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David West Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:46 PM
Original message
Man calls police over live .22 round found in street
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/1013959.bullet_found_in_doorway/

If I didn't know any better I would honestly think that this article came from The Onion. Unfortunately, I know better. Theres so many things wrong with this article I don't even know where to begin...

"Mr Khan said that if it had been struck hard enough or exposed to heat it could have gone off."

Yeah, sure it could have... So could an aerosol can, which possesses far more explosive potential than a .22 round. All that woudl happen if it went off without a chamber to hold in the pressure is a hole would blow open in the side of it's casing and it would roll a couple feet.

"To get hold of one of these is not easy. You have to go through a scrutinised search, you need a licence and you have to belong to a club."

Yeah, SURE you do. And yet, I sincerely doubt that this was dropped by a licensed gun owner.

"If it goes bang, it is still lethal."
No... it's not.

I know it's a different world over there, but this just makes me laugh. And feel sorry for these people. I find loose ammo rolling around my Jeep or in the bottoms of pockets all the time, it's not a big deal. Don't you just love America where we have holidays dedicated to blowing things up in our front yards? I do.
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dude...I know..when I was a kid I used to find arrowheads..
along the river bank...But, you're correct....I never found the shafts or spears or bows.


:)
Tikki
best be safe, though...
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Date on the story was 2006
Why bother with it?
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David West Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. A friend of mine shared it with me earlier today and I just thought it was hilarious.
Plus, I'm kind of curious what kind of reaction it will get from the anti-gun types.
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May Hamm Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. You are right

Even though this happened several years ago I am glad you posted it. It never hurts to be reminded of what makes people insane.

When my boys were little we found live bullets out camping all the time. They used to carry them in their pockets to school. Then one day, all of a sudden, I realized that possessing a bullet was a criminal offense which could mean foster homes or jail for my kids. I didn't understand then and I do not understand now.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. "If it goes bang, it is still lethal. No... it's not." Duh! Unless...
it hits you in the head or in your heart.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If a round goes off and is NOT inside a gun not much will happen.
A cartridge needs a gun around it to be deadly.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. No comment on you answer. nt.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
24.  If it goes off the powder will burn, increasing pressure
untill the bullet is pushed out of the case. This relieves the pressure and allowes the remaining powder to burn off. The bullet might go 6" or so. The same as throwing a loaded cartridge in a fire.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Actually in a fire since the bullet weighs more than the casing
there is more chance of being injured by flying brass than by lead.

And since the heat build up is gradual the reaction would not be instantaneous like when a primer is struck by a hammer and even the chances of the casing flying out of the are pretty slim.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. really?
see my post bellow.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. If a .22LR "goes off" outside the chamber of a gun, it would be unlikely to break the skin,
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 07:02 PM by benEzra
unless it went off in your hand or something and you were cut by a case fragment. A .22LR contains little powder, and without an enclosing chamber to allow pressure to build, the gas just vents to the atmosphere; it would be like a small firecracker going off. The case would carry more velocity and energy than the bullet would, since it is much lighter.

I suppose it could damage an eye if you threw it into a fire and the case popped in an unlucky direction, but it isn't going to kill you.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. not true at all
completely false. See my post below.
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northoftheborder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. "anti-gun types" ?
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Did you have a question?
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. What are hoplophobes, Alex?
I'll take irrational fears for $400, Alex.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. A few years ago they found a .22 caliber CASING on the grounds of my grandson's school
School was immediately dismissed, the site was surrounded with yellow crime scene tape, and an army of public safety workers, school personnel and volunteers combed the school grounds until nightfall.

Mind you this was an empty brass casing containing no bullet or powder. It could have been there for 25 years and it definitely posed no threat to anybody except if some dumb kid ate it.

And for weeks we still had parents afraid to send their kids to the school because it was discovered there.

