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The leading cause of death for black men 15 to 34 is homicide.

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:03 PM
Original message
The leading cause of death for black men 15 to 34 is homicide.
If those men were dying from a disease, the black community would cry out for a cure.

If those men were dying solely at the hands of white people, the black community would protest.

Instead, the hip-hop world’s celebration of savage violence, educational failure and misogyny by gangsta rap has been one of the worst influences on American youth, especially black youth, in decades.



Even before the 1980s, when gangsta rap oozed out of downtrodden black neighborhoods, too many black men were marginalized—unlettered, unemployed, imprisoned. They were already the victims of a fratricidal cycle of violence, predator and prey. They were already disproportionately fathers in absentia, completely divorced from the lives of their children, providing neither material support nor moral guidance.

The worst of gangsta rap has not merely reflected behavior but has also inspired it, much of it lawless and destructive. Its lyrics are paeans to murder and mayhem. It celebrates an outlaw culture that disrespects women, mocks middle-class values and preaches against any cooperation with police in catching criminals.

In this destructive environment, the more violent and predatory you are, the more heroic you seem. The world of thug culture, middle-class men with minor legal transgressions feel compelled to exaggerate their bad behavior, claiming to be hard-core degenerates in order to impress youngsters looking for outlaw role models.

If it is better to be an outlaw than to be a teacher or a chemist or accountant, then young black men will continue to go to prison in record numbers. If it is more acceptable to be violent and reckless than to be a responsible father and husband, then marriage will continue to decline in black communities. If you want to ruin a nation, a society or an ethnic group, persuade its members that the highest form of achievement lies in criminality.





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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Did you score a major bargain on asbestos suits?
I agree with you, but I don't have the courage to lead with a strong post like that.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why is this in the "Guns" forum?
I agree with everything you've said but I hope you aren't attempting to make an argument for restricting the sale of guns to African Americans.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Not at all
One the gun culture is mostly about folks using guns lawfully.

The thug culture is mostly about glorifying criminality.

And you see plenty of gangsta wanna-be middle class white kids hanging around the big city malls sporting the clothes and the image.

The facts remain that glorifying criminality is the surest way to destroy a culture.

The sad and undeniable fact is the thug culture glorified in hip-hop and rap most damage to the black community by somehow convincing young black men the way to excel is to kill other young black men.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Question, what is your solution?
Edited on Wed Feb-24-10 02:21 PM by spin
I favor treating repeat violent felons caught with illegal weapons as a serious threat to our society.

LONG jail terms takes them off the streets and discourages others from following in their footsteps. If you are a violent felon who is caught packing heat and you get off with a slap on the wrist, you just go back to carrying another gun. Sooner or later, you use your weapon to injure or murder another person. Finally, the legal system treats your crime as serious.

Gun control should target criminals not honest people.

I also believe that people of all races should be allowed to own firearms for self defense and sporting purposes. Those who are proven to be irresponsible should not be able to legally buy a firearm and should face stiff penalty if caught with one.

edited to add comment
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. I wish it were simple
Edited on Wed Feb-24-10 07:22 PM by one-eyed fat man
There are those on this forum who would be vehemently opposed to the civilian ownership of firearms if no crime were ever committed with a gun.

There are those whose experience with guns for sport, hunting and recreation has been constructive.

There are those who have avowed that guns make people become criminals while others believe the problem is people using guns criminally. My question is, how much of the problem of people behaving badly with guns is a result of a pervasive and lucrative pop culture that glorifies bad behavior?

Kids in the Forties and Fifties grew up with cowboy outfits and cap guns and played at being the good guys. Those westerns were simplisctic morality plays where justice reluctantly fought injustice and violence with violence. I certainly don't recall shootouts in the streets despite the ease with which guns could be bought.

Now the antithesis of morality is a cultural model, to the point where the thug image is so valued that grown men invent criminal histories,if they don't actually have one. I cannot help but wonder what is this costing us as a society?

