by one of the men, police said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031203/lo_ksat/1903408

"A shooting victim walked into a doughnut shop seeking medical help Tuesday night on the Southwest Side.
Employees at a Dunkin Donuts at 1419 S. W. Military Drive quickly called 911 after a man in his 20s walked into the business at 9 p.m. saying he had been shot. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ibsys/20031203/lo_ksat/1903545&e=1&ncid=

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/120203_local_storerob.html

ABC13 Eyewitness News
(12/02/03 - HOUSTON) — Some would-be robbers picked the wrong store to target Monday afternoon. Three men allegedly tried to rob the Rocket Plumbing Supply store on Jensen near King in northeast Houston at around 4:30pm Monday. The store owner, however, was armed and fought back. She ducked behind a door frame and opened fire. <snip>

As the old saying goes: "God made man. Samuel Colt made them equal."

"Local - KGTV TheSanDiegoChannel.com
"A man is dead and his estranged wife is in a hospital after an attempted murder and suspected suicide in Encanto, 10News reported.
The couple was arguing, when the man shot his wife, then turned the gun on himself, police said. He died at the home, according to 10News. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031203/lo_kgtv/1903770

"A man arrested in the shooting of two children at a playground has told the police the gunshot was an accident.
The man, Sammy Keywan Mixson, 19, of Jersey City said he was trying to move the handgun from his jacket pocket to his sweater when it went off accidentally, Sgt. Edgar Martinez, a police spokesman, said yesterday.
The single shot on Thanksgiving Day at the Booker T. Washington housing complex passed through the right arm of a 9-year-old boy on the monkey bars and then punctured the leg of an 11-year-old girl coming down a slide."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/03/nyregion/03JERS.html?ex=1071118800&en=d3661474d8063cd3&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

More good work for "conservation" by "sportsmen"

"OLUMBUS (AP) -- A deer hunter was killed and two others were wounded on the opening day of Ohio's gun season for deer, the state Division of Wildlife said.
James Miller, 51, of Utica, was found in a wooded area in southern Knox County, officials said. Miller was hunting alone and walking out of the woods when his gun accidentally went off and killed him Monday, said Knox County Sheriff Dave Barber. Miller was hit in the chest, the wildlife division said Tuesday.
David Ormeroid, 52, of Marysville, was shot accidentally by another hunter, Johnny James, also of Marysville, while hunting in a field in Union County on Monday, officials said. Ormeroid underwent surgery for a buttocks wound at Grant Medical Center in Columbus and was expected to recover, said Jim Quinlivan, a wildlife division law enforcement supervisor.
While the shooting reportedly occurred 20 minutes before the hunting season legally began, the wildlife division said no charges were filed pending further investigation. "

http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=1547587

"A 16-year-old boy and his father were shot to death in the parking lot of a San Bernardino bargain mall Monday, only hours after the father had been released from jail.
San Bernardino police investigators, armed with a videotape of the shooting and statements from numerous witnesses, said that a 17-year-old male gang member was the suspected shooter and that they have launched a regionwide search for the youth.   
"We know who we're looking for," said Sgt. Brian Boom, head of the department's homicide unit.
The noontime shooting apparently occurred after the gang member and the victims had a verbal exchange inside the Waterman Discount Mall, said police Lt. Frank Mankin. The boy, who was not identified, and his 34-year-old father, whom police identified as Odrum Brooks, were shopping with another man inside the mall when they encountered four males, and an "altercation" ensued. "

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-twodead2dec02,1,2956046.story?coll=la-headlines-california

"A Palm Beach County woman accused of setting up the robbery of a bingo-jackpot winner was found hiding early Tuesday under blankets in a closet in her mother's Boynton Beach home. Natia Johnson, 23, who was featured on an America's Most Wanted segment on "Bad Girls" Saturday night, was the last of four suspects wanted in connection with the August shooting and attempted robbery of Pamela Anderson, a Hobe Sound mother of nine.
Johnson, who has a prior conviction for robbery and multiple check forgery arrests, had been moving around since the shooting in Hobe Sound, Martin County Sheriff's Sgt. Jenell Atlas said.
Sheriff's officials say they followed Anderson and a friend from a West Palm Beach bingo hall after Anderson collected a $5,900 jackpot, then tried to rob Anderson outside her Hobe Sound home. Anderson said one of the men pointed a gun and shot her before she realized what was happening.
Anderson is still suffering complications from the single gunshot wound that damaged her spleen, kidney, heart, and small intestine."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/1202bingo.html