GUNS IN THE NEWS--December 5, 2003

AS CO LIBERAL SEZ:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to stories or articles from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er will be reported to the moderators.
8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

"A man was hospitalized Thursday afternoon following a shooting in southwest Oklahoma City, police said.
Police initially believed that a 3-year-old, who had been reported missing during the afternoon, had been kidnapped as part of the shooting plot, but the child was later found safe. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_koco/1906172

"Gem heist quickly loses its sparkle:
Arrests follow an attempt to rob gem shop"

"Police said Chambers, to be on the safe side, retreated to another part of the store and readied a weapon, just in case. Two other people were in the store with him.

Palacios and Morales reportedly came around the counter — Palacios with gun in hand — but when they saw all the employees waiting for them, the two men apparently decided to run for it."

http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2003/12/04/news/community/thu04.txt

"A local teenager died after he was shot and then hit by a car late Thursday.
The incident happened just after 11 p.m. near the intersection of Montana and Millrich avenues in Westwood, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported.
Police said Matthew Pierce, 18, of Boudinot Avenue was shot in the back.
Pierce staggered into the middle of Montana Avenue, where he was struck by a car, WLWT reported. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_wlwt/1906948

"Houston police are searching for two women believed to be involved in a deadly shooting at a southwest Houston apartment Thursday night.
Officials found one person dead inside an apartment near Mullins and Bellaire before 9 p.m.
Witnesses told officials they saw two women running away from the scene around that time. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_kprc/1906994

"The FBI is investigating a case in which someone sent hate mail to prominent black men, reported NewsChannel5.
Over the past two years, racially hateful mail has been sent to 30 black NFL players around the country. Most of the letters were postmarked in Cleveland.
Bob Hawk, of the Cleveland FBI office, said the letters had a common theme of discouraging relationships between black men and white women. Hawk also said that the letters said that if these relationships or dating of white women continue, black men will be shot, castrated or set on fire.
Most of the letters are signed, "angry white women" or "angry Caucasian women." "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=387&ncid=387&e=2&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_wews/1906401

Sounds like the Second Amendment Sisters....

anthing you say.

Emphasis mine.

Hawk also said that the letters said that if these relationships or dating of white women continue, black men will be shot, castrated or set on fire.

I think that classisfies this story as gun-related. After all, you can't shoot someone by throwing bullets at them......

required to satisfy some of the RKBA crowd...they won't be happy until some player is actually shot.

This is supposed to be guns in the news.

So I think it qualifies. Just like the story yesterday about the teacher who threatened to shoot her students.

Desperate.

Waynetta Nolan, 36, was convicted Wednesday of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/2683306/index.html?subid=10100242

Thank heavens she didn't have a gun, someone might have been injured!

thanks

An arrow, you can shoot with a slingshot, you can shoot a spitwad out of a straw. You can shoot dice, shoot the breeze, or just plain shoot your load. Please follow the rules YOU set forth- otherwise chaos will rule the world.

But anybody who wants to pretend the letter referred to dice or the breeeze is desperately full of it.

To fill out the "guns in the news" thread.

to pretend this wasn't yet another bigot with a gun threatening to shoot people with that gun...

Who did you think would possibly buy that "the letter talks about shooting dice" argument?

I am going to join the many who have you blocked. You used to be amusing, now your obnoxious.

Sounds like the Second Amendment Sisters....


Do you have anything to back that up at all?

No?

Thats ok, didnt think so.

Carry on.

...the next time a pro-gunner posts something nasty about Sarah Brady.

...and accusing an entire organization of being behind a massive letter drive threatening a slew of african american citizens.

Hell, yesterday I said Fiensteins policy of trying to ban weapons that rarely get used in crime was stupid. And I stand by that. But my disagreeing with her policies is way far off from me accusing her of a crime without any basis whatsoever.

between the freepers calling themselves the "Second Amendment Sisters" and decent people.

