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badtoworse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 09:47 AM
Original message
Another question for gun control proponents
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 10:00 AM by badtoworse
We recently had a story posted about an 81 year old woman who was being beaten with her cane, but was able to defend herself because she was armed. Here is a story about an 81 year old man and his 75 year old wife who were robbed and severly beaten in their Staten Island, NY apartment.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/01/26/nyc-couple-attacked-during-18-robbery/

Even after the two SCOTUS rulings, it's difficult to legally own a handgun in NYC. How should they have protected themselves? Under the rules, I can't call out any anti-RKBA posters by name, but we all know who you are. How about some honest answers?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. The two lonely exceptions that prove the rule?
:eyes:

NGU.

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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. We often hear "One gun death is too many, guns must be banned"
Why is it ok for us to be told that, but 2 examples, out of many, proving our point, isn't?

Just curious.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. You beat me to it.
:)
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's almost as if
Had these 3 people been killed, it's ok, as long as a gun wasn't used.

I guess you're more dead with a gun than any other instrument of destruction.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. I notice this also
They scream bloody murder when 6 people are killed by a gun but if 500 people are chopped up in nigeria with machetes, they don't even recognize the event occurred. One gun death is too many for them, but a death caused by the victim lacking a gun is acceptable. The only conclusion is that they hate guns and more precisely they hate you, me and all gun owners simply because of the culture we were born into.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Don't cut yourself with that machete.
Killing people with machetes is hard work - 10 out of 10 mass murderers prefer AK-47s when they're available. They're far more effective, and might have taken out 5,000 Nigerians instead of 500.

But they're not available! Think there's a lesson here? :shrug:
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. wrong, the mass murder in nigeria in which 500 people were killed
was controlled by men with guns who herded the people using guns so that other men could chop them up. Obviously the machete was preferred over the gun because they felt no need to use their guns against unarmed people.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Over-500-killed-in-Nigeria-sectarian-clashes-Official-/articleshow/5657588.cms

""Gunshots were fired just to scare people out of their houses only to be macheted as they fled into the bush," he said. "



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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
75. no need to use their guns against unarmed people.
after they got done using their machetes, that is LITERALLY a true statement.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
78. They didn't want to be effective, they wanted to be terrorizing.
Dismemberment, beheadings, rape. I bet the villagers were hoping to "only" be shot with an AK-47. Besides, you don't have to reload machetes.

Go watch "Tears of the Sun" sometime.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. In all fairness
Anti gunners claim that if heavy restrictions were place on gun owners and "Even if one life were saved", it would be worth it.

In that vein, the two examples cited above are plenty enough.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:44 AM
Original message
In gun-land, mass killings never mean anything, and occasional gun defense means everything
n/t
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
29. Here's a mass killing; "Over 500 killed in Nigeria sectarian clashes"
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Over-500-killed-in-Nigeria-sectarian-clashes-Official-/articleshow/5657588.cms

""Gunshots were fired just to scare people out of their houses only to be macheted as they fled into the bush," he said. "

"Witnesses described how victims were caught in animal traps and fishing nets as they tried to flee their attackers, who hacked them to death in what appeared to have been a well-organised attack. "

Here is an example of a mass killing with 500 deaths because the people who were attacked did not own guns thanks to a gun ban and ammo ban in nigeria. I guess to you those 500 people are expendable and it is an acceptable death count and at least none of the poor little attackers got shot. Now let's see if you are a hypocrite and brush off this mass killing as not important.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
66. Wrong.
Isolated incidents mean nothing either way.

Luckily statistics don't bear out anti-RKBA positions.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. So we can count on you to call out OPs like this as meaningless "isolated incidents," then?
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 02:27 PM by villager
...which should have no bearing on policy?

Glad to hear it.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Dupe
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 10:45 AM by villager
n/t
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
70. Yes you are NT
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. "two lonely exceptions"? You haven't even tried looking, have you?
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. No more than school shootings prove the rule.
:eyes:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Easy.
They should have applied for the "difficult" license and gotten a handgun.

