Stu Bykofsky: Openly carrying a gun is legal ... and irresponsible

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/columnists/121973154.html

<snip>

* It is provocative - as it was with Philly cops. I have seen people open-carry in places as different as Tucson and Tel Aviv, but their culture is different. Nobody looks twice. Here, people might react in bad ways, deadly ways.

* It is frightening to others. Civilians are used to seeing armed police or military, but an armed civilian raises fears. Is the gunslinger some freaked-out college student ready for a rampage, a loser loner looking for revenge against society, a racist Christian Identity skinhead bent on murder or an Islamist jihadi on a terror tear?

* It is dangerous. Someone could snatch the gun out of the holster and start blasting. Some holsters - such as the one for my Sig Sauer .45 - have locking mechanisms, but most don't. It's also dangerous to the gun owner because cops' nervous systems electrify - out of self-preservation - at the sight of a gun.

The 25-year-old Fiorino is a law-abiding citizen who knows the law, but we live in a city with too many non-law-abiding citizens packing heat. That his digital recorder was locked and loaded, and that he calmly called police "sir" and "gentlemen," suggests that Fiorino wanted this confrontation.

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The vast majority of American homes do not have guns - and they do not want to see gun extremists carrying guns everywhere all the time.

If you want restrictive gun laws - open carry

it will bite the GOP/NRA in the ass

yup

Your argument from authority just failed.

yup

Outside of the folks who are already inclined to be afraid of gun owners in general, much less people who open carry, exactly where is this backlash coming from?

yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup

Though it is definitely asking for trouble, both from the police and from anyone who might want to sneak up on you and grab your gun.

Can you cite to any instances of this?

I've seen a couple of linked articles on THR but it happens about as often as Newt Gingrich tells the truth so I think we're safe

...do so using a retention holster of some sort, to avoid issues such as these.

And I'm pretty picky about who I let get close to me. That said, there have been a very few instances of guns being stolen from open carriers.

Happens a little more often than jpack posts an unbiased story

Depends on the state but outside philly its not indicative of a crime. The best you can expect is a mere encounter. In philly one must have a permit to carry open or concealed so they can stop and verify they have a permit. This is way beyond that going by the audio

it is designed so a specific motion releases it from the holster, you can't just grab it from the back, side or front.

yup

The only way people are ever going to get used to the idea of somebody carrying a firearms as common place again is to see it everyday folks carrying. To be honest, the only people that really retract in horror over this are folks that aren't too likely to be supporters of Second Amendment rights in the first place, so I'm not really seeing were the massive backlash is going to come from on this, especially if you think it'll be against the GOP because they appear to be made out of some sort of Teflon in the eyes of the American Public given how willing we are to forget their almost constant ham handedness when it comes to the handling of the nation.

asshole teabaggers openly carry guns at political rallies to intimidate and create fear

cops instinctively fear civilians openly carrying handguns

open carry - it sucks

the end

yup

...do some folks open carry to intimidate? Yes, I'm sure it does happen. But the majority, or even ALL as you are claiming? Not even close. Like I said, the idea is to start getting people comfortable with the idea again. You see, the real fear mongers are you and folks like yourself, who have over the years been working to convince people that guns and gun owners are something to be feared. It's going to take time to repair the damage done. That's why, in Wisconsin for instance, you see Open Carry picnics and cook outs in parks and food drives at grocery stores. The entire idea of events is to REMOVE the fear generated by people like yourself, not to INSTILL fear in the general populace.

You can prove this statement I presume? I OC I don't attempt to intimidate all around me. Most of the time the gun isn't even noticed. This includes cops BTW


open carry - it sucks

You have experience? ( w/ open carry I mean not sucking)

And , quite naturally , claim he was " fuckin 'set up" .

I am a cop and I do NOT fear citizens openly carrying firearms. Nor do those cops I work with. It is a simple part of life. I also will add that the Philadelphia police have had some serious training on this topic after that incident to insure the police respond in a more civilized and appropriate way. This incident has actually helped the issue along.

Are you an FOP member? I don't know any officers open carry freaks out. Pear don't try and speak for LE

Open carry causes far more problems than it solves.

If people see someone walking through a crowd carrying a firearm, people have to make a decision: Is this a person committing a crime or just lawfully carrying a firearm. Should they call the police or not? Because the consequences of guessing wrong are so dire, the logical decision is to call the police to be safe. This causes panic, diverts important police resources from real crime, and raises the risk of someone accidentally getting shot by spooked police.

