NRA, doctors spar over gun issue (FL-republics/NRA to fine doctors who *ask* patients about guns)

http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2011-02-22/nra-doctors-spar-over-gun-issue

Emergency room doctors, psychiatrists and pediatricians should not be able to ask a patient whether he or she owns a gun, a panel of Florida lawmakers said Tuesday, giving the OK to a proposal that pits two of the state's most politically powerful lobbying interests -- the National Rifle Association and the Florida Medical Association -- against each other.

The Senate Criminal Justice Association approved on a 4-1 vote a bill to bar doctors from asking patients whether they own guns, unless the doctor believes a patient may immediately harm him or herself with a gun. If doctors were to question a patient about gun ownership, they would face substantial fines under the bill.

"It gives patients the right to refuse to answer questions that are inappropriate," said Florida NRA lobbyist and former National NRA President Marion Hammer.

The bill, which originally would have fined doctors $5 million for asking patients about gun ownership, was stripped of its original language and amended to create a tiered fine system for violators. An offending doctor would be charged $10,000 for the first offense, at least $25,000 for the second offense, and a minimum of $100,000 for the third offense.

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how authoritarian

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it's pretty good.

a child, now would we? How horrible to have them remind a parent of the need to lock up their gun safely from the child. Can you imagine? How readily offended are gun owners that they need the NRA to protect their "wittle hurt feelings?" :eyes:

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I'll say the same thing I say when "right to lifers" bitch about abortion procedures or stem cell research: leave the business of medicine to medical practitioners.

There have been some claims of what some have termed "inappropriate use". I have not verified that personally.

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Not everything docs do save lives. Some have absurd agendas like anti rights fanaticism. That I have seen personally.

yup yup

According to statistics provided by the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, there is an interesting correlation between accidental deaths caused by guns and by doctors.

Doctors: There are 700,000 physicians in the U.S.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians total 120,000 per year.
Accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171429

Guns (accidental): There are 80 million gun owners in the U.S.
There are 1,500 accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups.
The percentage of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000019

Guns (all): There are 80 million gun owners in the U.S.
There are ~31,000 total gun deaths per year, all age groups.
The percentage of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000386.

You are more than 444 times more likely to die by the hands of a physician than a someone holding a gun. Period.

Then fine them when they do their jobs

fucking idiots

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ownership.

Why should we care what other republics want? This is the United States and we aren't bound by laws of other republics.

If someone comes in with a small hole in his foot, burn marks and a lot of impact damage, "Do you have a gun?" or "Did you shoot yourself?" is the obvious question. If the answer is "no" and further questions reveal no one else around him has one either, then it becomes a very different puzzle.

If someone presents with facial lacerations and contusions, broken ribs and a bruise on the left shoulder, the doc needs to ask "were you driving an old car when this happened?"

The question is also relevant for psychiatric diagnosis. If the patient comes in talking about suicidal ideation, then the possible means may have to be known to prevent an attempt.

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For the record, I'm not disputing that very few people are either shot to death or shoot themselves in this country when compared to the size of the population. It only seems like it because heart attacks and cancer deaths don't make the news.

When people are killed by their doctors it is usually because there is already something very wrong with the patient in the first place. Medical and surgical intervention is risky and imperfect and the worse the patient is the greater the risks that are justified. Unfortunately, just being in a hospital exposes a person to increased risks of infection. But, the patient would not be there in the first place if there wasn't something wrong with her that was bad enough to be admitted. A patient can be killed in a vehicle accident in the back of an ambulance. That is a justified risk, however, when the alternative is to let him die of a heart attack on his kitchen floor.

of course it came from a gun. Bullet holes are uniquely distinct... not much puzzle involved. If a doctor needs to ask how a bullet hole manifested itself perhaps the patient should seek a real doctor with a brain.

From the standpoint of a physician, the owner of the gun is irrelevent. It doesn't matter if your pittbull shot you with your cat's gun or your neighbor shot you with his wife's gun or you shot yourself licking the fouling off the front of the muzzle... the treatment is the same.

The physician's job is repair the patient medically and perhaps contact authorities to investigate the why & who involved in the shooting.

...but I'm going to rely on the person with the M.D. to decide what is relevant and what isn't.

However *arbitrary* questions about gun ownership is not relevent in the slightest. Especially if a political motive drives a physician to give preferrential treatment or deny treatment based on answers to arbitrary questions. That is what this bill is aimed at preventing and I'm fine with that.

