Palestine: It's All Over

>snip

But successive Israeli governments did have a long-term plan. No matter who was in power, the roads got built, the water stolen, the olive and fruit trees cut down (a million), the houses knocked over (12,000), the settlements imposed (300), the shameless protestations of good faith issued to the US press (beyond computation).

As the new millennium shambled forward, surely it became impossible to believe any Israeli claim to be bargaining, or even to wish to bargain, in good faith. By now the "facts on the ground" in Israel were as sharply in focus as one of Dali's Surrealist paintings.

In May of this year the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, came to Washington and addressed a joint session of Congress at which he declared: "I believed, and to this day still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land." In other words, he doesn't recognize the right of Palestinians to even the wretched cantons currently envisaged in his "realignment." Why should Hamas believe a syllable of Olmert's poppycock?

In Olmert's "realignment" plan the "separation barrier," now scheduled to be Israel's permanent "demographic border," annexes 10 percent of the West Bank, while melding into Israel vast settlements and hundreds of thousands of settlers. The Palestinians lose their best agricultural land and the water. Israel's Greater Jerusalem finishes off any possible viability for a separate Palestinian state. This Palestinian mini-archipelago of cantons is shuttered to the east by Israel's security border in the Jordan Valley.

More at;
The Nation

I'd say the basic strategy is what it was in 1948: population transfer, to be achieved by making life so awful for Palestinians that most of them will depart,
oops the palestenain post disagrees:...Damn those facts, they really ruin the "evil israeli scenario" what to do?...ignore them!


The first article describes the Arab dilemma of whether they should leave a Jewish-controlled Haifa. Notice that these decisions are being made after the major fighting is over, while the truce is being negotiated. These Arabs, at least, were clearly not leaving because of war.

Notice also how the Haganah is bending over backwards to try to respect the rights of the Arab citizens of Haifa, pledging to protect their property and clearly expecting them to return. This is not the behavior of people who are trying to ethnically cleanse an area.

http://palestinepostings.blogspot.com/2005_06_12_palestinepostings_archive.html


and
But successive Israeli governments did have a long-term plan....the writer knows little of israeli politics....one shouldnt write out of ignorence...

:eyes:

Just a note, when you are accusing a source of ignorance, you might want to take the time to run spell check, or learn how to spell ignorant. ;-)

:rofl:

those days are long gone....and i also dont believe we have to listen to such BS, which is what the article is....

....i never was good with spelling and sometimes forget to run the spell check...though i am improving.

You may want to have a more progressive attitude than castigating someone who doesn't use English every day and actually lives in the area.

Makes you look ignorant.

just trying to help them out.

However, I'll admit to being sarcastic with regard to context of the original post. I don't agree with what the poster posted. Is that okay with you? Does that pass progressive muster?

:eyes:

research by both Jewish and Palestinian scholars.

I now what to expect now, you are going to call me a "moran".

in this conflict no matter who is doing the research or writing is full of BS.....it simply doesnt exist.

but to write this:
Whole communities are famished and sick, cut off by Israel from food and medicine.

which communities are now "famished" which villages have people starving to death?..which? i want some names so i can go and deliver some food!!!

or did he just make it up?....thats why its BS and those that believe such crap are "ignorent" and anything else that fits

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responsibility for the humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza.

