Father, daughter buried together on her wedding day

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1063089929518

A father and his daughter out together on the night before her wedding were among the seven killed and 57 wounded in a suicide bombing at a popular coffee shop in Jerusalem Tuesday night.

Dr. David Appelbaum, 50, and his daughter Nava, 20, were buried Wednesday at 10:00 in Jerusalem.

Applebaum, born in Detroit, raised and educated in Cleveland, was head of the emergency department in Shaarei Zedek Hospital and founder of the Terem 24-hour emergency clinic in Jerusalem.

As the Shaarei Zedek crew of nurses and doctors were treating the dozens of wounded at Cafe Hillel, they received word that the attack had killed one of the most senior and beloved doctors of their hospital.

.........................................................

sounds like 2 real dangerous people that they had to be murdered.:eyes:

fuck these murderers and their supporters.

I don't believe the Palestinians will ever get my respect and concern as long as these killings go on. I don't like Sharon either, but at least he targets the responsible parties.

It is all "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" in this Israeli/Palestinian war. Neither side will give in till the end of time.

In the meantime, good people die.

Um, no, I don't think so. I don't call bombing entire apartment buildings and entire blocks of cities and obliterating villages because terrorists are "rumored" to be there can exactly be considered targeting the responsible parties. No one seems to give a damn about the innocent Palestinian lives lost on THEIR OWN LAND that the ISRAELIES HAVE INVADED, it seems that only Israeli lives are important.

I'm flat out sick of the idea that the only important life is an Israeli life. When did they become more important than others? The same goes with the Americans, but that's another story.

that not only "the responsible parties" die, and that "collateral damage" is an ugly euphemism for killed innocents?

So much waste of innocent life on both sides.

Tough Crowd with Colin Quinn had a comment similar to this in response to the israeli/palestinian conflict.

The actual discussion concerning I/P seemed similar to the internal debate i've had. Until Palestine distances itself from the Terrorist groups, and Arafat they don't deserve a Palestinian state. I just can't support terrorism.

Whereas Israeli actions are more a form of thuggery rather than terrorism, a heavy handedness that is actually a response to terrorism, and not (IMO) terrorism against Palestinians.

Today's Israelis are descendents of invaders--and in many case, invaders themselves. They are an occupying power, and the 'terrorism' is guerrilla warfare.

It's truly terrible that innocent people are being killed, but that's the cost of being part of an occupying group. During WW2, the man who is today the most famous calligrapher and type designer in the world was a Wehrmacht private who sketched new typefaces while standing guard duty on the French seacoast. Had he been killed by the Resistance, it would have been a huge loss to the world (not that the world would ever have known it) but that's what sometimes happens to invaders...even innocent, conscripted ones. They get killed by the people their leaders are oppressing. Solution? Throw out those leaders and stop being oppressors!

with all except thuggery. I don't care for Sharon, but how many chances can you give someone whose #1 goal is the death of you and your people? Does Israel at times appear harsh and unforgiving? Sure. Again I ask the question, how many times O Lord, how many times?


When, not if, we are attacked again what will your response be; let's talk? I don't think so. I hope not. If you learned nothing else in school you should have learned you can't talk your way out being terrorized.

Do you target an entire race for the actions of a few. The problem
is not the people, it's the leaders. When a leader tells you something
enough you begin to beleive it.

A good example is here in the US, 70% of Americans still believe that
Iraq was responsible for 9/11. Why, because our leaders keep making
the same misleading statements, and this 70% would rather believe a
lie then to seek the truth. Because the truth would be too harsh to accept.

Both the Israelis and Palestinians, believe their leaders, and neither
side wants to look for the truth. They find it easier to justify the
killing done by both sides. Perhaps if the US was more even handed, but that will never happen, because being even handed might cost some
in Congress votes, and that's more important the lives of the children
of both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Hamas and Hezbollah and their ilk are independent of Palestinian control. Arafat and Abbas and any other Palestinian leader has no more control over them than the Northern Ireland government has over the IRA or that the US government has over the Ku Klux Klan or the like. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., are independent and do not consider themselves under the control of ANY government except themselves. In fact, they consider the Palestinian leadership to be weak and ineffectual, and do not want to deal with it.