"We couldn't have said it better... Dear Second Amendment Sisters:
I got so angry I just had to write....Isn't it just great how all these mega-rich celebrities who could afford bodyguards can just yank away our possesions? .....I've finally had it with this unholy coalition of intrusive government and misguided celebrity airheads. I'm sick of drugged-addled actors and shyster lawyers trying to run my life, as if THEY knew what was better for me than I do. Yeah, right. "

http://www.sas-aim.org/letterweek/letter26.htm

"Second Amendment Sisters founder Kimberly Watson said the event grew out of postings on the Free Republic Web site by like-minded women....Like Free Republic itself, the protest drew a diverse crowd united in its distrust of government and loathing of President Clinton, whose impeachment was regularly invoked at the event.....Speakers included ....Larry Klayman of Judicial Watch, who found a way to tie the Second Amendment to President Clinton's sexual improprieties by implying that Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey and Gennifer Flowers and Clinton's other women could have warded off his advances had they only brandished weapons; and Yale Law School scholar and "More Guns, Less Crime" author John Lott."

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/05/15/moms/index2.html

You've proved nothing. I want you to show me something that even comes close to indicating that the SAS sent threatening letters to anyone.

...we'll expect a full apology from you to MrBenchley - OK?????

If Mr B can prove his allegations, then I'll appologize. I'll be extremely surprised, and disgusted, as I'd like to think the SAS are above that. But I will applogize, and subsequently be writing to the SAS to tell them how I feel about that.

got shown publicly for what it is, acid. I feel your pain.

You havent shown anything at all indicating that the SAS sent threatening letters to anyone.

You showed me two posts that indicate distrustfullness in the government, and a loathing for dumb celebrities.

Well hey, I dont trust the government, and I dislike celebrities. In my line of work I've been in close proximity to several (in the music business), and the vast majority are indeed stupid assholes. Stop the presses, the sterotype is true!

Now show me something where they threaten black men dating white women instead of another attempted smoke screen.

"You havent shown anything at all indicating that the SAS sent threatening letters to anyone."
No, all I did was show the sort of freeper scum bag who belongs to this group you are so vigorously defending. If you want to pretend that freepers don't send hate mail, you're welcome to delude yourself...but I doubt you'll fool anyone else here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/01/010120_youasked.html

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

So the Second Amendment Sisters are headed up by and largely comprised of freepers, who are damn near synonymous with hate mail....

'Nuff for me to see the resemblence.

..with all that spinning

I'm not trying to defend self-admitted freepers, or pretend they aren't synonymous with hate mail.

One wonders why a "Democrat" would be spending so much time trying to spin away the truth about what this ugly little bunch of slatternly loonies is: "Second Amendment Sisters founder Kimberly Watson said the event grew out of postings on the Free Republic Web site by like-minded women..."

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/05/15/moms/index2.html

"Marinelle W. Thompson, Founder/Director/Vice President mthompson@2asisters.org  
She is active with North Texas Chapter of Free Republic....."

http://www.sas-aim.org/membership/founders.htm

..right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round
You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round


I really dont care where the group got started at Bench. It's quite irrellevant to me. Your accusations of the SAS sending threatening letters are completely baseless and you know it. You can keep squawking and whining about FREE REPUBLIC FREE REPUBLIC FREE REPUBLIC WHAAAAAAA!

But the other political arena's that the founders of the SAS are active in, and the side they take, is irrellevant. You have no proof whatsoever that any of them sent threatening letters to anyone.

You don't have a leg to stand on, the only thing you have on the SAS is that their founders are conservative. Oh my god, Stop the presses!


Who gives a shit? Broad Brush painters are all cut from the same shitty cloth. If you behave like them, you're no better then them.

"I really dont care where the group got started at Bench."
Geeze, before I'd start defending somebody in post after post, I'd want to know that. Especially if it was a hate-filled cesspool of lunatics like Free Republic.

"You have no proof whatsoever that any of them sent threatening letters to anyone."
And YOU have no proof they didn't, except for their sterling character...oh that's right, they're a scummy bunch of self-admitted freepers of the sort that routinely send threats and hate mail to folks, like here at DU.

Now go spin some more defense for this ugly bunch of pinheaded slatterns...

