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Think the Second Amendment is obsolete? I found you some fellow travelers.

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:55 PM
Original message
Think the Second Amendment is obsolete? I found you some fellow travelers.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100611/us_time/08599199606400


Arizona's Next Immigration Target: Children of Illegals


Buoyed by recent public opinion polls suggesting they're on the right track with illegal immigration, Arizona Republicans will likely introduce legislation this fall that would deny birth certificates to children born in Arizona - and thus American citizens according to the U.S. Constitution - to parents who are not legal U.S. citizens. The law largely is the brainchild of state Sen. Russell Pearce, a Republican whose suburban district, Mesa, is considered the conservative bastion of the Phoenix political scene. He is a leading architect of the Arizona law that sparked outrage throughout the country: Senate Bill 1070, which allows law enforcement officers to ask about someone's immigration status during a traffic stop, detainment or arrest if reasonable suspicion exists - things like poor English skills, acting nervous or avoiding eye contact during a traffic stop...

....But the likely new bill is for the kids. While SB 1070 essentially requires of-age migrants to have the proper citizenship paperwork, the potential "anchor baby" bill blocks the next generation from ever being able to obtain it. The idea is to make the citizenship process so difficult that illegal immigrants pull up the "anchor" and leave. (See pictures of the Great Wall of America.)


The question is whether that would violate the U.S. Constitution. The 14th Amendment states that "all persons, born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." It was intended to provide citizenship for freed slaves and served as a final answer to the Dred Scott case, cementing the federal government's control over citizenship.


But that was 1868. Today, Pearce says the 14th Amendment has been "hijacked" by illegal immigrants. "They use it as a wedge," Pearce says. "This is an orchestrated effort by them to come here and have children to gain access to the great welfare state we've created." Pearce says he is aware of the constitutional issues involved with the bill and vows to introduce it nevertheless. "We will write it right." He and other Republicans in the red state Arizona point to popular sympathy: 58% of Americans polled by Rasmussen think illegal immigrants whose children are born here should not receive citizenship; support for that stance is 76% among Republicans. ....


We did warn you against 'cafeteria Constitutionalism'. Looks like the teabaggers now want to use your methods.

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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whoops!!!

Not so much fun when your own dishonest tactics are used against you, eh?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Say what????
Everybody and their fuckin' cousin got a gun in this country.

:wtf: Feeling persecuted because you can't have anti-tank missiles, maybe?
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You can own anti-tank missiles in the US.
As long as you have them registered with the government, pass the FBI background check, and pay for the $200 each tax stamp. Same as with fully automatic weapons, grenades, artillery pieces, etcetera.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Were you so sanguine when Bush mugged the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments?
Tapping people's emails without cause, torturing prisoners, and holding them without trial for years was OK with you?

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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I was pretty pissed back then too
Don't forget he promised to sign an extension of the "assault weapons" ban too.

Bush was no friend to gun owners.

He was friend to nobody but his special interests.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Where in the Second Amendment does it limit the sort of arms a citizen may bear?
The Constitution has long since been gutted, the drug war is based on a fucked up interpretation of the commerce clause that says me having a weed growing in my yard has an effect on interstate commerce. Going by that interpretation *anything* you do effects interstate commerce.

You're screaming about one amendment and one right when they basically all have been rendered impotent, except of course when powerful corporations wish to purchase politicians, then Constitutional protections have been expanded.

Maybe if gun owners had stood up for the rights of druggies and stoners to do as they please with their own fucking bodies (as an example) a long, long time ago I would give a damn about the Second Amendment but they didn't and I don't.

Oh, and FWIW, I was a Marine back a lifetime or two ago and qualified Expert with the M14 and the M16 and I can still outshoot my son in law who is also a Marine who qualified Expert, I'm not some shrinking violet that would faint at the very sight of a gun.

Do you get the impression I'm disgusted with America?





