! Hamas agrees to Israeli state, what excuse does Bush have now

Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel's right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.

In a bitter struggle for power, Hamas is bowing to an ultimatum from the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to endorse the document drawn up by Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli jails, or face a national referendum on the issue that could see the Islamist group stripped of power if it loses.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1803008,00.html

how Olmert responds.

:shrug:

:shrug:

The Palestinians have renounced terrorism and recognized and re-recognized and re-re-recongnized Israel going back to Arafat's announcements in 1986, which, when the first announcement wasn't phrased correctly, he went on television the next night and read whatever language was required at the time, and NBC's John Chancellor famously noted, "It would appear that Israel will not take 'yes' for an answer."

That is why most of the civilized world is refusing to do business with the Palestinian government.

That's the actual headline.

http://www.jmcc.org/documents/prisoners.htm

"1- the Palestinian people in the homeland and in the Diaspora seek to liberate their land and to achieve their right in freedom, return and independence and to exercise their right in self determination, including the right to establish their independent state with al-Quds al-Shareef as its capital on all territories occupied in 1967 and to secure the right of return for the refugees and to liberate all prisoners and detainees based on the historical right of our people on the land of the fathers and grandfathers..."

Doesn't sound like an agreement that Isreal should exist to me. A state in Gazaand on the West Bank is only a subset of the "rights" of the Palestinians. The "land" refers to all of the land. The "right of return" is a dangerous fantasy by which the Palestinians hope to destroy Isreal demographically through unrestricted immigration. Isreal will never allow it, nor will the large numbers of Jews expelled from Arab countries ever want to go back and reclaim their property.

Also note the discalimer at the bottom of the document about "the negotiations" - talks with Israel. Islamic Jihad does not think that even that should happen, nor does a big chunk of Hamas. This is just a smokescreen to confound well-meaning but ignorant people.

First, that document is dated May 11, 2006. If the announcement is that old, then this doesn't belong in Latest Breaking News.

Second, the very quote you picked from the document specifically draws a line based "on all territories occupied in 1967," which would actually constitute the original UN partitiion to the Palestinians.

And the notion that this would "destroy Israel" only means that it would destroy a legally-enforced and mandated racial majority of Israeli Jews. Much like South Africa, that legally enforced and mandated racial majority could be dissolved.

if gaza and the westbank is anything to go one...letting the refugees etc return to israel is more like destroying the a democratic country that has a foundation in civil rights and replacing it with a hamasnik kohmenni style theorcratic govt...something all liberals crave....

Herein lies the basic problem (from the Hamas Charter, which to date, has not changed):

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm
Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with....

1. The document I linked to is the document drawn up by high-profile prisoners convicted of murder in Israeli jails. They produced this document, which Abbas has been waving around, challenging Hamas to endorse it. The document is old, but the endorsement by Hamas is new.

2. The Guardian, and other newspapers in the West, have been sold a bill of goods - the claim that this document recognizes Israel's right to exist. It does nothing of the sort.

3. The reference to a state based on "on all territories occupied in 1967," is a minimalist position, a subset of Palestinian "rights". Declaring that you can have a state "on all territories occupied in 1967," does not prevent you from later claiming that that state should have even MORE territory.

4. Currently Israel is a Jewish-majority state. The Israelis have no intention to open up Israel to a huge influx of Palestinians whose main aim would be to destroy the democratic state of Israel and replace it with something more like what you see now in the West Bank.

5. Refusal to accept a massive influx of Palestinians is not apartheid. And Israeli Mulsim Arabs have full civil rights in Israel - they are equal under the law and have full voting rights. How many Jews in Arab countries can say that? For that matter, how many Arabs in Arab countries can say that?

6. This "announcement" by Hamas is a sham to try to get EU money. They still have every intention of destroying Israel and establishing a theocratic Islamic state.

7. Every opponent of religious fundamentalism, oppression of women and gays (who are routinely murdered in the West Bank and Gaza - see below) should be anti-Hamas.

http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/israel/isnews005.htm
http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26762.html

this is the DU, where such aspects as gay rights etc run a far second or third to nationalism.....in fact even mentioning it as an aspect of the palestenian state may be considered crossing "the line"

The article doesn't say what your subject line says it says, and even more moderate inferences are just that, inferences--possible but not necessary ones, at that.

Abbas has every reason to exaggerate, and Hamas has every reason to dawdle and obfuscate. It doesn't make the possible inferences false, just less likely.