DON'T KNOW IF HE HAD A CONCEALED WEAPONS PERMIT

John Tabutt, Florida man, mistook fiancee for robber, shot and killed her 1 day before wedding

BY Rich Schapiro DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER Updated Saturday, October 10th 2009, 1:12 PM

On the eve of his wedding, a Florida man heard a burglar in his home, grabbed a gun and opened fire. Tragically, the supposed intruder turned out to be his live-in fiancee - who died in front of him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/10/10/2009-10-10_police_florida_man_shot_fiancee_1_day_before_wedding_says_he_thought_she_was_int.html

He was in his house, no Concealed permit needed.

And this is already posted, you should read the threads before posting.

And why ALL CAPS????

Did you have a question that makes sense?

He disobeyed one of the rules for gun safety - ALWAYS BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET. Never fire if you aren't 100% certain of what you are shooting.

Having a gun is a serious responsibility, and bad use can get people killed. So can not handling electric appliances correctly, not driving safely, not swimming safely, not swallowing correctly, not bicycling correctly, not watching where you are walking, etc.

.

obviously shouldn't have had a gun at all since he clearly was not a clear thinker.

Most states that issue concealed handgun licenses also have laws that keep the identities of the holders secret. I believe this is done to obscure the number of CHL holders involved in crimes.

I get the feeling from many gun lovers that they are itching for the opportunity to play Dirty Harry and be a hero. Maybe that's what this guy was thinking.

Or is it just bald assertion?

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Those are two states that not only report the number of licenses issued, but also the number revoked, and for what reason.

found one more- http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-77621--,00.html

and another- http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/concealcarry/docs/07_cc_annual_rpt.pdf

In many states the information about individual license holders is not available to the general public or the news media. A private citizen can't go to the government and find out if a neighbor or coworker has a permit to carry a concealed handgun. A reporter can't go to a government agency find out if a specific person accused of a crime is a CHL holder.

The information at the Texas DPS site is meaningless without knowing how many permit holders and non-permit holders are in Texas.
The Florida and Michigan sites confirm that most CHL holders have their licenses revoked because they committed a felony.
The last link didn't work.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/demoreportsfy08.htm

# License Applications Issued (PDF)
# License Applications Denied (PDF)
# Licenses Suspended (PDF)
# Licenses Revoked (PDF)

314,574 active licenses, 73,090 issued in 2008. 348 revoked. (0.11%)

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/PDF/ActLicAndInstr/ActiveLicandInstr2008.pdf
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/PDF/2008%20Fiscal/ByRace/FY08R-SLicRevoked.pdf

Why should you be able to see who has a CHL? Can you go to the DMV and see if your neighbor has a driver's license?

As do my co-workers. Who cares.

But no, I don't think every CPL holder should be forced to divulge any information whatever about their status.


State patrol and county sherrifs know if they pull you over or respond to your home. That's plenty.

But ONLY because I chose to divulge that information. There are other people that I don't tell, for reasons of my own. And there are many others where the subject just never came up, and neither of us gives a damn.

In Texas having a CHL just isn't that big a deal.

Today, at a store my wife had to show her ID to the manager. As she pulled out her driver's license, her CHL also dropped out on the manager's desk and in view of several of the staff. (We were the only ones in the store at the time.) While he worked on her account, the staff and we talked about CHLs. Two of them were planning on getting theirs, and one had his. It just isn't that big of a deal down here.

...my best to make it a big deal.

...everyone has the right to know if someone near they may shoot them in a fit of rage. Yes, I believe it is my business.

...about it? That sort of thing happens all the time. What about the story posted here on this forum about the law abiding concealed handgun license holder who shot his neighbor in a dispute about leaves. This is not an isolated incident, things like this happen all the time.

Statistically speaking CCW permit holders are less likely to injure you than police officers are.

Statistically speaking CCW permit holders are less likely to injure you than police officers are.

Okay, provide a link to those statistics. The NRA website doesn't count.

Feel free to look them up.

...think you could back any of your statements up.