In lost and wasted lives. In time and treasure lost in all those prisons and prisoners. I think violent thugs who use guns to victimize people regardless of race ought to be locked up. But what I want to figure out is how to prevent youngsters from embarking on a life of crime to start with. And I'd like to know how much of the blame rests on those who glorify thugs and criminals?







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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. It's far from simple ...
It is true that the culture has changed since you and I grew up. Good guys wore the white hats and bad guys wore black hats in the movies. Today the heroes are far more violent and often have serious character faults. In many movies, the bad guy is the hero. Obviously this has to have an effect but I doubt that it is the cause of the problem.

Video games such as Grand Theft Auto could be a cause because to an extent they teach violence. I've played this game myself and found it an entertaining escape from real life. I would expect that playing GTA could result in more aggressive behavior among young people. But on the other hand, playing this game or others like it might just as easily "get the aggression out".

Our educational system hasn't changed all that much, which is maybe why we have such a high rate of failure in high schools. Children today are attuned to computers rather than books. A teacher in front of a blackboard may have been high tech in our day, but is prehistoric to our children. I personally feel that we need to massively overhaul our educational system and put the text books on devices like the new MAC iPad. We also need to develop educational programs for computers in the classrooms which would allow students to move at their own pace. Game makers could also develop educational programs where the student would play a character on a mission or quest. This might be very effective at teaching history or even economics. But we also need to find a way to enforce discipline in the classroom. From what I understand, many schools that are failing today lack essential discipline and in effect the students run the classroom.

When we grew up there were good jobs available for high school graduates. Many of these jobs have moved overseas. A good college education is extremely expensive for no good reason and therefore is out of the reach of many students. But after spending all the money, getting a college education is no guarantee of a good income. The alternative to college is technical schools or the military. You just can't go to work for a big company like GM and expect lifelong employment and retirement anymore.

Drugs are one of the biggest problems in our society. The war on drugs has been a total failure. I feel we need to legalize some drugs and take a large chunk out of the profits of dealing illegal drugs. Our law enforcement agencies and our judicial system need to realize that drug gangs are terrorist organizations and remove gang members from the streets. If we don't, our country will begin to resemble Mexico filled with violence and a corrupt police and government. To a young child in many poor areas of our country, the drug load in his pimped out car with his women look like the best opportunity available.

The most amazing thing is that the availability of firearms has not lead to more crime. More guns = more crime has been disproved. Of course, it's impossible to say that more guns = less crime. There are far too many factors to consider that may have lead to the decrease in violent crime since 1993.

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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Timothy McVeigh was all about gun culture and virtually lived at gun shows.
He was a pretty successful criminal.

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Walk away Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. +1
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. ..and how many like that compared to street thugs (of various races)
BTW McVeigh was a terrible criminal - he was caught almost immediately. He was simply bold enough to go big rather than knock off drug-dealing rivals one at a time.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Did he buy his fuel oil or fertilizer at a gun show?
I must have missed that in the news.

I'm trying to figure out what the hell attendance at gun shows has to do with making a bomb from commonly available products?

I go to gun shows pretty regularly and haven't been offered any bomb plans yet. A lot of jerky and miracle glass cleaner, WWII vintage canteens and helmet covers etc. Maybe I just missed that booth.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. He is also the perfect example to justify
the death penalty!

Severe punishment for serious crimes!
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. And excellent example
of why they break people on the wheel .
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. One incident does not make a trend. N/T
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. And his crime involved no guns
Amazing.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. That first sentence also describes about 20 of my relatives.
And they're a law-abiding bunch.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. He lived at gun shows where he learned about ......fertilizer?
"Successful?" He daid, boss.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Gangsta rap" has about as much to do with it as violent video games.
The fact is that black men 15 to 34 disproportionately live in abject poverty, and are therefore easy to recruit into the gangs that fight over the drug trade. 90% of homicide offenders have a criminal record that prohibits them from owning a gun, and so do 75% of homicide victims. Those are the members of the professional gang class that are killing and being killed in a multi-billion-dollar black market.

