No Israeli Govt Has Offered Equal Rights to Palestinians

Full Title:No US-Backed Israeli Government Has Offered Equal Rights to Palestinians



Dr. Ilan Pappe is a senior lecturer of Political Science at Haifa University and the Academic Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva. His recent books include The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1948-1951 (New York, 1992) and The Israel/Palestine Question (London, 1999).

?? :shrug: ??

but let an Iranian spout some crazy crap and its
132 replies ....

"No Israeli Govt Has Offered Equal Rights to Palestinians"

he writes:

This perception of Israel as an aggressive relic of a colonialist past is widespread in the Muslim world.


and thats is why the war continues....israel remains an unacceptable entity. If you accept that premise than you realize that israels mere existance is the problem, no matter what israel does, outside of suicide, nothing will bring peace (of course nor will that for the jews...)

so you still support the article?

:)

I'm one of those replies...

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x102985#103180

or GWB for that matter ....?

The interesting things about Iran are:

1.) This clown feels secure in running his mouth like that. It
is ordinarily only the Western press that feels free to talk
about the 2nd and 3rd world that way.

2.) This despite the continuing fuss over Iran's nuclear ambitions.

3.) The Western press chose to translate and amplify his remarks,
and is likewise making threats and casting aspersions.

The US is dealing with Iraq and Afghanistan - where destabilization seems to be the goal - I do have to wonder about Israel/Palestine.

Could they REALLY not find a way to encourage more harmony/less chaos?

It sure seems like they could to me.

As much as I wish the Palestinians had a state of their own, the sad truth is that Palestinian women will get the short end of the stick from their own people.

Let's be honest here, the fact is that the brand of Islam that is taking hold across the Middle East is misogynist and homophobic to the max.

Blaming Israel for the woes of the Palestinians is historically inaccurate and, quite frankly, pure poppycock.

The Palestinians should take a good look at their Arab friends and ask them why they were never allowed to be assimilated into their societies, why were they always kept in refugee camps, etc.

For all the mistakes Israel has made in her dealing with the Palestinians, one cannot forget the shameless way in which Arab governments have used the Palestinians for their own purposes.

With ALL your points. :)

"Blaming Israel for the woes of the Palestinians is historically inaccurate and, quite frankly, pure poppycock."

something I'd expect from drdon or mister peace wall(Jim Sagle)

but from you, I'm disapointed

posters, we also have "Palestinians-can-do-no-wrong" and "Palestinians-are-always-the-victim" posters.

A fair and balanced view of the Middle East, and I don't mean it in the way Newscorp uses that phrase, forces us to remove our rose colored glasses about the different players in this sad and prolonged conflict. Hatred of Jews predates the creation of the State of Israel. Those that we refer to as Palestinians nowadays, were the poor and dispossessed that were exploited and abused long before there was an Israel to blame for their woes.

There are 3 factors that prevent us from dealing constructively with the IP conflict. One is the shameful and criminal role the United States has often played in the Middle East, the other is the equally shameful role of the Arab nations in fostering the IP conflict, and lastly, the threat posed to Israel and Palestinians by the rise of religious ideologues in their midst.

The IP conflict reminds me of that classic Star Trek episode starring the late Frank Gorshing, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Here is the synopsis of that fantastic and highly relevant to IP episode, a story that deals with two beings having only one thing in common: the hatred each felt for the other.

Synopsis

The U.S.S. Enterprise intercepts a stolen Federation shuttlecraft which contains a humanoid named Lokai. Taken aboard the ship, Lokai tells the crew he is from the planet Cheron, and asks for asylum on the U.S.S. Enterprise. His most distinctive feature is that he is half black and half white, starkly separated down the middle of his body.

The U.S.S. Enterprise tracks another vessel, pursuing at great speed. The ship's only passenger beams on board and is discovers to be another humanoid from Cheron. The difference in this man, Bele, is that his black and white skin is reversed from Lokai's. Bele claims to be Cheron's chief officer sent out to bring in political traitors, and has been pursuing Lokai. The more the two men are aboard the starship, the more Kirk realizes that the basic problem between them — and their entire race, apparently — is their opposite color. Tiring of their bigotry, Kirk decides to ignore the two guests and concentrate on his original mission; to decontaminate the planet Ariannus, plagued with a bacteria that endangers billions of lives.

