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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 11:26 AM
Original message
CCW holder killed Costco by police - Family puts up billboards looking for witnesses
Las Vegas, NV- The family of Erik Scott has begun a campaign to try and find out what really happened that Saturday afternoon when he was shot and killed by Metro officers.

"To hear the initial reports of what he was doing that day and what prompted Metro to shoot and kill him, it just doesn't make sense," said Anthony Bonifazio, a family friend.

Seven electronic billboards have gone up around Las Vegas asking for witnesses to come forward in the Costco shooting of Erik Scott.

"A forum or people to just be able to call anonymously and say, listen I was there and this is what I saw that day," asked Bonifazio of the public.

Metro is not saying much about the billboards, or the shooting, except for what was said in previous interviews with Action News.

http://www.ktnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12865668

It's been two weeks since three Las Vegas Metro cops shot and killed 38-year-old West Point graduate Erik Scott as he exited a Costco store in the upscale area of Summerlin on July 10.

So far, the incident has generated more questions than answers.

If officials lock up the evidence so you can't get the answers, print the questions.

Erik Scott had a permit; he could legally carry a firearm either open or concealed. It's a right. Mr. Scott was under no obligation to demonstrate a "need" to carry his firearms to the store (as some letter-writers have suggested), any more than you must demonstrate a "need" to go to church more than once a week.

Nor do I agree with those who would say, if police shot up a luncheon meeting of the Jaycees or the Rotary Club, that "Cops are getting edgy in this town; people are just going to have to be more cautious about how they exercise their right to assemble."

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/a-few-questions-for-metro-99190929.html?ref=929
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. When officers are dealing with CCW holders, they seem like they are much more aggressive.
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 12:03 PM by w4rma
Its as if they don't like anyone else owning a gun but themselves.
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dtexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Well, they need to be more aggressive when dealing with such nutcases.
But the police have to be kept accountable as well, so information should be released.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Nutcases abide by the law by getting permits for their guns? (nt)
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Please cease your slander immediately.
I also expect an apology forthwith.
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WheelWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. I beg your pardon ?!
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. So even though
I have no criminal history, have been employed at the same job for 35 years, and have a CHL, I am a nutcase? Take your vile and offensive statements and shove them where the sun don't shine.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Everybody's a "nutcase" in somebody's book
I'm sure there are people out there who consider you a "nutcase" and would make apology for excessive use of force by the police because "they need to be more aggressive when dealing with <...> nutcases" like you. Think about that next time you consider attending a public protest, and as you feel smell the OC spray from the line of baton-wielding riot cops advancing on you, ask not for whom the bell tolls. And hope the review board doesn't contain too many people who would consider you to be a "nutcase."
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. So, "nutcases" are any persons who have a CCW? Does your category...
of "nutcases" include people of different races? Nationalities? Places of origin? States of origin?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Thats an asshole thing to say. Here its a good guy card
every officer who has seen mine in a traffic stop had zero problem and could have cared less.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. That may depend on the state ...
I carry concealed in Florida and never have met a police officer who opposed honest licensed citizens carrying firearms.

I was pulled over once in Tampa for an expired license tag. I gave the officer my license, registration and insurance card and my concealed weapons permit. He merely glanced at it and made no comment.

Of course, concealed carry has been legal (with a license) for years in Florida. The police are very familiar with it. You can also carry a loaded firearm in your vehicle as long as it is "securely encased", for example in your glove box.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. That has not been my experience.
Edited on Thu Jul-29-10 04:02 PM by GreenStormCloud
When I have been traffic stopped, and once when in an accident, and once when on the side of the road needing assistance, I informed the officer that I had a CHL and was armed. The officers were polite both before and after I told them. (I say it like this, as I present them with my DL and CHL, "Officer, I am required by state law to inform you that I am armed. I will do as you direct me to.")

One officer was funny. It was a female officer. She asked how many guns. I usually carry my primary and a back-up. But I was in my wife's car which also has a gun in the center console. So I answered, "Three." She thought I meant three on my body. She laughed and said, "Alright, my kind of man." I got a warning ticket.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. That hasn't been my experience here, either.
Edited on Thu Jul-29-10 04:48 PM by benEzra
I've informed LEO's of my carry status a few times (as required by NC law), and the response was "OK, thanks for letting me know" while continuing about their business.

Of course, in this case, it appears that the original caller did NOT tell 911 that they were dealing with a carry license holder. According to the transcript, the police seemed to think that the only person on-scene with a CHL was the manager; from what they were told, they were responding to an EDP with a gun who was trashing the store, which we now know to be false.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Same here - in fact I took a class last week taught by a police officer
He considers CHL among the good guys (and gals) and has no problem with us.
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Mandell Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
109. I had a traffic stop....
I assumed my info would be tagged as a CPL (Concealed Pistol License in Michigan) holder. I unloaded the gun and informed him I was a CPL holder.

'No problem, go ahead and reload'

"huh? I would think you'd rather I keep it unloaded"

'Nah, we don't worry about you guys, you've told us where you live'
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. On another forum, someone posted what is purported to be the message traffic
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 12:12 PM by benEzra
between dispatch and the responding officers. If this is accurate, and based on eyewitness accounts of Mr. Scott's behavior in the store, it seems that the account of what was going on may have gotten, shall we say, "embellished" a little by the time the story was given to 911.

Somebody on TOS claims to have found the radio traffic from this event from a scanner archive site and has produced a transcript:

Quote:
Dispatcher: Units in V3, a 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. The male is inside the business to the rear of, has a 413 that's tucked into the back of his pants. We're still landline. (6:53)

K916: K916 back on channel. (7:03)

D: K916 (7:04)

AIR5: AIR5, we're going to go to the Costco first. (7:11)

D: AIR5, copy. (7:14)

2X12: 2X12 (7:20)

D: 2X12 (7:21)

2X12: You can disregard the air unit, I see customers coming out (related to a seperate 407A) (7:25)

D: 2X12 copy. K914, if you could be en route with AIR5 on the 413 at Costco in V3, 801 S. Pavillion Center. (7:35)

K916: K916, you can assign me as well. (7:42)

D: K916, copy. (7:44)

D: 2V16, if you'll also be en route on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. The male inside the business is acting erratic, throwing merchandise around, possibly high on unknown type of 446. (8:03)

2V16: 2V16 copy, from the Suncoast. (8:07)

D: 2V16, they are requesting CIT. Male is possibly ED. 767, did you copy? (8:16)

767: Put me en route to that please. (8:19)

D: 767. (8:21)

2DP62: 2DP62, clear me and show me en route. (8:25)

D: 2DP62. (8:26)

767: 767 (8:37)

D: 767. (8:38)

767: Go ahead and have medical en route also, just to stand by for us. (8:41)

D: 767, copy. (8:42)

2V55: 2V55, can you clear me B-baker and show me en route to Costco. (8:53)

D: 2V55, affirmative. (8:56)

