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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:21 AM
Original message
Switzerland Holds Referendum on Guns
While the assassination attempt on Gabrielle Giffords in Arizona revived a predictable and unchanging round of gun control debate in the U.S., a referendum in Switzerland — Europe’s best-armed nation — is showing a shift of opinion away from private gun ownership.

Every third household in Switzerland has a firearm, normally government-issued, because every male citizen under about 50 is also a reserve soldier. Instead of a standing professional army, the government maintains a well-armed militia to be called up in case of war.

The tradition goes back to at least 1291, when several regions of what’s now Switzerland rose up against the Austrian empire, starting a war of liberation with citizen-soldiers like William Tell (who may be mythical) wielding private crossbows and hunting bows to defeat a more professional Habsburg army. Legends of Swiss independence have an almost American ring of under-doggedness.

But a referendum on Feb. 13 will decide whether the Swiss should go on keeping their guns at home or store them in public arsenals. Lately, yes votes for the arsenal bill have led public opinion — 45 percent support it versus 34 percent who oppose, plus a wide undecided margin, according to a poll from early January.


http://www.miller-mccune.com/politics/the-swiss-and-their-guns-27329/

What an incredible idea! No standing army, just a well-armed militia comprising of every able bodied adult male. Imagine how much money this nation could save if we got rid of the standing army and stopped being the world's policeman!
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:26 AM
Original message
Of course, there's no reason why women couldn't be part of the militia as well. (n/t)
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. Under the Swiss tradition
The eligibility to vote was tied to militia service. If you were unwilling to bear arms for the defense of the country you did not deserve a say in how things were run. This is one of the reasons Appenzell Innerrhoden was the last Swiss canton to grant women the vote....in 1991.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. no doubt about it - the Swiss are an intelligent population
a clear indication - "a shift of opinion away from private gun ownership." Storing guns in arsenals vs homes - significant support for this.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. this was the intent of the founders
"Every third household in Switzerland has a firearm, normally government-issued, because every male citizen under about 50 is also a reserve soldier. Instead of a standing professional army, the government maintains a well-armed militia to be called up in case of war."

This was the REAL purpose of the 2nd amendment...as the dissent in Heller points out.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Would you be opposed to automatic rifles in every home then?
After all, the militia is EVERY able-bodied adult.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. if
Edited on Wed Feb-02-11 07:15 AM by HankyDubs
we were to do away with the entire military-industrial complex and replace it with a "well-regulated militia" as the founders intended, my position on all of these issues would be very different.

But since you can't deliver that, the point is moot.

EDIT: I'm not a misguided bloodthirsty psychopathic nationalist, I will never...EVER take another person's life in the defense of this corporate-dominated state.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm with you there, buddy.
Wouldn't it be something if we freed up all that military spending money and put it into social programs?

We could practically cure poverty in America overnight. And wouldn't be so hated in the world either.

It's doubtful 9/11 would have happened if the military hadn't been meddling in the Middle East.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. to be perfectly honest
I'd still be sceptical about keeping automatic weapons in every home (or every third home), I would prefer an arsenal. I'd be more than willing to compromise that position if we could dismantle the MIC, though. That would be such an earth-shattering change in our society that I would have to re-evaluate all kinds of things.

But unfortunately we are talking about purest fantasy here. There are just way too many people and special interests on both sides of the gun debate who are enamored with the idea that we can bully other nations with our high-tech murder machine.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. It would be difficult to call up the Militia...
if you simply seize control of the arsenals first.

Good luck with that.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. And instead of sending all that money overseas
for every social project known to man, trying to correct every wrong done and save every cause that pops up we could keep it here in the states to use for our own people.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. im not opposed
in principle, to sending money to help people in other countries. The problem is that this money frequently goes to oppressive forces and never reaches its intended targets.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. That's OK, I did it FOR you...
My office in Viet Nam looked like this for two tours.