1. ACSUR Las Segovias
2. Asamblea de Cooperación por la Paz (ACPP)
3. Campaign for the Children of Palestine
4. Comitato Internazionale per lo Sviluppo dei Popoli (C.I.S.P)
5. Centro regionale d'Intervento per la Cooperazione (CRIC)
6. Diakonia
7. EDUCAID
8. Enfants du Monde - Droits de l'Homme
9. Enfants refugies du monde
10. FCD Solidarité Socialiste
11. Gruppo Volontariato Civile (GVC) Italy
12. HAGAR Centers for Rehabilitation
13. Handicap International
14. International Christian Committee
15. International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy (IRFAN - Canada)
16. Italian Consortium of Solidarity
17. Japan International Volunteer Center
18. Medical Aid for Palestine (MAP-UK)
19. Médecins du Monde France
20. Médecins du Monde Suisse
21. Médecins du Monde Greece
22. Mennonite Central Committee
23. Mercy Corps
24. Merlin
25. Middle East Aid
26. Movimiento por la paz, el Desarme, y la Libertad (MPDL)
27. Norwegian Church Aid
28. Norwegian People's Aid (NPA)
29. Quaker Service- Jerusalem (American Friends Service Committee)
30. Save the Children Sweden
31. Save the Children UK
32. Solidaridad Internacional
33. Swedish Organization for Individual Relief (SOIR)
34. Swedish Cooperative Centre (SCC)
35. Volontariato Internazionale per lo Sviluppo (VIS)
36. World Vision Jerusalem
37. Last, and certainly least, Tom Joad.

The list who feel that the above are "willfully ignorant"
1. Pelsar
Are their international organizations that you could add to the latter list that i don't know about?

From Q & A
http://www.icahd.org/eng/faq.asp?menu=9&submenu=1
Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

Since the start of the Oslo negotiations how many houses have been demolished

During the Oslo negotiations (1993-2000), some 740 homes demolished. Another 5,000 homes have been demolished from the start of the second Intifada (October 2000) through 2004.

How many houses have been demolished since the Occupation began.
Since 1967, 12,000 houses Palestinian homes have been demolished in the Occupied Territories, including East Jerusalem. Israel’s policy of house demolitions seeks to confine Palestinians to small enclaves, leaving most of the land free for Israeli settlement.

Did Israel continue building by-pass roads after the Oslo process began?
During the Oslo negotiations Israel began building a massive system of 480 kilometers of Israel-only "by-pass" roads, at a cost of $3 billion. The project continues to this day (May 2002), creating "facts on the ground" that make the de facto incorporation of the West Bank into Israel irreversible..
Why are the West Bank by-pass roads important?
Since 1967, Israel has built 350 kilometers of highways and by-pass roads in the West Bank, linking the settlements to Israel proper while creating barriers to Palestinian movement. Today (May, 2002) Palestinians are unable to move and work freely, to market their goods, to live normal lives.

i noticed a tendency of yours to avoid making direct statements...always using others:

the article states:


Whole communities are famished and sick......

do you agree or disagree with that statement...

_______________________________________________

your above article, which i don't necessary disagree with says the Palestinians cant walk around freely... i know that....but thats not what the article said.

I noticed you don't say much:...perhaps its time you came "clean".....say it simply: should all of the arab refugees and their relatives be returned to israel (including those that left voluntarily) and israel in essence disappear and be replaced with one more arab/muslim ruled country......if this is what you believe than just say it...its not hard.


(long lists of people who agree with something, doesnt mean anything...check out the "flat earth society"....or perhaps the list of people who believe we caused the 9/11 or those who believe israel attacked the liberty on purpose.....its not a good quality to believe something just because somebody else does.... quite the opposite.)


______________________________

and the final
if the crises is SO bad, why is the hamas equiping their new forces with new weapons and ammunition:

In Gaza, where it has enough guns, Hamas has been buying up bullets, Palestinian security sources said.
Arms dealers and an Israeli military source said black market bullets were now selling for $1 each -- a steep price in areas where up to half the people live on less than $2 per day.


In the West Bank, Hamas has been buying M-16 rifles. Dealers said heavy demand and a lack of supply have sent prices soaring to as much as $13,000 each, up from $5,400 a year ago.

While the arsenals of the forces have been growing, they have also increased recruitment.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L08573680.htm

and the right of refugees to return to their land.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/
Human Rights Watch has long defended the right of refugees and exiles to return to their homes. We have upheld this right both when international borders were settled - Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Malawi, Burma, Mauritania - and when they were in dispute - Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, East Timor, Ethiopia/Eritrea. Human Rights Watch similarly urges that this right be recognized for all displaced people in the Middle East, regardless of religion or nationality. In the case of the Middle East peace agreement currently being negotiated, the agreement should recognize this right for Palestinian refugees and exiles from territory located in what is now Israel or in what is likely to be a future state of Palestine. Recognition should accord with the following principles:

The right is held not only by those who fled a territory initially but also by their descendants, so long as they have maintained appropriate links with the relevant territory. The right persists even when sovereignty over the territory is contested or has changed hands. If a former home no longer exists or is occupied by an innocent third party, return should be permitted to the vicinity of the former home.