So it's very easy to say that the Palestinian leadership must control terrorism before anything else, but they don't have that power over the independent terrorist groups.

The deliberate targeting and barbaric murdering of innocent Israeli civilians, or the envititible posts I'll read that rationalize, justify, or otherwise pooh pooh the actions of the terrorists while more outrage is voiced over how Israel tries to protect her citizens from these murderers than the acts of murder themselves.

No, on second thought I do know what angers me. It's the "progressive liberals" here who seem to get more upset over destroyed replaceable trees and inaminate walls than the priceless irreplacable Israeli lives lost.

Wanna know why that wall is going up? Ask the mourners at the funeral today. And then tell the families how upset you are that Israel is trying to defend herself...an act that some people here feel Israel has no right to do. And then tell those families that Hamas is simply "defending" themselves and the Palestinian people by blowing people like those in article.

The responses to this latest act of uncivilized barbarism will be enough to get a zen buddhist monk pissed off.

have been lost than Israelis, Palestinians who, like the murdered Israelis, had NOTHING to do with what is happening. No one seems to give a damn about that, I guess Israeli lives are far more important. And I guess the Israeli government's deliberate murder of American Rachel Corrie isn't important, either.

As I've written before, I didn't get the progressive liberal memo that said that the accidental tragic deaths of Palestinian civilians as part of a campaign to fight terrorist murderers living among said population is on the same moral plane as the deliberate murder of Israeli civilians as part of a campaign of what can best be desribed as mass murder.

Spare me the moral equivilance shpiel. The day the IDF sits around a table thinking of ways to deliberately and barbarically slaughter as many Palestinian civilians as possible in with one bomb is the day I'll put the acts of Israeli defense and Palestinian terrorism at the same level.

already? And you've pretty much admitted that the Palestinian deaths aren't on the same "moral plane", as you put it, as the Israeli's deaths, which proves my point that Israeli deaths are considered far more important, when the deaths on BOTH SIDES are equally as important. There will NEVER be peace in that region until that simple fact is recognized by BOTH SIDES in the conflict.

Take note how ProudLib decries posts that "rationalize, justify, or otherwise pooh pooh the actions of the terrorists" yet in the very same post attempts to rationalize and justify the terrorist actions committed by the Israeli army: Israel, according to ProudLib is only trying to "protect her citizens". And then there is the set up to Israel's upcoming round of aggression unleashed on Palestinians as only "responses to this latest act of uncivilized barbarism".

Utterly hypocritical, ProudLib. Maybe try again when you have some solid ground to stand on, because until then, you'll get knocked over and exposed for your double standards every time.

When I refer to the moral plane, I am referring to groups like Hamas who deliberately target and murder innocent civilians and design attacks to insure that as many civilians lives are taken at once. Now, if you want to argue that Hamas and the rest don't do that, knock yourself out. This should be fun. You then ask me to prove that the IDF, as an organization, doesn't do the same. Sorry, that's logically impossible. The onus is on you to prove your assertion and the casualty stats don't back you up in any way shape or form. Go ahead, please point out where the IDF recently planned and executed an attack exclusively on Palestinian civilians and designed it in such a way that as many were taken out as they could get the shrapnel to slice through. I'll wait patiently for the answer.

This is not about which side has more valuable lives. Don't put words into my mouth. Based on what I've read, you can't see the moral difference between why a group like Hamas exists and the actions that it takes, as opposed to why the IDF exists and why it fights Hamas and the others.

Which doesn't suprise me.

