MK Erdan to demand Israel cut Gaza's electricity

JPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 12, 2006

Likud MK Gilad Erdan was expected to call on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Finance Mnister Avraham Hirschson on Tuesday during a speech in front of the Knesset Plenum to cut Gaza's electricity supply, which is provided by Israeli power plants.

Erdan was expected to cite a both a debt of NIS 300 million to the Israel Electric Authority by the Palestinian Authority, as well as the Kassam rocket attacks at Israel.

Erdan will call for the immediate cutting off of electricity until the Hamas-led PA puts an end to the attacks and arrests those responsible for carrying them out.

Link;
JPost

:beer:

:spray:

Let's just see what happens and how magically, the Palestinian Authority doesn't get the bulk of the blame for the power plants (let's not say where) be magically cut off (let's not say by whom). In fact, let's pretend the PA cut off the power plants themselves, because that's really the argument here, isn't it? That dastardly PA! Cutting off electricity to itself. Where will it end!?

the palestenains are shooting at the powerplant...whether intentional or not is "up for discussion"...but its south of ashkelon....right in the path of the kassams/katushas.

maybe they'll get "lucky' and hit one of their own transformers....

You mean.. the Israeli Electric Authority doesn't own and run them?

Wow. You learn something new every day. I would've thought that firing into Israel meant that they were shooting at you know, Israeli stuff.

was a term used to meant the electricty from those transformers "goes to gaza"....just a term....no need to get all upset.

not the homes they live in, the schools they go to (or try to go to), the beaches they play on, the wedding parties they cannot attend, the crops they cannot harvest, the internationals who want to visit them. Nothing seems to be recognized by Israel.

dont recognize israeli rights to anything:

not the homes they live in, the schools they go to (or try to go to), the beaches they play on, the wedding parties they cannot attend, the crops they cannot harvest, the internationals who want to visit them. Nothing....

thats why they keep shooting missles across the border from gaza in to israel and from Lebanon in to israel

of the innocent people on the beach in Gaza.. ...

All we ever hear is that Israel will "look into it" .. .and then nothing --

Seems like this round was started deliberately by Israel so they can continue their genocide against the Palestinians by using collective punishment.

Both sides are behaving like jerks -- or like 8 year old. As usual the innocents will suffer because of racism and hatred.

This dumb ass hatred is older than any person alive on EARTH -- and it will continue -- killing -- long after ALL of us are dead.

I have nothing but contempt for both sides -- because they have more in common than not, with each other. According to bible mythology they share a common ancestor.

See, Hamas knew that Israeli commandos would be heading to THAT EXACT SPOT to detonate the mine. That's how evil they are. And it just so happens that a civilian family went to THAT EXACT SPOT first and ruined Hamas' evil scheme to kill more Jews. Israel can't conclusively prove that it was an artillery shell so, logically operating from the principle of Israel not doing any evil unless it can be conclusively proven to have happened, it's plausible, according to evidence the IDF collected and is keeping to itself, that the shrapnel was bomb-caused and the explosion occured from below. So, you see, it's all Hamas' fault!

(Somewhat paraphrasing from tonight's Ha'aretz)

Edit: Sarcasm aside, I think that, from an organizational point of view, if you're not sure it wasn't one of your own artillery shells because you're not really all that sure where they're firing or when because it's so routine no one cares anymore, that is something of a problem. And not just because it's a PR hit or something.

all shells are watched for where they land for accuracy...unless they are "over the horizon"....and duds which there are, dont make an explosion and hence where they fall no one knows.

palestenain mines?....all over the border...thats why they put them in several places...so if and when the IDF does enter they may step on them

and actually its the palestenians that are keeping the shrapnel....

not very knowledgeable or accurate....

and refers to Palestinians being treated in Israeli hospitals.

And my point was uh, blindingly simple

If all shells are watched for where they land for accuracy, why the hell couldn't they have ruled out that this was an Israeli shell within 30 minutes of the incident? Something's not right there, and what you said, is what I would have expected from the army of a civilized nation, so I don't understand what the problem here was.

I also don't know who refers to a waterline of a beach where civilians walk around for a day off as a "border". But, I wouldn't know, because the IDF hasn't exactly provided any evidence it knows of more mines in that area than the single one it blames for this explosion.