The fastest way to pull the carpet out from under the murder rate in this country is to end the drug war.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. there's alot to what you say
But in another sense, poverty does not cause crime, it causes poor people. Criminality is a choice. If the popular culture glorifies criminal behavior, and million dollar athletes adopt the gangsta image that choice is easier to make than if criminals were shunned.

They weren't born convicted felons. It's a pretty good bet their mommas didn't raise them to be felons. Low level street criminals and dealers ain't exactly rolling in dough or so many of them wouldn't still be living with their mothers.

It's not the guy playing GTA on a computer that is the problem. It's the one who thinks actually living like he is a character in Grand Theft Auto who is a problem.

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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. I'm inclined to think gangsta rap is a symptom, not the cause
When it comes to what draws young urban black males into the illegal drugs trade, with the attendant brutalization that causes them to kill each other with nary a second thought, socio-economic circumstances have to play a part, though that does by no means explain the whole thing.

Part of the problem is the leftover baggage of racism, intentional and unintentional. The emergence of crack in the 1980s resulted in legislation that suffered from the fact that it was written in metric measurements and voted on by people who didn't have a clue what those measurements meant, the result being that conviction for possession of 50 grams (less than two ounces) of crack resulted in a mandatory 10-year prison sentence, whereas it took 5,000 grams (about 11 pounds) of powder cocaine to trigger the same sentence. Because crack was more popular among blacks, this resulted in a disproportionate number of blacks being incarcerated for long terms, many of them leaving behind partners and children. Those children were the second generation of "prison orphans"; we're now on the third or fourth.

Let's not kid ourselves; the so-called "War on Drugs" has disproportionately struck the urban black population. You couldn't do a better job of criminalizing an entire demographic if you tried, and it's certainly played a major part in disrupting the structure of the family in the urban black population. Which brings me to:
They weren't born convicted felons.

No, but they did have the deck thoroughly stacked against them.
It's a pretty good bet their mommas didn't raise them to be felons.

You might be surprised. In the fourth season of The Wire (and that show was written by guys who know their subject matter), the wife of one of the guys who was put away at the conclusion of the first season (incurring a full sentence because he didn't roll on his superiors) pressures her teenage son to get into dealing so that he--having become "the man of the house"--can finance the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed. And even though this might be an extreme example, the fact remains that if you're a 14-17 year-old "prison orphan," or the kid of a single low-income mother, there aren't a lot of options to bring a substantial amount of money into the household.

Low level street criminals and dealers ain't exactly rolling in dough or so many of them wouldn't still be living with their mothers.

A large part of that is because low-level drug gang members are awfully young, typically well under 20. Another part is that at least part of why they do what they do is to support their families. And to top it off, they understand that what they do is dangerous; they could be imprisoned or killed any day, so they don't look at long-term investments like real estate, but at spending their money on nice clothes, consumer electronics, a flashy car, and women while they're alive to enjoy it, or before the local PD seizes the lot.

They want to live like rappers (or how they think rappers live) while they can, and maybe what's happened is that rap/hip-hop and gang culture have formed a mutual feedback loop: gang-bangers try to emulate the perceived glamor of rappers, and rappers try to emulate the perceived glamor of gang-bangers, with perhaps neither fully realizing the seamy side of each other's existence. It's kind of the way a large number of pop stars want to act in movies, while a large number of movie actors want to be singers. I have to admit I'm speculating at this point.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. "Feedback loop:" Think "Legs" Diamond and George Raft. nt
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Good and thoughtful points.
I am inclined to agree with your "feedback loop" speculation. That is pretty much my point. The thug culture glamorizes criminality, glamorizes gratuitous gunplay, and ridicules success in school, having a regular job, knowing the names of your children or what would be loosely termed middle class values by providing "entertainment" that dehumanizes and demonizes people on the basis of color, gender, and sexual orientation.