It is a generally accepted analysis of the casualties suffered by both peoples that a little over half of the Arab Palestinians killed by Israeli forces are combatants, defined as members of various armed irregular bodies levying war against Israel, while a bit less than a third of Israelis killed by members of these bodies are serving members of the Israeli armed forces. It is clear from this that the Israelis, at least, exercise a little more care in their use of violence than do their foes.

The Irish government goes to great lengths to discommode I.R.A. operations, to arrest and imprison members of those I.R.A. bands still committed to violence against Orangemen and England. It efforts are not perfects, but such persons lead a hunted existence in the Irish Republic, due not to English but to Irish authorities. While the Palestine Authority has no authority over Hamas and Islamic Jihad, it certainly does not take active steps to discommode their operations, nor to arrest and imprison their members. Indeed, ir fears that to do so would provoke a civil war among Arab Palestinians, that it might well lose. It may be said, then, that the Palestine Authority exists on the sufferance of these grouos, and not the other way around, at least by a person of impish inclination.

the poster is a Ms. just thought i'd mention it.

it is an ugly situation.
both sides,imo,are victims and victimizers.

one that, any decent person should reject the tit-for-tat. the loss of innocent civilians is tragic. doesn't matter if it is an Israeli or a Palestinian, and excuses be damned.

hope all is well with you,Sir.

The United States does not take ANY active steps to discommode the terrorist operations committed by the State of Israel, nor has it done ANYTHING to arrest and imprison the guilty parties. Instead, the US rewards Israel's aggression and ethnic cleansing with billions in cash and military gear every year.

I guess you simply forgot to mention that.

You must remember that a suicide bombers, not unlike the suicide attacks in the US two years ago, use their lives as an instrument to kill innocent pople. This is a devaluation of the meaning of life. It is not that Israeli lives are more important, but the value is lessened when it is used as a political tool.

There is a conversation with Rudi Giulliani on CNN.com today. Here is a quote:

HEMMER: What did you learn, again, about life two years ago, given the enormous tragedy that enveloped you at that time?

GIULIANI: I learned how valuable it is to us. I mean if you think about it, the people who attacked us put a much lesser value on their own lives and other people's lives than we do. And maybe the mark of our civilization is the importance of human life, how fragile it is, the tremendous contributions individual human beings can make.

http://www.cnn.com/

The deaths of so many, 13 Israeli deaths in one day, each attack just an instantaneous explosion, that it hits everyone as a tremendous shock.

it gets so damn tiring reading this drek. There is no repeat no moral equivelency to a young girl having coffee with her father at a cafe the night before her wedding and an idiot who throws herself in front of a tank or bulldozer, whatever. So people who can't think, feel, or understand anything but their deep dislike of Jews/anything Jewish can just ... And please at least be honest, this has not one damn thing to due with Israel or as far as that goes with Palestinians, it's just an excuse to rail against Jews.

whatsoever to the victims. Do you think that the wife of a Palestinian victim cares, or should care, whether her husband died due to "collateral damage" or not?

Israel does not excercise as much caution as they should to avoid civilian casualties.

war, when you are scared to death, and if your not scared you are dead, soldiers tend to shoot first and regret later. Is there a difference in sorrow and in mourning of family members, or in the long lonely nights? No, not one iota. The difference is in the defender and the murderer. That must be remembered, if Israel had no need for self-defense, there would be a lot more Palestinian sons home with mothers, preparing for marriage, and a life. Please keep that in mind.

You know, like carrying out pointless actions that simply cause harm to the Palestinian populace? Like the settlements, for instance, or the blowing up of that apartment building, or the house demolitions?

I truely believe that if the early Israeli government had looked at themselves as part of the middle east and tried to come to terms with the Palestinians it would have worked and none of this would be happening right now.

They didn't want to do that, they made a willful choice to act as the West's "outpost of civilization" and they sealed that fate when they acted as junior partners for the French and British in their last stab at colonializem on the Suez.

and governments get foolish ideas, or commanders do, I personally have stated they should have used a sharpshooter to take that piece of filth out. Clean and no collateral damage. As for the house demolitions, I'd like to know if it works or not(as a deterent I mean).

so now it's okay if it's a detterent.