..and here I thought that it was on the accuser to prove the accusations.

I'm sorry, I must have taken a wrong turn I thought we were in America.

I wasnt aware that our court system had a new policy of Guilty untill Mr Benchley says otherwise.

I also must have missed the part where false allegations of criminal behaviour are perfectly ok, as long as someone has differing political beliefs then yours.

Let's see, I proved that these skanky asswipes were freepers, and provided examples of freeper hate mail sent right to this site....

Your turn, acid....

Got anything besides sniveling?

Prove they sent the letters that you accused them of sending.

If you can just do that, you win and I will publically apologize.

If you cant, your accusations remain baseless. You cant broad brush everyone because there are a few undesireables.


The KKK is white. All whites are racist.

Irish people are known for drinking. All Irish are drunks.

Native Americans used to scalp people. All Native Americans are savages.

Many gangmembers are black. All black people are gang members.

Diane Fienstein, a Democrat, wants to confiscate peoples guns. All democrats want to confiscate peoples guns.

Muslims were responsible for 9/11. All muslims are terrorists.

I hope you see why the broad brush method is stupid.

With a bit more Democrat bashing to boot...Really, who is surprised?

Ninja, Vanish!

Fienstein is a Democrat.

Feinstein has been quoted as saying
"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate...for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done it."

It's not bashing, if she really said that. It would be bashing, however, if my statement of "all democrats want to confiscate peoples guns" was my real opinion. However, It's not, no more so then all the other statements I posted are my real opinion.

"Feinstein has been quoted as saying
"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate...for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done it." "
Yeah, but look at the dimwitted and scummy pieces of right wing shit who peddle that phony quote....

to Ms Fienstein's office. It might be a while. But I enquired about the quote, when I get a response I will post it here.

how "stupid" you think she is....

""If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate...for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done it."

That quote was on cbs's 60 minutes February 5, 1995 IIRC.

I can't find archived transcripts on 60 minutes website, but I know a clip is floating around on the net. Trying to find a copy....

Transcripts of 60 minutes online.


So much for this "Yeah, but look at the dimwitted and scummy pieces of right wing shit who peddle that phony quote...." wrong fact.

I guess benchy owes everyone a retraction, unless he believes 60 minutes quailfys as "scummy pieces of right wing shit who peddle that phony quote".


Snip-

"Stahl CA) at podium, holding up an AK-47]: California Senator
Dianne Feinstein worked for more than a year to get the
assault weapons bill passed, in the face of ferocious
opposition from the National Rifle Association. She says
she got the_best_she could. Feinstein's office]

Sen. Dianne Feinstein: If I could have gotten 51
votes in the Senate of the United States for
an_out_right_ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr.
and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in," I would have done it.
I_could_not do that. The votes weren't here."



Take your pick, they're identical, as far as I can tell.

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Books%20and%20News/What%20Assault%20Weapons%20Ban%3f

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/60min.txt

Note that these do not come from the CBS site, but they are identical from what I can tell. I will be looking for more just in case this isn't "good enough proof" or is somehow percieved as biased by the those in denial.

Certainly fits both sites you dug up, beev...a neoConfederate comic book fan and an actual gun dealer...

From the "neoConfederate comic book fan" site.


"I may have talked about the great religious anecdotes, such as the time Jesus healed the male lover of a Roman centurion with no recriminations, only praise for the centurion’s faith. Or his in-depth analysis of how religious intolerance has little backing from the bible. Or the hypocrisy of drug laws, sex laws, and the laws about any number of other things that really “ain’t nobody’s business” but the person doing them.

I remember when I found out that Peter McWilliams was dead. I was doing a web search on Tianamen Square for a reader of my web site. Somehow the search ended up on an obituary for Peter. It was the extremest irony. Our government killed Peter. They killed him because he was an outspoken advocate of other people’s rights. He could have quietly continued to use medical marijuana and he would still be alive today. But because he came out publicly in support of other people’s rights to use medicine that keeps them alive, our government forced him off of marijuana, and he died as a direct result of it. He choked on his vomit while trying to take his AIDS medication."