Those who see that as escapist entertainment are not the problem, it's those who buy into the premise and who not only emulate the clothing and mannerisms but "do the deeds" If it just a matter of clothing style and music it wouldn't be any more of a problem than folks playing dress up. About as scary as a bunch of Trekkies dressed as Klingons. But the violence isn't just playacting; it's not just teenagers trying on a rebellious facade. Young adults -- many of them men, most of them black -- get arrested. They go to prison. They die on the streets.

The Great Society program of the 60s literally destroyed the black family structure by forcing men out of the homes in order for the woman to be able to collect bigger welfare checks. Those seeds provided fathers in absentia, completely divorced from the lives of their children, providing neither material support nor moral guidance. And single mothers unable or unwilling to exert enough influence on their offspring. With that pattern set, the problems you cite with the crack and "prison orphans" exacerbated lack of positive male role models.

Now, there are young blacks that don’t seem to identify with positive role models like Barack Obama. Instead, educated blacks are ostracized for being "white." Modern-day black heroes are drug dealers, pimps, and rappers who masquerade as gangsters, scammers, players, and gun-toting professional athletes. To equate intelligence and white-collar success to whites is self-inflicted damage. While this may not be a widespread problem, it’s a crippling association and seems to be worsening.

That gun crime seems to be overwhelmingly an urban problem. That the major percentage of that crime is committed by black men against blacks, the correlation between the ascendance of a thug culture needs to be questioned. Is life imitating art?




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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. hopelessness breeds crime.
But in another sense, poverty does not cause crime, it causes poor people. Criminality is a choice. If the popular culture glorifies criminal behavior, and million dollar athletes adopt the gangsta image that choice is easier to make than if criminals were shunned.

It is true that poverty, by itself, will not cause crime. But hopelessness and a feeling that the game is rigged most definitely will.

A poor person who believes that hard work can get you ahead in the world may pursue the endeavor to pull himself out of poverty.

But if a poor person believes that no amount of hard work will get them anywhere in the world, they won't bother.

And I believe that is the root of the problem. Too many youths feel that there is no hope for them to make it in this world through legitimate means. Not only do they realize that they are severely handicapped in the means to compete their way up, many are coming to believe that the game is rigged.

It is the sole reason I support Affirmative Action, which, at face value, is unfair.

The simple fact is we need to seed the black culture with successful role models, or else the culture of expected failure will continue. Black youths need to see that becoming a doctor, or a lawyer, or a scientist, or any other upstanding role in society is not an anomaly for a black person, but an average occurrence and expectation.

That pump must be primed, and it is my hope that Affirmative Action can help prime it.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Interesting premise, but some research
Edited on Thu Feb-25-10 01:27 PM by one-eyed fat man
The simple fact is we need to seed the black culture with successful role models, or else the culture of expected failure will continue. Black youths need to see that becoming a doctor, or a lawyer, or a scientist, or any other upstanding role in society is not an anomaly for a black person, but an average occurrence and expectation.

What value are those positive role models if the thug culture minimizes and ridicules them?

Back in 1995 the Shaker Heights high school student paper started a firestorm when the students themselves reported on the black white performance divide they in their school. Parents hired a highly regarded anthropologist to research the students' findings and then vehemently denounced his report.

"Cal Professor John Ogbu thinks he knows why rich black kids are failing in school. Nobody wants to hear it.

The black parents wanted an explanation. Doctors, lawyers, judges, and insurance brokers, many had come to the upscale Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights specifically because of its stellar school district. They expected their children to succeed academically, but most were performing poorly. African-American students were lagging far behind their white classmates in every measure of academic success: grade-point average, standardized test scores, and enrollment in advanced-placement courses. On average, black students earned a 1.9 GPA while their white counterparts held down an average of 3.45. Other indicators were equally dismal. It made no sense.

The professor and his research assistant moved to Shaker Heights for nine months in mid-1997. They reviewed data and test scores. The team observed 110 different classes, from kindergarten all the way through high school. They conducted exhaustive interviews with school personnel, black parents, and students. Their project yielded an unexpected conclusion: It wasn't socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, that accounted for the students' poor academic performance; it was their own attitudes, and those of their parents.