But hey, you know what, I really don't like arguing with you. You can stay king of this forum if you like. I've cited my source. If Ha'aretz is full of baloney on this, so be it. It's not my concern anymore.

the army has the air force, the navel, ground units and artillery units involved....before the spokesmen open their mouths there are quite a few people to talk to (perhaps it was a mortar from ground unit in the area?)....They would have to account for all of those units, that takes time.

the beach itself was the northern beach, once part of the "settlements" as well as a potential entry for the IDF....mines are present as are duds

Haaretz writes that the shrapnel is with the palestenains......

I'm just correcting your misconceptions....i happen to no a bit more about how armies operate as well as the geography of the area.

And you must think I can't read.

"
* The shrapnel. Three people wounded in the blast are now hospitalized in Israel. Shrapnel was apparently removed from their bodies, and this is likely to reinforce the conclusion that the explosion was caused by a bomb
rather than a shell."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/726162.html

Now, this latest version has the IDF claiming that intel says Hamas has been extensively mining that beach. Fair enough, if it's true. Except that this article says it's WITHIN THE LAST FEW WEEKS. That has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Also your explanation about spokesmen needing to talk to so many people... I'm trying to be respectful but, this directly contradcits your previous post. You're essentially arguing now that Israel has so many assets firing so many rounds into Gaza that THEY CAN'T KEEP TRACK. If the IDF *knows* it wasn't an artillery round or some other piece of Israeli ordinance, what the hell does it need shrapnel analysis and tales of anti-commando mines for? This smacks of "a likely story".

But, why believe me. I'm just a stupid person whose misconceptions you're correcting. Like that part about the Palestinians firing at their own power plants above. I would never have guessed that one.

Edit: I feel compelled to add something because the info being put out that right around the same time the IDF had been shelling Gaza and one shell cannot be conclusively accounted for, but the IDF has been working hard on clearing itself of the possibility, which it cannot really prove, apparently, that the shell killed the civilians. Yeah well, good luck to them. A pox on both those who think Israel can do nothing good and those who think it can do nothing wrong, IMHO.

Though even this version completely eviscerates your attempt to change the subject to having to consult with air force, navy, etc, forces, who apparently weren't firing into the area like the IDF ground forces were. I just have a basic problem with your coming in and arguing I and others should defer to your superior knowledge (because mine sucks, apparently) while you distort details reported by a major Israeli daily to suit a preconceived result. I don't begrudge your political beliefs. Or Jim Sagle's for that matter. But I was not born yesterday.

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Because the people who report for that paper don't live in the region either? Is that it?

My world view, to be blunt, is to judge the world on the basis of facts that can be verified, and not to trust the word of the self-interested blindly. Nothing I say is going to stop pelsar from throwing up smokescreens, no. I would like to think that doesn't mean I should hide under a rock and take at face value everything he says because he's in the region. Apparently you disagree.

Well, I'm sorry then.

P.S. I don't believe hardly anything at all that comes from Palestinian political organizations, be it Fatah, Hamas, the PLO, or splinter groups thereof. But that's not at issue whatsoever on this thread. The issue is, apparently, the authority argument fallacy, be it pelsar or the IDF. My regrets that I don't feel like opening my mind enough for someone to drive an oil tanker through.

the "facts" from a newspaper cant all be "verified"...we just believe their correct, even though i know of instances where haaretz was simply wrong in their description of some events.....nor do i throw up smokescreens, i do however correct when possible (which i believe is what your referring to). Your knowledge for instance of the land mines in gaza is simply lacking. Either you didnt know for instance about the tanks or jeeps blown up in the past or it wasnt appropriate to remember them. I simply remember getting brief on them (starting in 1990....). Not to mention your theory in where and how they're placed - really, stick to what you know....dont make up stuff, i then feel i have to correct you, which i believe you inturn call a smoke screen.

Nor would i expect anyone to believe what the IDF says all the time at face value, i dont. However in this particular instance you've shown that you have little understanding of the forces in the area, the ROE and how a large cumbersome organization like the IDF works.....30 minutes is hardly enough time to even call up the hundreds of commanders involved with their forces in the area and ask them what they saw/heard and where they are.....

i just find it strange that for someone who has very little knowledge of the groups involved your so fast to state 'facts"....maybe ask first?....I'll tell you what i know (sometimes i'm out of date, sometimes not)

I'm in fact quite well aware of mines having blown up tanks and jeeps, but those mines were not placed in the area we've been discussing!!! And therefore, a complete irrelevancy.

I'm sorry, this forum is not called Ask Pelsar, it's called Israel/Palestine, and last I knew, even here, people are supposed to have the right to speculate on something even with limited knowledge and ask questions. And I like getting RELEVANT facts. Your words "or it wasn't appropriate to remember them" is simply deeply personally insulting.