I have never spammed you, not even to ask you to buy my own book. But ending prohibition is one of the most important issues facing our generation. The violence and the deaths caused by prohibition should have been stopped by our parents. They left the responsibility to us, and we cannot let it pass to another generation. The longer prohibition remains, the more people will die like Peter."

http://www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Editorials/Mimsy/raisingpeter.shtml

From another page on the same site:

"If you support keeping drugs illegal...

"You support robberies and assaults on innocent people.
The high prices of drugs caused by prohibition force many drug addicts to turn to robbery in order to pay for their drugs. Legalization would drop drug prices. Drug users would no longer need to rob/assault innocent people in order to support their drug habit. This violence against innocent people would end if drugs were legalized. "

"You support clogging our prisons and jails with nonviolent people.
Nearly 50% of all people in prison and jail are serving time for nonviolent drug charges. There are thousands of people in prisons for 5, 10, 50 years--even life--for possessing marijuana or cocaine! The average rapist is set free after serving only 3 years in prison, the average murderer is set free after serving only 9 years in prison! To house just one prisoner for one year costs the taxpayer $40,000! The result of these harsh penalties? Drug use has increased! (Tough laws have not stopped me from using marijuana--nor will they ever!)"

"You support organized crime and drug cartels.
Huge drug cartels and criminal organizations thrive off the enormous profits caused by drug prohibition. These organizations are responsible for thousands of murders! Many of people killed or hurt are innocent people who get in the way! These violent organizations will never be put out of business--unless drugs are legalized. "

http://www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Editorials/Guests/Legalize.html


And whats this? A gun dealer?


"Grass roots South Carolina "

"Who We Are and Our Purpose

Modeled after similar organizations in other states, GrassRoots South Carolina is a South Carolina 501(c)4 Corporation. Our primary goals are to educate merchants, to keep our membership up to date on firearms and CWP issues, and to keep our membership aware of legislative issues of concern to law-abiding firearms owners in South Carolina."

"Our mission is to educate and promote acceptance of responsible firearms ownership within the State of South Carolina and to protect the rights of law abiding citizens with regard to firearms ownership. Initially we focused all of our attention on Merchants who posted against the lawful carrying of concealed weapons in their stores. Since then we have broadened our scope and are currently increasing information delivery to all firearms owners, the concealed weapons permit holder, and instructor. No doubt as we continue to grow we will further broaden our objectives to improve all aspects of lawful ownership and carrying of firearms in South Carolina. "


http://www.scfirearms.org/AboutUs/default.html

(/sarcasmon):eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:
I forgot that "scummy pieces of right wing shit" includes people pimping tolerance, for ending the drug war, and people who read comic books, and "gun dealers" who are actually grass roots political organizations.

Your right, people with views that condemn "the hypocrisy of drug laws, sex laws, and the laws about any number of other things that really “ain’t nobody’s business” but the person doing them" are definitely "scummy pieces of right wing shit". I must submit myself for punishment for misunderstanding what it IS to be liberal.
:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:


My mistake bench, what WAS I thinking.....:eyes:(/sarcasmoff)


Oh yeah, I almost forgot, do you have any comment on the transcript?

"I almost forgot, do you have any comment on the transcript"
Yeah...doesn't the RKBA crowd ever read anything sane people read?

60 minutes transcripts are not read by Sane people?

Is that what you are inferring?

Whats too funny is your lack of comment on the CONTENT of said transcript.

Whats funnier is that you have been proven wrong, about more than one of your veiled inferrences, and are in denial about it.


Thats ok though. You keep preaching that people with views that condemn "the hypocrisy of drug laws, sex laws, and the laws about any number of other things that really “ain’t nobody’s business” but the person doing them" are definitely "scummy pieces of right wing shit".

And go right ahead and Keep pretending that this-

"Stahl CA) at podium, holding up an AK-47]: California Senator
Dianne Feinstein worked for more than a year to get the
assault weapons bill passed, in the face of ferocious
opposition from the National Rifle Association. She says
she got the_best_she could. Feinstein's office]

Sen. Dianne Feinstein: If I could have gotten 51
votes in the Senate of the United States for
an_out_right_ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr.
and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in," I would have done it.
I_could_not do that. The votes weren't here."