Ogbu concluded that the average black student in Shaker Heights put little effort into schoolwork and was part of a peer culture that looked down on academic success as "acting white." Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap."

Black students did not look upon their parents, that is sucessful black professors, doctors, businessmen, in traditional two parent families, many of who sacrificed to enable their children to attend the best school in the area as role models. Instead, they emulated the rappers and thugs, the dress, the patois, and in some cases the actual thuggery.

"The black parents feel it is their role to move to Shaker Heights, pay the higher taxes so their kids could graduate from Shaker, and that's where their role stops," Ogbu says during an interview at his home in the Oakland hills. "They believe the school system should take care of the rest. They didn't supervise their children that much. They didn't make sure their children did their homework. That's not how other ethnic groups think."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ogbu

If you are spring-loaded into getting your feelings hurt, you might want avoid looking at his research.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Absolutely.
I believe that what you have quoted is true for any students, black or white.

It is absolutely true that students in school must be motivated to learn. This is why it does little good to hold teachers accountable for scholastic performance when they have virtually no ability to motivate students who are unmotivated to learn.

The only people with the ability to motivate students to learn, either positively or negatively, are parents.

Some very few rare kids will be self-motivated. Some very few rare kids will have exceptionally motivating teachers. But most are kids like I was, who have no interest in doing school work and only do it at the insistence, with threat of punishment, from parents.

Children frequently rise to the expectations and demands of their parents. If parents do not demand academic excellence, their children will not achieve it.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Another intersting quote from Ogbu
This corroborates what I was saying earlier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ogbu
"In Minority Education and Caste (1978), Ogbu argued that "involuntary minorities" often adopted an "oppositional identity" to the mainstream culture in response to a glass ceiling imposed or maintained by white society on the job-success of their parents and others in their communities. Therefore, he reasoned, some non-whites "failed to observe the link between educational achievement and access to jobs.""

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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-26-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. And with "the link between educational achievement and access to jobs" being maybe weaker than ever,
across the board, expecting any improvement in "attitudes" is rather unrealistic. The first decade of the twenty-first century saw the highest-ever proportion of Americans pursuing higher education, and yet, both inflation-adjusted wages and jobs as a whole suffered stagnation or worse.

Beyond any other issue I might have with the OP - which carries a strong whiff of "up by the bootstraps" conservatism - it seems obvious to me that unless the younger generation's economic prospects improve, any hope of them becoming better citizens (whatever that really means) is in vain.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-26-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Did you read Ogbu's conclusions?
The bottom line of his research was that it was not socioeconomics that drove black grades lower, it was lack of parental involvement and academic expectation.

Black parents had an expectation of moving to the places where the good schools were, and let the schools handle their childrens' education. Other cultures take a more active role in their childrens' education, making sure homework gets done, etc.

Then, too, there was the problem, mostly in mixed-race schools, of a fear on the part of black children to be perceived as "acting white". This problem seemed to diminish in predominantly-black schools.

This is not "bootstraps conservatism", it echoes what a teacher friend of mine told me years ago. You can't hold teachers responsible for student performance, because teachers are powerless to motivate unmotivated children. The only people who can do that are parents. If parents are not involved in their child's educational process, the student will suffer for it.

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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-26-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I guess I was being a lot more general, but yes, of course student motivation and parental
Edited on Fri Feb-26-10 07:45 PM by nomorenomore08
involvement play a role. My view on this subject is admittedly somewhat biased - I'm inclined to see conclusions like those expressed in the OP as fodder for justifying the status quo, or at worst, for minimizing or excusing racism. I see it in kind of a paternalistic light as well, like a bunch of old white guys speculating on "what ails the black youth" - I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the OP was a white man over 40. Then again, I know there are also black men - generally older, more affluent - who take the same stance, and so maybe it's not an issue of race as much as it's an issue of the older generation fretting about the young, which is a trope that goes back at least to Socrates and probably further.

