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Mr. Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 09:33 AM
Original message
Republicans vote in favour of terrorists on gun laws
Last year, a GAO report found that individuals on the federal terror watch list were able to purchase firearms from licensed dealers more than 1,000 times. And just last month, the GAO reported that nearly 1300 people on that list purchased guns since 2004.

Rep. Mike Quigley (D-IL) argued recently that this “terror gap” needs to be closed:

Nearly a decade after 9/11, the federal government can prevent suspects on terror watch lists from boarding an airplane but not from buying firearms. The Bush and Obama administrations both endorsed a bill that would close the gap, but Congress hasn’t acted.

Making good on his word, Quigley sponsored an amendment to the FISA Sunsets Reauthorization Act of 2011 that would allow the Attorney General to “deny transfer of a firearm if information obtained through the use of authorites” under FISA “indicates that a prospective firearm transferee is or has been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism.”

Yet the House Judiciary Committee this afternoon voted against that amendment, 22-11, straight down party lines, with all “Nay” votes coming from Republicans and all “Ayes” coming from Democrats. Echoing arguments made by National Rifle Association leaders, Reps. Louis Gohmert (R-TX) and Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) spoke out in opposition of the amendment, saying it infringes upon people’s Second Amendment rights.

But while the NRA leadership may feel this way, its members do not. Last year, ThinkProgress attended the NRA’s annual conference in Charlotte, NC and asked dozens of NRA members if those on the terrorist watch list should be able to purchase firearms and an overwhelming majority agreed that they should not.


http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2011/05/12/republicans-terror-watch-list-guns/

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. sick
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Is the "hunter" in your screen name a synonym for "supporter" or "lover" or "cheerleader"?
Your post appears to be full- throated support for fascism--deprivation of rights without due process of law.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I think the word you want is "euphemism," not "synonym" (n/t)
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. OK, let's just think about this logically for a second.
They are terrorists. They don't follow laws. What makes you think that gun control does anything but keep law abiding citizens from getting guns? These people are already criminals. What makes you guys think that just because a new law comes along that they are all of a sudden going to follow the law? Personally, I feel more comfortable with law abiding folks having just as many if not more guns than the others. I live in a red state. And while this place is infuriating, there is one thing that you have to give these good ol' country boys. They teach their kids gun safety and pass down respect of fire arms. We always had guns in our house. We knew if we touched those guns we wouldn't be able to sit down for a week. But then they took us out and showed us how to use those guns too. You don't put something like that off limits and then not show kids the dangers of the same. That is one thing I will always believe in, no matter how progressive or liberal I am. The 2nd amendment. Now, don't get me wrong, automatic assault rifles have no place anywhere but the military. But there is a place for hand guns and rifles in day to day lives if you are safe and know what you are doing and spread the knowledge.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Actually, they aren't terrorists..
Edited on Sat May-14-11 12:19 PM by X_Digger
As the list doesn't actually have 'people' on it, just aliases of people suspected of being involved with terrorism.

There is (or at least was) a 'T.Kennedy' on the list. So when Teddy, Tamara, Thomas, Tyler, or Tyrone Kennedy booked airfare, they were flagged for extra screening and may have been denied boarding.

This bill would have denied all people matching 'T.Kennedy' the ability to purchase (or transfer to in some states) any firearm. Considering that by best guess there are a million *names* on the list, who knows how many actual people would have been affected by this.

That's not even getting to the problem with due process (and the lack thereof) involved with prohibiting the exercise of a constitutionally protected right.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm talking about gun laws and you're talking about terrorist watch lists.
Hmmmm. I don't think you meant to reply to me.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Actually, I am.. you said..
"They are terrorists."

