Suggestion for the J/PS forum...

I've posted this in Ask the Admins - a couple of regulars (iverglas and Superfly) have PM'd me to support it, but if anyone else has any polite opinions, feel free to discuss it here...

"Do you think there's any mileage in separating "guns" and "gun rights" and "RKBA" issues from the rest of J/PS topics and into a separate forum, perhaps as a sub-forum of J/PS?

I think that a similar thing was done for Israeli/Palestine "discussions", where they're separate from either LBN or Foreign Policy.

The thing is, J/PS is ALWAYS full of gun threads (both pro and anti, whatever that means) and I'm sure that it puts a lot of DUers off posting in there. It would be great to get some sensible debate re: prison, sentencing, rehabilitation, SUVs vs "normal cars" etc. etc., but it's not going to happen when J/PS is full of gun stories that are constantly KICKED back to the top due to personal arguments.

I'm sure that a lot of DUers stay away from J/PS because they know it's just one long argument about the RKBA, which will never be resolved. It's the same thing every day....

Not that I don't enjoy it, but it seems to me that there's no point having a J/PS forum if it's only used to talk about guns by about 10 people.

Just a thought.

P."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x16467

...to ignore a thread?

As would be clear to anyone with a brain, I'm not saying that I don't like discussing the gun issues - clearly I do, I waste my life in here.

What I am saying is that there are many other Justice and Public Safety issues that ought to be discussed in here but which aren't, and I believe that this is because this place is infamous as the Gun Dungeon, rather than a haven of enlightened debate.

People just know not to come in here for a proper debate, so they don't bother, and that just means we lost the opportunity for us (and other DUers) to hold meaningful discussions on other topics.

If I hit ignore on all the gun threads in here, I'd be left with 2 threads with about 10 posts between them. I can't believe that this is the entire contribution of DUers to J/PS issues.

I think RKBA issues should go in the Civil Rights forum. But that's just me.

As it is we work guns into every thread in the Gungeon. I would rather discussion in CR be weapon free.

and in today's economy, you take what you can get.

and the pay here, great!

I have words for you, son, and well, I can't say them... :evilgrin:

the work won't be pretty, but you can drink all the beer you can get your hands on.

:scared:

That was relatively gun-free. One person got a couple gun jabs in, but for the most part it was gun-free.

:-( I still fully support the removal of all federal restrictions on lawn darts, by the way.

ROFLMAO!

:yourock:

I didn't even know they were "banned" until your thread on them. I just thought it was an 80's trend that just died out! I find it unbelievably humorous that the gov't actually went to lengths to ban "LAWN DARTS!".

on the consumer safety folks. It could be argued that Jarts don't kill people, people kill people, but that sounds pretty lame.

But what the hell, I kind of enjoyed it.

I think RKBA issues should go in the trash heap. But that's just me.

:-)

In the very beginning we were overrun by posters who were organizing attacks from a couple of pro-gun websites, which I don't think exist any more. At one point we even had a special forum just for the right-wingers, before we thought to ourselves, "why the hell are we providing a place for these idiots to promote Bush and trash liberals?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=16500#16504

I happen to think he's wrong about the "in the very beginning" and "I don't think exist anymore" parts, though.

I agree with the initial suggestion, that J/PS would be improved for discussions of other justice and public safety issues, and probably get more traffic from regular (as opposed to single-issue) DUers if the gun fetishists had their own separate forum to brag about the latest additions to their personal arsenals, whine about wanting bayonet attachments (for target practice at the range and game hunting, of course ;-)), etc.

roll the gun issue into General Discussion.

who want to split guns out of J/PS.

it would remain under J/PS but be a sub-forum exclusively set-aside for this topic.

The problem is that this isn't a J/PS forum at the moment, it's a gun forum.

P.

out of J/PS. Less clicking.

but I don't see what's stopping people from starting threads on subjects other than guns and ignoring the gun threads if they prefer. I can only support the idea if the new forum/sub-forum is officially called the Gungeon or the Gun Dungeon.

Regarding prisons, rehabilatation, etc. anyway. J/PS is actully pretty slow moving. We can have a weeks worth of threads on one page alone. Move the RKBA threads and J/PS would probably just die.

It's not like all of the gun threads are pushing reasonable discussion off the front page.

here. Or, a quick look and they run back to the safe confines of I/P. Some folks, and please, RKBA and Pro GC bear with me, as I know this is an alien concept, don't even want to look at discussions of guns.

