The subconscious of anti-Semitism

A century ago, Vienna Chief Rabbi Moritz Guedemann, a liberal, educated man, explained that anti-Semitism derives from the psychological tension created within Christianity by its relations with Judaism.

Using the vocabulary of Sigmund Freud, who lived in the same city and period, Guedemann analyzed the "subconscious" of the anti-Semitism that prevailed in Vienna in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. "The Christian kneels before a Jew's image, rubs his hands before a Jewess' (Mary) image, Jesus' apostles are Jews and so are the psalms he recites. Only few would be capable of overcoming these contrasts, and most of them seek to relieve the tension by means of anti-Semitic acts. Since they are obliged to worship a Jew as a god, they take revenge on the rest of the Jews, whom they describe as sons of Satan."

It was only in 1965, 20 years after the Holocaust, that the Catholic Church begin to deal seriously with the anti-Semitic components at the center of Christian theology. Today in Rome and next week at the President's residence in Jerusalem and in dozens of events throughout the world, Jews and Catholics will mark the 40th anniversary of the Vatican's adoption of Nostra Aetate (In Our Time), the landmark document that launched a new relationship between the Church and the Jewish people.

The Vatican's declaration on the relationship of the Church with non-Christian religions established for the first time, following a historic gathering of the Vatican Council, that the Jews must be exonerated of the charge of deicide and that incitement against them must stop.

...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/638222.html

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It's relevant enough.

It's an article about religion & theology, there's no mention of
'Israel' or 'Palestine', it's not making any points about the
conflict, & any discussion that the article raises would be
along the lines of a religious discussion.

Nothing in the rules state that posts here have to do with conflict per se. It would be no different than if someone posted something about Islamophobia and cross-posted it in the R/T forum.

It is no different than just about any "Israel" topic getting thrown down here, even if not directly related to I/P.

It's an article about religion, which is, presumably, why you
posted it in r/t. The article doesn't comment on, allude to, or
attempt to make any points about the i/p conflict, which is why
I'm saying that it should not be posted in i/p.

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"This is not i/p".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x32148#32151

...not directly. Should I go back and add that?!

The article discusses Nostra Aetate which HAS been tied directly back into the I/P arena. One VERY recent piece concerns a discussion of Nostra Aetate in the context of the new Pope's comments on recent suicide bombings along with Israeli reprisals which is causing a rift between Israeli and Vatican relations.

Some of the thoughts here is that some think the Pope is philosophically allowing the Catholic Church to separate the it's relationship to Judaism from that of Zionism and the State of Israel, others think that he is unraveling the last 40 years of Nostra Aetate and returning back to the time when the Catholic Church's doctrine was distinctly dismissive of Judaism to the point of including anti-Semitic memes into it's discussions. This latter is not helped by lingering issues relating to his arch-conservatism in the Catholic Church and his youth in Germany including association with anti-Semitic elements.

The discussion above can only be done here.

L-

scholar - not a blogger.

Try Richard Rubenstein (the Harvard Divinty School educated Rabbi) -- or maybe Rev Forrest Church of the Unitarian Universalist Church

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Your posting of this artcle seems to imply that all Palestinian Supporters are anti-Semetic. This is far and away from the truth. What is the truth is that, except for the militant "kill Israel" Muslim clerics and those of their ilk, we are simply against oppresion. We aren't against Jews in general, but we cannot forgive the regrettable actions of Israel towards the Palestinian people because Jews are the oppresors and carriers out of what we see as apartheid. If the situation was reversed in Israel, most of us would be just as pro-Israeli as we are pro-Palestinian here and now.
For fellow Palestinian supporters: Pay no attention to accusations of anti-Semitism. I've found that being accused of this means you have won the argument.
If I was wrong, and yur purpose in posting this article was different, please forgive me.

nor did the kidnapping of , nor the willingess to believe the nor the readiness to buy into .

The "Numerus Clausus" admission requirements didn't result in more Ivy League seats for Palestinians.

And Racially Restrictive Covenants didn't open up housing for Palestinians.

But this forum is for discussion of the issues between Israel and Palestine, and anti-Semitism, in my view, should be discussed here as it pertains to this particular conflict. If you want to discuss anti-Semitism in a broader sense, then there are other forums and groups where you can do so.
Edit: Such as the Religion & Theology Forum and the Jewish Group.

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Then, can I infer that you think all Israeli supporters are simplistic and think only anti-Semitism is the root of all problems in Israel and the Middle East?