Also, somebody on this thread (IIRC) posted a chart showing the nationwide decline in violent crime since ~1993. Based on that, I wouldn't say there's so much cause to freak out over the "thug culture," considering that the drop in the crime rate practically coincides with the meteoric rise in popularity of rap music, particularly so-called gangstap rap.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-27-10 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Bill Cosby, May 2004
His speech at Howard University pretty much went over like the proverbial "turd in the punchbowl"; perceived as a tirade by an old millionaire and vilified as a product of elitism and a mentality out-of-touch with the current generation.

Perhaps the reason that some things go as far back as Socrates, and maybe further is that they are UNIVERSALLY TRUE. Also perhaps being one hell of a lot closer to 70 than 40 and living the history first hand colors the perceptions. But I tend to agree with Professor Cosby, I think he raises many valid points.

Read or listen to the speech

Other notable black educators and community activists such as Professors Shelby Steele, Alvin F. Poussaint, Hutchinson and others postulate how gains from the black civil-rights movement were lost to government handouts that made the black man nearly obsolete.

Noting that 80 percent of black households were two-parent households in the 1960s, they attempt to pinpoint where the community started to lose ground. At that time, the black community itself adhered to a higher moral standard than the white community. Government assistance hurt black people by making them dependent, and black people began to believe in the government instead of themselves. These are notions that should be just dismissed out of hand because we don't like them. Or old successful, academics made them.

An infamous report, by the Washington-based Justice Policy Institute, says the number of black men behind bars exceeds the number enrolled in college or university. Sure, some of that is due to lopsided enforcement of drug laws, but how much of it is due to the glorification of criminality by the thug culture?

Here is one comment. Remember that good satire amplifies a kernel of truth.

Chris Rock Master's Degree




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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. +100
Yeah, gangsta rap is the real reason kids from the 'hood don't go to college, right? Poverty and racism have nothing whatsoever to do with it, nothing at all... :sarcasm:
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Poverty and racism
Do you mean those as excuses or reasons? Actually, not that simple or easy.

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/03613536.asp

What the racial gap isn’t

CHRISTOPHER JENCKS, professor of social policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University and co-editor with Meredith Phillips of the 1998 book The Black-White Test Score Gap, has seen a long line of theories — including some of his own — collapse under scrutiny since he first started studying the racial gap in the 1960s. The first to fall was the one implicit in the Brown v. Board of Education decision. "It became pretty clear pretty quickly that eliminating segregation didn’t eliminate the test-score gap," Jencks says.

Many of the discredited theories have survived, though, for want of a solid alternative. "We had no explanation of our own, and you can’t lick a dumb theory with no theory," Jencks says.

But in the last several years, a string of studies has helped to change that, including one being published in April by Roland Fryer, who now teaches at Harvard University, and his former University of Chicago colleague Steven Levitt.

Their study found that black children and white children with the same general characteristics (socioeconomic measures, age, parents’ educational achievement) start kindergarten on an equal academic footing. By the end of the first grade, however, black students fall three months behind — that is, within the first two years of schooling.

This and other studies place the problem squarely with the schools. Perhaps that will help dispel some of the following myths about the racial gap in educational performance:

Poverty. Research has never supported the claim that the race gap is primarily a matter of socioeconomics. "I don’t think that anybody who looked at the data thought that — ever," says Jencks.

Socioeconomic factors do correlate to academic achievement, and black children are disproportionately poor. But this accounts for about a third of the racial gap — at most.

"We’d rather it was a poverty issue," says Jencks, "because we know how to write checks." But it isn’t.

Family culture. Many argue that African-American families are culturally less inclined, or less able, than white families to cultivate an education-driven home culture for their children. It’s true that black children are slightly less likely, prior to entering kindergarten, to be regularly read to or taken to a library. But this gap has been closing significantly in the last 10 years, with no corresponding narrowing of the achievement gap. In fact, black pre-kindergarteners are now more likely than their white peers to be taught letters, words, or numbers in their homes three times a week.

