Silly Things Grabbers Say: "The criminal will just take your gun away from you and use it on you."

It is amazing how some grabbers seem to think that street goblins are somehow super-ninjas who can move faster than bullets to snatch the gun from a defender's hand. So they want us to face violent goblins with no defense other than begging the goblin to be merciful.

Yes, sometimes - rarely - a defender does lost the gun to the goblin. It even happens to cops occasionally. As a general rule, the goblin runs away, or gets shot. I have known a number of people who have defended themselves using guns, but I haven't known anybody who has been disarmed by a goblin.

It is pretty easy to prevent a goblin from taking your gun. Shoot the goblin first.

Now, if your morals won't let you shoot goblins, then you do need to leave the gun at the gun show. Never bluff with a gun. That is one of the Holy Commandments of Gun-Worshippers. Thou Shalt Not Display Thy Gun In Vain.

lots of goblins out that night.

is a "grabber" a gun control advocate?

Most gun control advocates are actually faily reasonable and will discuss positions. But grabbers are so extreme that they say lots of silly stuff.

Other than to provoke a flame war?

Remember, I am talking about extremists on the gun control side.

if we don't let them.

You better identify me at distance, as a Goblin. Carry open, you are an IDIOT!

Likely your training was with a complient partner who stood in the stance(s) that you drilled for in your dojo. I don't think that I will present you with what you were trained for. I would be interested in discussion how you plan to take a gun away from someone when that gun is pointed at you. If I consider you a life threat, I will be shooting, not holding the gun and talking.

Texas does not have an open-carry law, so I do carry concealed. However, even if we did have open-carry, I would likely still carry concealed.

Of course, I do practice situation awareness and do make every attempt to spot a goblin who has targeted me while he is still at a distance.

My coresident elves seem to take care of them.

Seriously, open carry is clearly a mixed bag. Its better than nothing in some situations, in others it starts the situation. I am out in the twigs and carry for snakes with scales, not the two footed kind.

An open carry guy just shot down a would be mass murderer in Richmond Va recently.

Your fancy disarm techniques work if you are trained in them. How many criminals have this kind of training? And I'm sure you know there are counter-techniques to avoid loosing your gun to someone who has closed the distance and is trying to take your gun away. It's a good way for a would-be disarmer to get held in place and shot in the head.

You must be thinking most badguys are former Russian Spetznaz.

And I guess you think all cops and soldiers are idiots.

And cops often need five of them to deal with a methhead, or PCP freak.

So I'm not going to bother.
At least if you knew how much you don't know, you would know that much, but you don't.

Period. How bout if I siddle up to you, and I have a knife to your gut? Tough guy, refuse your gun to me.

Like all goblins, you will want me alone, isolated. But to try to approach me in a parking lot will give you away. I don't allow people to "siddle up" to me like that in the open. Then I would challenge you before you were up to me.

I have enough common fucking sense to know that things don't always go the way you want them to and even with the best training, who wins often comes down to dumb luck and nothing else. The best trained man can still be killed by a punk with a knife or a 12 year old wit a Lorcin and lucky shot.

I don't let people siddle up to me in dark alleys. I move, I angle, I circle. If someone smiles tells me they want to talk to me, I circle around behind them as tell them to stay away from me because they are making me uncomfortable. If they want to think I am kind of a dick, I can live with that.

There are ways to deal with people trying to get close, and there are ways to deal with someone who has gotten too close. A gun is just a tool in a fight. A badguy with a broken elbow still looses even if he never gets shot.

The last guy who tried to hold me in place got hit with a car.

I don't let strangers in the open get too close to me either.

And the martial arts are highly over-rated.

Most of you concealed permit guys are cool, some arent. I dont hate YOU guys. But, along with you, are jerks.

who was defending himself against a goblin. You claimed that if you were a goblin that you could take my gun away.

Bury his Pakistani KABAR in yer occipital orbit and then embrace you in his arms while whispering shhhhhhhhhh shhhhhhhhhh in your ear , as your now lifeless fingers drop your pistol to the ground .