One of the reasons for 12 years in Germany during the 70's and 80's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSPynG9vcdk

Retired in 1988 only to be recalled to active duty in 1991. Like to guess why?

http://www.worldwide-military.com/Army%20Material/EU,US%20Tanks%20plaatjes/groot/Abrams%20M-1A1%20Kuwaiti.jpg

I didn't do it because I was a "misguided bloodthirsty psychopathic nationalist." As a career soldier, I did it for the fun, travel and adventure.






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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
16.  Man!! Talk about upgraded office equipment!!
My "office"I carried on my back. Sometimes we had choppers. Most of the time we walked. USMC 1970-78 RVN 1971 & 73

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. As they say,
"Welcome home, brother."

Those who know, understand; those who don't, don't matter.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Thanks to both of you....
for helping to show people in the next generation, like me, the way.

Glad you made it home.

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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
37.  My middle son is a Grunt. A field Medic. Just got reposted to Fort Drum. n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Heh, hope he likes winter.
About 80 miles east on Rt. 3 to the skiing at Lake Placid.

10th Mt. Div.?
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
40.  I don't know yet. He thought he was going to a "cannon cocker" unit.
But that may have changed. He has spent the last 18 months at Fort Lewis, pretty cold and nasty there also.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. And also good skiing nearby...
Yeah, you can see where my mind is this week.

Last year, i'd skied more here in Tucson than my brother had in Salt Lake. This year, not so much. But they just got a touch of snow in the north-east...

Anyway, good luck to him, hope it works out well.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Ultima Ratio Regum
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."

* Frederick II of Prussia
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Semper fidelis n/t
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Thank you ...
Thank you, for your service.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. You seem to be slandering the entire military.
Perhaps you could clarify that a bit?
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm slandering no one.
My experience is that most veterans who actually saw real action agree with me on this. Like Smedley Butler for instance.

I see no value whatsoever in militarism (a primary component of fascism) or the compulsory adoration of the military in our country. The military of this and every other country repulses me.

Running around shooting brown people is not the kind of adventurous behavior I would advocate...nor does it protect my freedom.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I you were a part of an "organized Militia" would you report to duty
If your unit was called to active?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'd never
be a part of an organized militia, as thought I said before. I'm not going to shoot anyone, ever, in defense of this corporate state.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. The corporate state called.
Please turn your comuter in at the nearest Ministry of Jerk.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
36.  As a US citizen you are in the Militia. In the Swiss system military service is compulsory.
If we had a Swiss system you WOULD be in a Organized Militia.

Would you report for duty, if your unit is activated?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. You never met Smedley Butler, you read his book and cluck at people in arrogance
and from the soldiers I've known they hated combat, the being away from home, crappy conditions and bureaucratic BS but they were a proud fraternity.

There is no compulsory adoration. Maybe, just maybe, it is common decency born of common sense.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. how is it decent
to mindlessly praise the slaughter of other people in their own countries by our military in support of our corporate state?

It's a joke to imply that supporting petty tyrants protects my freedom.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. But you do support petty tyrants
They count on people like you.

What kept the Soviet Union on their side of the Iron Curtain they built? Your sterling personality?

I'm not glorifying war. It's horrible and terrifying and I deal with it almost every night even though I've never been in the service. I think books are far cheaper and far more effective than bombs but for every Smedley Butler there are dozens of soldiers who, despite their hardships, know who they are as people and they are good people who are loyal to each other and are genuinely proud of their service.

Your cheap caricatures of good people is a disgrace. Progressives are supposed to be above rank bigotry.

BTW - the repeal of DADT. Is it equal rights or more chum for the grist mill?
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
28.  WW2? Korea? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. P.S. In my 20+ year USAF career, I've been on far more humanitarian missions...
than any that required violence.

When was the last time you rescued refugees, feed the hungry, set up shelters for the displaced, provided medical supplies, personnel and evacuations?

Did you offer to put yourself between warring factions of Bosnians, Croats, Serbs and Albanians, to stop ethnic cleansing?

Picked up any bodies from aircraft crash sites recently?

Shuttled/guarded diplomats to try to avert a war or rebellion?