And, we are known somewhat as a combative groop. Face it, we have a legend to maintain down here and ya'll are doing a bang up job.

the Gungeon - scariing the timid away from serious discussion of non-gun related Justice since 2002

all the discussion of guns just clears out the lightweights. We're probably better off without them.

:eyes:

Why is it that anything (or at least the vast majority of) firearms related posted in GD or the Lounge gets moved to J/PS? I realize there are specific issue related forums, but I often see gun related posts bumped to J/PS that would be just as fine (or appropriate), where they were originally posted. Just wondering, where is that line drawn?
Anything with the word "gun", "firearms", "assault weapons", "NRA"?

I have mixed feelings about a separate "Gun Dungeon" sub-forum. One, it's not my website so the admins can do anything they want (such is the internet). Two, anyone posting or lurking on DU has that same freedom to ignore or contribute to a discussion. If people want to discuss things here or avoid it, then fine; that's their option.
Three, my personal opinion is that that it's a misguided attempt at hiding something that shouldn't be encouraged or talked about by "Progressives, Liberals or Democacts"... sort of like hiding the crazy Aunt/Uncle in the attic... we're here, we're armed, get used to it.
why shove (hide) all the pro-gun advocates into a closet? Finally, there are a few regular posters in J/PS that cannot fathom or understand why a Democrat or liberal would be supportive of firearms ownership by law abiding citizens. Like it or not, the fact is we do exist! Creating a sub-forum is another excuse for denial.

with only 10 people on it, we know each other so well....it's like we are family, except we treat each other like dog sh!t:)

I say keep it how it is.

... why anyone would think it is *not* a good idea. Or why anyone who didn't specifically think it was a good idea would care.

Anyone who wants to talk nothing but guns guns guns would be entirely free to do so, in the subforum.

Anyone who wanted to discuss criminal law and justice, prisons, and whatever other important issues might come under "justice/public safety" would be entirely free to do so, and at a pace more similar to what's found in other issue forums.

We all know that this place is the cesspool of DU, and what normal people say when it's suggested that they contribute here. There would still be a cesspool available, but there'd be light and air for anyone who found it more conducive to thought.

.

And i was going to buy you a drink in Paris, I'm crushed.

Everyone is free to discuss criminal law and justice, prisons, and whatever other important issues might come under "justice/public safety" right now.

There is plenty of "light and air" for people now. As has been mentioned, this is hardly a fast moving forum. It usually takes a few days, at least, for a thread to be pushed off of the front page.

"Mr. X" doesn't think something is necessary or a good idea, ergo he thinks that those who do should not get it.

And when the "Mr. X"s are on what they perceive as the other end of that stick -- ??

I thought that in a matter that didn't concern one, one ought to have something like a reason for opposing what the people whom it does concern want.

I've yet to see a reason for opposing the hiving off of this forum. Just a few people who claim not to think it's necessary to do, and to conclude from that that it shouldn't be done.

And yes. Cesspool. Ask a few normal people.

.

"I thought that in a matter that didn't concern one, one ought to have something like a reason for opposing what the people whom it does concern want."

because we post here.

Alright, here's a practical reason for me to oppose making a gun sub-forum in j/ps: It will take an extra click for me to get here which costs me time and energy and DU bandwidth.

If the suggested gun forum becomes its own forum out on the main page, well then my objection will no longer be valid and I will return to my former ambivalent feelings on the subject.

"I've yet to see a reason for opposing the hiving off of this forum. Just a few people who claim not to think it's necessary to do, and to conclude from that that it shouldn't be done."

I haven't seen a reason for hiving off this forum. No one is stopping people from posting here on subjects other than guns.


"And yes. Cesspool. Ask a few normal people."

I'm normal and I don't think it's a cesspool.

Normal people that is.

BTW let me show you how that 'hide thread' function works someday

"Normal" or your interpretation of it in relation to firearms ownership.

Look at yourself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x50260#50370

"Everybody oughta be required to do everything the way you think it oughta be done -- is that it? I have to assume that is exactly what you think,"

What is not "normal" about a person being interested in owning and shooting firearms?

Why is J/PS a "cesspool"? Your long-winded contributions haven't helped matters now have they?