Then he puts all your ammo and gear in his tactical wheelbarrow and its off to the next caper .

I'm not going to bother with you any more.

I'm starting to think we may be dealing with a high school student.

Look at his new post. He claims a spec ops guy was trying to kill him. And he is still alive.

They also told me he had a weapons violation. I knew, cuz he had shown me the news article, that it was for being drunk, on the road, in his sherman tank. He parked it, and waited till he was sober, to get out. The cops said, that anyone with the resources he did, I should just avoid. Good luck. My employer said that I should wear a flakjacket to work. The police said that they could NOT tell me that since he is so dangerous, that I could shoot on sight, if he was following me. SHIT HAPPENS.

immediately, cuz he had enlisted his filthy rich father, who owned the corp, that had the companies line of credit, to cut off funds. I laughed. The company was sold two weeks later.

Your previous post already had it past the redline.

second degree. First time in history. I could go on for hours.



Did I mention, the gun I used to protect myself, I bought from the spec ops guy, before he went off, so if I had done him, it would have been his own gun. Irony.

Glad to hear you can live with people thinking you're kind of a dick........

If you meet the legal criteria for self-defense, I am not going to try holding the gun on you and telling you to freeze or anything like that. Gun comes out, bullets start hitting you. Now it is your turn.

If you are close, my gun will be at my waist with my wrist pressed against my waist as I shoot. Laser equiped so I don't have to bring it to eye level to aim. Put red dot on you and pull trigger. If you are really close, then I don't need to aim, just point. I will not be sticking it out at arm's length like in the movies. Snub nose so there is no barrel for you to grab for leverage. Try grabbing the gun and you get your hand blown off, in addition to the bullets that will already be in your torso.

Gun is carried inside a pocket. Since it is a revolver, if need be I can shoot from inside the pocket without it jamming.

My gun is concealed. You don't know I have one. You aren't Superman with X-ray eyes.

I will only use it for self-defense. Remember that my OP is about grabbers who claim that goblins can disarm citizens if the citizen tries to defend themselves with a gun. Now you are trying to make me the agressor? No go.

so what. Who cares. But the gun freaks are starting to tie it all in with armed insurrection. I dont play that game.

If I went into a bar it would be as a designated driver. I don't drink. And I try to avoid places where trouble is likely to break out.

Or in this case, "the blood in the bars". Yawn.

I'll go take a nap while I wait.

Guns have been allowed in bars in many places for decades, I don't think there has been any sudden jump in the numbers of gunshots in bars.

over guys threatening armmed insurrection, with grins, and guns, will see your guns GONE.

How did we get from firearms in bars to armed insurrection?

How do you intend to seize those arms? You'll have to violate at least two, possibly 3 to 5 of the first ten Amendments to the Constitution. Are you going to send unarmed people to do it? That won't work out very well. And if you send armed minions, you have proved that the opposition is correct and thus entitled to use their Rights to defend themselves.

Rock, meet hard place. Talk amongst yerselves...

And the bar thing, is in response to one that thought me alarmist, to not like guns in bars. In fact, didnt the guys in the old west turn in their guns at the door of the bar?

I would say that we need all the Political Intimidation we can get, from any cornor we can get it from.

I'll contribute the first $500 towards your one-way ticket to North Korea.

Bu-bye now.

It just happened to take place in a bar. Drug deal can take place almost anywhere, and can go bad anywhere. This example has zero relevance to legal carry.

And it has no relevance to a criminal supposedly being able to disarm a defending citizen.

How protected do you think they were? That not ONE of them made a hit, tells you about how effective they are in real life situations.

In most states, CCW holders have to qualify, live-fire, on a range. I scored 250 out of a possible 250, but so do lots of people.

self-defense or shooting skills classes.

Most of the fast draw types in the wild west were self taught. And you start badmouthing goblins as stupid and weak, and you gonna get a big surprise.



And here is a small admission. When I learned to shoot my weapon, I didnt even BOTHER to learn to aim. I learned to shoot from the hip. Fast, and accurate. Cuz, thats all you're gonna get, when the time comes.

O.K., that clears up everything.

I think we're done here. See ya.