It's not a huge correction, but I wanted to make sure that you understood that the list isn't a list of people, it's a list of names (sometimes just first initial and last name.)
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. They were talking about passing laws to keep guns out of terrorists' hands.
I then went into a diatribe about gun laws and how criminals and terrorists don't follow laws, so why pass more laws they're not going to follow. Did you actually read MY post?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I did, but this proposed law wasn't about 'terrorists'.. just names.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. The topic ties the two together
In case you missed this part of the OP (which would be understandable, given its total lack of connection to reality), Rep. Quigley's proposed legislation would, if adopted, have prohibited persons on the so-called "terrorist watch list" from purchasing firearms from a Federal Firearms Dealer. Thus, a gun law based on the "watch list."
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Right....
But my point was adding gun laws on top of gun laws do nothing but keep LAW ABIDING CITIZENS from getting guns, not criminals or terrorists. I was going into a diatribe about gun laws, not the terror watch list. I may have ignored that totally ridiculous part because the terror watch list is a joke.
Duckie
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Genuine suspected terrorists aren't on the list.
I don't remember where I read it but they keep genuine suspect off the list so they won't get tipped off that they are being watched if they try to fly.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'm talking about gun laws and you're talking about terrorist watch lists.
I don't think you replied to the correct post.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. In post #2 you said, "They are terrorists"
I pointed out the genuine terrorists suspects are kept off the list.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Did you actually read the OP?
The proposed legislation would have prohibited "suspected terrorists" from purchasing firearms from a Federal Firearms Licensee. The problem is that the term "suspected terrorist" as used by one clueless news media source after another in practice means persons who names appear on the "terrorist watch list." Thus, the proposed legislation would have prohibited anyone and everyone with names like "Robert Johnson," "David Nelson," "John Shaw," "Michelle Green" and "T. Kennedy" (to name but a handful of the at least tens of thousands of names on the lists) from purchasing firearms.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I did.
I was going into a diatribe about gun laws. The Terror watch list is a joke, so I ignored that part based on the fact that it is a joke. :shrug:
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. When people on this board want to use it as an excuse to trample liberty, freedom and Civil Rights-
The joke is fucking over.
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Oneka Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. self delete.
Edited on Sat May-14-11 08:25 PM by Oneka
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. DU hated the terrorist watch list when Bush was in office.
Edited on Fri May-13-11 09:49 AM by ZombieHorde
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. DU has railed against the no fly list since its inception. Now it great thing?
What about openness, transparency and some semblance of due process?
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You don't understand
that tolerance and inclusiveness only applies to those who AGREE with them.

The Patriot Act and the abuses that flow from it are reprehensible, unless the provisions are used against the Untermenschaen they hate, e.g. gun owners, meat-eaters, breeders, etc.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. I've noticed that too. Don't forget country and small town types too
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Anything that takes away 2nd amendment rights is justifiable to many people
they would burn the rest of the constitution if it means they could get rid of that pesky "right to bear arms" bit.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. Nobody should ever be denied a civil right without due process of law
The House Judiciary Committee did the right thing. It's unfortunate that a handful of Democratic members voted in favor of the unconstitutional Bush/Cheney era secret list.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. According to some anyone wanting to buy a gun should be on the list.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. this has been covered several times. It's a good thing they rejected the turn America into a corrupt
Banana republic bill.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. Even setting aside the issue of denying civil rights based on suspicion and a secret list,
I don't see the logic of this. If someone is really being watched and investigated, wouldn't denying them a firearm purchase be a huge tipoff?

I would much rather see Democrats stepping up to investigate and limit these lists, rather than trying to find new ways to use them...
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. They voted in favor of Due Process
Denying civil rights based on baseless blacklists... how very progressive of people who support this kind of government.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Umm, revoking gun rights based on the Bush Terrah Watch Lists was a REPUBLICAN proposal.
It was proposed by the administration of George W. Bush (heard of him?) via his Attorney General Alberto "No Such Thing as Habeus Corpus Either" Gonzales. I'm actually surprised that the repubs are stepping back from the whole blacklist schtick, but I'm glad to see it. It's about damn time.

For those who have forgotten why the Bush Terrah Blacklists were and are a bad idea, here's a reminder from the ACLU:

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/watch-lists
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. where did you see that?
it was proposed by the administration of George W. Bush (heard of him?) via his Attorney General Alberto "No Such Thing as Habeus Corpus Either" Gonzales.

Seriously, please help me find it.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. From the Congressional Research Service:
Edited on Sat May-14-11 07:43 PM by benEzra
This is originally from the Congressional Research Service, and hence is quoted at some length since the source is a government document and AFAIK public domain):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL33011.pdf

CRS Report for Congress
Order Code RL33011

Terrorist Screening and Brady Background Checks for Firearms
July 25, 2005

William J. Krouse
Specialist in Domestic Security
Domestic Social Policy Division

Summary
Historically, terrorist watch list checks were not part of the firearms background check process implemented pursuant to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. Such watch lists were not checked, because being a known or suspected terrorist is not a disqualifying factor for firearm transfer/possession eligibility under current federal or state law. Nevertheless, if a person is a known or suspected terrorist, it suggests that there may be an underlying factor (e.g., illegal immigration or fugitive status) that could bar him from legal firearms possession. For a time, moreover, all Brady background check records for approved firearm transfers were destroyed almost immediately, precluding the opportunity to used the background check system to screen for known and suspected terrorists.

Consequently, three issues emerged regarding Brady background checks following the 9/11 attacks. First, should approved firearm transfer records be maintained on a temporary basis to determine whether persons of interest in counterterrorism investigations had previously obtained firearms improperly? Second, should terrorist watch list checks be incorporated statutorily into the Brady background check process? Third, should persons watch-listed as known or suspected terrorists be prohibited statutorily from possessing firearms?