2V16: 2V16 en route code. (8:58)

D: 2V16 (9:00)

2V55: 2V55, same traffic. (9:04)

D: 2V55 (9:05)

351WC: 351. (9:11)

D: 351 (9:12)

351WC: Have those units shut down code when they get close. Let's not get this guy more exicted than he already is. (9:18)

D: 351, copy. Units, shut down code when you get close to the Costco. (pause) (9:23)

D: Units en route on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center, suspect's described as a White male, 32, 5'8, medium build, red hair, wearing a gray t-shirt, blue jeans, and white shoes, break. A black 9MM is tucked to the rear of his pants. (pause) (9:53)

D: 767, could you advise where you'd like medical to stage for now? (10:46)

767: Just have them stage, uh to the nearest intersection to that Costco. If you could have them not roll code, that'd be great also. (10:57)

D: 767 copy. Did you want other units to shut down code? (11:02)

767: I just want everybody to shut it down before they get close to that area; I don't want to spook this guy. (11:08)

D: Okay, copy. All units, justs reminding to shut down code when you get close to the area. (11:13)
767: 767 (11:18)

D: 767 (11:20)

767: I need a few more units that could head to that area also, so that we can shut down that parking lot so that nobody goes in or out of there. (11:28)

D: 767, copy. (11:31)

2X12: 2X12, you can assign me. (11:33)

D: 2X12 (11:35)

2X65: 2X65, same traffic. (11:43)

D: 2X65 (11:45)

351WC: Control, 351, where's the CP going to be? (11:49)

D: 767, can you advise? (11:54)

767: I'm not even close to there right now, so if we have a unit that's in there that could set up one real quick, that'd be great. (12:01)

2V54: 2V54, I'm arriving in the Costco parking lot, where do you want me? (12:07)

D: 2V54, at this time uh, I guess heading up a CP. (12:16)

AIR5: AIR5, did you have any further at all? (12:22)

D: It looks like the subject is still inside the business, argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave, telling him there's no 413's allowed inside the business, break. The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around; he's still in isle 126 in the camping area, break. He appears to be fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30s, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans. Security's going to be standing outside the business in front of, to wait for officers to direct, break. He's walking through the camping area towards the front of the business on the main isle. (13:18)

2V54: 2V54, did you want me to stop people from going in the business? (13:22)

D: Uh 767, that's affirmative. Stop in or out? (13:26)

767: Affirm. (13:28)

D: V54, affirmative, uh V54, did you want a red? (13:32)

2V54: Hold off for a moment. (13:34)

D: Okay, copy. (13:35)

2X65: Control, 2X65 (13:37)

D: 2X65 (13:38)

2X65: Run this by the WC and Sarge. If we could get the management and employees to start slowly evacuating people out of the business without alerting anybody, that'd be a great idea. (13:50)

351WC: Control, 351WC, absolutely. (13:53)

D: Acknowledge that. (13:57)

2V54: 2V54, manager says it's escalating inside and he's still talking loudly and destroying merchandise. (14:06)

D: 2V54, copy. 2V54, are you able to get security started on exacuations? (14:14)

2V54: Affirm (14:16)

D: Okay, copy. (14:17)

2V16: 2V16, I'm out with 2V54. (14:55)

D: 2V16 (14:57)

Unknown bit of traffic (14:59)

D: All units, code red this channel. Officers arriving on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. (15:07)

2V16: 2V16, we need units to clear these people out of here. We're attempting to evacuate right now; get as many people out as possible. (15:45)

D: 2V16, copy. (15:47)

351WC: 351WC, where's the CP? (16:45)

D: Uh 2V54, can you advise location of CP? (16:50)

AIR5: AIR5, they're both right in the front entrance to the store. (16:55)

D: AIR5, copy. (16:57)

784: 767, 784 I'm arrived. What can I help you out with? (17:07)

767: You can set up the CP, that'd be great. (17:10)

784: : Copy, I'll set one up. (17:15)

AIR5: AIR5, are we still landline with anyone who has eyes on this guy, because there's a lot of people pouring out of the store. I just want to make sure he doesn't slip out. (17:28)

2V16: We got 2 officers here at the front doors watching everybody come out. (17:36)

D: 2V16, copy. AIR5, it looks like we're still landline. It looks like the male is still being watched by inside personnel due to him ripping open packages. They're concerned of a 414A. (17:49)

2V16: Copy, we've got a very orderly evacuation going on right now. We'll try to get all these people out of here and then figure out what we're going to do next. (18:00)

D: 2V16. (18:01)

2V54: He's directly in the middle of the building. (18:08)

D: Okay, copy. Confirming suspect's directly in the center of the building? (18:14)

2V54: ___ isle. (18:16)

D: You broke on the isle, could you re-advise? (18:20)

784: 784, copy location for IC. (18:31)

D: 784 (18:32)

784: It's going to be set up at the northwest parking lot at the Red Rock Casino across Charleston. It'll be the Costco command. I'll be incident commander until the arrival of 351WC. (18:46)

D: 784 copy. 351WC, incident command at northwest parking lot of Red Rock Casino across Charleston. (18:55)

AIR5: Control, AIR5, we need 1 unit to take the north side of the Costco please, right off of Pavillion Center so they can keepy an eye on the back and the east side. (19:02)

2V16: (yell) 2V16, we got shots fired, shots fired! (19:11)

D: 2V16, copy. Anyone down? (19:12)

2V16: Roll medical. (19:13)

D: 2V16. (19:15)

767: Go ahead and make the notifications. (19:19)

2V16: Notify supervisor. (19:21)

D: 2V16, copy. (19:22)

351WC: 351WC, I'm arrived, south end of the building. Is it safe for everybody else to enter the building? (19:28)

D: 2V16, can you advise? (19:30)

2V16: He pulled a 413 and pointed it in my direction. (19:38)

D: 2V16, copy. (19:40)

767: 767, can yu go ahead and make your notifications, please? (19:43)

D: 767, copy. (19:45)

767: Shut that parking lot down, please. (19:47)

D: Units arriving on the 413, shut down the parking lot. (19:51)

AIR5: They've got him out front, they're taking him into custody. Hold the traffic. (19:57)

D: AIR5, copy. Subject is out front, taking into custody. (20:01)

767: 767, let's make sure nobody else exit's that Costco right now. We may need to pull witness statements. (20:17)

D: 767, copy. Units, make sure no one else exits the Costco, they may need for witness purposes. (20:24)

784: Copy that they're taking him into custody. We're going to move the CP closer to the Burger King directly across from the Costco. (20:35)

D: Copy that, CP will be moving closer to the Burger King (20:39)


This was posted with the following comment:

Short story: Costco employees reported an agitated dude with a gun smashing the place up, possibly high, possibly emotionally disturbed.

...which again confirms why I don't want to be the subject of a 911 man-with-a-gun call, because you never know what hysterical crap the caller is going to tell the PD.