When Bele takes control of the U.S.S. Enterprise in a desperate attempt, Kirk sets the ships auto-destruct sequence instead of allowing the hijacking to continue, and the alien returns command to the captain. However, once planet Ariannus is decontaminated, Bele takes back his control over the starship and leads it back to Cheron. What they find is a long-dead planet, annihilated by their interracial bigotry. Lokai beams down to the surface to escape Bele, who follows. The U.S.S. Enterprise leaves them on the surface, to decide their own fates.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68800.html

...that a comment like "Blaming Israel for the woes of the Palestinians is historically inaccurate and, quite frankly, pure poppycock." is in danger of falling into the former category. Any analysis of the conflict that doesn't, apart from putting blame on a multitude of parties and events, absolves Israel of any blame, is totally inaccurate and would easily constitute poppycock. Also, saying on the one hand that Israel's made 'mistakes', but then on the other hand using all sorts of superlatives to express outrage over the actions of other parties isn't displaying any sort of fair and balanced outlook. It translates as 'Israel makes mistakes, but everyone else does evil, scumbag things that aren't mistakes.'

My reading of yr comment may have been coloured by the constant recent attempts by one poster to paint the Jaffa riots of 1921 as terrorism where the only victims were Jews, when in fact innocent Arab residents of Jaffa, including a mother and her child, were victims as well. If yr intent wasn't to portray Israel as blameless in the conflict, you've got my apologies...

Violet...

and I've seen that Star Trek episode, one of my favorites

"shameful and criminal role the United States has often played in the Middle East,.." don't forget Britain and Europe

"Palestinians nowadays, were the poor and dispossessed that were exploited and abused long before there was an Israel to blame for their woes." yes

they were stabbed in the back by Britain

and left hanging by their Arab brothers

but my opinion is Israel is still their main problem.

they could do without Hamas and Hezbolla too

totally different idea of where the balance lies, imo, so sometimes even our best efforts don't seem to be enough.

and, in response to your comments:
<snip>
There are 3 factors that prevent us from dealing constructively with the IP conflict. One is the shameful and criminal role the United States has often played in the Middle East, the other is the equally shameful role of the Arab nations in fostering the IP conflict, and lastly, the threat posed to Israel and Palestinians by the rise of religious ideologues in their midst.<unsnip>

It is so ironic, that the BEST thing that could be done to obviate the threat of which you speak in that last item, would be to find a solution to the Pal/Isr conflict. Do Islamic religious ideologues too often become so because of the dearth of successful alternatives? Why not let the Pals become that alternative? To have a successful Palestinian secular state, fully supported by the United States, now THAT would be a way of combatting the spread of hatred by ObL and the ObL wannabes.

OK, so I'm a dreamer.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Gandi

The way the American, British, and Dutch mineral exploiters, hand in glove with House of Saud, stole the mineral wealth birthright of the Arab proletariat -- and wasted it on frivolous and extravagant play things -- only helping their Arab brothers (the Palestinians) through questionable Wahabi charities - that gave significant aid and comfort to the terrorists.

You an call me what you want - I've been in the "energy industry" for 30+ years.

who would prefer the Israeli Occupation to fighting for her rights within a democratic Palestine.

Don't use Islam as an excuse to deprive people of their right to self-determination.

Now THAT is poppycock!

secular women (christians included) who would prefer the hamas and their official version of their govt style over the israeli occupation......

all of a sudden its not so black and white.....whats prefered: secular occupation from a foreign force or terror from within ones own population.....including "morality laws".....

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pray tell?

who regard the Israelis as the worst choice...

Don't kid yourself, Pelsar. The Israeli occupation of the WB and Gaza, with its murder of adults and children, land and property expropriation, administrative detention, home demolition and "collaboratorization" of Palestinian youth is one the last century's UGLIEST chapters.

...Israel having a gay dude in Knesset doesn't make their boot one iota less painful.

Don't kid yourself.

Show you a Palestinian woman....? Here's a few but they are dead now

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=7354&CategoryId=2

“Honor Killings” Must be Stopped
Date posted: May 03, 2005
By MIFTAH
In the past week, three horrific incidents took place in the Palestinian Territories, which included physical violence as well as “honor killings” against innocent Palestinian women. MIFTAH, as an organization dedicated to promoting the rule of law, public accountability and promotion of women’s civil and political rights, strongly condemns the recent targeting of women by their family members.