Stupidity over firearms is definitely not confined to the UK.
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David West Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. We took empty .22 casings to elementary school
And used them for artillery shells for our army men. I saved them up whenever my dad took me out shooting. I remember one time we even found a couple live rounds in the pea gravel on the playground. Nothing ever came of it, kids just pocketed them.

The way things are now I can't believe they let us have Army men in school, let alone shell casings. This wasn't even that long ago, mid 90s in rural northern California. I guess all the zero tolerance policies came after columbine.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. So you'll volunteer to lay your head down next to the round as I hit it with a hammer?
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Not if you're swinging the hammer.
You probably couldn't hit a cow in the ass with a boat paddle.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'll let you swing the hammer if you want.
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 04:40 PM by tridim
Though I am a carpenter.

Make sure you have a friend present that can post the video results on youtube.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. You'd be safe. It would make for a boring video. nt
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. So you think that experiment is 100% safe? Zero chance of shrapnel?
You can keep making excuses, but it's a fact that live ammunition is never safe to leave lying around, which is precisely the point of the article.

If I could issue Darwin awards, I'd give one to you and the OP before you kill yourselves.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I wouldn't let you set off a small firecracker next to my head,
but being terrified that a small firecracker will "go off" and kill you is irrational.

The difference between a .22LR cartridge and a small firecracker is that a .22LR isn't going to be set off by brief exposure to a flame.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Firecrackers don't contain a slug in the casing held under pressure.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Now you're just being silly.
The amount of powder in a .22LR round is really negligible.

A firecracker detonated at close range would be more dangerous -- but neither is going to discharge on its own.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
98. Silly is the schtick.
Keeps the post count up.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. See Vincent Di Maio, "Gunshot Wounds" (CRC Press), 2nd ed.
As you might know, Dr. Di Maio is one of the nation's preeminent authorities on firearm forensics, and his works on the topic are widely cited in criminological circles.

The following summary of forensic experiments on the detonation of loose ammunition. See the bolded portion in particular (my emphasis):

In his book "Gunshot Wounds" Vincent Di Maio describes various experiments where ammunition was heated in ovens. He says that .22 long rifle cartridges detonate at an average of 275F, .38 Special at 290F and 12 gauge shotgun shells at 387F. The interesting thing about these furnace experiments was that in all instances the cartridge cases ruptured, but the primers did not detonate. In fact the primers were removed from some of the ruptured cases, reloaded into other brass and fired.

When cartridges are placed in a fire he confirms that the most dangerous component of a cartridge is the brass, or fragments thereof that may cause eye injury or penetrate skin, but certainly there is no evidence that a cartridge that is not in a firearm can cause a mortal wound, either by action of the bullet or the brass/primer fragments. It is important to remember however that a chambered cartridge that detonates in a fire is just as dangerous as a cartridge that is fired under normal circumstances in a firearm.

To get a better understanding of the behaviour of free-standing ammunition in a fire, he conducted experiments with a propane torch. A total of 202 cartridges (handgun, centerfire rifle and shotgun cartridges) were used. If the heat was applied directly to the base of a shotgun shell the primer would detonate, the powder would ignite and the shell would rupture. Any pellets that emerged were traveling too slowly to be recorded on a chronograph.

In rifle and handgun cartridges where the flame was applied to the base of the cartridge the primers always detonated but the powder only ignited in half the cases and in those instances the cases did not rupture but the gas was instead vented through the primer hole.

When he heated these same handgun and rifle cartridges at the front, the powder would burn and the cases would usually rupture but with few exceptions the primers did not detonate. The velocity of expelled projectiles ranged from 58 ft/s to 123 ft/s. The only exception was the .270 cartridge where the bullet velocity was 230 ft/s. Primer velocities ranged from 180 ft/s to 830 ft/s.