-Never happened.

"A man who was reportedly on his way to work was shot outside his home on Detroit's west side Friday morning.
The shooting occurred in the 15000 block of Linwood around 5:30 a.m.. The victim -- believed to be in his 70s -- went back into his home where he died, Local 4 reported. He reportedly tried to call for help. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_wdiv/1906932

Sounds like yet another responsible, law-biding gun owner's negligence resulted in an unnecessary death. - Wayne

* * * * *

12-Year-Old Killed While Playing With High-Powered Rifle

Shooting Being Investigated As Accidental

POSTED: 6:12 a.m. PST December 5, 2003
UPDATED: 6:43 a.m. PST December 5, 2003

LOS ANGELES -- A 12-year-old boy who was visiting a teenage friend was shot and killed Thursday night with a high-powered rifle in what is being investigated as an accidental shooting, officials said.

The victim was at his 14-year-old friend's house when he suffered a gunshot wound to the upper torso, said Deputy Harry Drucker of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. The shooting occurred about 7 p.m. and the boy was pronounced dead at the scene, Drucker said.

<snip>

Investigators were looking into how the boys obtained the gun, Drucker said.

It is illegal to negligently store a firearm and authorities were investigating if that was the case, Drucker said.

"That law was enacted because of accidental shootings involving children," he said.

<more>

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2684909/detail.html

4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People"

I went to your link, they refer to the weapon as a rifle. Do you know the type of rifle used or are you ASSuming it was a "high powered" rifle?
You posted;
A 12-year-old boy who was visiting a teenage friend was shot and killed Thursday night with a high-powered rifle in what is being investigated as an accidental shooting, officials said.

The link without your input reads;
LOS ANGELES -- A 12-year-old boy who was visiting a teenage friend was shot and killed Thursday night with a rifle in what is being investigated as an accidental shooting, officials said.

You added "high powered" didn't ya?

Guess you missed this on the link....

"POSTED: 6:12 a.m. PST December 5, 2003
UPDATED: 1:20 p.m. PST December 5, 2003"

What time did CO Liberal post it? Oh yeah, 11:04 AM.

I didn't miss anything. The story does not refer to a "high powered" rifle. You really can't miss something that isn't there.Please post the link that says "high powered" or follow the rules you set forth.

If you make rules you really ought to follow them.

in your world?

And what the hell possible difference could it make whether or not the rifle is currently being described as high powered or not?

The kid is dead...and you're fretting that the gun that killed him is being described incorrectly? You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

If the title was changed after I posted the article, I have no control over that.

Besides, I don't know enough about individual gun models to know what is and is not "high-powered", so why would I insert such a phrase?

Who cares that the kid is dead...the important issue is whether you slandered the gun that killed the kid...</sarcasm>

... tend to nit-pick the little shit. Limbaugh and Hannity have raised this to an art form.

of right wingers on internet boards...

It's very similar to our unelected drunk fussing about whether he actually SAID the exact words "imminent threat" about the nonn-existent WMDs in Iraq...

I didn't add or delete anything - I posted the title EXACTLY as it appeared at the time I found the article thru Google. The title may have been changed later.

Pro-gunners: please note the quote from Sarah Brady -

"We had a simple message: Keep guns out of the wrong hands."

The WRONG hands - not ALL hands. Some of you really need to stop mischaracterizing the position of a woman who has sufferred so much as a result of an asshole with a gun. - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Landmark Gun-Control Law Passes Milestone

By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP)-- Veterans of the antigun wars gathered Thursday to mark the recent 10-year anniversary of former President Clinton's signing into law the Brady bill, which requires background checks of prospective gun buyers.

"We had a huge need: gun deaths were high," said Sarah Brady, who became a leading gun-control advocate after her husband, then-White House press secretary James Brady, was shot in an assassination attempt on former President Reagan in 1981. "We had a simple message: Keep guns out of the wrong hands."