Have you, in short, done anything but be a parasite on the back of society?
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Thank you, PP...
For your service.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Just doing a job, fixing aircraft, drinking beer, chasing women...
and once in a while, when I couldn't avoid it, helping out around the edges.

If you know anyone who did something substantial, military OR civilian, please thank them, for both of us.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
41.  Yea isn't it a bitchkitty when the drivers bend the plane. n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. It makes me cranky... and thirsty. n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
48. Also noted is your projected racism.
And yeah, it's fucking vile.

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armueller2001 Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. You would never take another persons life
In defense of your country? So if China or some other country invaded the united states, you'd just chillax and let them do what they want?

Wow.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. How's the mileage on that thing?


The founding fathers are dead. Work with what you've got in the time in which you live.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Does that mean the dissent in Roe v Wade or Lawrence v Texas
take prominence?

just askin'
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. Um, no that is not the REAL purpose of the 2nd amendment...
The Amendment recognizes the right of the people to keep and bear arms. The so-called militia clause is not the governing portion of the Amendment, but only a statement of the federal government's interest -- that a militia be organized, a power granted in the Articles. The BOR is essentially a document which restricts the government; the articles a document which enumerates powers of the government. Thus, the "people" have rights to keep and bear arms. This is also necessary for the federal government to fulfill its obligation to organize a militia. The right it not limited to militia duty.

You will find that the laws governing militia duty require members to report to duty, and to provide THEIR OWN arms suitable for military service. You should be interested in knowing that Laurence Tribe, the poo-bah of the militia clause for some 30 years of academic writing, changed his mind and agreed with the bulk of constitutional scholars, historians and political scientists who have studied the Second, that the Second recognizes a individual right to keep and bear arms.

Note: Switzerland is not the U.S.A.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
53. As soon as the Government is willing to supply me with an automatic rifle, we are in agreement.
But then, doesn't that make invalid your entire argument that individuals should not have guns?
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. But "we" will only pass them out to "party members". We don't want "them" having guns now do we?
Edited on Tue Feb-08-11 08:13 PM by Glassunion
Then we would not be individuals.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. In addition to not being the world's policeman, you'd have to be the world's banker
Or, at least, the banker to every corrupt kleptocrat and mass-murdering totalitarian dictator, and no asking any awkward questions how they came by those containerloads of gold fillings. Sure, you don't have to worry about international conflict when every global thug knows you're sitting on his nest egg.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'll just point out that the referendum is about the keeping of military arms at home,
NOT the private ownership of civilian firearms (including "assault weapons"). As in the United States, Swiss citizens can own revolvers and pistols, rifles, and shotguns, and the spectrum of *non*-military guns that can be legally possessed there as a private citizen is comparable to that here.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Do they equate military firearm with EBR ?
Or does that simply mean " Government Property " ?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. They can't hate themselves that much...
the chocolate wouldn't be that good...
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. The military firearm is a government-owned select-fire assault rifle. A real one.
Swiss citizens can own semiauto rifles just like we can, for personal use, but Swiss males of a certain age are required to keep their military infantry rifle and gear at home as well. I believe government-owned ammunition is issued for training and practice with the infantry rifle, and that ammunition is tracked to ensure you're using it for training in your government issued weapon (i.e., you can't use the government issued ammo in your personally owned civvie AR-15 for next weekend's IPSC match).
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. " A real one " is exactly the point
WTF is a "real military weapon" other than one that belongs to the military ? So they no longer have to store their duty weapon ,that isnt a big deal .


I am curious to see if it will cause a spike in gun sales and then (of course) the unavoidable pissing and moaning over Shrike deposits .
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Until recently
They got to keep their issue weapon at the end of their militia obligation. As a result of an EU requirement they still have the option to keep it, but unlike in the past now, on retirement, the select fire is disabled and they only get to keep it as a semi-auto.

When I was stationed in Europe in the 80's you could still walk into a Swiss gun shop and buy machineguns cash and carry.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-11 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Are you sure that is from the bilateral EU treaties?
They participate in the economic zone but are not an EU member. They also maintain their own currency
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-11 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. The Schengen Agreement, which they joined in December 2008.
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