Kinda getting tired of pointing this out, but gun control is not the same as gun prohibition. Rinse, repeat. :eyes:
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Quite the opposite...
If they had they would have been declined on the simple basis that I have never heard of these people, so they are not famous. They own a small shop so they are not wealty.

Those are two of the 3 requirements to obtain the permit required for them to legally possess a firearm where they were attacked.

You are correct however. Gun Control is not the same as a prohibition. Just the wealthy, connected or famous are allowed to carry. Everone else is prohibited.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Link, please.
I mean about only the wealthy or famous being permitted to get guns in NYC.

TIA.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. A few
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 11:39 AM by Glassunion
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/concealed-carry-laws-state-by-state/

"New York State Penal Code 265, which encompasses this sort of regulation, requires that the issuing authority set its own standards as to who will get permits, and then stick to it. In New York City, one standard set was that the individual was likely to carry large sums of money. When Old West gunfighter Bat Masterson became a sportswriter in New York City, he wrote that the law in its wisdom allowed both the rich and poor to have ice, it was just that the rich had it in the summer and the poor had it in winter. New York City’s interpretation of the concealed carry privilege seemed to be similar, the rich and poor alike can get carry permits, so long as they carry large amounts of cash or other valuables."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/27/2010-09-27_celebrities_seeking_pistol_permits_on_the_rise_in_the_city_lifestyles_of_rich_n_.html

"The NYPD charges a nonrefundable $340 to file an application for a gun permit and between $94 and $106 for the collection of fingerprints, even before a background check is begun.
Gun permits aren't easy to get."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20429404,00.html

"Gun permit aren't easy, or cheap, to get. Applicants must show that they often carry large amounts of cash or valuables, or that they are being threatened in some way. And the application alone costs a nonrefundable $340."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/staten_island/shoot_si_ers_sure_love_guns_wk5nm9dlUl0MdZMkk42n3K

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2006/05/nyc_permits_for.php
"the NY Time editor got his permit with the statement that he has special needs since he carries lots of cash. (One of the many paradoxes of the law is that wanting to protect yourself isn't sufficient grounds, but wanted to protect money and other valuables is)."

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0399ny.htm
"("New York City gun laws are so strict that applicants must show a 'need or special danger'," reports Alan Gottlieb of the Second Amendment Foundation in his 1996 book "Politically Correct Guns." When the Wall Street Journal won a court suit in 1981 requiring New York Police to release the names of the chosen few who had been granted pistol permits, the city revealed more than 9 000 non-police city employees had been granted this privilege which is withheld from the average New Yorker. It was subsequently revealed permits had also been issued to such "celebrities" as Laurance Rockefeller, Uri Geller, Bill Cosby, Donald Trump, Howard Stern, Joan Rivers, and anti-gun New York Times publisher Arthur Ochs "Punch" Sulzberger.)"

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Books%20and%20News/Celebrities%20Get%20Guns/



Basically it is this. Unless you can show the police the specific threat(which this couple could not have done months and months in advace) or you happen to carry around large sums of money you cannot have a permit. Who could show that they carry large sums of money? The rich, connected or perhaps celebrities?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. CCW wouldn't apply in this case, would it?
I know it's just an honest mistake, but:

"Most gun owners get a less restrictive "premises" permit, allowing them to keep a firearm at home."

:rofl: Nice try.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Nice try yourself... CCW would have had to apply in this case.
In order for them to have had a firearm to stop the attack they would have needed a CCW. I'll explain.

New York City police said an 81-year-old man and his wife were severely beaten during a robbery in the lobby of their apartment building.

They were not in their home when the attack occured. They were leaving "their store and had walked over to their apartment building next door when they were attacked Sunday night."