I also note the following, with interest: "The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413."

So again, if this is accurate, is licensed carry prohibited in Costco, or not?
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. another question
I wonder if the "Green Beret" manager is off the hook since a judge declared the Stolen Valor act unconstitutional?

There sure is a conflict in the reports as noted on the earlier thread. An elderly shopper reports the dead man as checking to see how many water bottles would fit in a pack while "a manager" is breathlessly telling dispatch "there's a nutcase with a gun high on something trashing the store."

Also a disconnect with several reports where he was asked about the gun by an employee. When he said he had a permit the employee stated permit didn't work in there and was asked to leave.

If someone at Costco, perhaps the "allegedly gun-toting Green Beanie manager", hyped up the description of event so the responding officers really expected a raving lunatic instead of there's a guy with a gun and we're not sure he's allowed to have it and we're too scared to ask.

One thing anyone who is legally armed has to remember that in any interaction with the police it is really good sense to do what your state laws require as to identifying yourself and your armed status.

When needed, I simply inform the officer I am legally armed and what would he like for me to do to keep from scaring him into shooting me. Normally, he chuckles and tells me he won't show me his if I don't show him mine. Then most of my encounters with the police are professional and not as result of someone deliberately feeding them misinformation so they arrive on the scene "spring-loaded" for a shootout.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Costco is private property
Your carry permit is just a piece of asswipe if the owner or manager asks you to leave.

I would have done the same as the manager.

The second the victim pulled his weapon on an officer, he was dead meat.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. You would have exaggerated the situation on the 911 call
Edited on Tue Jul-27-10 12:09 PM by benEzra
to make the police think there was an EDP waving a gun around and trashing the store? Read the transcript; if it's accurate, it would appear that's what dispatch passed along to them.

Nor did the victim "pull his weapon on an officer." It appears that an officer commanded him at gunpoint to put the weapon (which was in his waistband, under his shirt) on the ground, he attempted to comply, and other officers shot him. Poor communication and coordination on their part, and perhaps naive on his part, but they teach "obey any police commands" in CHL classes and he was a former military officer. In hindsight, he should have refused and simply put his hands on his head...

Yes, the manager had the authority to demand the guy leave. You did notice that the victim was shot outside the store, after he left, yes?
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. The Parking Lot is still Private Property.
My take is that the victim might have been suffering from PTSD, which makes it difficult to act rationally at times.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. He was intercepted while he and his fiancee were heading for his car to leave.
He wasn't "destroying merchandise" or "trashing the store" or "waving a gun around", nor did he appear to have done anything irrational outside the store other than to obey some very ill-advised police instructions. It does appear that Metro made a mistake here, and that mistake may have been facilitated by exaggerations on the 911 call, though that remains to be seen. The police did come into the situation with a sitrep that did not match reality; they came in expecting a berserk EDP, and responded accordingly, even though the reality was a medical device salesman walking to his car with his girlfriend.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. Can you cite to any evidence of PTSD?
I'm not seeing it.

Please don't use the "PTSD" as a victim card for all veterans, it's both inaccurate and demeaning.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. And you get "your take" from what? A dubious transcript of radio chatter?
Those are some diagnosing skills you have there!
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Radio chatter based on demonstrably bad information, at that. (n/t)
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Mandell Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
110. Investigation..
This needs investigation by someone other than the LVPD. The video evidence missing snacks of a cover-up.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
111. Witness statements indicate he was told to "drop it" and "get down on the ground"
http://www.lvrj.com/news/father-wants-las-vegas-police-held-accountable-in-son-s-death-98587719.html

If he was reaching for his pistol because he was told to disarm, a nervous officer who was screaming "on the ground" may well have interpreted evil intent.

Of the three officers, the one in command should have been issuing orders. The other officers should be following his lead. Conflicting orders should never be issued to a suspect.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. One good reason not to carry a gun in public:
That's what armed criminals do.

Mistakes do happen, unfortunately.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's also what an estimated six million licensed Americans do.
It's not an excuse for the police to shoot people.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why bother with a permit...
if you don't carry?

And why are you speculating on the size of my guns and my dick? None of your flippin' buisness, eh?
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You'd better not carry a wallet or a sunglasses case, or anything that might be mistaken for a gun
Clearly, it was all Amadou Diallo's fault that he got shot by NYPD because he didn't "use common sense," right?

It strikes me that in this kind of incident, even when the officers involved are cleared of criminal wrongdoing, there is usually some deficiency in police training that gets highlighted. In the Diallo shooting, one of the detectives involved tripped and fell, causing him to pull the trigger on his pistol. The sound of the gunshot was one of the things that prompted the other detectives to open fire; ergo, the negligent discharge contributed to Diallo's being shot. As a result, police training policy was altered to the effect that officers should keep their trigger finger on the frame of the gun, rather than the trigger guard (as was previously common), in order to prevent the finger slipping into the trigger guard and onto the trigger in a "sympathetic squeeze."

In this instance, part of the problem seems to have been that been that multiple officers were all shouting different instructions at the late Mr. Scott, and by attempting to follow one set of instructions, he made a move that prompted the other cops to shoot. Evidently, there needs to be a policy--or if there already is, it needs to be reinforced--that only one cop gives instructions to the suspect, and that use of force is only justified if the suspect fails to follow the instructions of that one cop.

And the penis remark is a bit gratuitous, don't you think? Not to mention counter-productive.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
105. Even a black wallet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE746ORvGbI
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. And I think you are
fibbing about a carry permit, why would you have a carry permit if you oppose carrying a gun? Doesn't make sense and if something doesn't make sense, it usually ain't true
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I don't oppose carrying a gun.
There are situations where it is useful to have one, such as carrying large deposits of cash for deposit and such. That doesn't mean I have to carry all the time.

Quit making shit up. I never said I was opposed. Do you have a learning disability?
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armueller2001 Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. This is funny to me...
so you would carry your firearm in a situation when you were carrying lots of cash, and would be willing to use it to prevent someone from taking your money away... but you would not carry in other situations where you may have to prevent someone from taking your life or the life of a loved one. Is that about right?

Priorities, priorities...
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I'd like to get your opinion here..
Please chime in here, I'd love to know your threshold.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x316554
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Sooo
if you just looked like you carried a lot of cash, or the amount of cash you carried seemed like a lot to somebody else who has none, or if somebody wasn't interested in cash at all but you looked like somebody they just wanted to kick the shit out of...
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
27.  I don't carry a lot of cash. But I have several thousand dollars
worth of tools that I use daily. They are my means of making a living. Should I be able to protect them the same as you protect your cash?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. You and me both.
The point is not what we may or may not have, but what somebody else thinks we may have or how much they may value what we have.

It could well be said that somebody who envies one's good health or very existence could want to kill you for it, which has nothing at all to do with money.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. "I don't oppose carrying a gun."
Really?