Hipshooting and point-shooting are two entirely different things.

Furthermore, developing skill with a gun takes practice. That requires a range and ammunition. Goblins usually don't have access to a range or a lot of ammo. Hell, a lot of goblins are still holding the gun sideways because that looks cool.

It is after all their craft, theri profession, their livelihood. Their life!

You don't make much knocking over a C-store, or off a burglary, and drugs take most of what they get from theft.

That would be the biggest stumbling block for someone who already knows it all .

that takes more effort than being a lazy asshole.

In public, in a crowd, at a political rally, and you intend on intimidationg the public? I wnat to destroy you.

If you meet the legal criteria for self-defense...

And if you do meet that criteria, then I am justified in defending myself with lethal force. Which means that I don't go to prison.

And when you start blasting, you had BETTER have a DAMN good reason for emptying your gun. And when they found your expounding on the issue here, they would REALLY crucify you.

I must have a reasonable fear of my life or grave bodily harm. I have never said differently. You are the one who made the claim to be able to disarm me if I tried to defend myself against a goblin.

That is TOO damn late.

Victim selection, isolate and approach (sometimes called stalk), attack. The "isolate and approach" phase is what gives goblins away. You want me alone and withing striking range and your movements give you away. I won't let you withing striking range unchallenged.

was threatening me with it, I would go to prison, if I protected myself. Even after recieving the warning, from the police, of his intention to do a shooting spree. So, I just assume, that you guys dont get special privileges.

but most often they are well-intentioned but ill-trained and/or ill-informed on the exact laws for self-defense.

In general, if you perceive a threat to yourself, you are justified in using force to protect yourself. Do NOT rely on the average police officer for legal advice. Always, ALWAYS look up the laws for your state and locale for yourself, and if required, consult with a lawer who specializes in such cases.

No offense intended to all the LEO's on this forum who ARE well versed in the laws.

A: 6' 6" 350 lbs NFL linebacker is being attacked, no weapons, by a 5' 4" 125 lbs pencil thin geek. NFL guy can't go for a weapon.

B: Other way around. Above geek is being attacked by the above linebacker. Geek can use a weapon, including a gun.

I have already said that I will only shoot when a person meet the legal criteria of self-defense - in Texas.

We have open carry and I have seen idiots sitting at the counter at Waffle House with their backs to the door. To open carry you need no training at all.

In a restaurant I sit where I can see the door.

My degree of watchfulness varies according to the level of safety that I percieve. Some places I pretty much relax, some places I am extremely watchful. An example of extreme watchfulness would be using an ATM in South Dallas at 11PM. An example of relaxed (but still in public) would be at a movie.

maybe I am pollyanna, but I talked to gangbangers, tough guys. Hard asses. No gun, and I never felt fear. Walked around Compton as a kid. Followed railroad tracks for many miles on bikes. Went to a school that bussed all the hoods from a closed down bad school, with racial riots, and daily cop prescence at lunch. And I never been paranoid, to the degree you are.

And still doesn't prove that a goblin can easily disarm a competent armed citizen.

:scared:

Sounds like you are admitting that as an attacker, you'd prefer that your victim did not have a gun. Now just how does that square with folks wanting to take all guns from all non-criminals?

If there was a guaranteed technique to remove guns from folks, then I'm sure that all of our police forces would be using it, instead of spending millions of dollars on arming themselves. If you have a secret guaranteed method to remove guns from folks, then why have you not shared it with the world and saved untold thousands of lives and prevented millions of crimes? Does it work as well if you are an old lady with arthritis or do you have to be in top shape and practice your technique several hours a week?

As far as a guaranteed anything, lots of folks can sink a 6 foot putt or hit a free throw during practice, but cannot do it during the heat of a real competition. When the person you're disarming has a real loaded gun and you know that if your move does not work they are going to use it to shoot you, in this case, at very close range, your move will have to work with a major pucker factor that it never had to deal with in your basement or dojo, where ever it is you practice.

But, you will not know. And if a guy REALLY is a bad guy, like who you are carrying for in the first place, he has a gun, or a knife, or a taser, and will not telegraph that to you, till you are unaware.