As a side note he says that a revolver in a fire is especially dangerous because all the cartridges can cook off and be discharged such that there is a danger from projectiles. Only the bullet that came out of the barrel will have rifling marks and the ones that came from non-aligned chambers will have shear marks on them. Obviously if there is a question about the firing of a weapon and whether it was cooked off or fired intentionally they will look for a firing-pin impression on the primer of the suspect cartridge case.

References:

Sciuchetti G.D. Ammunition and fire. American Rifleman 144(3): 36-38, 59-60, March 1996.

Cooking-Off Cartridges. NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook. Washington, D.C.: The National Rifle Association of America.

Vincent Di Maio, "Gunshot Wounds - practical aspects of firearms, ballistics and forensic technics", 2nd ed., CRC Press, pp. 268-270.


I was mistaken when I said a .22LR could not break the skin, but unless the case was held down and gas was confined by something more than just the case itself, it is not lethal. And in an unconfined cookoff, it is generally the case that poses the greater sik.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Nothing in life is one hundred percent safe
but you seem to want to set the bar there because it makes it easier for you to score juvenile points off of people. A .22 short is about the smallest, least powerful round there is and the chances of somebody getting hurt from finding one are almost nill. Push all you want, you will never turn that molehill into anything larger than another molehill.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. I just don't think it's irrational to worry about live ammo lying on the street.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Keep backing up.
At this rate you'll return to reality in about a year.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Backing up from what?
I still don't see your youtube video.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You got nothin'. nt
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
47. wrong
see my story below.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Pretty much harmless. without the chamber to contain pressure it would puff like a smoke bomb.
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 04:35 PM by OneTenthofOnePercent
*puff* and that would be it. I've hit them with hammers... it's really harmless without the barrel/chamber.
A 22lr has a very thin rim... most gasses would puncture there and exit the case.
Even with only a chamber, there is very little velocity. You really need a chamber and small bt of barrel.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
48. so very wrong and dangerous
see my post beloow about kids playing with .22s
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. I've done it a few times.
Are you suggesting events that I've witnessed were wrong?

Sure, I suppose you could get unlucky in a random ignition of an uncontained round... but it's not anymore dangerous than lighting firecrackers or anything.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. I'll publically give you
the guys name and you can track him down if you like. It was 30 years ago but you may be able to find him. He has a very nice tear above his upper lip. He was a little famous in Texas for a while when escaped convicts in Texas kidnapped him and his Mom. You let me know and I'll give you the name.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. See video: Small bullets outside of a guns chamber are not very dangerous...
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. In that test the brass is pre-heated, and thus soft..
And thus, less velocity.

Still waiting for volunteers for my proposed test.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. Brass anneals at 800-1400F depending on alloy.
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 09:16 PM by OneTenthofOnePercent
that oven probably wasn't half that temperature.
Not that it matters... brass cases are ALREADY in the annealed state.

A thin wall of brass will not allow powder to properly burn as intended. You'd never get a cartridge to propel the bullet at any significant velocity because when the case ruptures (before even most of the powder is consumed) the gasses expand in all direction.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
60. I beg you
go outside right now and hold a lighter to the back of a .22, please, please do it and film it for me.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
80. I'll do it tonight if I can get my webcam set up.
My (old) phone does not do video and I don't own a camcorder.
Maybe I can get a buddy with a smartphone to come over.
I'll probably do it in the basement. :shrug:
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
106. good
don't be afraid, it's safe after all. don't use a stick or a broom to hold the lighter, get in there man, hold it with your hand, get right up there close like Tommy did. May i make a suggestion? Don't use the phone to film it because you'll need that for 911. Repeat the experiment a number of times, prolly only need one though.
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David West Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. I don't want you swinging near my head
But I'll sit around a campfire with you while you throw an entire box of .22lr in.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. No, the hammer will act to partially enclose the reaction.
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 08:08 PM by GreenStormCloud
However, I will sit at a campfire as you throw ammo into it. You seem to not know much about physics.