I posted this because of recent articles in this forum about the Pope and Israel, as well as church divestment campaigns. Besides, if you think that anti-Semitism plays no part in some of the problems, then you are woefully or willfully ignoring it. As I see it, there are pro-Palestinians that are pro-Palestinian, some who are so simply because they are anti-Israeli, and a few who are just plain ol' Jew-hating bigots. There are some that unwittingly using anti-Semitic rhetoric when criticizing Israel. The burden lies on Israelis, the "pro" camp, and Jews to distinguish which is legitimate criticism of policy and politicians and which is based in anti-Semitic rhetoric.

Funny enough, I cross posted this in the Religion/Theology forum and the first comment...."this belongs in I/P." The first comment here..."this doesn't belong in this forum." Moderators from both forum agree that it belongs in BOTH, for some very obvious reasons.

You say: "the situation was reversed in Israel, most of us would be just as pro-Israeli as we are pro-Palestinian here and now." Notice the interesting word in that statement? It is the word "most." Why did you say 'most' and not 'all?' Perhaps you realize that some are simply anti-Israeli and some may just be anti-Semitic.

"For fellow Palestinian supporters: Pay no attention to accusations of anti-Semitism. I've found that being accused of this means you have won the argument." This is only true if they are not engaged in anti-Semitic rhetoric. PM the moderators of this forum and others and ask them how many posts they delete here (in I/P) and other forums because of anti-Semitic rhetoric. Do not fall into the trap of thinking the "left" is immune to discriminatory thoughts, beliefs, and actions. Do not assume a pro-Israeli is anti-Arabic or Islamophobic. Had I posted an article on Islamophobia, would you have made the same assumptions? You know that Islamophobia has played a HUGE part in the "war on terror," especially from this country (the US).

Does this clear it up? If not, ask more questions.

There's some 'supporters of Israel' here who on the slightest whiff of criticism of the Israeli govt for it's actions towards the Palestinian people will believe it's nothing but anti-Semitism that fuels the criticism....

btw, I'm a supporter of the rights of Palestinians to self-determination who isn't 'anti-Israel', and who finds that label just as moronic as when the freepers accuse anyone who criticises the US govt of being 'anti-american. I noticed you only gave two options - being 'anti-Israel' or being anti-Semitic. There's a very large number of people who don't fall into either category who support Palestinian self-determination...

Violet...

There are some that do see criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. Just as there are those that see the defense of Israel as Islamophobic or anti-Arab.

You noticed wrong, however,...I gave three options:

1. there are pro-Palestinians that are pro-Palestinian,
   
2. some who are so simply because they are anti-Israeli,
   
3. a few who are just plain ol' Jew-hating bigots

By your claim, you would fall into "category 1."

btw, yr right. I did notice wrong, so my apologies on that one....

Violet...

n/t.

First, not being able to count to three, and then not remembering that I'd said 'whiff'. Mental note to self: don't post in future after returning home from bbqs :)

Violet....

You are correct. It does work both ways. Just swap the sides in your ordered list and you've got the situation. Just as there are those who attack Israel because there are plain ol' Jew-hating bigots there are those who support Israel because they are just plain ol' Arab/Islam-hating bigots.

There are also those in the third case who are purposefully conducting campaigns to try and hide their real agenda and craft messages designed to legitimize themselves with those that fall in the other cases. Willis Carto's groups for instance tried to do that with Holocaust Revisionism, but are now trying the same with the I/P conflict. 9/11 has done the same by allowing sympathy for those to legitimize their hatred of Muslims in general. These groups and individuals lie, use innuendo, stereotyping and other nefarious tactics to try and get people to support them and their bigoted agenda.

This growth of hate has become a wedge issue which only screws yourself and makes corporations and other greedy people a whole lot of money and gains these hateful people more of the power they crave. In truth these people probably hate you and the side you support almost as much as they hate Jews/Arabs/Muslims and if given enough power would gleefully see you up against the wall if given a chance and opportunity.

Personally, it pains me to see people who are so eager to prove their points that they are so willing to forget the hateful past of these groups and thus willingly spread their messages.

The lengths that are given to justify this are fairly deep.

It's just not worth it to become so blind to one issue that you give up your values to aid a group which is against what you stand for in so many ways. Yet people do.

And, yes, I'm talking about people who ostensibly support both sides here.