In east Jerusalem yesterday, Israeli police were informed by a father that his two daughters were found strangled to death in their homes in the Jabal Al Mukaber area. It is suspected that the two women were killed for the sake of upholding the family’s “honor.” This incident was not a unique occurrence; it was preceded by the beating to death of Faten Habash, a resident of Ramallah, by her father, in what is believed to be the result of repeated bashes to her head with an iron bar. Here too, the justification seems to be “honor killing,” it was reported that the incident happened when Faten Habash returned to her family house from hospital, where she had spent a period of time recovering from a broken pelvis and various other injuries resulting from an earlier beating by her father and other family members. The reason for this violence? Faten's insistence to marry a man of which her parents did not approve.

These two incidents should act as an eye opener to the Palestinian National Authority in particular and civil society at large, but also to those portions of Palestinian society that promote and advocate the inhumane and senseless policy of “honor killing” and haphazard violence against women.

Violence against women in the Arab world and for that matter in the developing world, is an in-house phenomenon, which means that such incidents happen on a daily basis with only a few incidents being reported on a very ad hoc basis. MIFTAH reiterates its call for these acts of violence against women to be addressed more prominently and with far more forceful measures than what is being done at the moment.

snip

Case Study:
"Honour" Killings
and Blood Feuds Focus (3): Palestine/Israel

"Honour" killings are also regularly reported in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In the Canadian women's magazine Chatelaine, Sally Armstrong described the fate of one victim:


Flirting was a costly mistake for Samera. She was only 15 years old when her neighbours in Salfeet, a small Palestinian town on the West Bank, saw her chatting with a young man without a male chaperone. Her family's honour was at stake; a marriage was quickly arranged. By 16, she had a child. Five years later, when she could stand the bogus marriage no longer, she bolted. In a place where gossip is traded like hard currency, and a girl's chastity is as public as her name, Samera's actions were considered akin to making a date with the devil. According to the gossips, she went from man to man as she moved from place to place. Finally, last July <1999>, her family caught up with her. A few days later she was found stuffed down a well. Her neck had been broken. Her father told the coroner she'd committed suicide. But everyone on the grapevine knew that Samera was a victim of honour killing, murdered by her own family because her actions brought dishonour to their name. ... Here in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority law allows honour killing. Samera's parents are walking the streets of their neighbourhood with their heads held high, relieved that the family honour has been restored. (Armstrong, "Honour's Victims", Chatelaine, March 2000.)

Twenty-two other women died in the Palestinian territories in the same year as Samera. The killings often spill over into neighbouring Israel, as with the killing of "40-year-old Ittihaj Hassoon" near Haifa in 1995:


On Oct. 16, 1995, ... Hassoon got out of a car with her younger brother on a main street of Daliat al Carmel, a small Israeli Druze village ... Over 10 years before, Ittihaj had committed the unpardonable sin of marrying a non-Druze man. Now, after luring her back to her home village with promises that all was forgiven and her safety assured, her brother finally had the chance to publicly cleanse the blot on the family name with the spilling of her blood. In broad daylight in front of witnesses, he pulled out a knife and began to stab her. The witnesses quickly swelled to a crowd of more than 100 villagers who -- approving, urging him on -- chanted, ululated, danced in the street. Within minutes, Hassoon lay dead on the ground while the crowd cheered her killer, "Hero, hero! You are a real man!" (Suzanne Zima, "When Brothers Kill Sisters," The Gazette , April 17, 1999. See also Walter Rodgers, "Honor Killings: A Brutal Tribal Custom", CNN World News, December 7, 1995.)

According to Zima, "Ibrahim had agonized over his decision: 'She is my sister -- my flesh and blood -- I am a human being. I didn't want to kill her. I didn't want to be in this situation. They push me to make this decision. I know what they expect from me. If I do this, they look at me like a hero, a clean guy, a real man. If I don't kill my sister, the people would look at me like I am a small person.'"
http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

http://www.birzeit.edu/news/news-d?news_id=105266
snip
"There were a number of other violations against women taking place as well including locking girls up to isolate them from the society, forcing women who are raped to marry their attackers and threatening women’s lives, forcing them to live a life full of fear and anxiety.