Just like the lion has to get within charging range of the zebra, so the goblin has to get close enough to me to attack. And it is during the stalk that he tips his hand.

Political assassins are not street criminals. Different methods are needed. I am extremely unlikely to be marked for assassination. Random crime is my greatest threat, so that is what I orient myself toward. If I am ever specifically marked for murder, then I am just screwed.

The guy had spec ops training, and demolitions, as well as being a multimillionaire from demo patents. My grandfather was assassinated, in Compton, by a gang hazing crew. I do understand the real world.

Another internet ninja. Sigh.

And if I let you get THAT close without shooting you first (assuming I already had it pointed at you) then I have FAILED to properly use my weapon and defend myself.

the contents of a glock 19 into your body while that was ongoing. At 5 feet a persons head is a really big target. Next up, your brain is on a produce scale in a basement morgue.

Assume the female partner weak, well not a great idea.

Silly is silly, no matter which side it comes out of.

I agree with the op that being armed with a gun is more likely to protect you from an intruder than make you a victim of the intruder.

However, I disagree with the labeling ('grabber'), which tends to instigate arguments rather than discussions.

brought an assualt rifle to a place with children and presidents inside?

Charleton Heston rises up, from the grave, and grabs that stupid fuck, by the throat, and says to the guy, how dare you threaten to take the gun out of my cold dead hand. You gun guys BETTER get that lesson FAST. The guys threatening your right to own a weapon, is MOST threatened by that fool. That fool sent a shudder of dread, into average america. His provocative, intentionally intimidating stance, and especially, after it is learned that he is into armed insurrection dungeons and dragons, has set back every responsible concealed carrier. By years. If there were the NRA guy stepping out, to destroy that idiot intellectually, us normal folk would trust youall more. The belligerance, shown by gun rights dudes, DOES NOT help. You should be destroying all fools. Police your own.

Even if you carry always.

You are trying to change the subject.

I am speaking specifically about a citizen facing street crime. On this forum I have seen grabbers claim that the criminal will just take the citizen's gun away and use it on the citizen. It is the silliness of that statement that I am holding up for ridicule.

People taking open-carry guns to a political event are a different topic. Start your own thread for that.

And I look JUST like a nice guy. The only way to protect yourself, is just like the guy that said he keeps twirling, and bobbing and weaving, to assess. And still, you would not know I was a bad guy. They dont all look like freaks.

In a few minutes, I have to go to the store. I will park my car at the end of the lot, away from the other cars. (Very large parking lot) Inside the store, I won't really worry. Goblins rarely strike with lots of other people around. They like to be able to make a fast run-away after the strike, and that is hard to do if the store exit is five isles over and then 120 feet, with people in the way.

The most dangerous place will be the parking lot. I will exit the store and walk along a parking ilse that is at least two isles over from the one leading to my car. I will watch for anyone approaching me. After I have exited the isle I will turn toward my car. I will be in the open. If someone has been trying to approach me without attracting attention, they will then have to change their course to intercept me on my new course. Since my car is alone, they can't claim they are going to their own car.

If someone has changed course to intercept me, while they are still away I verbally challenge them, and tell them to please keep their distance. I look at them for body clues to their intentions. From that point, there is an established escalation protocol for self-defense. The goblin has been detected.

You say that you don't look like a goblin. Perhaps that is because you are not a goblin.

The general area is South Dallas, TX.

He was not even within shouting distance of the president, and no children were endagered. Get a grip.

You seem to have anger/fear managment issues. Please do not be a firearms owner.

legislation.

I'm all about equal opportunity excoriation for idiocy.

Keeps me busy around here.

do not trump a Citizens' Civil Rights. No matter how distasteful you may find this. That is one of the reasons you find Jewish lawers in the ACLU helping defending the rights of Arayan Nation scum-thugs.

And again, please point out what he did that endangered any person. Did he loose control of the firearm? Did he actully load it? Brandish it? Point it at anyone? What did he DO?

