Texas college students at center of gun legislation debate

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-texas-guns-20110306,0,5339566.story

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Others here cringe at the prospect of guns in an environment saturated with roommate rivalries, melodramatic romances, alcohol, depression, parties, academic pressure and the emotional exigencies of finding oneself at college.

"It's possible to envision scenarios in which a student carrying a gun could help save lives. It's a lot easier to envision multiple scenarios in which it would not be good for a student to have a gun," said Phillip Barrish, an associate professor in the English Department.

In September, Barrish found himself a few feet from the gunman inside the library. He said the prospect of another student or faculty member pulling a gun in self-defense could have made the situation even worse, potentially turning the gunman's thoughts from suicide to murder.

More philosophically, Barrish fears that guns could change the educational environment, eroding the trust needed for a vigorous exchange of ideas. He also worries about students being armed during disciplinary hearings or professors' office hours.

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The GOP assault on education continues

yup

Carriers will still have to meet criteria necessary to carry a concealed weapon (obtain a legal permits and adhere to laws regarding the carrying of firearms)... not just any student or faculty would be allowed or qualified to carry a gun. Universities property is really no different than the rest of public property.

The proliferation of guns on campus will not end well

guns off campus

yup

"Will not end well." How will it end badly? In what time frame? Is your prediction falsifiable, that is, is there an amount of time with no significant uptick in undesirable incidents involving firearms on campus, and in which American higher education has failed to collapse, after which you would acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, your prediction has not come to pass, and was thus wrong?

Or are you just setting this up so that you can count any and every bad thing that happens on a college campus as vindication of your assertion, and hand-wave away any evidence that might work against your claim? If a CCWing student caps a gunman who might have been in the process of committing a mass shooting, will you have the honesty to acknowledge that another school shooting might at least partially have been averted, or are you just going to spin it as some trigger-happy idiot shooting an innocent person?

Why am I even asking? I already know what the answer is.

n/t

Public property or campus property... can't imagine it makes much difference. :shrug:

Since that is part of the topic under discussion, you're begging the question (http://fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html).

It's not an unreasonable question to ask in any discussion "what evidence would it take for you to concede that you're wrong?" You don't have to answer it right away, but there does have to be an answer. See, there's a convention in science, at least, that a prediction has to be falsifiable; that is, it has to be possible to prove it incorrect. If a prediction can't be proven incorrect even in theory, it means it's too vague to be of use.

This will not end well

nope

might as well be rocks

I carry for my defense. If you don't wish to get shot don't try to mugg me, simple enough

Yup

Instead of trying to single-handedly run both sides of the discussion, and constantly defeating the straw man you set up for your opponent, maybe you could try actually trying to pay attention to and understand your interlocutors' opinion. You know, use a discussion board to have a discussion.

Tell me, do you behave like this in real life? Because if you do, I cannot imagine how you don't get punched in the face with alarming frequency.

They are most certainly different.

The proliferation of guns on campus will change nothing. Get ready to eat crow because, depite all your handwringing, this Texas bill is pretty much a done deal. Passed the senate, more than half of the house are cosponsors, and Rick Perry will definately sign it.

To actually prevent someone from bringing in a weapon. Colleges do not.

It's one thing to deprive people of the means of self-defense when you're actually providing some measure of security, as in a court house or the "sterile" zone of an airport. When your idea of "providing security" is to put up some circle-slash "No guns" signs, you're not taking responsibility for the people you're disarming.

yup

Barricading the door was a good idea but would have worked better if an armed student or instructor would have taken cover behind a desk with his firearm pointed at the door. When Cho would have forced his way in, the armed individual would have been able to make certain that Cho was a shooter, not law enforcement. He then could have taken careful aim and either wounded or killed Cho.

Remember that not all college students are drunken irresponsible idiots who are under the age of 21. Many are responsible adults who live off campus. Some are law enforcement personnel or ex military attending college. People who have a concealed carry permit have undergone a criminal background check and usually have training in firearm safety and the legality of using a firearm for self defense. Statistics have shown such people rarely misuse that privilege and are very responsible.

Licensed firearm owners often carry their weapons in public and there is little reason to suspect that they would suddenly become foolish and irresponsible just because they happen to be on a college campus or in a classroom.

Unfortunately in our society there exists an extremely small number of people who suffer from severe mental illness who lash out at society and run amok. Often such people look for a gun free zone. Eliminating such areas may cause them to reconsider their actions. Many areas that forbid firearms offer armed security to protect citizens. Providing armed security in all college buildings and installing scanners to prevent unauthorized people from bringing weapons is probably cost prohibitive. However, measures need to be taken to prevent massacres.

