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Yet another criminal thwarted by CCW

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drpepper67 Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 01:48 PM
Original message
Yet another criminal thwarted by CCW
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/attempted-barber-shop-robbery-turns-deadly-in-detroit-20110708-wpms?obref=obinsite

When one bad guy said, "Why you stalling? Empty your pockets," he then fired a shot into the floor of the barber shop. That's when the customer in the chair opened fire and emptied his clip containing multiple rounds.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, yeah, that makes a good case for widespread availability of guns
:sarcasm:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
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drpepper67 Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Do you remember that guy in Connecticut who's family was killed?
Would that be better outcome in your opinion?
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You guys really struggle with reading comprehension
I don't know where you get these references. sad
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drpepper67 Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Ok, I'll be more plain.
An unarmed person has no way to defend against someone intent on doing them harm.

Like the man in Connecticut who watched his family get slaughtered.

Do you understand now or should I explain in more detail for you?

The person in the link was armed and stopped the person intend on committing a crime and possibly doing people harm.

I'm not sure I'm the one who struggles with reading comprehension though.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. It sure does,
And I hope you get indigestion from that case. Should make your Kole real sore, I hope. :evilgrin: :nopity:
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. "emptied his clip containing multiple rounds"?
:rofl: Ron Savage, the Shakespeare of our time. Those kids could have just as easily been killed if the caped crusader had missed and one of the "bad guys" returned fire.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I did think that Mr Savage is well suited to writing adventure stories for the
pre-teen set, but I applaud the customer's action. This is exactly the kind of rare but life-threatening situation for which RKBA advocates wish the right to be prepared...
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. And all of them could have been killed had they complied..
See Lane Bryant shooting, Church's Chicken shooting.

Did you forget that the bad guy shot first? (Into the floor..) What makes you think he wouldn't have shot everyone anyway?
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. If....If....If...IT DIDN'T.
Those of you who are anti-gun, and anti-self defense, alway start trying to find ways in which defending against a criminal could have gone wrong and use your imagined catastrophes as an argument to meekly surrender to violent crime and throw ourselves on the tender mercies of violent felons.

In this real world incident, as in almost all of them, the legal gunner didn't shoot down any innocents.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. blah blah blah blah
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. Was just going to post this. K and R
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. funny how when jpak posts an anecdote, he gets blasted by the gun people.
When the gun people post an anecdote, it's proof of their side.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Actually, jpak gets blasted for the spin he puts on his stories, not for the story itself.
There is big difference there. He either posts stories with no commentary at all, which is little more than spam, or what commentary he adds is laughable at best, and that is why he gets blasted.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Anecdotal evidence can be legitimate, depending on what you're seeking to prove
Edited on Thu Jul-14-11 09:55 PM by Euromutt
In broad terms, anecdotal evidence can disprove a rule, even though it can't prove one. For example, a single black swan doesn't prove all swans are black, or even X percentage of swans are black; it does, however, prove that not all swans are white.

To apply this to this forum, examples of CCW permit holders successfully using firearms to defend themselves or others do not prove that firearms are always effective tools for self-defense, but they do prove that claims that firearms are practically never useful for self-defense* are patently false.

By contrast, anecdotal stories of negligent discharges, kids finding unsecured handguns, familicides, etc. do not prove that all--or even a significant number of--gun owners are prone to this kind of behavior, despite the almost constant insinuation that accompanies such postings that they are.

* - Claims along the lines of "you'll never be able to draw and present it in time if an assailant has the drop on you," "the assailant will just take the gun off you," "you'll hit one or more innocent bystanders," etc. etc. et-fucking-cetera.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-11 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. so pro-gun anecdotes are legitimate, anti-gun anecdotes are not.
at least we know the ground rules, then.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-11 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I think you've misunderstood what Euromutt was saying
In general, the pro-gun anecdotes posted here disprove claims that are actually made by anti-RKBA posters.

In contrast, the anti-gun anecdotes that are posted don't disprove any claims that are actually made by pro-RKBA posters, not do they support the conclusions that are often drawn from them. (The anti-gun anecdotes may disprove some arguments, but they're arguments that nobody is actually making, except in the imagination anti-RKBA posters.)