Coming from the guy who has provided zero evidence for the outlandish assertions he's made in damn near every post.

..

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

and the monthly report for FL
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html
(other reports available here-http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/reports.html)

That holders of concealed carry permits shoot other people without legal justification (e.g. "in a fit of rage") "all the time," that is, and that the case of the LTC holder in Massachusetts is "not an isolated incident."

Bear in mind there are several million CCW permit holders in the US (best estimate, maybe 8.5 million). If there's really a significant risk of any individual CCW permit holder going off the rails, we should see at least hundreds, if not thousands, of reports every year. I'm extremely skeptical that there are that many, though I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Why not? Utilities bills? Sure.


What possible reason could you have for wanting to know if someone has a CPL?

...my utility bills or library records can't kill people. I believe I have a right to know if the person I'm dealing with has a weapon that they might kill me with. I think everyone should has that right.

Why do you want to keep it a secret? What are you hiding?

Really any criminal record should probably be reported to your neighbors under your rationale.

...people you might be right. The fact that one of their neighbors may have a gun under their coat is a danger to them and they have the right to know.

...beer, Dave.

don't you?

So yeah, you're surrounded by weapons someone could potentially use to attempt to kill you with.
That makes about as much sense.


And no, you don't have that right.

Why do I keep a concealed weapon a secret? Because if I encounter a situation where a firearm may be necessary, I want the initiative, and I want the option to choose whether or not to introduce the weapon to that situation. If I'm at the bank and an incoming robber wants to eliminate opposition, I'd rather not be shot in the back before I even know anything is wrong. That's the whole point of a concealed weapon. If you don't like it, tough shit. Option #B is; I open carry.

I'm not necessarily advocating it, just testing the waters.

Let's say we address this ill-founded worry of yours by allowing you to submit queries to your state's CCW permit database. In the interest of "right to know," the state also keeps a record of anyone who submits such a query, and is bound to inform CCW permit holders of the identity of anyone who's submitted an inquiry about them.

This has the added advantage that this provides a record to work off in the event a CCW permit holder has his gun(s) stolen: those people who inquired about his status can be readily identified and investigated to see whether they should be considered suspects. After all, we don't want legally owned guns landing on the black market, do we?

Moreover, publishing identifying information about CCW permit holders should either be a punishable offense, or any person doing so should automatically be considered an accessory to any subsequent theft of one or more firearms belonging to a CCW permit holder whose identifying information was thus make public knowledge.

That sounds like a possibly fair compromise to me. What say you?

or get caught jay walking.

Did you notice the number of licenses revoked in Florida after the license was issued?

In case you didn't let me review.

From October 1, 1987 - August 31, 2009, a total of 1,593,602 concealed carry licenses were issued.

Of that total 4,317 were revoked because of a crime committed after the license was issued. 167 were revoked because the crime involved a firearm.

Statistically the number of licenses revoked is in the mud.

...that concealed handgun license holders aren't the saints you gun lovers would like everyone to believe. I bet those same statistics would prove that CHL holders commit crimes at the same rate as non-CHL holders.

...are those Dave?

if you wish to disprove my point, please find some data to back up your statement.

...Texas Governor Rick Perry signed a law that keeps the identities of concealed handgun license holders a secret from the general population. Other states have similar laws.

If being armed is such a deterrent to crime, why keep it a secret? Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

It makes people like you more vulnerable, because criminals have a way of finding out you are unarmed. It makes my house more likely to be robbed when I am away, by people looking for firearms, which are generally quite portable, and valuable on the black market.

Those laws were enacted after a newspaper managed to obtain an obscure, but then-public record, and printed it along with a front page story.

But they already don't know that because the guns are CONCEALED. A public list is just a shopping list for burglars.

http://www.bullshido.org/Arnold%27s_Law

One of these years, I should really start compiling which motion picture character antis invoke most. Right now, I'd say it's a four-way split between Rambo, James Bond, Dirty Harry and the archetypal John Wayne character, with Jason Bourne trailing very far behind.

Was that a gut feeling? Feeling isn't knowing.

...if you have facts to present then present them.