There are two sides to every story. If JP/S is a "cesspool" as you say, just use your search feature and figure out where the majority of the "Deleted Message/Name Removed" posts come from... it's not that difficult.

What is not "normal" about a person being interested in owning and shooting firearms?

Why ask me? Why not ask someone who might have said something resembling that?

Why is J/PS a "cesspool"? Your long-winded contributions haven't helped matters now have they?

Are you saying that you agree that J/PS is a cesspool, and that the reason is my posts? Well you take that thesis and run with it, if you think it makes sense; no concern of mine, and nothing to do with anything I think.

If JP/S is a "cesspool" as you say, just use your search feature and figure out where the majority of the "Deleted Message/Name Removed" posts come from... it's not that difficult.

Once again, if you're saying that J/PS is a cesspool, and that the reason is the source of those posts, you take that thesis and run with it. Nothing to do with anything I think.

It just might be certain other posts, that are *not* deleted, that make the place a cesspool, to my mind.

.

Excusez-moi?

that folks don't contribute down here (to non-gun topics) because they find the gun conversation overwhelming is a valid issue and should be reconsidered.

I see lots of folks saying we're not a fast moving forum. Fair enough. Ever hear of cause and effect? Might it be because the general tone gets rough and folks won't come here to discuss non-gun stuff?

There is a militancy to some of our posters - its a style that is noted outside of the Gungeon when Sam or I forget to lock the door and one of you slips out into the main forums :). What washes here doesn't always wash out on the main boards.

And, of course, it could be because we have (had, in the past) more than our share of conservative disrupters who only come in for the gun fun - ya think?

but I wish you guys would slip a bit more often. I like when a gun thread starts up in GD. It's a nice change of pace. Also, there are some reasonable people up there, not that there aren't any down here.

:)

not my turf. We try to give some of you day passes now and again...

O8)

It just occurred to me that I totally misread your post.

"There is a militancy to some of our posters - its a style that is noted outside of the Gungeon when Sam or I forget to lock the door and one of you slips out into the main forums . What washes here doesn't always wash out on the main boards."

I don't know. I've seen some threads up in Campaign 2004 and even in GD that make the dungeon look tame. The 350+ post slavery thread comes to mind and there seem to be a bunch of threads on homophobia or something today. It's probably due to the higher volume of posts, but you see all kinds of personal attacks that slip by and sometimes people are just plain mean. That kind of stuff would never fly down here in the dungeon.

My suspicion is that it's easier for Lunabush to spot rule-infringements in here than it is for the GD mods to spot them in GD.

There are fewer posters in here, but we make up for it by posting LOTS! I'm sure that we must be amongst the most prolific posters on DU, but it often ends in a to-and-fro battle between two people, each flinging harsh words. In GD there are lots of people making lots of random points on lots of threads all over the place.

In GD, I reckon that most deletions occur due to Alerts, whereas in here I believe that Lunabush can spot an argument brewing from a mile away and keep an eye on it.

Just because it hasn't been deleted from GD yet it doesn't mean that it's being allowed.

Please note, this is not me saying, "I'm right and you're all wrong (except in a couple of cases)", this is me attempting to clear up any misconceptions for why I'd want this to happen, or a misunderstanding of the consequences:

"How hard is it to hit ignore?"

Not exactly constructive - my point is that if you ignore all the gun threads in here you are left with about 2 threads with 10 comments between them. DUers know that, and those who are interested in civil rights other than guns, or prison reform etc., realise that there is no point in coming in here.

"I think RKBA issues should go in the Civil Rights forum. But that's just me."

I think Lunabush answered this point and I agree with him. Given that we manage to keep an entire forum going almost solely on this point, I think that moving the RKBA into Civil Rights would clog it up unnecessarily. Keeping it in this forum enables us to focus on it more clearly and in the context of other gun-related topics.

"what's stopping people from starting threads on subjects other than guns and ignoring the gun threads if they prefer. I can only support the idea if the new forum/sub-forum is officially called the Gungeon or the Gun Dungeon."

Part 1 - what's stopping people is that a lot of DUers don't even want to come in here to post, because they KNOW that this place is 99% about guns, and other topics barely get noticed. DUers with an interest in Justice/PS generally don't start or contribute towards discussions in here, because they know that there are only a handful of people who regularly post here, and they're chiefly concerned about guns.