In February 2004, the FBI reportedly modified its National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) operating procedures to retain NICS records temporarily for approved transfers that result in terrorist watch list hits, and to pass that information on to FBI investigators on the Joint Terrorism Task Forces. In addition, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has directed the DOJ Office of Legal Policy to form a working group to review federal gun laws---particularly in regard to Brady background checks---to determine whether additional authority should be sought to prevent firearms transfers to known and suspected terrorists.

In the 109th Congress, several related pieces of legislation have been introduced that are related to NICS procedures and terrorist watch lists. The Terrorist Apprehension and Record Retention Act of 2005 (S. 578/H.R. 1225), introduced by Senator Frank Lautenberg and Representative John Conyers, would authorize the retention of all related records for at least 10 years, among other things. In addition, Representative Peter King introduced H.R. 1168, a bill that would require the Attorney General to promulgate regulations to preserve records of terrorist- and gangrelated record hits during such background checks until they were provided to the FBI. Representative Carolyn McCarthy introduced H.R. 1195, a bill that would make it unlawful for anyone to transfer a firearm to a person who was on the “No Fly” lists maintained by the Transportation Security Administration.

...

Prior to HSPD-6, DOJ initiated, in February 2002, a NICS transaction audit to determine whether prohibited aliens (noncitizens) were being improperly transferred firearms.21 As part of this audit, NICS procedures were changed, so that NICS examiners were informed of VGTOF hits. Effective February 2004, the FBI reportedly changed its NICS operating procedures to inform NICS examiners of VGTOF hits for known and suspected terrorists.22 In non-Point of Contact (non- POC) states, NICS staff validate terrorism-related VGTOF hits by contacting TSC staff. The latter have greater access to identifiers in terrorist files, with which known and suspected terrorists can be more positively identified. In full and partial POC states, the law enforcement officials who conduct firearms-related background checks under the Brady Act contact TSC staff directly. In the case of valid hits, NICS staff delay the transactions for up to three business days and contact the FBI Counterterrorism Division to allow field agents to check for prohibiting factors.


Note that the driver behind this was the Bush Administration, who had been looking at the issue as far back as 2002. The Congresspeople who carried the water for Gonzales on this happened to be Dems (and the first public airing of this issue seems to be an exchange between Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) and AG Gonzales in a hearing), but the Bush Justice Department seems to have been the primary driver behind it. This should not be surprising, as the Bush Justice Department was the primary driver behind the expansion of the watchlists in general, among their other Tom-Clancy-esque activities.

Also note the equating of watchlisted citizens with "known and suspected terrorists", a Bushism that the gun control lobby has happily run with.

Here's another article from 2007, when the issue had picked up more steam in the MSM:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269007,00.html

Justice Department, Senator Endorse Bill to Bar Gun Sales to Terror Suspects

Friday, April 27, 2007

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department and a Northeastern Democrat have formed a rare alliance intended to restrict gun sales to terror suspects.

The bill, introduced late Thursday by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., after two years of study produced an endorsement by the Justice Department, would give the attorney general power to block gun sales to persons on terrorism watch lists. In some instances, the attorney general could let a sale go through — for example, when stopping the sale would hinder a terrorism investigation.

(continued at link)


Note also the Bush Administration's insistence that gun sales to actual terrorists needed to remain unblocked under "No Fly No Buy," because an NICS denial would be an easy tip-off to an actual terrorist that he/she was under surveillance. So the irony is that this proposal would almost exclusively inconvenience those who are not terrorists, to avoid screwing up actual counter-terror operations.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. I seem to recall it first being proposed by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) (n/t)
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. The Bush Administration was looking at gun sales to the watchlisted as far back as 2002.
Edited on Sat May-14-11 07:35 PM by benEzra
When Gonzales was appointed in 2005, one of his first actions appears to have been the creation of a working group to study the feasibility of blocking gun sales to persons on the administration's watchlists. It appears that Lautenberg's original bill was an outgrowth of those discussions, and Lautenberg would certainly have been an obvious choice to introduce such a bill.

See my other post for primary sources; the Bush Administration had its fingers in this from the beginning. As I mentioned, the first public airing of the issue appears to have been an exchange between Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) and Gonzales in a public Congressional hearing, but the issue appears to go further back than that.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. Not this nonsense again
Yeah just like saying people should be entitled to a fair trial is voting in favor of murderers.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'm a little dismayed that "thinking progress" seems to mean...
...embracing ignorance, supporting unconstitutional behavior by the executive branch of government, and asking misleading questions in opinion surveys.

Suppose whoever TP sent to the NRA conference last year had asked the following question:
Do you think a U.S. citizen should be prohibited from purchasing a firearm because his or her name partially matches that on a TSA-administered list, for which there are no defined criteria for inclusion and which the TSA refuses to submit to judicial review?

How many people, especially NRA members, do you think would reply "yes"? Because is a significantly more accurate depiction of the "terrorist watch list" than TP's description of it.
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