The federal law that mandates background checks requires the National Instant Check System--the FBI background check system firearms dealers are required to use--to search all available databases.

Since Clinton signed the Brady bill on Nov. 30, 1993, 1 million illegal gun buyers have been stopped from buying a gun at a gun store, according to the Brady Campaign. Among those not allowed to purchase the guns were convicted felons, fugitives and drug addicts.

<more>

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/National/AP.V7779.AP-Brady-Bill-Anni.html

Former President Bill Clinton shakes hands with James Brady, right, former press secretary to President Ronald Reagan, as they are applauded by NAACP President Kweisi Mfume, middle, during the celebration of the 10th anniversary of the passage of the Brady Bill, Thursday, Dec. 4, 2003, in Washington.
Photo by Kevin Wolf

Supporting a Ban on a class of firearms based on appearance and their frequency of use by criminals in action movies, not real life. Is just plan wrong.

The VPC has a similar message, just a slightly more extreme version of who has the wrong hands.

I dont think there's going to be any orginazation out there that will advocate a total ban on all guns right off the bat and expect to be taken seriously. It's all done with incrimintalism.

Two of the biggest steps happening withen the last two decades. In 1986 we had a complete ban on new machine guns, even though legally owned machine guns hadnt been used more then 2 or three times in a crime since 1934.

So what was the point? To keep guns out of the wrong hands. In this case, Poor peoples hands.

A gun that costs $800 dollars in 1985 now costs over $8,000, and there hasnt been any benifit to society whatsoever. If anything it's hurt the ammount of money that could be made off the transfers as it costs $200 to have the ATF do the transfer. Most NFA sales taking two transfers to complete. Thats $400, do a few thousand of those every year, and it adds up. But you dont get as many transfers when the cheapest machine guns available still cost almost $2000.



Then we have the AWB of 1994 that banned several types of semi-auto firearms based on features that dont affect lethality.

The result? Grandfathered magazines and firearms have skyrocketed in price, because collectors like having these features. Once again, you've managed to keep a class of firearms out of who's hands? The poor.


Now, the new push. A newer tougher AWB! Which will once again, take a slice off of what citizens can own. What will the results be? Pricing certain firearms out of reach of the little guy, once again.

No one thinks for a minute that this new tougher AWB is going to be the end of it either, so "whats next?" is the real question. What happens if this new ban gets into place, and has no effect on crime, just like it's older brother?


These gun control groups. They're never going to be satisfied untill every firearm that is not a single shot break open shotgun is either registered under the NFA, or completely confiscated and destroyed.

So what was the point? To keep guns out of the wrong hands. In this case, Poor peoples hands.

"Wrong hands" means criminals, the insane, and those with personal histories of violent behavior. Surely you can see the need to keep guns away from people in those categories.

Your "argument" is like saying that Mercedes-Benz discriminates against poor people.

...The inflated prices in this case are a result of misguided laws. Rather then production cost.

There's no other explanation as to why a pre-86 machine gun that once sold for $800 now sells for $8,000.It's not that they dont make them, it's just that the gubment says "No!"


I just paid $3500 for a used gun that's upwards of 20 years old. When I should be able to buy a new one for under $600 if not for artificially inflated prices.

Whether the intention of the law was to price effective weapons out of the hands of the poor or not. That is the result, and there's no arguing that.


This is more like being forced to pay the price of a mercedes, for a yugo because the government says that no "preban" yugos can be sold. Even though post ban yugos are available and regularly sold to liscensed auto dealers for a pittance of the civilian cost.

...are caused by supply and demand. Capitalism at work.

Is the government interfering in capitalism to insure that citizens pay higher prices.

That doesnt strike you as being wrong?


The supply is there, the demand is there, the only differance is that two identical guns made 2 days apart have a price differance of up to 10 times due to laws that have no real reason for existing.

If the government suddenly said "No citizen can buy cars made after X date", and the price of cars sky rocketed to 10 times their actual worth would that sit ok with you?

Nor the law, nor common sense, nor the opinion of their fellow citizens, nor the actual Constitution...