And if the IDF is so cumbersome I'd rather you have not given me that story about how the IDF checks where every shell lands. You're not willing to say it, so I will: the reason the IDF didn't clear itself based on not having been firing artillery in the general area at the time of the explosion is because IT CAN'T. It was firing at the time, which makes the explosion a tremendous, remarkable coincidence; and furthermore it can't account for all the shells that were fired at the time.

I'm sure you know more about the groups than I do, but I'm not as stupid as you think. That undercuts your lording over your knowledge over everyone so that no one else's logic or observations are respected, though. I understand that. I don't take it personally. But you're not getting the point. How long has it been since this firing? Days. Days! And they can't rule out an artillery shell except by building up the mine possibility because someone made a mistake, completely irrespective of whether or not a mine blew up these civilians or not (which would be a sad tragedy regardless). If it's just the IDF suffering from one hell of an awfully suspicious-looking coincidence, that's a shame. But ANY artillery man in ANY army knows that if you fire on the edge of a civilian area, and you miss, bad things happen. Spin can only cover so much.

Edit: I've decided this'll be my last post here. We're not debating facts, we're debating pelsar's worthiness to be trusted (far) more than Israeli news sources in all matters regarding Israel and Palestine. I refuse to be a blind sheep for either side in this, but that position is simply not being treated in a civil, respectful manner here. As I said long before, I don't need to be king of the bleeping hill here. I'll take my intellectual honesty and my glove and go home.

the IDF has multiple assets around gaza....naval, air, ground....and all the commanders have a certain amount of autonomy as to what they do and when. It would be rather foolish of the IDF spokesman not to check with them before saying something....more so checking the shrapnel is getting additional information....is there a problem with checking all the angles?


from the same article in haaretz

"Moreover, the Palestinians will have their own experts analyzing the shrapnel removed from the wounded treated in Gaza, and they will doubtless present conclusions contrary to those of the Israeli experts."

initial reports (could now have changed) was that the the patients in the israeli hospitals had no shrapnel as it was all removed)


mining in gaza has been going on for years....ever hear years ago when two tanks were blown up (mines) not to mention several jeeps? Just because you've never heard about it, or arent aware hardly means it hasnt been happening, quite the contrary. And though it was never mentioned, N. Gaza was a favorite target of Palestinian mortars....and many of those didnt explode.

i understand that you neither military experience nor have you been to gaza....so i think its reasonable to assume that you have little understandings of how military units operate nor the geography of gaza, let alone the character of war in gaza today.....i do

One that was psychic, since it knew in advance where these idf commandos were going to land on
the beach, & one that was supernatural, since it was able to mimic an artillery barrage of more
than one explosion.

The beach was hit by a barrage of shells, one particular shell landed on this family, that
particular point is being obscured.

source?

"Seven people, including three children, died on Friday when Israeli shells hit a beach in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian officials say."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5065982.stm

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/barrage

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=123041#123582

and not turning over to the PA for paying down the electricity debt.

Does electricity consumption outrun duty collection these days?

But it is an interesting question: Would this be collective punishment? It would involve turning off the electricity to a large number of civilians. Would it matter if they don't pay their bills?

However, the electricity is sold to the PA, the PA is still under Abbas but with a strong Hamas contingent. Hamas is at something akin to war with Israel. Does one have a moral obligation to provide energy to a self-declared enemy?

No shortage of ethical dilemmas with P/I issues, is there?

"Likud MK Gilad Erdan was expected to call on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Finance Minister Avraham Hirschson on Tuesday during a speech in front of the Knesset Plenum to cut Gaza's electricity supply.."

and anybody who thinks its kewwwl to cut electricity to the
old and children is one too ...

<snip>

"The Palestinian government plans to build an electrical facility in Egypt that will allow it to take power from Egypt, weaning itself off more expensive Israeli electricity, a Palestinian official said on Sunday.

Suleiman Abu Samhadana, Palestinian undersecretary for energy and electricity, told reporters at the Rafah border crossing in northern Egypt that authorities in Cairo had approved the project, which would cost e15 million and cut the Gaza Strip's electricity bill by 44 percent.

He said the Kuwait Development Fund would bear the costs of the plant, which would be built five km (three miles) into Egypt from the Egypt-Gaza border.

Abu Samhadana was on his way to Cairo to attend meetings with Egyptian officials on implementing the project."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/728284.html