If a doctor needs to know what kind of bullet caused a wound (for treatment) or how close the shot was taken from... that's perfectly acceptable and medically related.

est themselves of all firearms.

Firearms storage is nobody's damn business, but the family involved.

...then possibly unsecured firearms would be a health risk. And the doctor isn't seizing the parents' guns, only making a recommendation. The parents are free to decline.

Maybe that doc overstepped the bounds of propriety. Maybe not. If so, taking away the 1st Amendment rights of all docs is hardly the answer.

I think it will be destroyed in the courts as well.

any pornographic material or sex aids. And must absolutely know if the sex aids are not being used in any not intended.

BTW, just because a doc asks you something, doesn't mean you are required to answer. You can always ask the doc how the question is relevant.

posted if asking about pornography or sex aids.

The law stops the "gun" question from being a routine question as it is currently being asked. The "gun" issue can be addressed if their is some reason for it.

...a probable cause hearing. A doc has to be free to ask about anything she thinks might be relevant. Frankly, I'm willing to risk offending the parents or even the patient to give the doctor all the information he might need. If he were asking about vegetable peelers, no one would care. It's just that firearms have become such a politically-charged issue that we are even talking about this.

A little background may also help on this. The AAP started all this by "encouraging" all pediatricians to ask children if there is a gun in the home as a STANDARD question. This law is a reaction to an organization that has a known agenda in the "gun" issue. So you are right in that firearms have become a politically charged issue. But it was an anti - gun driven AAP using pediatricians as pawns that started this particular fight.

They were asking all kids this question.

On the other side, I do agree, that this law is bad, but it is a reaction to bad behavior.
Personally, I would have just taught my child not to answer that question. (and I safely store my weapons.)

Thanks.

A doctor's REAL job is pizza delivery.

helping people. "Do no harm" means different things to different people.

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Republic/NRA dictators suck

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A great big 3x3 foot sign entailing your rights to carry a weapon and defend yourself and how he has shit to do with any of that and it is none of his or anyone else's business , and ..........that kilt wearing ,scotch swilling ,cad , got his hands on a fucking Shrike .

R2D2 will see you now.

God Bless Texas.

who also own firearms.

I use the discussion as a tactic to avoid that embarrassing prostate exam.

I've gone out shooting and talk hunting with a number of my doctors.

I win... yup!

I win

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And again, it is not authoritarian at all.

But here then would be my question to you. What business is it of my health care providor if I own a firearm? What is their justification for asking me, if I own a firearm?

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dipshits

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if I own a gun. I don't want to be treated differently based on gun ownership status. I don't want a doctor kicking me out of an office for not answering his gun question and I don't want cops taking their time coming to my house because i own a gun.

to do their job

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What business is it of my health care providor if I own a firearm?
What is their justification for asking me, if I own a firearm?

to make sure that any weapons, guns, knives, chemicals or other things that should be kept out of the hands of children are secured.

gross negligence than a gun owner should NOT lecture gun owners on gun safety.

Gun owners should lecture doctors on patient safety.

There are <500,000 doctors in the US vs. 80 million or so gun owners.

And the group that is at best 1/160th the size of the other manages to kill at least 10X as many people.

Yet parts of that group still have the crust to lecture members of the other group about safety...

harrassing parents, this would never have happened.

I would say the law is an over-reaction, but it was provoked.

BINGO

about gun safety, I'm certainly willing to listen.

But it is none of their business whether I actually own a gun or not.

Took the words right out of my mouth. When my 15yo son was in the hospital last year one of the questions they asked in admitting was were there any firearms in the house. My response was "how does that have anything to do with the care he will be getting in this hospital". No response, just moved on to the next question. Probably called security and had me tailed the minute I stepped into the hospital for the entire week he was there.

How do they handle that. Does Wayne LaPierre and Tom Selleck go from clinic to clinic with a ticket book? Or do they do like the cops do with traffic cameras now, and just send a letter with a picture of them asking someone about their guns with a $100 ticket attached?

I was not aware that either private 501C-3 organizations can fine citizens, or that your grammar comprehension and foaming at the mouth gun control genes are really out of control.

It only says a doctor can ask you if the person owns a gun if they think they can harm him or herself. I think its to narrowly defined. A doctor should not be able to just out of the blue ask about gun ownership, but if they believe the person might harm some or as the one doctor mentioned may be in danger, then I think it is appropriate.