"I also don't walk around town with a gun in my belt that might provoke someone to call the police.

People need to use common sense.

A big gun doesn't make up for a tiny dick."



I'm not sure how else to interpret your statement. Hopefully you can clarify what you meant so the rest of us non-mindreaders can understand you better....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Can you tell me how you know...
"when you need to"? Because my crystal ball doesn't work that well.

Also, how do you know other peoples penis sizes? You might do better here without the unfounded sexist slanders.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
47. Yeah, didn't think so. n/t
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tourivers83 Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
101. Penis envy.
When my partner and I go out I often carry a big gun. Now I know she don’t one so how can you be so sure I do? :bounce: :loveya: :blush: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :patriot: :yoiks:
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. So you
would dictate when it is proper to carry a weapon? I stand by my earlier post.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. "big gun... tiny dick:" He who first smelt it dealt it -- Euripides. nt
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. So my Constitutional rights should be restricted...
because of actions by criminals?

Please tell me I'm translating you badly....?
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Perhaps if criminals didn't carry weapons in public ...
I wouldn't carry my licensed firearm either.

I wonder if it might be a good idea to focus gun control on criminals caught illegally carrying weapons. We could, like, put them in jail for a LONG time, or something.

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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. They wont do what they're told
Where's the fun in that ?
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. It's hard to believe that criminals wouldn't obey the law. (n/t)
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
106. They should be targeted just like
sex offenders. Many gun offenders are repeat offenders.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. It occurs to me that more education is needed, on two fronts
As I remarked elsewhere in this thread, it seems to me that this sort of outcome could be (more readily) avoided if police adopted a doctrine (or if they already have it, reinforce it) that whenever possible one, and only one, officer gives instructions to the suspect, instead of having multiple cops shouting orders. The latter is likely to confuse and fluster the suspect (thereby hampering compliance), even more so when the orders are contradictory.

It also couldn't hurt if law enforcement agencies made it clear to the public how they would like someone to behave when being stopped. The first time I got pulled over for a moving violation, I realized as I saw the flashing lights in my rear-view mirror that nobody had ever told me what to do in this situation. I've since read a column by Massad Ayoob that has been of some benefit to me, but it was mostly luck that I came across it all; nobody made an effort to make me aware of its contents.

Given that confrontations between police and private citizens can be fraught with tension (sometimes through no fault of either party, e.g. when someone exaggerates the severity of an incident in progress to a 911 dispatcher so as to prompt a faster police response), and that making wrong moves can result in someone getting killed, there really needs to be more clarity about what you--as a private citizen--should and should not do so as to defuse the situation as much as possible.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yup.
In CHL classes, the instructor will often tell you that if there is ever a misunderstanding, to do whatever the officer tells you to. I think that in this case, Mr. Scott should have disobeyed the command to retrieve his gun and drop it, and instead maybe put his hands on his head and kneel or something. Looking at the situation in this case, it appears to me that obeying that ill-advised command cost him his life, and disobeying it would have likely allowed the situation to resolve without incident.

I very much hope that we will get a transcript of the 911 call, and that it and the store security videos don't disappear due to mysterious malfunctions as has happened in a few prior cases. Fingers crossed.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. In NC they made it really clear. The officers have been instructed as well.
roll your window half way down hand the permit over after informing the officer. Police in NC will not disarm you unless you are going to be arrested (dwi, whatever)..

Now personally I would ask the officer to disarm me and hope he doesn't shoot me with my own pistol by mistake. I cant think of a circumstance where I would want to be removing a weapon from my person to hand to an officer.

I would rather let them run the show. That said my lifestyle choices make being arrested pretty remote.

It also underscores the concealed means concealed mindset. If it is going to print change clothes or get a smaller pistol, better holster etc.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
44. Family Attorney Outraged Over Inquest Delay
LAS VEGAS -- The postponement of a Clark County coroner's inquest into the police shooting of Erik Scott at a Summerlin Costco is creating even more controversy.

An attorney for Scott's family is outraged, but Clark County District Attorney David Roger says there's a legitimate reason for the delay. Roger says for reasons beyond Metro's control, the original coroner's inquest date simply won't work.

The original date was September 3, the Friday before the Labor Day holiday weekend. But after meeting with investigators, the DA believes this case will take at least two days to present to the coroner's inquest jury.

"There are going to be a great number of witnesses who believe they saw something at Costco that day, so we felt we needed additional time," he said.

Both sides claim to have more than a dozen people who witnessed Scott's shooting on July 10. Attorney Ross Goodman, who represents Scott's family, has said all along he believes store surveillance video will refute Metro's claim that Scott posed a threat and pulled a gun on officers.

http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12887384
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. This is going to get really nasty.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
48. Links to stuff...
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/24347577/detail.html (ALCU Questions Coroner's Inquest Process)

http://www.inmemoryoferikscott.org/ (Sad Pics)

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=143710002305960 (Erik Scott Memorial)

http://www.facebook.com/Costco (Costco's Facebook Page. They are deleting posts about Erik Scott every so often)
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. Police have seized the Costco surveillance hard drives.
They are being sent for forensic analysis.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. "forensics anlysis"
:rofl:

I doubt the dead guy planted faked tapes.

I just hope the tapes of these cops executing this guy in cold blood don't accidentally get erased.
"Ooops a gltch somehow we lost everything."
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. One news report I read said there was a glitch in thier DVR system.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. Of course there will be a "glitch". nt
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. Was it " The Big Easy " ?
Busted by internal affairs for corruption , and they have it tape . So he buys a big assed magnet with a handle on it in a pawn shop , walks around the corner and tosses it through a window . Fuzz shows up , takes the report and sends the magnet to the evidence locker where his buddy wanders up and down the aisles and eventually sets it directly on top of the envelope containing the video tape evidence of his bribery . .. .. .. Oops .
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
77. Those were video of inside the store.
Forensic analysis could tell if something had been erased and possibly recover what had been deleted.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
54. I recall the CCW-fanatics crowing about how they got the "No Concealed Carry" placards pulled down
...in shops all over Ohio.

The Ohio police professional association opposed the Republican concealed carry campaign because they knew that somebody carrying a firearm was going to create a situation like this and the police would have to respond quickly.

Why the fuck does somebody need to carry a firearm into Costco? The only reason I could think of is if he is a cocaine dealer who does not want to leave his product and big sums of cash in the car where they might get stolen. Of course there is the explanation that he was a paranoid douchebag with some misplaced sense of machismo.