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many of us Palestinian supporters are just Jew-hating bigots in my reply? I'm not proud of it, to be sure, but to deny that they happen to be on my side would be as fallacious as a Christian claiming Pat Robertson does not share his faith.
Moving on...
I've never said that anti-Semetism doesn't play a huge role in this conflict. However, as I've said before, here we should discuss the problem as it pertains to Israel and Palestine.
I am also aware (I hope I won't have to say this many more times) that many Palestine supporters, knowingly or uynknowingly, use anti-Semitism to justify their rhetoric. It's lamentable, but it happens. On the other side, and this is very lamentable as well, you get Israeli supporters using anti-Semitism as a knock-down argument to justify everything Israel does. I'm sure you've seen that happening as well.

article, with a different take on this:
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20030505&s=green

"This fraught accusation of "left-wing anti-Semitism" surfaces so regularly that before considering it, we need to remind ourselves what anti-Semitism--the real thing--has actually looked like over the centuries. It had (and has) nothing to do with Israel or Zionism, but was rather a prototypical racist stereotyping, by means of which the alleged traits of certain individuals--"money-grubbing," "pushiness," moral degeneracy--are transformed via the alchemy of paranoid fantasy into the collective persona of "Jews" or "the Jew."

...But precisely because that is the nature of classical anti-Semitism, we also have to insist that not every reference to a Jew or to Jews is by that token anti-Semitic; to be unable to distinguish ordinary political discourse from hate-mongering is to be willfully obtuse..."

AND <snip>
These two conditions--the asymmetrical moral equation and the relationship of Israel to the United States--are what left-wing "Israel-bashing" is all about; they explain its occurrence satisfactorily. That is not to say that they excuse it; an explanation is not necessarily an excuse. For despite my earlier reference to the acceptance of Jews in the contemporary United States, there is still a terrible subtext here. Though Zionism originated as a response to nineteenth-century European anti-Semitism, it was finally given its material basis by the Holocaust. The State of Israel was thus born out of a terror at least as great as any people has ever had to undergo, and so the hideously destructive conflict between Palestinians and Jews over one of the smaller pieces of politically bounded land on the planet is one of the great historical tragedies of all time. Critics of Israel (I include myself among them) too often fail to see this tragic dimension; too often are capable of coldly forgetting, or seeming to disdain, this history when uttering our criticisms, or treating all of Israel as though it consisted of nothing but followers of Ariel Sharon. This constitutes a failure of human sympathy, though the failure is in no way idiosyncratic. Left, center--and nowadays especially right--people who are in the grip of ideological rigidity regularly forget the humanity of their opponents and view innocent people as only "collateral damage" arising from some policy or other. In the case of American policy-makers today, this is not an exception but the absolute core of their doctrine. As a member in good standing of the left, however, I like to think that we could do better than that.

But as for the political content of the criticism of Israel, finally, no invocation of anti-Semitism is necessary to explain the intellectual and emotional outcome of the obvious facts I have stated. Left spokespersons, including Jews, say what they mean, and they hardly ever say "Jews" when they mean "Israel" or "the Israeli government." We do not think political attacks on France imply hatred of French people, or that attacks on the "axis of evil" imply hatred of Iranians, Iraqis and Koreans. Only with "Israel" and "Jews" is this crude equation being made...

n/t

Therefore, I posted a response...so, I will explain my rationale after I find out why the first article was posted.

Yr turn now!!!!

at , and which has more credibility and rationality and logic the Phillip Green's article in The Nation.

YES - I DID READ THEM BOTH --

Harry's Place *&* Nick Cohen? Oh. My.


:rofl:

to discourage justified criticism of Israel...

You know what? It take guts to stand up in this country, and say that you think what Israel is doing is wrong.

I spent 3 years in theological seminary. I am well aware of a millenia of persecution of Jews. IMO, the heart of anti-semitism is found at the core of Christianity. I think Western Christians have never come to terms with the anti-semitism that is inherent in the Christian religion -- Jews reject the central core of Christianity and historicaly, that has rankled Christians and led to the persecution of Jews.

Instead, we basically allow centures of persecution in many places, culminating in our passivity as 6 million Jews are murdered. Rather than dealing with our implicit guilt, we "give" Palestine (ie., western powers that be sanction the creation of Israel) as a Jewish homeland.

This engenders a whole new set of charges and challenges... but the original source of Jew-hating (CHRISTIANITY) has never really been explored, IMO.

One interesting question is: lots of countries engage in heinous behavior. Why do a sizable number of American progressives highlight Israel's heinous behavior? Is the very choice to single out Israel an act of anti-semitism?

I think not. I think that when Israel sells itself as the US's #1 ally, as a people "just like us," and as the recipient of a huge amount of US aid (paid for by American workers...) we have the right to say "WTF??"

As Lithos said, up thread, both sides share folks who claim bigotry for every "attack" on their "group."

"but the original source of Jew-hating (CHRISTIANITY) has never really been explored, IMO." Check out this site: Judeophobia - History and analysis of Antisemitism, Jew-Hate and anti-"Zionism". It is a LONG read (20 pages). However, if you go all the way to the bottom of the first page, there is a "table of contents," and you can jump to the chapter you like. Most chapters are not really reliant on the former chapters.

"One interesting question is: lots of countries engage in heinous behavior. Why do a sizable number of American progressives highlight Israel's heinous behavior? Is the very choice to single out Israel an act of anti-semitism?" I don't always think it is anti-Semitism, but I do see a great deal of hypocrisy. No country is above reproach, but when one is a constant target for ire, it does make one wonder. It is prejudicial, IMO.

Why do a sizable number of American progressives highlight Israel's heinous behavior?

Because we subsidize it with our tax dollars?

with support comes accountability...

about nuke power, munitions, and the oil industry -- we subsidize the crap out of them for what.

In order presented:

1. Electricity

2. Defense (and too often unjustified offense)

3. Gas, Electricity, Heat, etc.

That was pretty simple.

Now, do I get a full tank out of subsidizing Israeli colonies (settlements) or electrical power from subsidizing the Annexation Wall?

therapies for cancers of viral oncogenesis, therapies for a whole host of pediatric leukemias, a lot of the data compression code in commercial products, a lot of the commercial encryption codes, a lot of the digital video codes, several of the units of the latest Pentium, .....

You really don't want that oncology stuff, do you?

that is the payback for subsidizing illegal colonies (settlements)? None of those advances would exist at all if not for the theft of land, the garbage strewn on the heads of Arabs in Hebron and the antics of the hilltop boys?

Dear sir, there is a deep end, and you've just gone off of it.

"Anti-Semitism and Jewish chauvinism can only be fought simultaneously." - Israel Shahak

I would only add, fought effectively.

everything Israeli.

Don't use Israeli therapeutics. Don't be a hypocrite.

Why not look at all the countries getting aide from this one, and see how many are democracies with free elections and free press?

But there is something about Israel that bugs you, clearly. I am curious about your avatar - looks like a ribbon of a war..

You may hate the military industrial complex of this country but there were many decent middle class jobs in the aerospace industry that disappeared after the fall of the Soviet Union. And most of the aid that went to Israel (and to other countries) was sent back to purchase supplies and military equipment made in the U.S. by American workers who made a decent living working on these shores.

And, during the Cold War, Israel shared with the U.S. military information that it gained through the its Arab neighbors.

And.. just heard in the news, again, that the administration complained that Airbus has a competitive advantage over Boeing because it is being subsidized by the U.K. and France. I remember reading, during the Clinton administration, that Israel's EL AL Airlines which was partly owned by the Israeli government, was debating between purchasing new aircraft from Boeing or Airbus. And the State Department pressured Israel to go with Boeing and Israel, of course, complied.

he doesn't need to worry. But the Israelis have developed the most effective Islets of Langerhans transplantation procedure.

charges of anti-semitism with anti- geez.. there's not even a word for it?

The only place where one is called out for racism against Arabs and Muslims is the DU message board. And thank God for that.

Anti-Semitism and, the word I already gave you, Islamophobia are equally dangerous. But, anti-Semitism just seems to be more tolerated on the left than Islamophobia. DU is not the only place where anti-Arabic attitudes and Islamophobia are decried.

be it Si Valley or Austin or Boston or Baltimore-Washington or Research Triangle -- the kind of stuff I have seen (from both sides) on DU would get you FIRED.

I can't speak or the librul arts and crafts types at Berkeley and Cal State SF.

there has not been a study of the Christian roots of anti-semitism.. I'm saying that broadly, western/christian culture has never come to grips with our corporate responsibility.

One can't change behavior until one acknowledges it.

in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcg|NIH National Library of Medicine Search Engine> when I Boolean ANDED the search terms "Anti-Semitism" and "Psychiatry".

Some interesting hits --

Goldstein, The wandering Jew and the problem of psychiatric anti-Semitism in fin-de-siecle France. J Contemp Hist. 1985;20(4):521-52.

Rensmann, Psychoanalytic anti-Semitism, Psychohist Rev. 1996 Winter;24(2):197-206.

Knafo, Anti-Semitism in the clinical setting: transference and countertransference dimensions. J Am Psychoanal Assoc. 1999;47(1):35-62.

Rosenmann, A critique of classical psychoanalytic theories of anti-Semitism: a commentary on M. Ostrow's myth and madness: the psychodynamics of anti-Semitism. Am J Psychoanal. 1998 Dec;58(4):417-33.

Dunbar, The prejudiced personality, racism, and anti-Semitism: the PR scale forty years later. J Pers Assess. 1995 Oct;65(2):270-7.

Bohleber, Nationalism, hatred of foreigners and antisemitism. Psychoanalytic considerations, Psyche (Stuttg). 1992 Aug;46(8):689-709

Keilson, Anti-Semitism of the left? Psyche (Stuttg). 1988 Sep;42(9) 769-94. German

Claussen, Psychoanalysis and anti-Semitism, Psyche (Stuttg). 1987 Jan;41(1):1-21. German.

Szafran, Psychological aspects of anti-Semitism in fascist writers,
Acta Psychiatr Belg. 1984 May-Jun;84(3):273-83

Mitscherlich-Nielsen, Anti-Semitism--a male disease?, Psyche (Stuttg). 1983 Jan;37(1):41-54.

Weill, Anti-Semitism: selected psychodynamic insights, Am J Psychoanal. 1981 Summer;41(2):139-48.

Traub-Werner, A note on counter-transference and anti-Semitism, Can J Psychiatry. 1979 Oct;24(6):547-8.

Himmelfarb, Studies in the perception of ethnic group members. I. Accuracy, response bias, and anti-semitism. J Pers Soc Psychol. 1966 Oct;4(4):347-55.

Schonfeld, Psychoanalysis and anti-semitism, Psychoanal Rev. 1966 Spring;53(1):24-37

Rule, Anti-semitism, stress, and judgments of strangers, J Pers Soc Psychol. 1966 Jan;3(1):132-4.

Weatherley, Maternal response to childhood aggression and subsequent anti-semitism.J Abnorm Soc Psychol. 1963 Feb;66:183-5.

Wangh, Psychoanalytic considerations on the dynamics and genesis of prejudice, anti-Semitism and Nazism. Psyche (Stuttg). 1962 Aug;16:273-84.

VonBayer-Katte, Additional thoughts on a symposium on the psychological and social presuppositions of anti-Semitism. Psyche (Stuttg). 1962 Aug;16:312-7.

Hochheimer, Decrease of prejudices in education and the prevention of anti-Semitism, Psyche (Stuttg). 1962 Aug;16:285-311

Peabody, Attitude content and agreement set in scales of authoritarianism, dogmatism, anti-semitism, and economic conservatism.
J Abnorm Soc Psychol. 1961 Jul;63:1-11

Pulos, Perceptual selectivity, memory, and anti-semitism. J Abnorm Soc Psychol. 1961 May;62:690-2

Weatherley, Anti-semitism and the expression of fantasy aggression.
J Abnorm Soc Psychol. 1961 Mar;62:454-7.

Glenn, Circumcision and anti-semitism. Psychiatr Q. 1960 Jul;29:395-9.

Berkowitz, Anti-semitism and the displacement of aggression. J Abnorm Soc Psychol. 1959 Sep;59:182-7

Trunk, Anti-semitism; a contribution to its Freudian interpretation.
Psychiatr Q. 1958 Jul;32(3):574-88.

Alexander, Castration, circumcision, and anti-Semitism. J Abnorm Psychol. 1957 Jul;55(1):143-4.

Evans, Personal values as factors in anti-semitism. J Abnorm Psychol. 1952 Oct;47(4) 749-56.

Bonaparte, Psychological causes of anti-Semitism. Rev Fr Psychanal. 1951 Oct-Dec;15(4):478-91.


Krapf, The Jew in Shakespeare; a contribution to the psychology of anti-Semitism. Rev Psicoanal. 1951 Apr-Jun;8(2):173-202

Psychiatric/psychological basis - some profesionals think so.

But, from a forensic -psychaitric view point -- this mental illness is no defense to overt actions.

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I will delete the link immediately...

I will patiently await cogent response to the actual topic, if there is one forthcoming.

the website has Prof. Shahaks book on it. It's the only reason it's listed.

It can be brought at Amazon also. I'm sure that reveals a lot about Amazon, doesn't it?

Now, back to the topic...

even hateful sites can have interesting articles.....but that one was really 'far gone"

That site had some whacked out crap...

Google needs to have some sort of warning for those sites as I was looking for Prof. Shahaks book and wound up there. Most uncool. I am sure that only the second time I've pulled a boner like that in the 5 years I've be posting here.

That site is a perfect example of using legitimate scholarship for a hidden agenda (or not so hidden, as the case may be).

call it a hunch...

Otherwise you be able to detail where Shahak is factually incorrect.

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you just inhaled the text. Hence the incoherent response.

;-)

Israel Shahak? Seriously.

Your scholarship is not up to its usual level.

Check out http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=103223&mesg_id=103451>

The proper diagonostic term a "A bissel mishoga"

If you generated superior scholarship, put it out there for all to see. It's rather small to sit anonymously behind a keyboard and peevishly snipe at a deceased author.

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especially if the truth and the underlying reason for the origin of hatred Christians have toward Jews cannot be discussed.

I fully understand why some feel we should be more open, but a discussion is meaningless otherwise.


So long as members are honest and respectful toward other, I don't see the point of the censorship.