As my martial arts instructor used to teach - never show a weapon unless you are going to use it. To do otherwise gives away your advantage of surprise. Showing a weapon can result in a dedicated attacker deciding to take out you, as the highest threat, first. It can also provoke a "tough guy" approach, whereby the aggressor "pushes" the weapon holder - "You gonna shoot me? Huh?!?", especially when there is more than one assailant and there is an urge not to "lose face" in front of his fellow assailants. This is precisely what happened when Gary Fadden gunned down one of his assailants who was charging him with a knife yelling, "F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

It is true that with an open-carry firearm you probably have quicker access to the firearm. It is also true that the display of a firearm may deter a non-dedicated attacker who aborts his attack in favor of weaker prey.

But in my opinion these advantages are greatly outweighed by the disadvantages above.

The bottom line is this: When guns are displayed in public, it should only be because something bad has happened. As a result, whenever guns are displayed in public, the police should be called. People should not be required nor expected to try and differentiate law-abiding people displaying guns with criminals displaying guns. The police should be called, and they can deal with the issue.

Concealed Carry is the proper way to carry firearms.

I don't think I have ever seen a criminal openly walk around with a firearm just like it was a normal day. Typically they keep them concealed until the are ready to commit the crime (unless they are using a long arm of some sort, in which case it's likely to be a quick job and really I'm not going to have a lot of time to ponder if the person is a criminal or not, their intent will be clear).

The problem is that some people ARE freaked out in general by both open and concealed carry, and it's a mindset we have to combat, not placate.

I don't think I have ever seen a criminal openly walk around with a firearm just like it was a normal day. Typically they keep them concealed until the are ready to commit the crime (unless they are using a long arm of some sort, in which case it's likely to be a quick job and really I'm not going to have a lot of time to ponder if the person is a criminal or not, their intent will be clear).

The problem is that some people ARE freaked out in general by both open and concealed carry, and it's a mindset we have to combat, not placate.

I seem to remember reading about shooters in the past who were rather nonchalant in their crime, like Klebold and Harris.

But the bottom line is you will never win a battle against people's mindset on firearms. You cannot expect people to stop and figure out whether something legal or illegal is going on. The safest route is to call the police and let them deal with it, and this is what most people will do. It is what I would do. I'm not going to take a chance on guessing wrong.

...at least so far as this is what "most people" will do when they see somebody open carry. While it DOES happen from time to time, the number of incidents of the police being called compared to the number of times people actually open carry is fairly small. I also think we'll be seeing fewer people get freaked out if only because both open and concealed carry have been bigger news the last few years.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one buddy.

Happen in places like Arizona or new Mexico or (to a lesser degree) Colorado? The only places I hear of major problems w/ OC are in places that are already anti gun, repressive and authoritarian to begin with.

Oddly enough it seems that the Rocky Mountain states are the most tolerant of OC. Must be that clean mountain air

The only places I hear of major problems w/ OC are in places that are already anti gun, repressive and authoritarian to begin with.

There are many places in this country where firearms will never be seen as normal. There is very little to be gained trying to push open carry in those places.

Same sex couples weren't seen as the norm in most of this country. Now they're not worthy of comment.

I'm thinking you can see where I'm going w/ this right?

was not seen as normal.

You know, until people actually started to do it.

And has one of the most strict constitutions of any state

Article 1 section 21 The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms in defense of Themselves and the State shall not be questioned

Insert any other group and action you want in that statement, and see if it doesn't sound bigotted as all fuck.

I'm pretty disappointed that this has to be brought up on this website.

I can't think of any other civil right you could exercise that would make people wonder if a violent crime is imminent.

Seriously?

Being black in the "wrong neighborhood"?

to do with escalating that situation. It was already as escalated as it could get, and Fadden was in a purely defensive situation.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749/

"Situation: A road-rage incident escalates into a deadly pursuit.

Lesson: Keep communications as handy as your gun. Bad guys fear resolutely armed people, not weapons. Remember that full auto can stop a fight--but start an indictment.

It's amazing how often a criminal will say something unbelievably stupid just before he forces a decent citizen to kill him. For many years I've been piecing together a book subtitled "Famous Last Words of Scumbags." The working title will come from the most memorable such incident: "F*** You and Your Automatic Rifle!"

The shooter was Gary Fadden. The incident took place some 20 years ago. Only now is Gary comfortable speaking of it, in hopes that others may learn from lessons that cost him very deeply.

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The Incident

Sunday, February 24, 1984, approximately 2 PM. Gary Fadden, 26, and his lovely 22 year old fiancee are driving from a birthday party in Martinsburg, WV, into Virginia to look at some property for what they hope will be their starter home after their marriage. It's a bitterly cold day, and with the winter coats in the back of a new '84 Ford F-250 supercab 4WD diesel pickup, the Pendleton-clad Fadden looks from a distance like a harmless Yuppie. That means he and the pretty brunette look like prey to another kind of person."



6 more pages at the link. Ayoobs' usual detailed analysis, good read.