I am going to write to my Costco store and tell them to put up signs saying "no firearms".
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Ummm, Costo is one of the few stores left that IS paranoid about licensed CCW.
Which may account for the incorrect info that was apparently given to the police about Mr. Scott.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Are you saying that dead Scott violated a store firearms-ban that was posted at the entrance?
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I've never seen a "no firearms" sign at a Costco
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 11:27 AM by Euromutt
Admittedly, I've only been to Costcos here in Washington state, Oregon and California, but I do actively look for such signs (especially when I'm carrying). Costco seems a little hypocritical in that regard; reportedly, they do have a policy against firearms in their stores, but that policy isn't written down where customers can read it. It's not on the website, and I've never seen it on the door. Their position seems to be equivalent to establishments in Texas that put "no firearms" signs on the door that don't meet the requirements of Section 30.06 and thus have no legal force; it mollifies the actively hoplophobic customers while not actually telling the CCW permit holders they can't carry.

But even if there had been a "no firearms" sign at the Costco in question, then what? We'd be talking second degree criminal trespass, a misdemeanor; not exactly something that justifies the responding officers immediately resorting to the threat of lethal force.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. Are you claiming this homicide was justified?
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 05:03 PM by friendly_iconoclast
That's more than a bit harsh for something that at it's worst was trespassing- and he was leaving, anyway.

If Costco didn't like his packing in their warehouse, they could have asked him to leave, which they did *not* do

Further:

Just who the hell are you to decide what civil rights another person 'needs' to exercise?

Also, you've talked a lot of trash about a person who you do not know. If you have some actual facts about
him (beyond "he did something that I don't approve of, for reasons I'll speculate about", that is) let's have them.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Why do you "need" to post your opinion?
The point is, who am I to determine your needs and who are you to determine the needs of others, especially when that "need" is a right?
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Here's why you carry a firearm into a store ...
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 12:21 PM by spin
First assume that you live in a state where it's legal to carry, you have the necessary permits (if required) and you have a firearm with you.

You enter the parking lot and exit your car. Your choices are:

1) Leave your firearm in the car.

2) Carry your firearm with you.

If you leave your firearm in the car, someone may break into the car and steal it. In fact your car may be stolen from the parking lot with the firearm inside.

The most dangerous part of shopping may the the trip to and from your car in the parking lot.


For me, this sad story was in the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "Déjà vu all over again." Just the year before I had been consulted on another case involving the abduction and brutal rape of a young college girl from the parking lot of a Wal-Mart. Again, no security was present and no one patrolled the parking lot. The young woman displayed enormous courage in fighting back against her attacker, screaming and struggling as she was seized from the Wal-Mart. She survived the attack managing to flee bleeding and naked to a nearby home. Her assailant is still at large. The Wal-Mart parking lot where the attack took place had been the scene of two violent homicides only a short time before.

So is the fact that Wal-Mart parking lots offer a disproportionate opportunity for criminals come as a surprise to Wal-Mart?

"Three years ago management conducted a survey that looked at crime statistics for a one year period on Wal-Mart properties. The survey showed that 80% of crimes at Wal-Mart were occurring in the parking lot.

To combat this outdoor crime a team of loss prevention members tested a new parking lot security program in 1994 at several Florida stores. The results have been outstanding. During the four months of operating the patrol vehicles at that store (in Tampa Florida which experienced 226 stolen cars from the parking lot previously) the reported incidents dropped to zero. The patrol program costs Wal-Mart $45,000.00 dollars per year per store."

Loss Prevention Racks Up Success, by Dave Gorman, then vice-president of loss prevention Wal-Mart Bentonville, Arkansas

Yet the overwhelming majority of these facilities open 24 hours a day, accommodating up to 2,000 parking spaces on an average, who's shopping demographic are a majority of female customers still do not provide security to their patrons where they know they are vulnerable.

"A quick review of reported cases reveals that Wal-Mart parking lots are a virtual magnet for crime"

-Justice Starcher, West Virginia Supreme Court Doe v. Wal-Mart, Inc. 210 W. Va. 664, 558 S.E. 2d 663 (2001)
http://www.jrrobertssecurity.com/articles/wal-mart-parking-lot-crime.htm




Self Defense-Parking Lot Safety

Posted By admin on August 20, 2009

There is nothing more impressive than shopping in a mega mall with more stores than you can visit in a year. The malls get bigger and bigger every year. With more square footage and more stores comes bigger parking lots. Bigger parking lots mean more and more customers have to park further away from the final destination. It is good exercise for sure to make that trek; however, it is fraught with potential risks among them are theft, vandalism, rape, assault, robbery and even kidnapping.

Unfortunately, predators take advantage of situations where a woman is by herself late at night in a near empty parking lot. A woman in those circumstances can be caught off guard and rendered helpless.

Here are some tips to avoid potential trouble and to conduct self defense in a parking lot:

1. Lock your car on arrival. Keyless entry is best for time savings.
2. Park as close to your destination as possible.
3. If help is available, make sure you take advantage of it. Most grocery stores still offer his service.
4. Try making most shopping trips during the day.
5. Be aware of your surroundings. Is the parking lot well lit? Are there areas where a predator could hide?
6. Listen to that inner voice. It is better and wiser to be safe than sorry. If you don’t feel comfortable get a manager or security guard to go with you.
7. Upon approaching your car, look around, in, underneath and next to your car. There are accounts where women have had their foot licked by a pervert as she was trying to get into her car. Be suspicious of a van next to your car.
8. Once inside the car, quickly lock all doors. Most people let their guard down once inside their car.
9. If you are alone wait until others walk by and join them.
10. Avoid strangers.
11. Carry some non lethal self defense weapons like pepper spray or some type of personal alarm.
http://www.emergencysteps.net/wordpress/self-defense-parking-lot-safety/


Let me also point out that if I go to a Costco store where someone like you has convinced the management to place "no firearms" signs on the entrances, I will call the store manager.

I will ask him if he has parking lot security. If he replies in the negative, I will point out to him that if I do shop at his store, I will not carry my weapon. However if I am attacked in his parking lot, I will sue as he took away my ability to defend myself from attack.

I also will tell him that the chances of my ever shopping at his store are extremely slim as long as he has competitors who do not post "no firearm" signs. However, his store stands a good chance of getting sued by someone with a carry permit if they are attacked in the parking lot while disarmed. I will advise him to invest in parking lot security if he wishes to continue to post his "No firearms" signs.

If he denies me my right to carry a weapon for self defense while on his property, then obviously he needs to provide adequate security as a substitute.

edited for fat fingers
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Costco doesn't care.
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 03:13 PM by Statistical
They have been clearly anti self defense for 20+ years. They have never changed their stance, even organized letter drives and boycotts haven't got them to change their stance.

Why would you hassle local management? The local manager at Costco has no authority to change rules set by corporate. Costco stores are not individually owned and operated. It makes about as much sense as yelling at customer service person at bank over an overdraft fee. You can write to corporate tomorrow and get a response similar to this one.


From: Stephanie Bradley
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:43 PM
To: Investor Relations
Subject: RE: Banning guns

Dear Mr. xxx,

This email is in response to your October 20, 2006 letter to our Investor Relations department, regarding Costco's "No Firearms" policy at its warehouse stores.