Part 2 - I have no problem with this, i.e. having a sub-forum of J/PS called the Gun Dungeon, but it would need to be subtitled with something more descriptive. However, I expect that the admins would want a less controversial/threatening title - it's not their job to set up a private Gun Dungeon for us, and that kind of title is likely to put off EVEN MORE DUers...but that's just my opinion and I'm not too worried about it.

"Why is it that anything (or at least the vast majority of) firearms related posted in GD or the Lounge gets moved to J/PS?"

I suspect that this is because the Mods/Admins are only too well aware of what happens when any sort of gun thread starts, i.e. it turns into a slanging match between the die-hards from each "side". However, LBN and "comedy" Lounge stories seem to stay where they are.

"...my personal opinion is that that it's a misguided attempt at hiding something that shouldn't be encouraged or talked about"

I don't think that it would mean we were hiding anything - quite the opposite. It would be giving guns/RKBA/etc. it's very own forum with it's very own title where the sole topic of discussion would be guns and related things. There aren't many small topics on DU that get their own forum!

"But then we would lose the personal feelings of this forum..."

No we wouldn't. At the moment I genuinely believe that discussion of non-gun J/PS topics is stifled on DU, primarily because the J/PS forum has become a no-go area for anyone who isn't interested in guns. I have NEVER seen a topic other than guns receive anything more than passing interest in this forum, whereas even the stupidest gun comment will create a monster thread.

IMHO, the only way to sort this out is to either:

- restrict the number of gun discussions in J/PS and do a publicity campaign on DU to get more people in here to post on other topics, or
- give guns it's own forum, freeing up J/PS for other topics

If we take the first option then this place does indeed lose its "personal feeling", as our own rabid comments are diluted by the sanity of newcomers. If we take the 2nd option then we have our "own" space to talk about the gun-related topics, which would be even more "personal" than here.

Of course, I do concede that we might start off with a very empty J/PS forum but I believe that it would develop quickly.

I am tempted to see about banning you from this forum. You make WAY too much sense. Excellent discussion - and from this post I can't tell which side of the coin you are on. Nothing to add.

:P

for my appalling misuse of the possessive apostrophe in my response to your responses?

Fear not - I am about to take myself outside and kick my own ass!

P.

"Part 1 - what's stopping people is that a lot of DUers don't even want to come in here to post, because they KNOW that this place is 99% about guns, and other topics barely get noticed. DUers with an interest in Justice/PS generally don't start or contribute towards discussions in here, because they know that there are only a handful of people who regularly post here, and they're chiefly concerned about guns.

Part 2 - I have no problem with this, i.e. having a sub-forum of J/PS called the Gun Dungeon, but it would need to be subtitled with something more descriptive. However, I expect that the admins would want a less controversial/threatening title - it's not their job to set up a private Gun Dungeon for us, and that kind of title is likely to put off EVEN MORE DUers...but that's just my opinion and I'm not too worried about it."

Well, to be honest, I'm still pretty ambivalent toward the whole thing. If they did decide to do it, I'd prefer a new forum on the front page for mostly selfish reasons. It would take less clicking to navigate around.

"Gun Dungeon" doesn't seem all that controversial. It's definitely more entertaining than just "Guns" or something. It's probably better than "The Cesspool" as far as controversy goes. Although I kind of like that one.

I was also thinking if the new forum were in the lobby, it should be put way down at the bottom, underneath the Bugs/Features forum. Then we could nickname it the ass end of DU. Not that I'm saying the Bugs/Features forum is the ass end of DU or anything.

I have to admit, I don't venture into this forum very often because most of the threads are gun- or RKBA related, and I just don't feel strongly enough about either issue to spend much time perusing the threads here. I realize it's a slow-moving forum, so that it's not necessarily a case of the gun threads pushing the others off the front page, but the sheer number of gun threads I see most times I click on the forum does discourage me from spending much time here. And yes, I am aware of the hide thread button mentioned upthread, but I still feel that this forum would be more user-friendly for everyone if the gun threads had their own sub-forum; much easier not to have to "hide" three-fourths of the threads on a page.

Of course, it's not guaranteed that more discussion on other public safety topics would immediately spring up here; but, FWIW, I did start visiting the Foreign Affairs forum more after a similar split occurred over there (placing the I/P threads in a subforum). I know I'm only one person, but perhaps others share my experience.