That's like saying "I want to know if suicide bombings work as a detterent."

It would be a poor argument in favor if it did, but not even that is available.

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Or are you getting confused and thinking that every Palestinian home that's destroyed belongs to a terrorist?

Hey, check the guidelines sometime. I think Hitler and Nazi comparisons aren't allowed. Oh yeah. And try reading the Oslo Accords and also the road-map that the PA Prime Minister signed....


Violet...

Is people like you who cry so much for the civilian Israeli lives and don't give a hoot for the civilian Palestinians lives lost. Israel's killed three times more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed.

It's not that I don't care about Israeli lives. I'm just tired of caring only for Israeli lives like some people here appear to. It makes me sick. Honestly. Nobody cares about the Palestinians getting murdered in so called self-defense. Oh yeah, blowing up an entire apartment building for the rumors of a Hamas leader being inside it is "self-defense" and not murder/terrorism. This really makes me so sick.

With force.

The UN would be the best.

I like the idea that has been circulating of basically having the UN draw up the final agreement and imposing it on both sides. We all know what the broad terms of a settlement should be...two states, joint recognition, a bindng peace treaty, no settlements, some sort of right of return or compenstation for refugees, etc.

Let's declare them now and coerce both sides into compying.

It may not work, but we have to do something when horrendous tragedies like this are becoming a regular event for both populations.

This whole thing would be over instantly.

that normally would work, but it hasn't worked for 55 years now and it ain't gonna start working now. When you have two groups so full of historic hatred toward each other, nothing short of a nuclear bomb will ever stop the carnage. I don't think anything will ever work for very long a time.

They need to be stopped.

yeah......lets negotiate with them.

What did that comment have to do with anything? Hamas was NEVER a party to the road-map, don...

Violet...

Both David Applebaum and his daughter Neva Applebaum
were both US citizens.

While I absolutely agree with you on the point, I note that you have NEVER said that about the murders committed by the State of Israel.

Hypocrite.

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the same condemnations of Israel's terrorism as there are condemnations of Hamas. Sorry you fail to see the seriousness in this request.

point fingers at the other side while remaining blind to your own.

what do you think 'my own' side is?

I have had you confused with a different poster.After going back and reading what posts of yours I could find I can see that I was wrong,and for that I'm truly sorry to have mischaracterized you in the way I have.

There's no excuse for my mistake,but I hope you'll forgive my making it.

no offense taken.

Thank you for understanding.

like Resistance was condemning both sides. That's unlike the other person.

I made a mistake regarding Resistance,one that I'm sorry for.

I condemned the bombing of that building where
the military head of hamas was killed.

but I dont confuse terrorism with counter-terrorism
...a point that endlessly seems to escape you.

Yeah, you can say "israeli terrorism" until you
orgasm, but thats just a pathetic way for you to
find some moral equivalence. I'm sure the families
of the 3 latest bombings will be sooo happy to hear
your rap.

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especially with your repetitive "israeli terrorism"
inflammatory ranting, but i just dont feel like getting
banned tonite.

more's the pity.

n/t

I'll try harder for you next time.

:thumbsup:

I don't care one way or another if someone does or doesn't condemn or not condemn some action or another or trying to keep track of who did or didn't.

I think the whole thing is Israel's fault and other people can think the whole thing is the Palestinians fault (I come to my conclusion based mainly on the fact that the Palestinians didn't go anywhere so they couldn't start a fight). That's the whole argument: "It's X's fault".

It doesn't bother you to hear round condemnations of Palestinian terrorism, followed by excuse after excuse for Israeli terrorism?

I do the same thing, I think the human bombs are useless and destroy lives but I'm not going to sit around and pretend it's the worst thing that ever happened ever.