I think it is a perfect example of what my instructor was explaining could happen. Assailant confronted with an armed victim who then pumps up his bravado rather than backs down. It's "tough guy" syndrome.

but I'm not seeing anything that supports your assertion.


"The passenger is running toward him, an average size man in ratty clothes with stringy hair, a long beard, and an expression of absolute rage.

snip

There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand."


There was no point before or after presenting the defensive weapon when the assailant was not commiting the attack. There was no point when the assailant presented any indication of hesitation or willingness to back down. There was no point that an opportunity to safely de-escalate the situation seemed obvious. Your assertion seems perilously close to "blaming the victim". If you have clear evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

"F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

My instructor warned us, and I have heard other accounts of this in the past, that some people, when they see someone with a weapon, will try and "push" to see if they can provoke a response. They will take the presence of the weapon as a challenge, and rather than retreat, they will escalate the situation, playing "tough guy". I can see this especially being the case when there is an audience and the possibility of losing face.

The guy in this article did just that. Now in this case obviously the attackers were probably already bent on assault. But the same kind of false bravado in response to being confronted with an armed victim is what I'm talking about.

I draw because I perceive a threat that is serious enough that I will shoot as soon as I am on target unless the perceived threat stands down completely.


My instructor warned us, and I have heard other accounts of this in the past, that some people, when they see someone with a weapon, will try and "push" to see if they can provoke a response.

If you see my gun you've already provoked a response

My instructor was not talking about drawing a weapon as a challenge.

He said you will get people who, when they see someone with a weapon, will challenge them.

If you see my gun you've already provoked a response

This is as it should be.

The challenge had already been made, far earlier than the presentation of the defenders' weapon.

Your example doesn't seem to fit your hypothesis.

The challenge had already been made, far earlier than the presentation of the defenders' weapon.

You are correct. I am not disputing this point. I am only pointing out an example where an aggressor sees an armed victim and still issues a verbal challenge in the face of overwhelming firepower.

I do not dispute that this particular event involved a much longer series of events. It's not a great example but it's the example that immediately popped into my head of someone running their mouth off at a person with a firearm.

The exact circumstances are beside the point. The point is, you will find people who, when they discover a person with a weapon, will try and pick a fight to show how tough and unafraid they are, and/or to try and "call the bluff" of the person carrying the weapon.

Ultimately, open carry is a bad idea because it draws attention. This is almost never helpful.

We have several posters that claim that if they see a case of OC they will go up and scream in their face about what a dickweed coward they are. One, who is no longer with us, promised to take the gun away and beat them over the head with it.

Either they have a strange sociopathy or they are loudmouth keyboard commandos. I'm guessing the latter, not unlike several others that seem to live in Mom's basement, served no military service, but always "know" how poorly a CCW will react to any real danger or threat.

That really pissed them off .......

I had to stop in the middle of this post , right after the word "off" to deal with an alleged "customer" that became enraged with the way that I looked at him . He took great offense that I was rubbing my freshly shaved mug and seemed to be attempting to infer that this indicated that I was thinking about what a huge fucking loser he was . Completely festooned in scooter tramp regalia and on foot , I suspect a gaping hole in his self esteem was at work .

Anyway....what a timely encounter ! It's pretty scramble brained to throw the Fadden attack out as an example of escalation caused by the mere presence of a weapon . Just another crew of poorly integrated Visigoths out for blood .

And deletes the recording when he returns and nothing happens. Most OCers have a recorder they can access quickly, and none I personally know carry without retention. Even I carry with the recorder on my phone ready with a quick button push, and I have less to fear while OCing than your average carrier imo.

Retention protects from grabs and the recorder from the police. It shouldnt be necessary but even in Pa where OC is well known OCers still get messed with. The cops can hardly claim ignorance when multiple updates about it have been released statewide

"The 25-year-old Fiorino is a law-abiding citizen who knows the law, but we live in a city with too many non-law-abiding citizens packing heat. That his digital recorder was locked and loaded, and that he calmly called police "sir" and "gentlemen," suggests that Fiorino wanted this confrontation."

I'm sure Fiorino calmly calling police "sir" and "gentlemen," had nothing to do with the guns pointed at him. :eyes:

nothing to do with this news story you posted.

Also WhoTF is stu bykofsky and why should I care what he says?

Heard second hand that at NRA convention last month he called open carry stupid. Had some pretty strong words against it from what I've been told.

Saw someone on google search who was pissed enough hearing this at NRA convention to write him a letter.

with all those "shoot first" laws out there, no one will ever get close enough to one of those heavily paranoid OC folks to make a grab.

<< sarcasm thingie >>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/17/976876/-They-were-just-lookin-for-trouble-?via=spotlight

Interesting parallels....

...know better.