The full test of the AP article said 400 peple attended.

With a former President, the head of the NAACP and a lot of press support they were only able to get 400 people to attend the fundraiser/"celebration"?

That ain't even hardly an impressive turnout. Why I bet them evil racist asswipes at the NRA turn out bigger groups for their coffee breaks.

It does not sound like a major ground swell of public support. Especially is everyone wants those evil assault weapons off the street as we have been told so frequently and stridently.

...I would agree that 400 attendees was a paltry amount. But 400 for an indoor event seems pretty good.

Put it in persoective - how many people typically attend Bush/Cheney fundraisers?

Brady takes credit for saving thousands of lives.

I would have thought that they could at least get all those cops that weren't killed by assault weapons to show up with their checkbooks.

400 attendees for a dinner at a national level, with a President as popular as Clinton, is an embarassingly low turnout by any catering standards.

The dinner for the Silver Plate award winners (Restuarant Industry) drew more than 1,500 last May in Chicago as a comparison.

But please, everyone feel free to send them another check. I'm sure they can use it.

What is it with all these gun-related stories lately from The Buckeye State? - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Gun goes off on school bus; no one hurt

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COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A .25-caliber handgun that a 9-year-old boy had sneaked onto a school bus fired accidentally, sending a bullet into a seat, police said. No one was hurt.

The boy was showing the gun to a 10-year-old friend Thursday morning while the bus was en route to an elementary school when it discharged.

The bullet pierced a seat cushion.

Where the boy got the gun hasn’t been disclosed.

<more>

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/news/updates/2559.html

It was fired accidently by the 9 y/o boy. Nine year olds are prohibited from owning a pistol, they are prohibited from concealed carry permits. He also intended to carry the weapon in a "gun free zone". Just what law would have prevented this incident?

"A Roseville man posed as a Marine to collect money for Toys for Tots, then used some of the money to buy himself assault rifles, a handgun and ammunition, police say.
Police believe the suspect kept about $2,000 of the money he collected for Toys for Tots and used it to buy two AK47 assault rifles, one handgun, about 900 rounds of ammunition, one camouflage bulletproof vest and a laptop computer. Police retrieved the items from the briefcase, his car and his mother's Roseville home.
During questioning, the suspect again said he was in a covert operation and his commander is based in Quantico, Va., but cannot be found there because he, too, is involved in secret missions.
"Toys for Tots is not covert under any stretch of the imagination," Reaves said.
The suspect's mother told police she was afraid her son would hurt or kill someone. She said her son is mentally ill and refuses to seek treatment. He has been unemployed for several months and she had been supporting him. "

http://www.freep.com/news/locmac/usmc5_20031205.htm

"The boys, both 11 years old, had gotten off the school bus a short time earlier and became curious about the gun in a gun cabinet inside the home, according to investigators. There were no adults in the home at the time, Paolello reported.
As one of the boys was putting the gun back, the butt of the gun hit the wall, causing the weapon to discharge. The bullet hit the boy in the stomach.
The other boy called 911, but his friend was pronounced dead at the scene..."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_wlwt/1904510

"Police said Craig Bain along with three other suspects tried to rob Maonquin in October. Investigators said Maonquin was shot several times and died during a struggle.
On Tuesday Tito Sabb, Henri Young and Quenalin Baldwin were also arrested and charged in the murder. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=379&ncid=379&e=1&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_wxii/1907502

"Police arrested a 30-year-old woman Thursday in connection with a drive-by shooting that killed a woman while she was watching television with her husband in their living room.
Police officials said Camelle Gallegos was in a car with Gerardo Guerrero, 29, and Mark Anthony Ramos, 22, that drove by a home on Nov. 17 in the 900 block of Delgado and opened fire.
Tracy Ortiz, a mother of two, was fatally wounded by a stray bullet. Police officials said the suspects mistakenly shot at Ortiz's home in retaliation for a gang-related drive-by shooting. Police officials said the suspects shot at the wrong home. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=391&ncid=391&e=5&u=/ibsys/20031205/lo_ksat/1907423