Darn. Just noticed that another guy made the same offer.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. You thought the story might have come from the Onion?
Pretty damn close... the UK.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. What a wuss... OMG.. a live .22 round... send out the SWAT TEAM...
Fucking asshole...
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VoteProgressive Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. I see no issue with that......
If you knew NOTHING about guns then it just looks like a bullet. Which are to non-gun people dangerous.

Not sure why this is worth making fun of the man.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Does he panic when he sees a sharp kitchen knife?
he has a much higher chance of injuring himself by handling a knife.
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VoteProgressive Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. OK, please keep this in mind from now on.........
This is a simple idea but many pro-gun people do not understand it because of their background.

Most people have used knifes. For cooking, etc.

A lot of people have never held or loaded a gun.

So there is a big difference between them.

I can name 10 people off the top of my head who have never touched a gun.

So a person see a bullet in the street is cause for concern.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. OH MY GOD ... THERE'S A BULLET LAYING IN THE STREET!!!
Please. I can understand a person being apprehensive about handling a firearm. A bullet is a different matter entirely. It's not like a hand grenade.

You probably didn't notice this part of the article.


Haroon Khan, who has a firearms licence and is a member of a local gun club, was alarmed to discover live ammunition in a Walthamstow doorway.

The bullet, of Swiss origin, was still in its brass casing, complete with enough gunpowder for it to fire itself.
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/1013959.bullet_found_in_doorway/




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VoteProgressive Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Your tone, sarcasm and attitude are a lot of the reason people.....
do not like pro gun. I know you do not care but I guess reality escapes you.

I'll keep that in mind during other discussions with you.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
86. The reality is simply that you are overreacting.
You have helped me to understand the absolute terror that some people feel when they see a holstered firearm carried openly in a restaurant or on the street.

Often people have an irrational fear of firearms because of a simple lack of knowledge. If I fear something, I research the subject and become more knowledgeable.

I favor teaching gun safety as a mandatory high school class. In a nation with over 300 million firearms, I feel that such courses only make sense. Many who dislike firearms disagree with this idea as they fear that exposing high school students to firearms may increase their interest in owning one. To many groups such as the Brady Campaign it is very important to have a high percentage of uneducated and fearful people to lie to. For example the Brady Campaign and the Media worked together to convince the uneducated voter that the purpose of the "assault weapons" ban was to stop the sale of fully automatic firearms rather than semi-auto firearms often used by hunters.







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VoteProgressive Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Thanks for the note and I do not favor it gun training.....
No more than teaching motorcycle safety or chainsaw safety or powertool safety in schools. I could name 100 other things. Ladders and falls kill more a year than firearms. We do not teach ladder/fall safety.

I know many people who's kids have had to see a gun or been exposed to guns. I knew these kids when they were born and they are in college now. Never shot or held a gun.

I think people here think everyone has their interest in guns. Many have no interest. Many parents do not want their kids exposed.

It is the gun owner parents responsibility to keep guns away from kids and teach their kids about guns. It is an EASY thing to do. If you can spend $500 on 5 handguns you can own a damn gun safe. If you spend $500 on ONE gun you can guy a $40 pistol safe with a keypad or lock.

I am sure you know this better than anyone Spin. You are a responsible gun owner as are a vast majority of gun owners.

I do think accidental shootings should be punished in cases of parent neglect. This message needs to be spread far and wide.

Lock up and secure your damn guns. If you do not then don't have a gun.

This is not an anti-gun issue. It is a responsibility issue.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. I do agree with you on many points ...
For example, I own a safe and lock boxes for my firearms.

While it is true that many parents do not want their children exposed to firearms, the unfortunate fact is that at one time or another just about every child in our nation will be exposed to them. It is far better for a young person to have some understanding of firearm safety and how firearms work when they find themselves around another person who is handling a firearm. They can then judge if the person is safe or just a fool. If the latter they can point out the irresponsible behavior or politely leave the scene.