See the difference?
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-11 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. No, it's not about whether the anecdote is "pro-gun" or "anti-gun"...
...it's about the nature of the claim being addressed.

As I said, anecdotal evidence cannot support a general claim, but it can disprove it. If someone were to claim that no concealed carry permit holder ever commits a violent offense with a firearm or suffers a negligent discharge in public (and that therefore CCW permit holders present no threat at all to public safety), a single anecdotal example of a CCW permit holder committing an assaultive shooting or causing a negligent discharge in public would be sufficient to prove that claim false. That would be an example of perfectly legitimate use of an "anti-gun" anecdote.

Problem is, nobody on this forum has, to the best of my recollection, ever made such a claim. The claim has been made that CCW permit holders are less likely--much less likely--than the general public to commit violent offenses (or otherwise misuse their firearms to jeopardize public safety), but implicit in that claim is the acknowledgement that some CCW permit holders will do so. So when anecdotal evidence is presented of CCW permit holders committing violent or other offenses against the person with their firearms, all the poster is doing is making a point that the pro-RKBA types on this forum have already acknowledged, and does not contradict their claim that the overwhelming majority of CCW permit holders do not form a threat to public safety. Or at least, do not form a threat to public safety as a result of carrying a firearm in public.

Conversely, if a pro-RKBA poster were to claim that an armed private citizen will, if present at the scene, stop a violent crime in progress all or most of the time, anecdotes of armed private citizens successfully doing so do not prove this claim, because these anecdotes only prove that these outcomes happen some--i.e. more than none--of the time, but not how much more than none.

But again, to the best of my recollection, nobody on this forum has ever made such a claim, though here it does behoove me to point out that there is a possibility for misunderstanding due to the ambiguous nature of the word "could," as in, "if an armed CCW permit holder had been present in Norris Hall, that person could have stopped Cho from killing as many people as he did." This sentence can be interpreted to mean "the armed private citizen would have been able to successfully stop Cho"; such an assertion would insupportable, and it has to be noted, in the context of this elaboration, that anecdotal counter-examples of mass shootings where an armed private citizen was present (or at least nearby) but failed to put a stop to the shooting (e.g. Tacoma Mall or Tucson) are valid evidence against such a claim.

However, the sentence can also mean "the possibility would have existed of such a person stopping Cho," as opposed to that possibility not existing during the half hour it took for the cops to breach the chains with which Cho had locked the outer doors to Norris Hall. Strictly speaking, the construction "might have been able to stop Cho" would better convey the acknowledgement of uncertainty of the outcome, but "could have" does a better job of conveying the contrast with the actual situation, which is that, disarmed, nobody was able to stop Cho. Bottom line is that it's not grammatically incorrect to say "could have" rather than "might have been able to," because "could have" ≠ "would have."

The possible role of armed private citizens in mass shootings is tricky to resolve at present, because the fact is that mass shootings tend to occur in locations where private citizens are prohibited--either by law or by the property owner's rules--from carrying firearms. While I've repeatedly pointed out on this forum that correlation ≠ causation, I don't think I'm making a huge leap by asserting that there is a causal relationship between those two facts, but I'll acknowledge that I don't know which way it runs: it's equally plausible that malls, schools, workplaces, etc. ban guns because mass shootings tend to take place in such locations as it is that mass shootings take place in such places because the prospective victims will be unarmed, or even that the two effects feed off each other like two serpents swallowing each others' tails. Be that as it may, it's pretty evident that declaring certain locations "gun free zones" has done exactly bugger-all to stop premeditated mass shootings (as if there were any other kind) while ensuring that the shooter generally won't face any effective resistance until the cops arrive and get themselves organized.

Be that as it may, the posting of anecdotal instances of armed private citizens successfully preventing the completion of violent crimes does effectively contradict the It-Stands-To-Reason speculative arguments that armed private citizens can never be effective in such situations. And please don't insult my intelligence by pretending such claims are made, or at least insinuated, on this forum.
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just55650 Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-11 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. +1
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DWC Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-11 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. In the real world...
Even getting a hair cut can be turned into a life threatening situation by predatory criminals.

CCW's actions deserve an A++.

Semper Fi,
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