As an initial matter, Costco is not a place of "public accommodation" within the meaning of civil rights laws. The definition of "public accommodation" does not include a bona fide private club or other establishment that is not in fact open to the public. Costco Wholesale is a membership-only warehouse club. It is not open to the general public. It restricts membership to a limited group of qualified individuals who agree to membership conditions. We have the right, and the obligation to our members, to enact and enforce membership rules. The Member Service Employees at the exit doors are obliged to follow these rules. By obtaining a Costco membership card, our members agree to comply with the Membership Rules and the Privileges and Conditions of membership.

Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world. This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each individual city/county/state/country where we do business. The shopping experience is not enhanced by bringing a firearm into our warehouse.

Our primary goal at Costco Wholesale is to keep our members happy.

Sincerely,

Stephanie Bradley
Executive Assistant to:
. . Joel Benoliel - SVP-Legal & Administration
. . Paul Latham - VP-Membership, Marketing & Services
sabradley@costco.com


Your options are
a) accept it
b) move to a state like TX where Cotsco is required to use specific signage
c) shop somewhere else
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. To be honest, I have never shopped at a Costco ..
None of their warehouses were located close to where I live.

But since they are against CCW, as your letter showed, I will avoid ever giving their chain my business.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Costco would shit if they knew how many people packed in their Massachusetts warehouses
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 05:11 PM by friendly_iconoclast
I don't, btw, but know of more than a few people that do- and not all of them cops.

Seems to be a DADT situation, as the CCL holders of my acquaintance that do this aren't "those people", by and large.

Apparently, the local management doesn't tell the higher-ups what the bigwigs don't need to hear...
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. America is generally a safe place. One does not need a firearm to go out in public.
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 07:52 PM by Kolesar
This isn't the fucking Philipines.

What Mr. Dead Man Shopping never learned was to leave his gun outside if he is going to go into a store and be a dick.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Your odds of being the victim of violent crime are 1 in 50. (2007 DOJ data)
Your odds of having a house fire are 1 in 263 (2008 CDC data.)

Which makes more sense, having smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher, or having a firearm?

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Fire-Prevention/fires-factsheet.html

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1743
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Having a flu shot
...wash your hands frequently and drive slowly
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. ....? Sorry, not getting your point. n/t
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Where the risk is...eom
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I was gonna say.. getting a flu shot..
.. doesn't repel criminal attack, lol.

Personally, I'm prepared for many rare yet serious potential problems. Heck, I'm prepared for some rare yet not too serious problems, too.

In my laptop bag, I have a multi-tool, a package of band-aids, a tin of tylenol, a couple of antacid tablets. In my cars, I have a fire extinguisher, flashlight, jumper cables, a pint of all fluids, a small tool kit, a thermal blanket, a couple of bottles of water, and some energy bars.

Regarding driving slowly, though- according to the NHTSA, there are 2.9M vehicular crash injuries per year, with ~210M drivers. That's a 1 in 72 chance (per driver).

1 in 50 is still a bigger risk, but we still require seat belts.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. How do you know what his behavior was like? And did it justify his being shot?
You're spending a lot of energy trying to justify a homicide, apparently because the deceased practiced something you disapprove of.

So far, we have:

Eyewitness reports that conflict with each other, a garbled police radio transcript, and a video recording with a 'glitch'.

If you've got something more, show it. Otherwise, you're just pissing on a dead guy because he had the temerity to carry a concealed
weapon into a Costco.
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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
88. Nothing justifies being shot in the back.
The cowards that call themselves the 'police' seem to be just frightened little kids.

What is with the new directives being taught to them that says only shoot to kill?
Is their aim that bad? Haven't they been taught how to control a weapon?

In the old days(not that long ago) getting shot in the back would earn the shooter the chair.
So, now the cops are doing it pretty regularly. I say it's war, damnit(JK).
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. There is no 'shoot to kill' directive.
It's 'shoot to stop'- and that goes for cops and everyone else.

Shooting people in the legs, or shooting a gun out of a bad guy's hand is hollywood bullshit. Always has been.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Statistically you may be right ...
However, there is a danger of being a target in a parking lot and also the possibility that someone might break into your car and steal your firearm, or steal your car with the firearm inside. Again the odds are not high, but they DO exist.


Shopping Centers & Malls

Shopping centers come in all sizes from the giant regional malls to the small strip-center with only a few stores. What they have in common is a parking lot. This is where your family is at greatest risk because of the "nature" of a shopping center parking lot. The most common violent crimes committed in the parking lot are stranger-on-stranger purse snatch and strong-arm robbery and occasionally carjackings and abductions.

If you think about it, we are all strangers in a large parking lot. Violent criminals can blend in with the rest of us and get in close proximity fairly easily. Criminal predators can walk right by us and we will allow it because of the public setting. Next time you go to a large shopping center sit in the parking lot for a few minutes and observe how easy it would be for a criminal predator to approach and attack you or your family. Shoppers walk to and from their cars totally consumed by their thoughts and thinking about what they are going to do next. Watch shoppers as they approach their cars fumbling for their keys. They will turn their backs and attention completely away from those nearby to load their shopping bags into the car, and get children and infants installed inside the vehicle. Most shopping center and parking lot abductions and carjackings occur precisely at this point.

To protect your family in this setting the best defense is awareness. Awareness will allow you anticipate the potential danger and plan ahead for the next time you go to a shopping center. Planning includes selecting a safer time to shop (daylight) and arranging not to shop alone if possible. You can plan where to park (i.e. not next to a large enclosed van) and in high traffic areas. You can plan to scan the area for suspicious males before parking and exiting your vehicle. You can also plan not to park or exit your vehicle if suspicious males are in the area. Families should agree in advance to exit and enter their vehicle quickly and lock the doors. Families should be trained to look around their vehicle before approaching and retreat if anyone suspicious is loitering in the area. They should be trained to return quickly to the shopping center and alert mall security or call the police. A little awareness (educated-paranoia) is healthy and can keep your family safe.

* Be aware and alert to predators in the parking lot
* Plan when to go and where to park
* Do not get out of the car if not safe to do so
* Scan the area around your car as you approach it
* Teach your family to enter and exit the care quickly
* Return to the store if anyone looks or acts suspicious
* Call the police and notify mall security of any criminal activity
http://www.crimedoctor.com/shopping.htm


I have no idea if the man was a "dick" inside the store. It's possible that the video will be recovered and we will find out. In my opinion, merely carrying a licensed firearm concealed does not make a person a "dick". You may disagree and you have every right to your opinion.

Obviously, you oppose concealed carry in areas where the public shops. I don't and in fact I carry a concealed weapon. I don't have any real fear that I will ever find myself in a situation where I may have to use my weapon, but I lack the ability to predict the future. I put the time and effort into becoming proficient with my firearm and obtaining a concealed carry permit. Why should I leave it behind?