Black and white students spend a roughly equal amount of time on homework, and have roughly equal levels of absenteeism from school. If anything, black parents help their children with homework, and discuss national news with them, more often than white parents.

Single parenting. Conservatives are also adamant about another supposed cultural difficulty — single parenting. But the facts don’t support the theory. The mother’s level of education matters, but after controlling for that factor, Jencks and Phillips found that marital status had almost no effect on children’s test scores.

Test bias. This common explanation for the gap cannot be dismissed out of hand, but it also cannot account for most of the gap. Cultural bias in testing is a real phenomenon; IQ tests of the early-20th century are now seen as suffering from this bias. But today, both the methodology and specific questions in standardized tests have been questioned, including in a recent article in The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. (The Educational Testing Service, in Princeton, New Jersey, which administers the SAT, tracks racial disparities on answers to individual questions but does not make those data public.) Now, most academics agree that test bias accounts for only a tiny portion of the current gap, thanks to modern techniques for removing bias.

Genetic inferiority. Although almost nobody professes this theory aloud anymore, it would be naive to assume it isn’t lurking in the backs of many minds. As recently as 1994, Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray suggested it in their book The Bell Curve.

Unsurprisingly, the data confirm that innate ability is not an issue. "There ain’t nothing wrong with these kids," says Jeff Howard, founder of the Efficacy Institute, an educational-consulting firm based in Lexington. "In the hands of adults who know what they’re doing, they can quickly become proficient."
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. And the teabagger movement
has about as much to do with people flying into IRS buildings.......

I've seen that promoted here as well.

The original post has many valid points.


live in abject poverty


and

professional gang class ……. in a multi-billion-dollar black market


Sort of a contradiction don’t you think.

If it’s the almighty dollar that determines ones level of violence, once they’ve made tons of tax free money, they should suddenly become Buddhists?

Abject poverty somehow forces them to forget how dangerous that lifestyle is?

Is there TRULY ZERO other options for them? If so, and you end the “drug war” what will the EVER do for an income?
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. From the book I read, the gangs came first, then the drugs.
The book is "Monster". I still don't understand what the point of the gang wars was before the drugs. Just territory. Like a feud.


But my point is that the gang war was there without the drugs.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-26-10 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
38. Violent video game players
Usually don't glamorize the main characters. They're games.

Gangsta rap fans do quite often glamorize, admire and want to be like the rappers and they lifestyle they preach and promote.

The music itself of course isn't to blame. It's a negative culture that has become popular that is dangerous.

Chris Rock even addressed this in a skit once. You come back to town saying "I just got my master's degree" and you are derided, come back to town from prison and you are a hero. A culture with those priorities is self-destructive.

It should be the master's should beget praise, and the prison should make you social outcast. A culture that has those priorities has a high chance of success.

Agree on the drug war though. The laws of economics say the war will be lost anyway.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. In all fairness what should healthy young men die of?
Edited on Wed Feb-24-10 02:51 PM by dmallind
It's not like homicide is all that far down the list for non-black men of that age group either.

The cultural aspect is true, but the racial connection is coincidental. Whenever we value ill-educated violent irresponsible people over the reverse, we incentivize that behavior. This is much larger than "black culture" ior "gangsta rap". It's also shown in how we lionize athletes over scholars in youth and allow far too many of them to engage in irresponsible behavior we would not accept in others, how we accept not just openly but gladly that we "suck at math" but would never ever at that age publicize that we are crap at getting, or satisfying, sexual partners or can't hold our booze. It's inherent in US society, where we idealize individualism and nonconformity and demonize intellectual ability.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Healthy young men ought to worry about
Accidents. Work, recreation, transportation all come with some attendant risk and there are acute medical conditions that can afflict young otherwise healthy individuals.

In a civil society one would hope that homicide would be off the list. That the ill-effects of the "thug culture" have predominately affected the black community is not racist, it is fact. Black on black crime, and particularly violent crime, occurs at much greater rates than the other combinations.