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VoteProgressive Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I see your point. The NRA safety program is one of the only things I like....
about the NRA. It is a good cause.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
54. Did you read the story?
According to the article...


Haroon Khan, who has a firearms licence and is a member of a local gun club, was alarmed to discover live ammunition in a Walthamstow doorway.


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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. 22 rounds on the street kill people...
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. Some of my ancestors came from the U.K. ...
boy am I glad they left!

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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
34. I've never heard of a loaded round ever just going off, what a bunch of straight up ignorant,
retarded buffoonery. I understand that the people of the UK have been deemed by their government to be perpetual children who need to have the guns kept away from them, but wow, they are really stupid over there, just straight up morons.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. I saw
a friend back in school many years ago shoot himself in the face with a .22 cal bullet he found. he went into the house, got a lighter and heated the back end of it. Don't under estimate what kids will do with found ammunition.
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pickle juice Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Why didn't you holler "DONT DO THAT" and take it away from him???
:eyes:
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. After
I tried what you suggested I got behind a wall. Band, then bullet hole between the nose and upper lip. The bullet hit the teeth then traveled, following the upper teeth and ended up in the back of the jaw. had to go get his mom.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. Was it the bullet, or the case that struck him?
The laws of physics say it was the latter. With no chamber or boltface to contain it, a cartridge case (thin brass) will rupture and/or go flying long before the bullet (solid lead) will even budge. Fragments of brass from the case may have punctured his skin.

I have seen a jackass throw a handful of .22 rounds into a blazing woodstove. Pop, pop, pop, but no holes in the stove.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. the bullet
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Could you explain how you know this?
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I was in the garage with him when he did it
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #62
100. What was holding the round in place while he heated it?
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. Fuck!!
lay the bastard on a sawhorse or learn to read, I've described the whole thing over and over. You so want this to be untrue just to protect a bullet? Go fucking do it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
110. Deleted message
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. Bullshit.
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 11:23 PM by X_Digger
There's more to the story, or you're wrong.

The laws of physics are more reliable than your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Deleted message
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I HAVE been there when it was done.
20'ish years ago a drunk relative threw a handful of 22's into a campfire without anyone noticing. The worst injury was someone falling out of their chair and scraping their chin on a piece of firewood.

Much cussing and chasing ensued.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Deleted message
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. What part of 'been there, done that' can't you understand?
Or are you claiming that your memory is better than newton's third law?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Deleted message
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. Mythbusters did something similar, with bullets in an oven (and a campfire)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BX1kvJVrjc&feature=related

In both cases it was the casings that went flying, and in the case of the .22 it put at least a little dent in the side of the oven.

I'm a bit surprised that there isn't something more exactly like what you described already on Youtube, but I only looked for about a minute...
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. Fuckkkkkk!!!
Tommy didn't use a campfire!!!!!! Sweet Jesus you guys fuckin read!!! He held a lighter at the primer end of a .22 bullet. I know what you want to believe, you want my story to be untrue. Stop it with the fucking campfire, that heated the bullet uniformly. Tommy heated the primer end only. I really give up, campfire does not equal a pinpoint heat source!!!!
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. And it deformed too ?
This is getting harder to replicate by the minute .

Congess has already ammended the law of thermodynamics Thereby solving our energy problems with cheap affordable and renewable ethanol . Why not all of physics ? Why not make the thin brass case which weighs many times less than the lead projectile react in exactly the opposite way it should ? This will be a great boon as people in SUVs will suddenly find themselves on the loosing end of collsions as trains and trucks begain bouncing off Geo Metros like so many traffic cones .

It is not that I dont appreciate a good story , but you arent buying a big bag full of brass fittings from me to assemble a paradigm shifting electrolytic hydrogen generator on a beat up old Chevy Astro , so I am much less inclined to offer any encouragement at all . it wont take but another 20 or 30 cents on the price of gasolene to drag out the next crop of Cheetoh stained , public school trained , scientist/inventors .