You might be very upset if we were in the same store and you knew I was carrying. However, you would never know or even suspect that I was "packing heat". You would just see me as some old fart with a bad limp just simply shopping. If by chance we stopped to talk, you would find me polite and courteous.

You chose to believe from the statistics that there is little danger in stores or parking lots and you are right. I look at the same data and see that there is a slight chance of being in a situation where I might have to use my concealed weapon in legitimate self defense and I carry. No big deal either way.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
79. The U.S. has over one million violent crimes per year.
Can you guarantee that a criminal won't select me as his next victim? That is why I go armed.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. More slander from you.
Shocking.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. You learned a new word to use in the DU forum...eom
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. And here's another new word: Zampolit
Orignally, a political officer whose job it was to keep ideological purity in a military command or naval vessel.

Lately, it's been used to denote those self-appointed "defenders of progressivism" here in the Gungeon who somehow feel it's their duty to lecture other DUers on how guns are icky and/or merely possessing one will turn you into a teabagging neo-nazi serial killer who will inevitably "snap" one fine day and slaughter innocent people. Strangely enough, these people are never moderators.

The latest line from one of these zampolits: If you shop with a concealed weapon, you deserve to be shot.

To quote the founder of Faber College: Knowledge is good!
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. "If you shop with a concealed weapon, you deserve to be shot."
Those are *your* words, not mine.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. That is a partial quote, taken out of context
The full quote is "Orignally, a political officer whose job it was to keep ideological purity in a military command or naval vessel.

Lately, it's been used to denote those self-appointed "defenders of progressivism" here in the Gungeon who somehow feel it's their duty to lecture other DUers on how guns are icky and/or merely possessing one will turn you into a teabagging neo-nazi serial killer who will inevitably "snap" one fine day and slaughter innocent people. Strangely enough, these people are never moderators.

The latest line from one of these zampolits: If you shop with a concealed weapon, you deserve to be shot.

Honesty IS a good policy.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. Ninja, please; you've been implying it pretty heavily
You've intimated in so many words across several posts that the late Erik Scott's being fatally shot by police was a foreseeable consequence of his behavior, the logical upshot being that, had he not shuffled off his mortal coil, he would have no-one to blame but himself; and that anyone who carries a firearm in public is engaging in at least equally morally reprehensible behavior as the late Erik Scott (possibly more so), and thus will have no-one to blame but themselves if they end up being fatally shot by (possibly overly jumpy and badly coordinated) agents of the state.

If you don't like the logical conclusion that may be inferred from your stated opinions, you might want to reconsider your opinions rather than trying to shoot the messenger (metaphorically speaking).
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #67
80. And you have yet to actually address a single point raised to you.
FYI, you are perilously close to trolling.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. dont call forum other forum users "trolls"
That is in the DU rules.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Your a good
one to be talking about rules, and where the hell do you get off lecturing others about conceal carry, next time I want to carry I will check with the Dept. of Needs, Oh shit, I lost my mind for a moment, their is no Dept. of Needs.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. "where the hell do you get off lecturing others about conceal carry,"
Exactly
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Where did I ever
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 09:54 AM by cowman
lecture about conceal carry? If you don't want to carry, fine, but don't lecture me about the need to conceal carry, I am a law abiding citizen who has never been in trouble with LE, been at the same profession for 35 years, had a CHL for several years and never had to use it yet and hope to hell I never have to, so what is the problem with me carrying? Or is it just your elitist attitude?
BTW, the ONLY reason I don't carry on duty is because the City of Las Vegas, my employer, takes a dim view of their Firefighters being armed on duty
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
78. Why I carry inside any store.
Because it isn't a good idea to be constantly putting the gun on and taking it off for every place I go. I put my guns on when I leave and wear them everywhere until I return.

You can't predict when or where trouble will happen.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
112. Well, let's see
The nearest Costco is 2.5 hours away. As a female, I'm not fucking driving that far unarmed. If my car breaks down in the middle of New Mexico, I'm damned well going to be armed. Additionally, the safest place for my firearm is on my person, not in my glove box or tossed under my seat. If my car is broken into, my firearm is going to be stolen.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
90. One month and the video still isn't released. N/T
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. I don't think the video still exists. The cops are in full cover up mode.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. My daughter tells me
Edited on Sun Aug-15-10 10:36 AM by cowman
that there is a fierce internal debate going on at Metro about whether this was or wasn't a good shoot. She just thanks her lucky stars that she wasn't there that day, she was on the other side of Vegas.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I hope that the least that comes out of this...
is some training in exactly this type of scenario, a legally armed Citizen and multiple officers.

Who takes charge at the scene (I would say first officer to arrive...), who gives orders, take some time to observe and evaluate prior to using lethal force.

Yeah, it's easy to critique from my keyboard. But the longer they stall, the worse it looks for the police. I hope they get some info to the public soon.
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. I'm wondering, if any video still exists, if there will be audio. I don't like
to speculate without all the evidence in but I find the lack of transparency telling as well. I'm currently thinking that there were conflicting orders by the police to both, "freeze, don't move" and "drop the gun slowly". The CCL holder complied with "drop the gun slowly" and was shot by the ones that said "freeze, don't move". If this is the case that makes this a VERY serious issue for a whole number of reasons.

If there is no evidence that supports my supposition then all the possible ramifications go away - or are kicked down the road for this to be an issue some other day.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Costco stands to lose too
They have not been forthcoming with the 911 tapes either. Did, as reported earlier, the self-proclaimed Green Beret manager exaggerate the incident by claiming to police that Mr. Scott was trashing the store, causing a disturbance, and appeared to be under the influence of drugs while waving a gun around?
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-15-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. You are absolutely correct. n/t
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
97. More information on shooting and inquest
Edited on Fri Aug-20-10 09:52 AM by one-eyed fat man
Coronor's inquest delayed

The inquest had been set for Sept. 3; no new date has been set.

The postponement angered attorney Ross Goodman, who is representing the Scott family.

Goodman said police have claimed key evidence, such as the 911 recording from Costco employees to police and any surveillance video, could be released at the inquest.

Goodman said 15 witnesses, including doctors and lawyers who were within five feet of the shooting, have said "unequivocally" that not only was Scott not pointing a gun, he was no threat and had no time to react to multiple police commands before he was shot.

Goodman said Scott was shot seven times, including once in the chest, once in the shoulder, and five times in the back while he was on the ground.


While at least one poster up thread has intimated the "Mr Dead Man Shopping" got what he deserved for having a CCW, it appears questions will remain unanswered for a while. What little evidence can be gleaned from radio traffic with the air unit, and the fact that a helicopter and three ground units were dispatched, it is likely the call from the Costco manager convinced police this was more than a simple trespass call. Thus arriving on the scene all thoroughly adrenalized three cops made conflicting demands. Unable to do all three things at once, the victim complied with one set of demands, thus one maybe two shots came from cops whose demands were not met. The five in the back after he was already down were just "righteous retribution."