The thug culture ridicules education. The thug culture ridicules work. The thug cultures glorifies criminality. If education and a good job are the way out of the ghetto then those things the thug culture sees as attributes are destroying the black community!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Motor vehicle accidents and poisoning
Edited on Wed Feb-24-10 04:48 PM by slackmaster
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Artie Bucco Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't know
I think poverty can only go so far as an excuse. The group of black kids, yeah kids 14-16, that broke into my family's house two years ago weren't exactly driven by poverty. Yeah, the area of Dallas I live in (Pleasant Grove) is rough but it's not like it some place out of The Wire or something. I have no idea what drives 14-16 year old kids to break into a house empty or otherwise and quite possibly risk their lives for a few hundred bucks worth of electronics. Long story short is these kids dropped two TV's that they had stolen when one of our neighbors pointed a gun at them. They did make off with jar full of change and Playstation 2. Our little Rat terrier got shaken during all of this. But what these kids did pails into comparison to cases like the Dunbar Village rape or the more beating tdeath of that kid in Chicago.

I hope the war on drugs is ended but even than it would take a few generations to remove the culture of violence from inner city youth. Gun control isn't going to help you need to get to the root of the problems.



A bit of a tie in when I mentioned poverty not exactly leading to crime. My dad was Mexican born in Mercedes, Texas, a dusty ranch town outside of McAllen. I love to rub in Texas border towns to the know-nothing hardcore anti-immigrant crowd. These towns are almost majority Mexican have relatively high poverty rates,large populations of foreign born people and all the while have relatively low crime rates when compared to other similarly sized cities in the US.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. Ugh, holding a pistol like that.
Makes me shake my head.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. I appreciate your dealing with these issues; it's gutsy, even...
Is it possible that in cities where blacks hold considerable political power (D.C., Baltimore, Chicago, etc.), the Jim Crow laws (designed from the beginning to disarm blacks) are now used, however ineffectively, to keep poor blacks from owning guns, lest they kill each other? Could the very sons and daughters of prominent black citizens be so engaged in crime that the power structure of these areas serves de facto as a shield for those moving into the thug life? Where illegal possession of a firearm is sloughed off as a minor event, a bargaining chip to reduce or eliminate jail time? Even early "modern-era" gun-controllers acknowledge the main motivation behind the 1968 GCA was to keep arms from rioting blacks, and not the more-often-cited reason as knee-jerk response to the high-profile assassinations of that era.

I recall that hideous joke attributed to Dick Gregory:

"Wait a minute, wait a minute, officer. You have the nerve to ask me how come Negroes do so much cutting? 'Cause you don't sell us no damn guns!" -- FACT (magazine), Vol. 1, issue 2, March - April, '64, "The Psychological Meaning of Anti-Negro Jokes" by D. J. Bennett.

But the fact remains that the big majority of blacks do NOT engage in "thug life," yet must suffer the worst aspect of both that culture and the South's resurrected gun-control laws: being an unarmed target.

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Way up at the top
I said, "If it is better to be an outlaw than to be a teacher or a chemist or accountant, then young black men will continue to go to prison in record numbers. If it is more acceptable to be violent and reckless than to be a responsible father and husband, then marriage will continue to decline in black communities. If you want to ruin a nation, a society or an ethnic group, persuade its members that the highest form of achievement lies in criminality."

Instead of indulging the inanities of those who would call in the Canadians to confiscate guns why not look at some of the societal factors that result in the criminal misuse of firearms.

There are functional societies awash in guns, even by US standards, like Switzerland, that are impressively crime free.

There are failed societies awash in guns, like Somalia who have yet to approach the level of butchery that a gun free Rwanda did.

Except for the intransigents for who any civilian ownership of firearms is an anathema, it would seem reducing the criminal misuse of firearms might best be addressed by determining what cause elements of out society to misuse them and finding a way to mitigate that without punishing those who do not.

So, back to the original question, does glorifying criminality in the thug culture contribute to more thugs doing more thugish things, like shooting the shit out of each other.

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