"100 mpg ? ....oh yeah ! I've seen CLOSE ! You just need to be running 4 gauges leads . Here ...let me solder that up for you....... Dr Fucking Oppenheimer ..."

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #77
95. Deleted message
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. Here you go..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUInVIfhfto

Looks like the poster pulled the powder from some bullets and poured it in a line, then laid bullets in the powder.

Notice that the bullet goes forward about four inches in one case, and about six in another. Also notice the brass fragments flying to the left.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. I was looking at that one too, but I can't tell if that's complete cartridges laid in a line, or
just the empty casings. It looks like the bullets themselves are piled down by the pliers...
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Looks like a mix of both.. notice the bullets shooting out to the right.
At 0:07 and 0:09, there appears to be a round cooking off.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. It's hard to say - I thought maybe those were just partially emptied casings
Either way, it won't matter to Ms. Loy: that technically isn't a sawhorse, a chain of gunpowder is not the same as a 1970's era disposable cigarette lighter, and we have no evidence to suggest that the guy conducting the experiment is named Tommy (or any variant thereof)... :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #85
99. Deleted message
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #76
84. Everybody understands your story, Myrna, and nobody really cares if it's true
The point that you seem to be overlooking as you pound out all those exclamation marks is that, even given that your recollection is 100% accurate, what happened to your friend is an extremely unlikely outcome from a heated, unconfined bullet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. Deleted message
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #76
113. Are you sure he wasn't shot in the tabloids ?
Obligatory , cryptic Thin Man joke .

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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
67. If you were behind a wall how do you know what he did? nt
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. sweet jesus
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 11:54 PM by MyrnaLoy
LOL. seriously? Ok, See the wall ends, it has a corner. We are in the same room, he says what he is going to do, I say no, stop. He places the bullet on the saw horse lights the lighter and I move behind the wall. BANG!! I look around the corner, blood streaming out of a hole above his lip. Now, I know what you're thinking, Ninjas could have come into the locked garage in that 3 or so seconds with a Mark III .22 cal pistol and shot him in the face.

I guess I could provide you a stick figure drawing or you could take your family into the garage and do it yourself. Try it 10 times in the name of science, take a cell phone and pre-dial 911.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Ninjas don't usually carry pistols.
Now, if they had dug a shuriken out of his lip, then maybe...

I don't necessarily doubt you, I'm just trying to understand how it happened. I've never heard of a cartridge discharging a bullet when heated. How did the bullet blow out of the case if it was standing on end pointed up (as if your friend were leaning over it). If it were standing up, how did he get the heat to it from a lighter? If it wasn't standing up, but rather laying on its side so he could heat the base of it, it was probably pointed away from him. How did the bullet exit the case into his lip?

I'm just having a hard time picturing how it would have happened. You were kids, maybe you misremembered.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. nope
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 12:36 AM by MyrnaLoy
not pointed up. he had it positioned on the saw horse laying down and aiming at the wall.the primer end was right at the edge of the saw horse. I will always remember telling him that without a barrel he doesn't know which way it would go. I was right, it actually fired and the bullet ended up in his face. My guess is the whole thing rotated when it exploded. The bullet hitting was a million to one but it did explode, ie fire and it did penetrate.

No, I didn't misremeber, you don't forget seeing your friend shot in the face.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Maybe it was sort of a cook off.
Instead of a primer detonation that lights the powder, the heat made the powder burn slowly enough to spin the bullet as the case ruptured (creates a jet of hot gas at an angle to the long axis of the bullet). I guess if the rupture were close enough to the bullet itself the split in the top of the case might release the bullet enough to drive it out and into his face. That's a real million to one bad luck occurrence though.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. I haven't said all of it though
remember when I said the bullet tracked a path around the curve of his teeth? I don't know if he was in shock or what but he pushed on his face around the path the bullet took and worked the bullet back out of the hole. I remember it being deformed and wondered why it didn't knock the tooth out. I had to go into the house and get his Mom. It's hard to tell your friend's Mom that her son shot himself in the face.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #74
83. Makes sense. It wasn't traveling very fast
in tissue of various consistancy. Bullets do all kinds of crazy things when they hit stuff.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #74
87. I thought they removed it at the hospital...
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Damn, I missed that. And I was trying so hard to believe her. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #87
97. Deleted message
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #97
102. So which is it? He removed it himself or they did it at the hospital?
You are so busted for making shit up!!!!