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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Read reply #5. I'm not ready to give up on *any* of the Constitution, even if others are.
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 09:09 PM by friendly_iconoclast
I have seen gun controllers in agreement with the Bush-Cheney administration and this asswipe teabagger in a willingness
to use un-Constitutional methods, and I most certainly did call them out on it at the time.

To all you apologists: Even "those people" have rights, and if you're willing to stand by while someone elses' rights are shat upon, don't be horribly surprised if someday yours are too.

Or to put it another way: Never serve a dish you wouldn't care to eat...
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The NRA and the great majority of RKBA types are enthusiastic drug warriors..
Because "those people" are the ones who like "drugs".

Perhaps the RKBA types should take your advice, they have no problem fucking with other people's lives and then want those other people to care about their particular concerns.

Not to mention that the Constitution is no more and no less than what the SCOTUS says it is, hence the fact that only a very limited subset of "arms" is legal for the private citizen to bear despite the fact that there are no qualifications in the Second Amendment.

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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You mean *conservatives* tend to be both pro-RKBA and pro-"War on Drugs"
That would be a correct assessment, but let's not conflate pro-RKBA with conservative. Libertarians tend (insofar as you can say anything about libertarians in general) to be pro-RKBA and vehemently oppose the so-called "War on Drugs," along with quite a few people who self-identify as liberal and/or Democrat (including quite a few Gungeon regulars).

At the same time, let's not pretend there haven't been plenty of non-conservatives who haven't been complicit in the abomination that is the so-called "War on Drugs." There's not one of my Democratic elected representatives at both the state and federal level who's willing to explicitly oppose the "War on Drugs" and I can only imagine that this is to a large extent because the indications are that that wouldn't be popular with swing voters, and probably a large number of regular Democratic voters as well.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Eh, Joe Biden is one of the most enthusiastic drug warriors around..
There really isn't a more bipartisan issue out there than that particular one.

But that doesn't change either of my points, the Constitution is what the SCOTUS says it is and the most enthusiastic RKBA types also tend to lean heavily toward being pro drug war.

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The Green Manalishi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Some, perhaps,
but please do not make generalizations.

I belong to, and participate in the NRA specifically because I can work at infusing some of the progressive ideals I have and subverting some of the 'God and Sara Palin' bullshit.
They got an ass-load of letters and some resignations over having her at their meeting. Pissed me off, but overall it is more important. I'll support the ACLU even when the cause they are defending is the vilest of 'porn' or hate speech or communication of anything by any media.
I believe in unions, single payer health care, marriage equality and most major tenets of the Green ideology. I speak, I write, I try to influence. yes, I also support the ACLU and dislike censors as much as gun restrictionists OR, JBL's - Jack Boot Lickers, my favorite term for 'drug warriors'.

Overt generalizations that the reader knows to be untrue only damage your case.

Respectfully.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. END THE DRUG WAR!
...and pass the ammunition.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Some of them, yes. I wouldn't say most.
The NRA and the great majority of RKBA types are enthusiastic drug warriors..

...

Maybe if gun owners had stood up for the rights of druggies and stoners to do as they please with their own fucking bodies (as an example) a long, long time ago I would give a damn about the Second Amendment but they didn't and I don't.

It is my observation that RKBA activists in general are more likely than the public at large to support drug law reform. Your statement may be correct for the subset of RKBA activists that are neocons, but it doesn't apply across the board, particularly to independents, Dems, and small-"l" libertarians. I think you and I probably agree on the need for a rationally based drug policy instead of repeating the failures of Prohibition.

I'd also point out that the most diehard drug warriors in Congress are by and large also diehard gun control proponents. Dianne Feinstein comes to mind...
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Gun owners are not a monolithic bloc.
They have a overlap of interests. Some of us would love to see current drug laws go the way of the 18th Amendment.

And for the most part, every gun owner I know or associate with likes and supports the entire Constitution, or at least honestly supports using the proper mechanism to change it.

But then, I don't tend to hang out with wing-nuts from either end of the spectrum, so my experience may be limited...
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I live in quasi rural Georgia..
I either get to hang with right wingnuts or be alone..

Mostly I stay alone.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
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