The legal aspects of the topic were discussed by Advocate Halima Abu Asab who explained that the law for the most part attempts to limit public freedoms and women’s rights including the right to life and the right to choose.
snip

Finally, Officer Abdel Jabbar ended his speech by emphasizing that tribal law and backward tradition rampant in Palestine are one of the main obstacles to upholding the rule of law and women’s rights.

Ms. Wedad Barghouthi spoke about the role of the media in addressing women’s issues, criticizing the lack of freedom of expression in Palestinian society. She stated that the role of the media is inadequate in dealing with various violations against women including the crime of honor killing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1512394,00.html
"snip
Maher Shakirat summoned three of his sisters to discuss a family uproar after one of them, Rudaina, was thrown out by her husband for an alleged affair. Maher listened to Rudaina's denials, and her sisters' pleas that they were not covering up the affair. Then he forced the three women to drink bleach before strangling Rudaina, who was eight months pregnant. The other sisters tried to flee but Maher caught and strangled Amani, 20. The third, Leila, escaped but was badly injured by the bleach
snip
The murders of Faten Habash and the Shakirat sisters last month were the latest in a series of brutal "honour killings" that have shaken the Palestinian community over recent weeks. The deaths have prompted demands for a change to laws inherited from the days of Jordanian rule that deem all women to be "minors" under the authority of male relatives and that provide a maximum of six months in prison for killings in defence of "family honour."

But those calls have met with resistance in parliament where religious Palestinian MPs argue that reform will lead to a collapse in the moral fabric of society. According to the Palestinian women's affairs ministry, 20 girls and women were murdered in honour killings last year and about 50 committed suicide - often under coercion - for "shaming" the family through sex outside marriage, refusing an arranged marriage or seeking a divorce. Another 15 women survived attempts to kill them.

The ministry says that dozens of other killings are covered up each year. "We had one woman of 26 who was certified as dying of old age," said Maha Abu Dayyeh Shamas, director of the Women's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling. "Putting 'falling into well' on the death certificate is very common. We find that the women were strangled and then dumped in the well."

raped and killed by Palestinian men as I have shown in these above stories would all prefer the Israelis if they had ever been given a choice. There is nothing even approaching human rights for women in Palestinian society from divorce law on down. I wonder, for example, how many are committing suicide every year to get away from the wife-beater husbands. How many atrocities against women aren't even being reported. The one story I linked clearly stated the Palestinian legislature won't do anything about these human rights violations because the Islam religious don't want the fabric of society changed. It needs to be changed significantly.
The deck of cards is stacked against Palestinian women from the day they are born. There is terrible violence by Palestinian men against the women. How any progressive can support this violence is beyond me.

And that aint poppycock!

against women everywhere. Palestinians don't have a corner on that market. Nor do you have the slightest clue as to what was going on in the minds of these women. Using their deaths in this manner is nothing short of morbid and insulting to their families. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Surely you are not trying to suggest these murder victims agreed with being murdered. That they wanted bleach forced down their throats, that they wanted to be beaten or raped or locked up. This stuff has to come out, it has to be publicized or nothing will ever change there.

Why the heck do you think they were holding a conference on it at the university. Why do you want this sick bullshit to be swept under the rug? You should be ashamed of yourself.

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I will fight violence against women whereever I see it. I will make it known. And it has nothing to do with necro anything.
Adios

It's just that I would have expected after taking the moral high ground with 'I will fight violence against women wherever I see it' that I would have seen posts displaying such a sentiment in other forums at DU where violence against women is discussed...

Violet...

Some societies are much worse than others in regard to violence against women, wouldn't you agree? Oh and Violet, my posts on women's issues have been on these boards. Have yours?

No, I never post anything about women's issues ;)

What he was suggesting was that there's something rather sick about speaking on behalf of dead women in order to further some political point. That's not sweeping anything under the rug. It's just the truth. It's one thing to speak out against this sort of violence, but quite another to use it in order to justify occupation of a people...

Violet...

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Which is why I've said what I had. As for my comment about justifying occupation, if it quacks like a duck.... 'I think the Palestinian women who are brutalized, beaten, raped and killed by Palestinian men as I have shown in these above stories would all prefer the Israelis if they had ever been given a choice.'

Instead you opted to say what you decided you'd like Palestinian women to think, regardless of whether it's the truth or not. Why on earth would they prefer the occupation to continue when all that means is double oppression via the occupation and gender based violence? Or are you claiming that under the occupation women aren't victims of this sort of violence?