I'm confused and shocked, I probably have to go back and read the rules.

Is censorship normal at DU..??

If you have no Jew-hating comments or sites....game on!

I don't see anything remotely close for it to be a PRIMARY issue on your mind.

There's a lot more hatred of many other people and things at DU.


You have to look at history in the right context. Censorship to avoid a true account of historical facts doesn't change the truth.

Secondly, I find it wrong to assume that criticism of Jews in ancient time has a reflection on modern day Jews. We need to separate the actions of both and accept that neither is a reflection of the other.

in the Israel/Palestine section.

It is interesting that people want to be able to post that people are anti-semitic and do so in various ways to get around the rules. I agree that a true discussion is not allowed.

I can understand and totally agree that anti-semitism should not be tolerated. But the article seems to be highly anti-Christian, insulting to Christians, in fact. My point is not really to defend Christianity, but to wonder why this is acceptable here?

<snip>
"The Christian kneels before a Jew's image, rubs his hands before a Jewess' (Mary) image, Jesus' apostles are Jews and so are the psalms he recites. Only few would be capable of overcoming these contrasts, and most of them seek to relieve the tension by means of anti-Semitic acts. Since they are obliged to worship a Jew as a god, they take revenge on the rest of the Jews, whom they describe as sons of Satan."

I recognize nothing of Christianity in what the rabbi describes. This is not meant to say that there has not been, historically, anti-semitism within Christianity, but the attitudes described in the quoted passages seem totally foreign to what I understand to be the Christian experience of most Americans. Now certainly one could argue that the writer is describing late 19th century Vienna, a place which apparently has little to do with the modern-day United States, but in that case, what is the point of even posting this article?

And further, is not the author of these words just as guilty of generalizing about Christians as anti-semites are of generalizing about Jews? Why should there be a different standard?

I find this article offensive.

"Anti-Semitism and Jewish chauvinism can only be fought simultaneously." - Israel Shahak

I would only add, fought effectively

You agree that anti-Semitism shouldn't be tolerated...I call "bullshit!" But, that is just my OPINION!

Nothing in this article claims ALL Christians are "X" or "Y," but you want to see it that way. So be it.

You recognize NOTHING! It is not this is ANCIENT thoughts, it is what is taught today! Don't believe it?! Ask, newyorican...he posted from a hate site and didn't know it! The site he quoted, until he changed it, was listed in the Hate Dictionary! Here we are in the 21st century and they same shit is being spewed!

You need to see modern day Christian hate? Let me show you the sites...they are plentiful! Bury your head...but, that doesn't mean they aren't there!

I find your response offensive!

That is precisely what you yourself, I am sure, would object to if it was going in the other direction. And for good reason.

Here is one example of a prejudicial statement in the quote:
THE Christian... (the use of "the" indicates that the speaker is referring to ALL Christians, or Christians in general, doesn't it? If I were to post an article with the term in it, "THE Jew" and then go on to make some generalized (and particularly negative) statements, wouldn't you be offended? And why in the world would you "call bullshit" on my statement that anti-semitism shouldn't be tolerated? This seems odd.

Then, it goes on to say, "MOST of them seek to relieve the tension by means of anti-Semitic acts." Again, don't you feel this is quite a generalization. I in no way disagree with you that there remain hate sites on the internet, there are certainly individuals who hate. But the quotes you posted in your top post indicate that MOST Christians think and behave in this way, and that's just not true. If I were to say, "MOST Jews seek to relieve this tension by...," I am sure you would be offended.

And this, "Since they are obliged to worship a Jew as a god, they take revenge on the rest of the Jews..." is just an ugly fantasy of the writer. That Jesus was Jewish is in no way an issue of contention for the average Christian. They just don't consider it the way the writer thinks they do.

Nobody would disagree with you when you point out that there are hate sites on the internet. Too many of them. But there is hate directed toward all sorts of things on the internet - towards women and muslims and gays, and so on - not all is directed toward Jewish people. We live in increasingly uncivilized times, for everyone. Since even the article acknowledges that this is written about the beliefs and attitudes of people from whom we are separated by the huge gulf of the 20th century, I again ask, what was the point in posting it? If you think there is a hate problem in general, or in particular about Jewish people, is this the proper place to discuss it, I wonder? Are you condemning the Palestinians by association?

I ask you again to explain your comments please.

I did not quote from a "hate site". I quoted from a book which is available on many website and for sale on amazon, Barnes & Nobles and other commercial locations.

The google search I did on the author led me to a hate site listed in Franklins directory. I mistakenly linked to that site where the book was avaiable for educational purposes. That particular website, obviously, has another agenda which I was unaware of.

The same book, Jewish History & Jewish Religion by Israel Shahak, is avaialable on many website for educational purposes. The copyright allows for this type of use.