In order for them to have have an accessible firearm legally. They would have needed a CCW to make the trip from their store, all the way into their apartment unit. Their apartment unit is their home, the lobby of their aprtment is not their home. Without a CCW it would have been illegal for them to have an accesible firearm from the moment they left their store to the moment they entered their apartment unit.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I stand corrected.
They would have had to get the CCW, and they probably wouldn't have been able to. Better than the alternative, as anyone who lives in a city knows too well.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I spent some time growing up in a city... Please do enlighten me as to what the alternative is.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Right after the Supreme Court's landmark ruling. What a coinky-dink.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Funny, but after the "Landmark" ruling, not one single law in the city changed.
So what does that have to do with the ruling?
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Self Delete
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 01:38 PM by Callisto32
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Self Delete reply to Self Delete.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I just had something not nice to say and decided to not say anything at all.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. I've enjoyed our discussion
:toast:
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. -- SNORT --
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
74. Oh, it wasn't about you.
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-27-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
77. That's partially true
You can get a license, but you have to wait six months after application, and it can be revoked for something extremely small, such as a speeding ticket. However, you can't get a carry permit unless you prove you carry large sums of cash daily, more so than the average mom and pop store owner.

If that's not illegal and a violation of the 2nd Amendment (as well as other possibly), then I don't know what is.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. Here is a story that just happened yesterday
an unarmed women saw someone breaking into her neighbors apartment, she confronted him and was beaten with a crowbar. http://www.wtov9.com/news/26608934/detail.html
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The unarmed "women" is stupid.
Put a gun in her hand and she probably would have done something tragically stupid.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Like shoot the SOB and save taxpayers from feeeding him n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Rock on cowboy. nt
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. lol. any man who beats a woman with a crow bar should be shot dead, but those men who
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 11:47 AM by lawodevolution
would beat a woman with a crow bar will probably disagree with me on this.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
63. How about anybody who would beat anybody with a crow bar?
I wouldn't say they should be shot dead after the fact, there are better punishments for that, but I wouldn't shed a tear over someone getting shot because they were beating someone.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. agreed, if someone is willing to beat someone with a crow bar, then a bullet to their head would be
the least of what they deserve.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Tragically stupid?
You mean the CRIMINAL being the one that is harmed?

Yeah, it would be TRAGIC for people who "make a living" victimizing the less able among us to have to deal with real "occupational hazards."

Where is your sympathy for a person who was beaten for doing nothing but defending a rightful claim from those that would take it by force? I am constantly told that as a pro-gunner I have no sympathy for "victims" many of whom are nothing more than people playing the crime commission risk game and falling on the wrong side of the odds, but an old woman beaten with a crow bar is "stupid" since she didn't just let him take whatever he wanted?

This idea that we should let the strong rule the weak by just "giving them what they want" does nothing but encourage despicable, immoral behavior.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Or shot the next door neighbor, who locked his keys inside his apartment
Yes, tragically stupid. She should have dialed 911.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Well, he was obviously there willing to harm her. This is a FACT not speculation.
I don't know about you, but police response times around here are in the 45 minute range. That is when you call and say "there is someone being beaten, right the hell now."

You can play the "coulda" game all day long. And you know what, if she had shot a neighbor who had just locked himself out, she would have had to deal with the consequences of that. Just like the criminal has to deal with the consequences of attempting to harm a better prepared person.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. If it was so obvious, why did she approach him?
You people have a special knack for taking your own arguments down. Couldn't have done it better myself.

Yeah, police response times suck. The neighbor probably would have gotten robbed. Now, let's assess what the better outcome would have been:

1) Neighbor gets robbed
2) Woman gets the shit beat out of her with a crowbar, potentially gets killed.

In your righteous indignation you've thrown common sense to the wind.
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. if the homeowner was there
they would have been beaten to hell too. Its obvious they were willing to assault someone.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. Okay.
First of all I misunderstood, and believed that she was dealing with a guy entering her OWN abode. But that doesn't change the fact that he was there to do harm.

It may not have been obvious at the time that he was violent. I would suspect that most robbers will flee when confronted with someone intent on stopping a robbery. It is NOW APPARENT that this is a violent individual.