:rofl:

Classic. Bookmarking.
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. I'll
bookmark the video when you try it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Deleted message
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. So you made it up? Just one part or all of it?
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David West Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
55. And what happened when he shot himself in the face?
Did he die? Did the bullet penetrate his skull? Did the bullet leave the casing or did the whole cartridge fly up and smack him in the face?

You gotta explain your story better. I've seen literally HUNDREDS of rounds ranging from .22lr all the way up to 30-06 and .300 win mag detonated in fire. The only ones that are even remotely dangerous seem to be steel cased 7.62 wolf, presumably because the cartridge itself contains more pressure, and even then they usually just fly 15 feet feet out of the fire with a sharp edge around the mouth of the cartrdige. Brass cases usually just blow out the side just above the primer leaving the bullet seated. .22lr rounds stay seated and don't even have enough force to make it out of the fire pit. The biggest danger is all the sparks and hot coals that get sent flying out of the fire, and that isn't much.

And don't ask me how I know all this. ;)
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MyrnaLoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. the bullet
went in above his upper lip, hit the teeth and traced a path around the curve of the teeth. It ended up towards the back of the jaw. At the hospital they removed the bullet, cleaned the wound and the path t took and sewed up the hole. it was a very small hole but the path was about 3 inched. I don't know how far in would have gone if the teeth hadn't stopped it.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
101. I thought you said he took it out himself? Here is where you stated that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=391079&mesg_id=391380


Uh, oh, somebody forgot to keep track of the lies.....:rofl:


Busted! :nuke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
90. Deleted sub-thread
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
78. This is not an uncommon occurance on Airstrip One
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/1013959.bullet_found_in_doorway/

Happened once in 2006 as well .
Thuckertthhhhh !
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
88. It might be reasonable.
What are the laws concerning possession of ammunition in the UK? The man might very well had a good reason for not picking up that loose round. I don't know UK law enough to say one way or the other but am under the impression that one needs a permit from the police to possess a firearm or ammunition.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. That sort of rings a bell - wasn't there a case few years ago in the UK where a man
found a shotgun (?), took it to the local police station, and was arrested for illegal possession?
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #94
112. Yeah... this guy.
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 08:48 PM by -..__...
http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html

I sometimes wonder if the "subjects of the crown" wouldn't have been better off living under German/nazi government.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. That's it - thanks! Looks like he ended up with a 12-month suspended sentence
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kudzu22 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
109. This sounds like an awesome way to get class cancelled
if you need a day off. Just sayin'.
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smoking357 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
114. What He's Doing Is...
The kook who called in the live round is trying to prove his obeisance to the state. It's common in totalitarian settings for people to prove their submissiveness to the masters. It's a sad but common psychological means of competing for one's own interests, hoping the state will see him as less of a threat than his neighbour.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
116. Did they trace it in chalk?
I can just imagine some special investigators showing up, fighting with the local PD to take control of the investigation, maybe ruffing up the usual suspects in the process. They were likely working in shifts in the crime lab.


I really hope some cop went rogue and started his own personal investigation to settle some score he's had for the past 20 years (wife was killed by a bullet found in the road or something).

Man my heart is racing.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
117. You mean James Garner movie where he stuck bullet in his mouth and slaps back of his head was BS?

I swear I saw it, and the fired slug hit the bad guy.
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