I repeat, I quoted nothing from a hate site, I quoted from a commercially available publication. You'll note that the the only content I changed in my post was the link, all other content remained the same.

I realize that all of this does not roll off the tongue as easily as, 'newyorican quoted from a hate site', but facts are facts and words have meaning, because if they didn't no one would understand what the hell you're saying.

...it would have been more accurate to say you "linked" to a hate site. You did not actually quote anything from a hate site.

It is where they send all "bad" threads. Some people are anti-Semitic, but the 'left' likes to pretend it is not so, because that would be un"progressive."

I find it interesting that people want to pretend that they can't discuss these issues without the charge of "anti-Semitism." They will wail and gnash their teeth, all the while saying NOTHING! All they say, is: "I can't say anything about Israel or it will be deleted." Although, this fucking forum shows that is not the truth! But, why let truth stand in your way, when you can pretend that the Jews also control DU's I/P!

Oh wait...is that calling you anti-Semitic?! Have I offended you?!

Get a grip!

Discussions can occur here and have but you are denying that people post Jew-hating sites (and anti-Arab ones) and pretend it is REAL debate.

I do hope you can distinguish between the two.


Your comment are unfounded:

"modern day Christian hate"

"Some people are anti-Semitic, but the 'left' likes to pretend it is not"


Firstly, Christianity and Christians in general are in decline. Fewer people even care to read the bible. And at this mainly Liberal site, you have even fewer Christians. There are extremely few "Modern Anti-Semitic Christian", but you have many "Modern Anti-Israel Christians" and pro-Israel Christians as well.

Those who are anti-Israel have nothing against Jews, including Arabs and Muslims for that matter. The likes of you "insist" on keeping alive the Anti-Semitic label, in an age in which it doesn't truly exist.



The article is extremely offensive to Christians, but it remains. If I were to provide a Christian reasoning for past hatred of Jews, it'll be deleted. Why the discrimination and censorship???


It's impossible to refute the article with the truth..... hence we continue a meaningless discussion.

You really need to read the FBI stats! Anti-Semitism is ON THE RISE!

But, don't that let interfere with your delusions!

Pretend what ever you want....that doesn't make it true!

.....at a much greater pace than Anti-Semitism.


You should stop confusing Anti-Israel statements with Anti-Semitism.


To prove my point, I dare you to produce statistics on Anti-Israel sentiment in the US...... (guess why it doesn't exist?)

Nobody in the North was ever anti-black. Ever, They all loved their African American fellow citizens. They all supported Brown v. Board of Education.

It was just they wanted to "Preserve Their Neighborhood Schools" and "Protect Their Real Estate Values" and "They Didn't Want Their Kids Riding The School Bus All Day."

Yeah!

Gimme a friggin break. I am 64 years old and have been "Walking Preincts" for Democrat candidates in Rust Belt urban areas since 1969.

Nobody was ever anti-black.

There are certain hatreds ..... Please. I am 64 and I grew up in a "changing urban area." Please.


Sometimes it's N-word and sometimes it's K-word and sometimes it's S-word and sometimes it's A-word.


and, hiabrill from , - I was at an inter faith brotherhood "Celebration of Fast and Feast" three weeks ago to celebrate the simultaneity of Ramadan and Yom Kippur ---

... Fantastic, that's the spirit that I love. I wish it could happen here, but that ain't never happening.

The development of greater Inter faith brotherhood between Jews and Muslims is a must.

That is something I feel Israel doesn't want..... because it give a human face to the Palestinians.

Had a friend who'd organize summer camps in the US with both Israeli Jews and Palestinians. They'd start off as the worst of enemies and end up as life long friends.


..... Trust me there is VERY LITTLE INTERACTION between Muslims and Jews. Not near enough to break the stigma that exists on both sides. All Arab countries had Jews, but after the creation of Israel they either left or went underground. And when I say underground I mean a complete assimilation into the greater Arab/Muslim population.


Racism rarely ever dies away, it's mainly contained. It can be easily revived if it isn't kept in check. (look at Yugoslavia for instance) No Nation has done better than the US at combating Racism, but it's still there with a different face.

Occured in Silicon Valley, CA.

My cousin is a long time Peace activist in Israel - and she has been organizing Jewish-Muslim summer camps and sports leagues since the late 1970's, and working with young Moms (Jewish and Muslim) in Acco equally long.

Before I retired my three closest colleagues were Muslims (Two Iranians, one Indian), and one of my good friends in our condo association is Pakistani. My endocrinologist is Egyptian, and our veterinarian is Egyptian, and my thesis chair was an Indian Muslim

(guess why it doesn't exist?)....What doesn't exist? Statistics or anti-Israeli sentiment?

... that isn't tainted with Anti-Semetic accusations....


The two are mixed together instead of being looked at separately.

ADL Poll: Americans Maintain Strong Support for Israel and Overwhelmingly Back Gaza Disengagement

• Americans sympathize more with Israel -- 42% -- than with the Palestinians – 14%.
• With Israel's disengagement from Gaza just weeks away, an overwhelming majority -- 71% -- believe Israel's action is a "bold step for peace."
• 77% of Americans believe Israel is more serious about reaching a peace agreement with the Palestinians; 68% think the Palestinians are serious.
• A majority of Americans -- 52% -- believe Israel is currently working harder for peace than the Palestinians – 16%.
• 40% of respondents have a favorable impression of Prime Minister Sharon; 21% unfavorable.
• Even though 67% of Americans believe the U.S. is more likely to be targeted for terrorist attacks because of its support for Israel, 56% of those agree that the U.S. should continue its support of Israel despite the risk.

You can read all three surveys at http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslME_62/4752_62

For addtional reading pleasure...Attitudes toward Israel and the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict in 12 European Countries.

I wouldn't trust the ADL to produce an honest untainted poll on this issue.


Do you have polls from an independent source?

"I wouldn't trust the ADL to produce an honest untainted poll on this issue." And the reason?

The Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) studies public opinion on international issues.
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/IsPal_Conflict/IsPalMap_May03/IsPalMap_May03_quaire.pdf

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/IsPal_Conflict/IsPal_May02/IsPal_May02_rpt.pdf

American Attitudes Toward Israel This is a collection of polls from other places, despite it being on a Jewish site.

PNAC, Zionists, Jews, Americans, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Liddy, Sharon, etc.--->

anti-semitism ignores the facts. It's simply the new excuse.

I'm not saying that it's invalid to disagree with many Israeli govt actions, past and present. Simply that the fact that hating the Israeli government is "fueling" anti semitism, clearly shows that this hatred already existed.

Anti-semitism has taken hundreds of guises throughout history and continues to do so today. I can't tell you how many times a year someone tells me that Jews are cheap, Jews are rich, Jews control the media, Jews control the world. That's the brand here in the US.

In other places and times Jews are poor, Jews cause disease, Jews eat christian babies, Jews lost us the war, Jews betrayed us, etc etc.

The only time you hear people referencing the overwhelming Christianity of the US as a deciding factor in invading Iraq, it's through a muslim mouthpiece.

We've given support and aid to probably every single country that is currently undertaking a real genocide.

I believe that a big part of the reason that so many decry the actions of Israel so vehemently, while they ignore the much more horrific, and less justifiable actions of so many other nations is because they are anti-semitic. And what's more, the guilt over the holocaust as well as 2 previous millenia of persecutions and pogroms, makes people hungry for a justification. "Look, we were right to revile those people. They're fighting a war."

When deep down, everyone knows that nearly every nation on the planet, when faced with the same challenges as Israel, possessing the same level of power over their opponents would have truly committed a genocide at this point... and it would barely have made headlines in a few papers.

Bottom line for me is that aside from the psychological assertions (which if based on Freud are crap, as he didn't/couldn't experiment), people hate Jews because we refuse to die out dispite their best efforts. And because of a historical and extant emphasis on education and hardwork, Jews by the numbers tend to do ok... it is assumed that we must survive by ill gotten means, since all people are inferior to WASPs.

And don't even try to tell me you've never heard that assertion about the "wily jew". If you haven't you need to get out and taste 'Murica a bit :(

Edited- Post Script

I actually had a moron at work go on a whole rant describing how jews were to fault for nearly everything, and how they brought the holocaust, etc onto themselves because "You people just take and take and take and give nothing back, that's how you've survived."

When I pointed out that Jews are disproportionately represented by the Nobel foundation for humanitarian efforts, as well as more "secular" fields, he was quick to respond that "Oh yeah sure, those Jews just happened to work hard for personal gain, and if they can help people in the process all the better."

Five days later when I refused a small bonus at work because I didn't feel that I deserved it, by boss was shocked. He went in his office for a bit, then came out, interrupted my conversation to recount how when he was working in Florida "All the old Jews were cheap, and put their leftovers in their purses to take home... they never tipped either." Then he casually strolled back into his office.

Nevermind the fact that nearly all old people who went through the depresion or the holocaust are like that because they're fucked in the head. No, those Christians in the depression were traumatized and their behavior is easily explained by their experiences. The Jews on the other hand are evil.

So he went out of his way to remove the cognitive dissonance he felt by seeing a dirty heeb turn down money.

My life has been full of shit like this, whether or not Israel was in the media.