Now, on to what I meant above (I thought this was obvious):
IT IS A FACT THAT HE HARMED SOMEONE. We KNOW criminal harmed someone, we CANNOT KNOW that she would have shot someone who was no threat, as you suggest when you say "she could have shot a neighbor..." Yeah, and she could have been making a ham sandwich. The "could haves" don't matter much, do they?

You are misrepresenting my argument/being intentionally obtuse or don't understand what I said. I can't tell which.

That doesn't change the fact that you can't say what a person WILL do, only what he HAS DONE. The best you can do ahead of time is run the probabilities. Private gun owners (especially CHL holders) have an EXCELLENT track record of safety and NOT SHOOTING THE WRONG PEOPLE. Tragedies happen, but only very rarely. The stats are ALL OVER this forum, take a look around. Suggesting that this woman having a gun would have resulted in a tragedy is not borne out by the data.

I only defeated my own argument if you never understood it in the first place.

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
62. And there you have it: blaming the victim of a violent crime
Stay classy...
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well that was her fault.
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 10:26 AM by Callisto32
Civilized people always bend to the will of the most uncivilized society has to offer. If she had just given him what he wanted, he would have gone away, and never taken the ease of his pillage as an impetus to do it again.

(Do I need the sarcasm thingy?)
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
19. Not sure of the rules here
Apparently I'm responsible for defending any argument ever made here. But I will point a few things out.

"Police said Naimo’s 75-year-old wife suffered a broken nose, broken jaw and fractured skull. She was in stable but critical condition.

Naimo suffered cuts and bruises. He had celebrated his birthday earlier in the day. The couple’s 49-year-old son was also hurt in the attack, after suffering a gash above his left eye, which was also blackened from a blow by the thieves.

According to the Staten Island Advance, Naimo, who is legally blind and says he only saw his attackers’ bodies, described the perps as a “tall” black male, husky build, and a short black female with a stocky build."


These three people were overwhelmed by two attackers. One was a 49 year old male. One was legally blind. The third was a 75 year old woman. I'm not sure which person you want to arm that is going to make a significant difference in this scenario. They were obviously "surprised" or otherwise overwhelmed quickly. I'm dubious that one can make the case that the blind man, or the woman, would have been in a position to make use of a fire arm. The 49 year old might have made some use of one, although apparently he wasn't able to accomplish much otherwise.

The bottom line is that crooks have an advantage in these situations and guns don't particularly change that advantage. Especially for someone desperate enough to commit this kind of crime for $18.

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Actually, a 75-year old female can use a firearm just fine.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. At least one can.
Federally-mandated training which requires renewal after age X (opposed by the NRA) would stand a chance of figuring out which ones could.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. And what do you propose for those who do not pass your test?
What remedy will you provide for them? Are you going to volunteer your time to help keep them safe?

I predict you will not.

And this is a perfect example of the "I've got mine, fuck everyone else" attitude so commonly attributed solely to so-called "tea-baggers".
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. They don't get the fucking gun. Duh.
You want to sell handguns to people with dementia, people with failing vision, people who don't know the first thing about how to safely use one?

I've got mine? I don't need or want one, and we have no discussion.

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
49. Going to answer the second half of the question?
Or continue to ignore those people who don't meet your criteria?

I'm sure they'll get along just fine, subject only to the whims of those who intend them harm, after all.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Boo hoo. And you're going to ignore these people?
You gonna arm kids at school? When everyone has a gun, we'll be safe?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/26/nypd-stats-city-murder-ra_n_513590.html
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. STRAWWWWWWWWWWWW MAAAAAAAAAN
(say it like "bird man")

What about arming the teachers and administrators. They can be trusted with the education and well being of hundreds/thousands of children, but not firearms?

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. How hypocritical...you want to deny kids their A2 rights.
Are kids not citizens too? Hmmmmm?
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. First.No one is a citizen in the United States.
A citizen is someone who owes a duty of allegiance in return for an obligation of protection (at least that is the old definition, now it means subject to the laws of a certain jurisdiction. I have a hard time defining citizen with the word subject, they are kind of opposites). The SCOTUS has ruled many times that there is no obligation of protection.

Second, I do not base the rights a person has upon which side of an imaginary line a person lives. Citizenship has nothing to do with rights. PEOPLE have rights, no matter where they are from or where they are.

Children also have rights, however they are limited the same way all other's rights are properly limited. If a child is not capable of carrying a weapon in a safe manner, than no, they do NOT have the right to carry. This is the same whether you are 4 or 44.

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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. P.S.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. He does have a good habit of ignoring the tough questions or thorough answers to his.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. I think this thread shows this guy has no game....
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. So we now base the questioning of rights on age?
How very progressive.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. But could THIS one
Three people were overwhelmed in a lobby, by two assailants. What would lead you to believe that these three would have changed the outcome with the possession of a fire arm?
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
40. This is a misrepresentation of the position.
Firearms are not a panacea for self-defense. I don't think I have every seen anyone suggest that.

They give people an option to use deadly force, when they otherwise may not be able to do so in the face of a violent attack. It doesn't always work, nobody says it does.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Well, they asked the question
The specifically referenced this incident and requested comment. My question was about whether this case really represents on in which a fire arm would have particularly changed the out come. If we are going to use it as a representation of the issue, shouldn't we answer this basic question?
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I agree if the matter is one of whether or not THIS is a good example.
I tend to argue policy and big ideas, rather than focusing on anecdotes. I forget that sometimes we are just discussing an anecdote.

Frankly, I don't think that any isolated incident proves anything from a policy standpoint in either direction of a debate, so I try to avoid them.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
76. Generally I agree
As an exercise though, I do occassionally explore specific incidents. What I have found in the long run is that people are rarely in a position to usefully employ a fire arm. Much of this impression also comes from people who have actually carried them. I know cops that have spent careers and never fired them, and could count on a pair of hands how many times they actually drew them at all. Opportunities will be extremely rare. And many folks just flat won't be prepared at the moment to employ them.

Gun advocates have a legitimate complaint that in some locations, getting a permit approaches the functionally impossible to achive, despite what laws say. Alternatively, reasonable control advocates also have a point that the need/opportunity in some locations is extremely rare, and often involves many other worthy alternatives. Ultimately, it becomes the contest of the exception, which is hard to win in any argument.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
22. Gun control is not the same as gun prohibition as pointed out above
Also, if we take the "I have the right to defend myself at all times with a gun" in its pure form, why should there be ANY laws restricting guns? It seems to me that our society decided long ago to restrict gun ownership. Now we are just quibbling over where to draw the ARBITRARY line. Why are today's gun laws so perfect? Could they be better? Does one size fit all states and cities?

Would not a purist of the 2nd Amendment argue that this woman should have been able to pull the tarp off of her tripod mounted, belt fed .50 cal machine gun on her porch and quickly made swiss cheese out of the robbers across the way breaking in her neighbors house? Why should this old woman be forced to grab, point, free safety and fire a piddly little six shooter when she could just yank off the tarp covering her mounted .50 cal, rack it and start raking the house next door in the area of the burglars? There would probably be one less beat-up old lady and two less burglars. Of course, the people next door to her next door neighbor might be shot to hell as well, but the important thing is that this poor old woman wouldn't have been beaten. Right?
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
36. Pinata control vs gun control
"Why should this old woman be forced to grab, point, free safety and fire a piddly little six shooter when she could just yank off the tarp covering her mounted .50 cal, rack it and start raking the house next door in the area of the burglars?"


There is potential that someone could load bags of cocaine, or sharp metal objects that could harm a child after hitting a pinata during a birthday party, so should we write pinata control laws to limit size, contents, shape, height from ground etc? NO, because normal laws already regulate the misuse of objects, using an object in such a way that it would cause harm to someone else is already covered by law. Without gun control the misuse of guns is already covered by law. We need no gun control in order for those who abuse guns to be punished. It all just boils down to hate and a culture war against people who were born into a culture that owns guns.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
24. Facinating.
The OP asked for responses from those advocating gun regulation and "the usual suspects" immediately chime in hijacking the thread and monopolizing it.

Adding nothing I might ad.
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DWC Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
38. "The Gun Is Civilization"
"The Gun Is Civilization"

Interesting take and one you don't hear much. . . . .. .

As the Supreme Court hears arguments for and against the
Chicago, IL Gun Ban, I offer you another stellar example of a
letter (written by a Marine) that places the proper
perspective on what a gun means to a civilized society.

Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention
to the last paragraph of the letter.... 

"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC
(Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another:
reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you
have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force
me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human
interaction falls into one of those two categories, without
exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively
interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid
method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes
force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as
it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have
to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to
negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound
woman
on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old
retiree on
equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy
on equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball
bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength,
size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source
of bad force equations. These are the people who think that
we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society,
because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do
his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's
potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by
legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's
potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic
rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the
exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed
one, can only make a successful living in a society where the
state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations
lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This
argument is fallacious in several ways.. Without guns
involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior
party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't
constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take
beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The
fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in
favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If
both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an
octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It
simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't
both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a
fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my
side means that I cannot be forced only persuaded. I don't
carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be
unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would
interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who
would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...
and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are
equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.

Thank You

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I'm not afraid, just "not unafraid".
:rofl:

Soldier, what happens when your version of what's right conflicts with someone else's? We have a real problem which your simplistic, battlefield view of society does nothing to resolve.

The word "law" doesn't appear once in this unlinked letter (probably mythical, like most of this crap), and law is what is the foundation of democracy - not force.

What a pantload.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Law is nothing but monopoly on violence.
Sorry. It is true. Every law is backed up by threat of force. You will be either caged, robbed from, or killed for violating them. How is that any less violent.

No, the point is that the firearm equalizes the ability to do violence, taking the monopoly of force away from the rich and well-connected. Now that everybody has the ability to use force, the initiation of it seems that much less of a good way to get what you want. But you knew that, didn't you.

This is the same thing you did with my point. You either don't understand it, or or pretending not to.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Laws only protect the rich and well-connected, do they?
You are completely out to lunch.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Again with the mischarcterization.
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 12:57 PM by Callisto32
I did not say that.

I said that laws are a monopoly on force and showed how they are forceful to counter your suggestion that law is somehow not violence.

I then explained someone else's argument which you attributed to me, though I never suggested that was my point.

As far as laws only protecting the rich/well connected; they certainly have a better chance. Law, at least as practiced in the U.S. today, is EXTREMELY expensive. How many legitimate claims under the law do you think aren't brought because the person doesn't have resources with which to fund their case?

Do you deny that there WAS A TIME (think feudal systems) where laws provided more protection to the rich and well connected? Remember, the Magna Carta did not apply to everyone. The point is that the firearm, by equalizing the potential for violence, is a catalyzing factor in making the protection of the laws more universal.

This stuff is simple.

Edit: Fixed a continuity error.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. If you are going to post this, at least give the correct author.
Edited on Wed Jan-26-11 12:40 PM by Callisto32
The Maj. so and so crap is something that got attached because the real author didn't have the "conservative cred" someone wanted to attribute to the author, who is in fact mostly libertarian in beliefs.

It was written by Marko Kloos. His website is here, complete with posts about just this writing (and the writing itself): http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/


Edit: I didn't mean to suggest you mis-attributed on purpose, it is a common mistake with this particular essay.
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DWC Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-26-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
71. Correction
I have confirmed that my post was attributed to the wrong author. I sincerely appologize for the error. This is possibly the best 2nd amendment I have ever read and Mr. Marko Kloos, its legitimate author, has more than earned recognition for his work

Again, my apologies for my error.

DWC
www.thepistolpad.com

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