What should I do? Chastise him severely for being a law-abiding concerned Citizen who seems to be capable of peacefully exercising at least 4 (on edit: 10) Civil Rights AT THE SAME TIME? We should all be applauding his skill and moral courage in these times of politically-correct-outrage-du-jour.

And I am not at all reticent to gaze upon my own visage in the mirror while shaving in the morning.

Edit: And you have now dodged the question. Twice.

Again, what did he do that was wrong?

Three times. Yes, I keep count.

with a sidearm strapped on as well. He was just one day from a meeting of armmed insurrectionists. The black guy, was part of a radical group of gun freaks, that tie it into religion. The guy that thought Obama should be killed by God. They have a smirk, that tells all about their intentions, and level of respect for their fellow citizens. That you think NO policing is called for, till someone needs to be carried away by SS, of the FBI, is JUST what I am talking about. I didnt say anyone should be prosecuted. I am saying that the ignorance of lefties, in protecting the people out there, that dont use good judgement, hurts your cause, and then you blame everyone else, when you brought the heat down on YOURSELVES!

is astounding. It was not an "assault rifle", it was a semiautomatic military-style sporting rifle. "Assault rifles" by definition are select-fire and are out of the financial reach for a vast majority of Americans, and are illegal in some states.

Open carry in public, and in particular, in a crowd, gives NO warning. You had better have GOBLINdar.

claiming that they can disarm me.

If someone on the gun control advocate side wants to post silly stuff that the extremists on our side say, then have at it. I do ask that they post stuff that someone here has actually said, not made up stuff.

since pro gun extremists get their posts deleted and tombstoned.

But the gun isn't going to jump out of my pocket holster and start shooting. I just know that I can't use it due to all the people around. The gun is under my control and is no danger to the people around me.

Apparently those in law enforcement who happen to find themselves in crowds are "idiotic"

Yes, I will be packing.

POSTED: 8:43 am EDT October 13, 2009
UPDATED: 11:53 am EDT October 13, 2009

... The shooting occurred at about 1:30 a.m. outside a duplex in the 4900 block of Serafica Drive.

Investigators said Randy Masons told them he was working on his car when he saw two men approach, so he went inside and got his gun. Investigators said that when he came back outside, the two men beat him up and shot him in the arm with his own gun ...

http://www.wpbf.com/news/21280551/detail.html

One of the Holy Commandments of the Gun Worshippers is: Thou Shalt Not Show Thy Gun In Vain.

If you grab a gun, you have to ready to shoot with it. Obviously, he wasn't.

Also, if he was that afraid of the men, he should have stayed inside and called the police, with the gun ready if they broke in. Never, ever, seek a confrontation. Murphy can be a bastard at times.

Toguchi is Grandmaster of Okinawan Karate-do Goju-Ryu Shoreikan. The quote was made on Dec 15, 1972.

"You ask me if a man may become sufficiently skilled in the martial arts to empty-handedly defeat an opponent with a gun? My answer is, "Yes, of course this is possible. But in addition to skill, the martial artist must be very lucky. And the man with the gun must be very stupid.""

if you pull your weapon your life should be in danger and you should shoot it as soon as you are on target. Otherwise you are merely escalating the situation. (I can think of exceptions, but he made a good point.)

It's possible to take a firearm from a person pointing it at you. It's much harder when the person is shooting at you.

They teach that stuff by third grade, according to the anti's. Every criminal can just reach out and either take your gun or render it useless.

:sarcasm:
Just in case.

could disable in a heartbeat. If you grabbed the slide correctly and pushed the take down button and lever you can strip the slide from the gun.

if a person has closed that distance they should be well on the way to bleeding out from multiple hits and flipping a take down lever is not on the top of their to do list.

if you pull your weapon, plan on shooting it.

"If you pull your gun one of two things is going to happen. You are going to shoot someone, or you are about to get in a lot of trouble."

Our Department flatly refused to allow any officer who owned his own weapon to qualify with the Beretta over that very issue. It was black-listed.

From: It's much harder when the person is shooting at you.

To: It's much harder when the person is shooting you.

Fixed now. :toast:

yeah, I might. Never mind.