Allowing licensed individuals to carry concealed on campus should act as a deterrent. I personally would have no problem with requiring such individuals to pass further requirements before being allowed to carry in a college environment or with limiting the carry to school employees. Still some states do allow concealed carry on campus and the result have been favorable with no major problems.

Often those who oppose firearms feel that anyone who carries a weapon must be suffering from extreme paranoia or some form of mental illness. If this were true than we would see far more incidents where licensed individuals would shoot others unnecessarily. I think much of the stereotyping of gun owners and how they behave comes from the constant violence we see portrayed in the movies and on TV. You have to realize that such entertainment has little to do with reality. Reality is often boring.

It would have ended in more mayhem.

No one would know who was a good guy or a bad guy.

Shoot first, ask questions later.

yup

dispel this tripe.

not dozens. You have a great imagination and should write plots for movies or TV. There are 18.5 million people in Florida and less than 800,000 have concealed weapons permits. Not all people with carry permits carry regularly.

Obviously if you carry a firearm and a massacre breaks out you have to be careful that you are not mistaken for the shooter and that you are damn sure that if you do shoot, you don't shoot an innocent gun owner.

You will note that I mentioned the individual with the concealed weapon taking cover behind a desk in the classroom and waiting for the shooter to enter. I also mentioned that he should make sure that the person who breaks the door down is the shooter before he fires his weapon.

Nowhere did I suggest shooting first and asking questions later.

Leaving the classroom to hunt the shooter down becomes very risky and may be a foolish tactic as it places the person with the carry permit at a big disadvantage. Much depends on the situation and the training of the person with the permit. Having a concealed carry permit does not make you a police officer or a swat team. Realistically your first object is to defend yourself and possibly the people with you in the classroom.

Please cite to evidence that it has happened. Put up... or shut up.

Those with Georgia Weapons Licenses are allowed to bring them on campus and store them in their vehicles. No significant issues have occurred.

You're losing this debate because you have nothing but fear mongering as a strategy.

at least not on the anti-gun, pro-hysteria side.

It's a religion. No more, no less. And like most all religions it has it's devil-analogue.

I wonder what was responsible for all the evil in the world prior to gunpowder?

This quote from that article about sums it up:

John Woods doesn't buy the statistical argument. Woods was an undergraduate at Virginia Tech during the 2007 shootings, and lost a close friend in the rampage. He's now a leader of Students for Gun-Free Schools in Texas.


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It's emotion based and no amount of logic or facts will change their minds (like the fact that the VT shooter was not a CHL carrier and was already breaking the law, and managed to kill people in a gun-free zone)

iow he doesn't care about what ACTUALLY happens in the real world when you can carry on campus. Nope, he's more "concerned" with baseless hypotheticals.

they'd be laughed out of the room.

"I don't buy the scientific argument, I feel evolution is just wrong".

"I don't buy the statistical argument, I feel that abstinence only is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy"

"I don't buy the mathematical argument, how can any number multiplied by zero only be zero?"

As a matter of policy, if you think CCW's should be banned on campus. Fine. But don't pretend there is any rational basis related to safety about your policy preference, since there is evidence to the contrary.

and get anything reasonable in return.

They make a statement, have it destroyed by facts, reset the goal posts, have that new one destroyed by facts and so on and so on until they get to the point where they basically just admit that they don't care about any facts they just feel guns are evil.

I wish they'd start with that like this kid did; saves time.

Gun ownership is supported by a majority of all Americans.

Allowing CHL owners to carry on campus does not prevent an education.

You need to get over this irrational paranoia.

Yup.

controlled court rooms and airport areas, there is no such thing as a "gun-free" or "weapon-free" zone or area - period.

All a Bad Guy or Crazy has to do is decide to go in and reek death and destruction until someone stops him or he just decides to quit. It is simply a matter of Free Will. No signs or laws or rules ever has or ever will change that fact.

Determining to not be a victim is also a matter of Free Will. No signs or laws or rules ever has or ever will change that fact either.

Here in Texas, the majority of responsible, adult citizens exercise our Free Will. We chose not to be victims and not live in fear.

I am proud of Texas for recognizing and respecting responsible adults' rights to self defense virtually everywhere.

Semper Fi,

CHL suddenly go from being the mos law abiding subgroup in the USA to being total animals because they are on campus.

Still no data, facts or real evidence that CCW on campus presents a problem in the states where it is already allowed.

Lots of states have legal carry on campus. Is there any evidence that your "worries" have come true there?

No, of course not. But people such as him do not reside in the reality based community. When the empirical evidence goes against you, pretend it doesn't exist and engage in "envisioning" and "worrying".

Maybe your right, I had know idea the GOP was so involved!:rofl: