Gaza's Turmoil in Context

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=9511

The most recent kidnappings in the Gaza Strip are a disheartening testimony to how factionalism, corruption and lack of discipline can scar a national struggle that was meant to exemplify precisely the opposite.

Although attempts to hijack and reduce the Palestinian struggle date back to its very early days, never before have these efforts succeeded in eclipsing Palestinian national priorities in their entirety, as we are witnessing today.

Thousands of headlines around the world have reached a similar deduction: “Gaza Engulfed in Chaos.” While the chronic failure to place Gaza’s ‘anarchy’ in a proper framework persists, almost all news media, without fail, have managed to link Gaza’s disorder to Israel’s Disengagement Plan of late last year. “After Israel: Who Can Run Gaza?” asks the Christian Science Monitor, as if occupation is a legitimate form of governance, as if Gaza is anything but an exclusively Palestinian entity.

But never mind that. Never mind that a few months of Palestinian failure to control Gaza – with very few causalities resulting from the chaos – espoused greater media outrage, questioning and scrutiny than all 38-years of the catastrophic Israeli occupation combined. Never mind that Israeli bombardments and assassinations of Palestinian activists in Gaza – carried out simultaneously during the kidnapping ordeals – received little coverage and no rebuke. Never mind that because after decades of mostly one-sided media coverage, one, though grudgingly, is forced to concede that Western media is, by and large decidedly on the wrong side of any legitimate national struggle. Iraq and Palestine are the most obvious examples.
more http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=9511

Please read the article in its entirety.

Rather, it’s an attempt to expose Palestinians misuse of the legitimate struggle of their people to achieve prominence, fame and fortune, while ordinary Palestinians continue to endure under the boot of Israeli soldiers and now the rein of militants.

so the writer is trying to blame israel but is then saying its the "militants"....once again trying to blame israel for a palestenain problem. However i will give him credit as he does write:

By destabilizing Gaza through disaffected militant groups, influential members of the ruling Fatah party – who risk loosing their power and relevance altogether – are likely sending a message that if democracy subtracts them out of the political equation – with all of its privileges – militancy and disorder can bring them back.


however the writer is at odds to the British writer who writes that the problem is not "elites" but more of tribal warfare, which to my experience and knowledge of gaza sounds a lot more appropriate to its internal divisions:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1686907,00.html
Law and order has collapsed in Gaza ahead of elections this month. Powerful clans, suddenly without a common enemy to unite them, are killing each other and seeking to sweep aside the heirs of Arafat, condemned as weak and corrupt

Now we find out that the reason Abbas has not been able to rein in the militant factions is that Sharon denied the PA the tools to do so, all the while bemoaning Abbas inability to act.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=KAN20051014&articleId=1077

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

can you provide any source that says these bullets were actually delivered? I've searched, but find nothing. And, why was Abbas not provided these bullets from the outset, from the time the Gaza disengagement was made? Why wait until things had gotten out of control?

Also, if the point one is making is about circumstances that have not changed in two years, then posting a two-year-old article seems perfectly reasonable. Has the occupation ended? You seem to think a partial withdrawal, from Gaza only is equal to an end of occupation, but the occupation is of the entire territory, not just Gaza. If the occupation really had ended, then your point might be better received. I believe the older article I posted was in relation to the poor economic condition of the Palestinians in Gaza. Do you believe it has improved significantly in the years since the article was written?

its a bad habit in life, it keeps one from overcoming obstacles:

posting 2 yr old article that talks about the planned occupation of gaza and ignores the palestenain/egytian border is not only out of date, its simply wrong...... (and it retains the "its israels fault)

such poor excuses as "why wasnt abbas provided bullets in the beginning" is such a poor question. But since you did ask, and i have no problem in answering any question: the last time we gave the palestenans guns and bullets, they were used against us, hence we're not to excited about doing it again, also instead of shooting at us, they could have saved their ammunition....thats why.

for some odd reason the "occupation consists of "electricity" (yes i'm still waiting your conclusion: stop it and end the occupation?)...there is nothing within the gaza society today that prevents the PA from doing its job in terms of israel.

One of your past comments was the "total destruction" of gaza....do you really believe that?...(total destruction would resemble Berlin 1945), if you do, would you please explain, if you dont, then why write it?

As far as their econ problems...sure there in trouble, the PA is corrupt, they lost their jobs in israel, and egypt sure isnt helping them any......but your implication that israel should let them work in israel, suicide bombers and all is simply absurd. Employers are not fond of hiring people when they dont know which one may or may not blow them up, or stab them....They can now go to egypt for jobs, blame egypt

there is absolutily nothing that israel is doing that is stopping them from making their own society. All the excuses of "occupation"- electricity, air space, etc has no effect on the governing body to govern....they serve as excuses, no more than that.

You will note, that the complaints of "no more bullets" is stopped, + they can import from egypt (another excuse bites the dust)...and the complaints coming from gaza are not about the "lack of bullets" its about the lack of will (again, these are comments from actual people who either live there or journalists who have been.....)

succcseful people(s) dont look for excuses, they size up their situation and make the best, those who look for excuses for ever remain behind "crying about how somebody else ruined their lives...." and doing nothing about it.

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you tell me, what actual action is israel doing that is preventing the palestenians from making a society (and remember they have complete access to egypt and the world, for jobs, electricity, bullets, exporting etc)

Your attitude toward me is getting really bad. Where was the mutual respect we were working on? (It wasn't I who got that post of yours deleted, btw. I figured you just didn't know about freerepublic.)

And as for your "excuses" comments, they just don't fly, nor does the part about "blaming" Israel for everything. To me, use of these sorts of characterizations is an indication that you aren't really interested in discussing anything, only in "winning." Several of the issues you bring up (again) we've already discussed. I won't go over that all again, because when I answer, you simply don't accept what I say.

But here's something to think about. Would many investors put their money into Palestine, since Israel has retained the right to engage in military incursions at any time? How secure would that make any investment? Would Israel come through and destroy factories, etc., saying that they might be harboring terrorists?

Not to mention that it is not a complete withdrawal and cessation of the occupation anyway.

as long as you keep to the facts, and keep the exagerations out of it, i have no problem with disagreements (your 'total destruction of gaza for instance on a different thread, using old out of date posts of what the gaza pullout would look like on another.....making accuasations as per electrical occupation and then not answering when the obvious contradiction comes up, - should then israel cut it?)

keep to the facts as much as possible, use up to date info, and when a "mistake or exageration happens, simply admit it...thats a very important part of "mutual respect". Perhaps i should clarify something, I am active reservist in the IDF (a combat soldier). Which means when the accusations fly about the IDFs (i.e. me) indiscriminatly killing men, women and child, wanton destruction of property, i take it rather personally (not to say it destruction hasnt happend, but to claim that its policy is simply one more "israel is evil" syndrom). Furthermore i've spent quite a bit of time in Gaza, rather then making guesses of what it looks like, try asking, i'll tell you what i know.

your "investor scenario is also a false......israel has been at war since 48, and has succeeded. As far as gaza goes, there was never any destrution of the infastructure, just specific factories, the larger factories have been untouched: the PA kept the terrorists out of them and israel never touched them, just as they dont "bomb" the zionist electrical grid.....

+ since "independence, there has be a "LEAVING" of capital, UN personal and others...all of this is due to internal strife.....

israels possible incursions are soley dependent upon the palestenians...all they have to do is not shoot at israel...any investor problem is a palestenian problem. Why do you insist on attempting to put the onus on israel in defending itself if the attacks continue from gaza?....your solution appears to be that israel should simply ignore the attacks from gaza so that the potential investors will feel good?...inshort, israelis should get killed so that investors will invest in gaza. For stability the gazans have simply have to "go to work" and secure their borders.

every area in the world has a dominate miliatry power....the middle east is no different.

as far as "complete withdrawl"..you continually ignore the "one way street of it. Once done there is no going back, for reasons unknown to me, you seem to believe that gazas turmoil cant happen in the westbank. Mores so you seem to ignore the palestenian in gaza who are now claiming that given the present chaos, that life under israel wasnt so bad. This is not to say that the occupation was a good thing, but it is to recognize that to many palestenains us israelis are not the evil of evils. (For that all they have to do is send in the egyptians to make order), and that maybe those in the westbank are having second thoughts about such a thing right now.....

do you even read what the palestenians in gaza are now saying?

There doesn't seem to be much point in responding yet again to any of the issues you raise. Anyone who is interested can read the relevant threads, read my responses, and form their own opinion.

Now I'll ask you to respond to one of my observations, which you have never addressed:
You essentially keep asking the question over and over about what a solution should be. Your implication is clearly that since there is disorder and violence in Gaza, Israel is now justified in refusing to return the West Bank. ...Essentially you are saying that here are these two countries that have a war going on, but one country should cease to fight, and after years of brutal occupation must IMMEDIATELY reorganize to bring the society up to a standard set by the other party to the war, and if it doesn't, well, that justifies the other country seizing even more land, which was what the entire war was about in the first place. It's a circular argument, pelsar; it makes no sense.

Explain to me why you think your circular argument makes sense, pelsar.

that it justifies seizing more land? What he said was that it justified not returning any more so long as the chaos continues.

increased significantly in the West Bank since the Gaza disengagement! Were you unaware of that? This is not something that should be simply glossed over.

And my entire point was the circularity of the argument that says that violence in opposition to the take over of land should be used as a justification for not returning that land and taking more. You seemed to miss that.

actually you never answer my questions...you tend to modify my questions and your answers to make them fit your beliefs:

first of all, the scenario:
(you will note there is no mention of settlements in the two questions, nor should there be in the answer....)

Given that gaza is what it is, and if the westbank,etc was given back to the palestenains today...and that the chaos might very well expand in to the westbank, missles shot in to jersualsem:....

two questions:
why do you seem to assume it cant happen..

if it does, what shall israel do?...lets it citizens be terrorized or what?...and if it shall respond, how?

That's my entire point. Why would I agree to these conditions that you try to impose on me? Your arguing style is an echo of what Israel itself is trying to do.

but rather with the arguments you seem to want us to make.

aspects of the conflict with which you feel you can best prove your points? I'm not willing to do that. Insult me or misrepresent the situation all you want, but I'm just not going to agree with your efforts to set the terms of the debate to your own favor by simply eliminating a large part of the relevant issues.

but by the same token, I'm not willing to let you get away with evading the issues raised by your proclamations by moving the goalposts.

order? With the very old and corrupt Israeli leader now incapacitated by a stroke, it seems that his followers now feel free to attack Israeli troops in Hebron, while not brutally attacking Palestinians. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x111843

Yes, it may seem that as a young state of less than 60 years, Israel cannot yet reign in its more violent, extremist members, who seem to be hellbent on throwing Palestinians into the sea. Its courts, on the rare occasions it actually prosecutes an Israeli for crimes against Palestinians, usually let them go free, or give out ridiculously light sentences even for murder.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x112032

or do you truly not comprehend the difference between "not returning more land" and "taking more land"?

it used to be: one side attacks, the other side the attacks, using the last attack as the reason....

israel broke the cycle: left gaza, did not respond to the last attacks, but simply left.

The gazans instead of the NOT attacking, launched 30 missles. Israel STILL did not respond...the missles continue.....(or do believe this is not the case, perhaps thats where the problem is-try to answer directly)
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all the gazans have to do the break the cycle now in gaza is to stop shooting at us...its not cyclic, its simple.
we tried to break the cycle, the palestenains refused to and are still trying to "put it back"....If the problem can be solved there, it surly cant be solved in the westbank.
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i really dont care if gaza takes 1 day or 100 to sort themselves out, or it may take 100 years...or they may become a facist theocratic state....the point is their shooting missles and attempted infiltrations has a limited response by the IDF because they are less threatening.

pull the same stunts from bethlahem, missles on jersualem, and the response will be far greater further destroying what ever exists of the palstenian society there.....why do you want that?

Posted 11/07/05 12:12

Israel Approves Supply of Bullets for Palestinian Police
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, JERUSALEM

Israel will allow Egypt to provide the Palestinian police with tens of thousands of bullets in a deal to be financed by the United States, a senior Israeli official said Nov. 6.

“We have agreed to let Egypt provide the Palestinians with ammunition in the form of bullets, but not weapons, so that (Palestinian leader) Mahmud Abbas will not have any more excuses to hold back from attacking the terror infrastructure,” he said.

For months, Israel has refused to approve Palestinian requests to receive weapons and ammunition, which the Palestinian Authority says are essential for maintaining law and order in the increasingly strife-torn Palestinian territories.


National Security Council head Giora Eiland told public radio there was no way the Palestinian police could enforce their authority over radical militant groups with the chronic shortage of weapons currently in their possession.
snip


Wordie, I assume the police have bullets now and the fighting in the streets has continued.


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1226920&C=landwar

Sara Roy has written extensively on the Palestinian economy.
http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1587
'A Dubai on the Mediterranean'
Last April President Bush said that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza would allow the establishment of 'a democratic state in the Gaza' and open the door for democracy in the Middle East. The columnist Thomas Friedman was more explicit, arguing that 'the issue for Palestinians is no longer about how they resist the Israeli occupation in Gaza, but whether they build a decent mini-state there – a Dubai on the Mediterranean. Because if they do, it will fundamentally reshape the Israeli debate about whether the Palestinians can be handed most of the West Bank.'

Embedded in these statements is the assumption that Palestinians will be free to build their own democracy, that Israel will eventually cede the West Bank (or at least consider the possibility), that Israel's 'withdrawal' will strengthen the Palestinian position in negotiations over the West Bank, that the occupation will end or become increasingly irrelevant, that the gross asymmetries between the two sides will be redressed. Hence, the Gaza Disengagement Plan – if implemented 'properly' – provides a real (perhaps the only) opportunity for resolving the conflict and creating a Palestinian state. It follows that Palestinians will be responsible for the success or failure of the Plan: if they fail to build a 'democratic' or 'decent mini-state' in Gaza, the fault will be theirs alone.

Today, there are more than 1.4 million Palestinians living in the Strip: by 2010 the figure will be close to two million. Gaza has the highest birth-rate in the region – 5.5 to 6.0 children per woman – and the population grows by 3 to 5 per cent annually. Eighty per cent of the population is under 50; 50 per cent is 15 years old or younger; and access to healthcare and education is rapidly declining. The half of the territory in which the population is concentrated has one of the highest densities in the world. In the Jabalya refugee camp alone, there are 74,000 people per square kilometre, compared with 25,000 in Manhattan.

According to the World Bank, Palestinians are currently experiencing the worst economic depression in modern history, caused primarily by the long-standing Israeli restrictions that have dramatically reduced Gaza's levels of trade and virtually cut off its labour force from their jobs inside Israel. This has resulted in unprecedented levels of unemployment of 35 to 40 per cent. Some 65 to 75 per cent of Gazans are impoverished (compared to 30 per cent in 2000); many are hungry.

i remember watching them line up at the erez checkpost to enter israel starting at 4:00am.....previous to that, the industrial area an idea of oslo was once a thriving industrial area with israeli factories and palestenain workers...the workers were the best paid in the area, with no "checkpoint....and then the suicide bombers started and the attacks.

the israelis found bombs in their cars after having them fixed....the israelis closed down their factories and left.....few jobs were left. Still, there were jobs in israel...and then some palestenains attacked the checkpost....so it was closed..and then a suicide bomber at the checkpost,....and so it was closed...and then another attack....and closed again

once i did see the palestenians waiting line, attack a potential attacker and throw him out....all in all, they bombed and attacked the wrong place...israeli employers werent interested in workers that they didnt know if they would kill them one day or not.

theres a lesson here: dont try to kill your employer.


and of course theres is budgeting:
More than a quarter of the Palestinian budget is allocated towards the security services. Compare that to less than 10 percent for both health care and education.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/02/btsc.raz/

Did you ever study the detailed "minutia" history of the US after Independence - the private militias and local War Lords roaming New Hampshire, South Carolina, and, yes, even New Jersey.

BTW - check out Louisiana's Bayou Lafitte.

Here's a link you may find interesting --- . BTW - the suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion also had the unintended consequence of encouraging small whiskey producers and other settlers into the then frontier lands of Kentucky and Tennessee, outside the sphere of Federal control for many years. In these frontier areas they also found good corn growing country and smooth, limestone-filtered water, with which to make whiskey. You may want to check out such former Pennsylvania sons of Kentucky and Tennessee as Jack Daniels, Lem Motlow, and Jim Beam. (Not the products - the historic figures)
;)

To get serious again, this is almost normal and can not be blamed on Israel. What happened when Josef Broz Tito died, or when the Asian and Caucasian Republics withdrew from the former USSR. It would be a stretch to blame that on Israel. (Although I have seen the arguments made about both the former Yugoslavia and about the Asian Republics -- the paranoia is amazing.

Leaving aside for a moment the question of who is really responsible, and following up on your comments, you seem to be making an argument against what is the Israeli argument against full Palestinian statehood on all the Palestinian territory. If a certain degree of disorganization and chaos is to be expected in all new nations, then Israel can hardly reasonably use such an argument against statehood. Yet that is what Israel, and many posters here in I/P are clearly attempting to do.

But your point also fails to recognize that Gaza is only one relatively small part of the Palestinian lands. The occupation is not over, despite the Gaza disengagement. Israel continues a brutal occupation over Palestinians and that is part (not all) of the reason for the Gaza turmoil.

You said

Well, I disagree with them. I am not making the "Gaza is chaos" justification. To the contrary - as a parent I know that "terrible twos" and 'adolescence" are both normal. I think it is a superfluous and "makeweight" or mask argument.

I am a doc and know how to research and analyze and synthesize. I am not the Prime Minister or the Defense Minister. I am a military veteran - and had a PoliSci/History Minor in my engineering major. I have been very closely following what is happening in Belarus and Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia - as well as the Asian Republics of the former USSR. And we did study the Whiskey Rebellion in middle school (my home town!!). And what is happening is Gaza - and what will inevitably happen in the WB is normal - it's called "adolescence."

You also said Au contraire. A brutal occupation would not countenance the disorder.