This may come as a huge shock, but violence against women is way too prevalent in all societies. The answer to that violence isn't to support occupation by a foreign military power, but to work at addressing the root problems of the violence. But hell, let's not think at all about that and let's just demand that a country like Israel soon occupies Papua New Guinea so that we can also pretend that women there would prefer occupation to violence aimed at them by men...

Violet...

I could swear that was addressed in the articles. Maybe take another look at the articles where some of these root causes were addressed. Wow, we should look at root causes of violence against women, that's so eye-opening. There's only been thousands of books, essays, speeches, conferences, government studies, women's studies programs and degrees at so many universities, etc. about this for many, many decades around the world. Your other comments...um, off base and trying to shift? Instead of trying to shift the subject and bringing up little ol' places like Papua, maybe you'd want to stick with the point I made about the horrible violence against women in Palestinian society, often from their own families.

Yeah, that little 'ol place (it's larger than both Israel and the Occupied Territories, btw) where horrendous violence against women is common-place, and things like women being raped while they're in labor, and being raped by police when imprisoned happen on a way too sickening basis. I would have thought folk who fight violence against women wherever it is would have known about it, as Amnesty International has said a lot about it...

No offense, but I didn't waste my time reading any of those links...

I'm a bit confused here. You don't think people should waste their time trying to address the root causes of violence against women?

and of course find honor killings deplorable!

I think they that they are more like in a situation of internal chaos.

I would still hold any 99.99% of women in Palestine would prefer to have an independent nation over Israeli occupation.

Comparing "the occupation" to families that engage in honor killins is abusrd.

You think the occupation is "safe" for women? That's outrageous!

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. There is plenty of it right here!

in a couple of decades.

But Golda Mier was reported to have been negotiating a deal with King Hussein where the settlers could stay on the WB and/or Gaza as citizens of Palestine - or Jordan.

I think not! LOL!

The settlers who would be left behind would likely be the most aggressively anti-Palestinian Israelis on the political spectrum. They also have a long hated history together (settlers and WBers, that is.)

israeli arabs have stated quite loud and clear...they're not moving to any "palestenain state"...they prefer to live in israel.

that in itself speaks volumes......

Are you honestly stating that Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights with Jewish citizens?

we have much discrimination, just like many other democratic countries...in someways were better some ways were worse.

arabs have equal civil rights "on paper"...and we do have arab members of the knesset, arab citiizens in the judiciary, etc. Its not an "apartheid" type of discrimination, its more institutionalized....something that can be changed.

like many other countries were far from perfect...but we better than most countries in civil law, citizens rights etc.....and that includes all of our "non jewish citizens.

since nothing works in a vacuum, if one wants to show how bad it is to be an arab in israel, it would be relevant to show how it is to be a jew or christian in an arab country...saudi arabia, egypt, sudan, etc..when seen in the light of the real world, israeli arabs are part and parcel of the israeli landscape....with all the problems that comes from being a minority.

my comment about israeli arabs living within palesetine is exactly that...they feel far more secure living in the "jewish state" than living in palestenian palestine. Where as many identify with the palestenains and help them, send money etc...they 're dont have plans to move there.

every once in a while, someone raises the idea a land swap where settlement concentrations become part of Israel while Israeli areas with a large Arab population would become part of a Palestinian state. These proposals are invariably met with protests from the Israeli Arabs involved.

expect long-time residents of say, Shefa Amr, to up and swap land in the stony hills outside Nablus, or Hebron.

Under these proposals, the residents would remain exactly as they are now - the border would be moved so that that territory they would be included in a Palestinian state.

Villages like Shefa Amr are right outside Haifa!?

these proposals included all of Israel's Arabs.

Now mind you, most of these haven't gotten as far as being formal proposals; for the most part, a member of the government or Knesset suggests simething of the kind, there are protests, and then the idea is abandoned (until next time).

As for links, I'm afraid I didn't keep the links at the time, but here are a couple of examples:



The Hell of Israel Is Better than the Paradise of Arafat (Yeah, I know, Daniel Pipes, but still)

Other artciles I could't find online:

"Some Arabs Prefer an Israeli-Run Jerusalem" (Jul 25, 2000)

"PM nixes moving Israeli Arab villages to a Palestinan state" Haaretz (Feb 25, 2004)