Little wonder the 911 tapes and the surveillance hard drives are unavailable.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. "...five times in the back while he was on the ground". And those here that blamed him are silent.
Edited on Sat Aug-21-10 06:52 PM by friendly_iconoclast
They must have had an urgent appointment. Or something.


I have three words for Costco in re the Scott case: "Charge against earnings"

Make it a big one, as you'll surely be sending several millions of dollars to Scott's estate. Ditto to the Clark County SO....
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. The date for the inquest hearing is now Sept.22-24...

New Coroner's Inquest Set For Costco Shooting
Original Sept. 3 Hearing Postponed

POSTED: 9:37 am PDT August 19, 2010

LAS VEGAS -- The Clark County Coroner’s Office has rescheduled the inquest hearing into an officer-involved shooting at a Summerlin Costco for Sept.22-24.

Three officers and several witnesses are expected to testify about the July 10 shooting of 38-year-old Erik Scott.

Scott was outside the store when he was approached by officers, who said he pulled a gun on them, forcing them to shoot. Scott was carrying two guns, but had a concealed weapons permit.

His family and several witnesses have argued that Scott never threatened the officers. In the weeks that followed, the family has posted billboards demanding police release videotapes of the shooting and urging witnesses to come forward.

Recently an anonymous automated telephone campaign has criticized Metro police, Sheriff Doug Gillespie and Clark County District Attorney David Roger’s handling of the case.

A coroner’s inquest was originally scheduled for Sept. 3, but that date was postponed.

The officers who fired on Scott, Officer William Mosher, Officer Joshua Stark and Officer Thomas Mendiola, remain on paid administrative leave.
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/24687932/detail.html
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. Thanks for the update.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
102. Latest updates. ACLU weighs in
The American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada says the process is one-sided and favors police officers.

Vegas Police Shooting Inquiries Under Fire

Police say Scott, a medical device salesman, pulled one of two guns he legally carried when officers approached him in response to a 911 call from a Costco employee who said a man with a gun was acting erratically in the store.

Witnesses dispute that claim and point out that Scott was shot five times in the back while on the ground. Meanwhile, a reported "glitch" apparently caused the store's surveillance hard drives to fail. The police refuse to release the 911 call recordings. Transcripts of the radio traffic, from third parties, which seem to indicate wild exaggeration on the part of Costco's employees making the call is being disregarded.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. "A reported 'glitch' apparently caused the store's surveillance hard drives to fail"
Yeah, right. How is anyone supposed to think that isn't blatant tampering, and that there's a whitewash in progress?
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. As someone who has seen first hand...
We have in the past had issues with our DVR systems, and of course you usually don't realize there is an issue with the DVR until you actually need data off of the drives. We purchase top of the line equipment, however a retail environment is generally not a 100% safe environment for the equipment. The systems are generally stored in the store's office where a lot of dust can accumulate from the printing of reports, plan-o-grams, counting cash, etc...

But that said, a good portion of the time that there is a hard drive failure(depending on the severity) the data is recoverable. From my understanding the drives did go to one of the best computer forensic labs in the country with a good reputation for recovering data. I think we will see that the data from the DVR systems will be recoverable. Does not mean that there is not a whitewash in progress. Time will indeed tell.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Odds are.........
Edited on Mon Sep-20-10 07:03 PM by one-eyed fat man

One more thought on the malfunctioning Costco cameras. In the Costco stores in Texas, they have state-of-the-art surveillance video. You can look online and see footage of a robbery in a Costco in a midwest store that shows the entire robbery at the jewelry counter. Costco is a publicly traded company with a stock price at about $56-bucks a share. They have a very finely tuned risk management department. Publicly traded companies do not like to get sued. To think for one moment that the Summerlin store does not have a complete system of camera's that are checked each day and working 99% of the time is foolish. In fact there is likely a corporate report form a manger has to initial to indicate the system is checked a couple times a shift.

To have a one camera failure on any given day, not an issue. But an entire system failure from noon to 1:32 on July 10th. Really? That seems just too damn convenient to be coincidence.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. I don't doubt any of that...
We pay a very pretty penny for ours as well. To the point the we offload our entire day's worth of recordings(about 20 cameras worth) every evening to a remote site over the Internet. But even then we have had bad recordings on a system that looked good. One thing you may consider is that the employees may not have access to the system to tamper with it. All they have to go by is the LEDs on the front.

I'm not saying that it did, but it can happen.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. Possible, but suspicious.
It is not just the recordings of the outside camera that might have supported the police contention the the late Mr. Scott had indeed pulled his gun and pointed it at them, which no other witness saw. They would be tickled to have it......if it existed.

The inside cameras would have shown, "...an agitated, threatening, wild man, high on drugs or something, trashing the store, confronting employees, waving a gun around...."

That would nicely support the Costco manager's call to 911 and the situation reports relayed by the dispatcher to the three squad cars and helicopter sent to the scene.

If the recordings show a guy trying to see how many water bottles fit into a back pack at camping and an unremarkable interaction with a store employee the Costco legal team will be unhappy with their damage control problem.

Particularly if the 911 call center's recording have the Costco manager claiming erratic and threatening behavior to goad the police into an urgent response. By embellishing the details to the dispatcher, the manager causes the police to respond expecting to a confront a deranged madman, spring-loaded for a confrontation.

The police shooting Scott twice outside the store, then five times in the back as he lay on the ground can never be justifiable. It might, however, be stretched to excusable if the officers honestly felt they were responding to an armed crazy man who had already been destructive, confrontational, threatened violence and openly brandishing a weapon in the store.

The police response might have been a lot different if the call to 911 had said something like, "This is manager over at Costco. There's a guy here we think has a gun. That's against our policy. He says he has a permit. Would you send an officer to ask him to leave the store?"

It is possible that the coroner's inquest will conclude a false report by the Costco manager set in motion the chain of events that resulted in Mr. Scott's death. That let's the Metro PD "dodge a bullet." Ironically, something they do not allow the citizens to do.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. You are correct...
Metro PD needs the 911 call and the inside tapes to vindicate themselves, but it would be a convenience to not have the outside tapes, unless they do indeed show Scott drawing the weapon and pointing it at an officer as per their statements.

Costco needs the inside tapes only if they show an erratic Scott trashing a store and having a heated confrontation with the manager.

The problem is, that if Scott is indeed a victim, the family needs all of the above and if any of it has been "accidentally" lost or damaged, then they can only rely on witnesses, which a good lawyer can spin against their favor.

I am not rooting for any particular outcome. No matter how I slice it in my head, it is all bad. If Scott was indeed deranged and drew a weapon on the officers. If the Costco employee inflated the situation into something it was not. If Scott never drew the weapon. All bad... I just hope, good or bad that the family finds some closure.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-10 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
115. LVPD COSTCO Shooting Inquest Begins Tomorrow

http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/25091340/detail.html

We shall see, what they want us to see.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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