Probably the Israeliphiles think pretty much the same stuff about Israeli attrocities but think that it's retaliation for Palestinian attrocities.

I'm not going to be hypocritical about it, I think they are wrong and I am right but I don't expect them to cry a river over Palestinian kids. In their mind it was an "accident" no matter what and something the Palestinians brought down on themselves for challenging their Holy State and trying to be treated like human beings.

However, how can we say for 100% certain that they were not dangerous to the Palestinians?

If they voted in favor of a man who they knew would intensify occupation for the Palestinians, then most Palestinians might consider them to be dangerous. Also, almost every Israeli citizen is called upon to serve in IDF. Some would consider people like that to be dangerous.

Plus, I also have to add that many Palestinians don't know what an Israeli is like outside of the dangerous IDF because IDF is all that they ever see of Isrealis. To know that most of them become a part of the IDF at some time or another probably makes them see many Israelis as monsters.

I'm not saying that I agree with this logic, but that might be how many Palestinians look at this subject.

the two people you are wondering about, ("how can we say for certain that they were not dangerous to the Palestinians?"), were Americans. We hear much about the dreadful death of another American, Rachael Corrie, (I agree, it was absolutely horrible), and I don't think she was a danger to the bulldozer any more than these two people were to the Palestinians.

The worst thing about the deaths taking place in that troubled region is that death has become a kind of "good ol' boy" and the ritual goes on and on. It matters much to me as a human being, who is dying. Children, old people, men and women going about their daily lives...I don't give a damn about their political beliefs, their nationalities or which side of the line they live on...they are innocents that end up very, very dead.

It no longer matters who is killing who or for what reason...death is very cavalier and frighteningly opportunistic. Dead is dead. Whether it's a Palestinian child caught in crossfire or an Israeli child eating pizza. I don't count the numbers...after a while the numbers become meaningless because we become numb. It matters when no one cares. It matters when only death is the winner.

I don't know how it will end. I don't know IF it will end,I just hate seeing death win on both sides. I want it to stop. That's all.

I should have read that better.

I have to say that I don't think that killing Americans has been the intention of the people who killed the father/daughter or Rachel Corrie.

It is nice to see somebody who cares about people dying on both sides though.

Head of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society Emergency Medical Service. Killed on March 4th, 2002 when IDF forces fired on his ambulance as it was transporting an injured girl through the Jenin refugee camp. Sounds like a real dangerous person that had to be murdered.

http://www.ifrc.org/docs/news/02/030702/

the one stuffed with guns and ammunition?

..the one stuffed with dying human beings. Not that it really mattered to the IDF. After all, they were just Palestinians.

have no idea why this phrase keeps coming up? Israelis do no not say or believe this garbage. That's right out of Palestinian propoganda. I am sorry you have bought into the murderers rhetoric.

And Palestinians aren't murderers. You made yet another false claim that this ambulance was stuffed with explosives when it wasn't, and you implied that the death of this doctor was justified. Pretty sickening implication, as far as I'm concerned...

Violet...

if it were the same one. If anyone chooses to aide terrorists, they are putting their lives in danger, pity but that's the way it is. Please don't confuse what I said, you know I was referring to terrorists. As for being Israeli, how do you know?

You seem to be a bit confused about that. And you asked if it was the same one because you wanted anyone reading to think that it was. Unfortunately most of us read articles that get linked to, so if you'd bothered reading it yr question would have been unneccesary...

How do I know yr not Israeli? Well, gee. Maybe the US flag as yr avator and yr profile telling us yr from Texas is a bit of a hint? ;)

Violet...

classic

Not even the IDF:


http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/03/medics030902.htm <snip>

'Initial explanations from the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) indicated that the ambulance was fired on when it was observed to be speeding towards a group of Israeli soldiers.'

On 9/11 I remembered ALL innocent victims of terrorism. Those who died in Afghanistan, US, Iraq, Indonesia, Israel, the Palestinians, and everywhere else in the world.