As in the case of all displaced people, those unable to return to a former home because it is occupied or has been destroyed, or those who have lost property, are entitled to compensation. However, compensation is not a substitute for the right to return to the vicinity of a former home should that be one's choice.
<snip>
Like all rights, the right to return binds governments. No government can violate this right. Only individuals may elect not to exercise it. http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/

I wonder how that would sit with those countries, many of them completly Judenreined at this point?

It seems only to be brought up as a way to say that since this injustice happened, then we can't talk about the injustice in Palestine, not in the context of asserting the rights of these refugees to return.

But according to international law, they should have a right to return. They can make the individual choice not to return.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/101conflict.shtml#8
A: In the wake of the 1948 war, the backlash against Jews in the Arab world was often severe. Anger over the growing Zionist movement had been building throughout the 1940s, and it was too often directed at Arab Jewish communities, regardless of those communities? views of the Zionist project in Palestine.

British and French colonialism had created great hostility toward those countries in the Arab world. This resulted in a higher level of antipathy toward Jews than was normal for the Muslim world historically, though as has generally been the case, such anti-Semitism was far less severe than what existed at the time in Europe.
Israel initiated airlift and other emigration programs to bring in as many Jews from Middle Eastern countries as possible. Sadly, the treatment these new ?migr?s received in Israel was far from what they had expected (for more information, see Tom Segev's book, 1949: The First Israelis).

Still, there is no doubt that many Arabs simply reacted out of fear and anger toward their own Jewish neighbors after the war that saw Israel?s birth and the expulsion of some 750,000-1,000,000 Arabs from what had once been called Palestine. The Arab world itself was only just emerging from the era of European colonialism in the wake of World War II, and instability was the rule of the day throughout the Middle East. As is often the case, minorities, especially Jews, are all too typical victims of such upheaval. return to top

Many do not want to return to Israel, unless it becomes Palestine.

"It seems only to be brought up as a way to say that since this injustice happened, then we can't talk about the injustice in Palestine, not in the context of asserting the rights of these refugees to return." That is your opinion.

It seems only to be brought up as a way to say that since this injustice happened, then we can't talk about the injustice in Palestine, not in the context of asserting the rights of these refugees to return.

the question is if you can keep it out of the theory and deal with the reality of it...what are the consequences of their return, not just to the present state of israel but for its inhabitants, their civil rights etc.

to begin with, since the UN resolutions are in effect based on western values...i'm assuming (and this is just an assumption) that somehow its presumed that the Palestinians return would result in a democratic state based on civil rights and not some form of fascist/religious dictatorship as we see in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Gaza etc

what are the chances of a Democratic, civil rights oriented state emerging?..or is that not relevant to someone who wouldn't have to live with the consequences?

your big on "declarations" and making condemnations....what about dealing with reality..where decisions have real consequences

can you do it?....I'll be happy to supply some real scenarios....(or will you avoid them, as you have in the past?)...

one simple condition: no "factual" statements that cant be backed up with reasonable sources

some of use live in the real world where not everyone has western elite cultural values.....

so in answer to your question, some of the arab countries wouldnt be so thrilled with it, but more to the point, many of the jews who left would never go back.....living in an antisemetic environment really isnt much fun......

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights....and they are the present Palestinian leadership......and was voted in by the palestenains...and you seem to believe that a hamas run "single state' without civil rights (i.e. a fascist dictatorship as in iran, where they hang homosexuals) is far better than two separate states....

so i get to this conclusion..but feel free to correct me:
civil rights and values take a second place to "nationalism" (which is the essence of the Palestinian return is all about, according to the Palestenians)