Outpost attack almost legitimate

It may not be nice to say, but world will have hard time condemning Kerem Shalom attack

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267284,00.html

<snip>

"Palestinian sources call Sunday morning's attack on an IDF outpost near the Gaza border "Operation Fading Illusion". The Palestinian propagandists who coined the phrase had something else in mind, but Israel would also be wise to take note of the name: In many ways it describes the reality that will be created here after all the illusions the government has been selling us these past three years – realignment, separation fence, us here – them there – are put into place.

This is what post-West Bank withdrawal terror attacks will look like if there is no one on the other side with any true weight, and if all Palestinians do not have a clear interest in maintaining quiet: Long-range weapons like Qassams, occasional, well-planned operations with significant impact."

<snip>

"The attack on Kerem Shalom was conducted from deep inside the Palestinian consensus. And it may not be nice to say, but the world will have a hard time condemning it. It was an attack on soldiers, it took courage. It was not a cowardly act.

As much as it may disgust us, it is seen – against the recent, successive reports of civilian deaths as a result of IDF artillery – as almost legitimate. This significantly reduces the options available to Israel's government, the IDF and the media when responding to the attack."

What on earth would make this attack against occupying military more legitimate? Oh, I suppose if the Palestinians had helicopter gunships and APCs to work from....

If they had managed to kill some civilians it would be more legitimate :sarcasm:

Whatever.

A crushed and oppressed people fighting back in any way they can -- I have an even harder time calling that illegitimate.

Gazans are now in control of Gaza. The attack was accr4oss the border into Israel.

So you hate war and violence, unfless it's perpetrated by Gazans.
What do you suppose would be the legitimate response to the Gazans peace efforts?
Maybe opening the borders to make it easier for them? (It was really oppressive having to dig that tunnel)

I don't know what gives you the idea that they are, some pathetic limited withdrawal plan that was mostly for propoganda purposes aside.

The Gazans control their border with Egypt. Instead of celebrating, improving infrastructure, schools, their economy, thry're spending lives, time and hard cash trying to kill israelis.

Apparently, Gaza is NOT what they really want.

Heard time and again.

I see, so you're saying that Gaza is really what they've been wanting since the Egyptian occupation of 1948, and now they're so happy that they're attacking the Israelis (otherwise it's an "ant-jewish" conspiracy, or something you've heard before).

A conspiracy of fools is more like it.

...and full of displaced people and their descendents. Of course you know that.

Yes, that's the UNRWA definition of "paelstinian" refugees and only those somehow unique refugees.
It's seems as though they will have "refugee" status ad infinitum.

During a siege, it's a ggod idead to close the back door, it's much more effective.

But I guess for special "refugees" the definition of "siege" is also unique.

n/t

n/t

n.t

Because when it came to the PLO the letters of mutual recognition trump any Charter. In case you've already read it, this will refresh yr memory:

September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which will endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel’s right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization

http://www.palestine-un.org/peace/p_b.html

P.S. And Intifada if we don't get what we want.

Love, Yasser

You made a claim that was blatantly false. Why is it that you seem intent on being critical of the Palestinians to the point of ignoring facts?

Attacks by the IDF inside Gaza are almost a daily occurence. Perhaps if the IDF stopped treating Gaza as an internment camp gone feral, and just ignored the stupid rockets that can't hit anything for a week or two, there might be some progress.

As i remember, that resulted in actual deaths of British soldiers. It even seems to be celebrated. The fighters honored.

I think Palestinians could come up with a longer list of grievances than tom jefferson, too.

Anything the Gazans do is justifiable.

After the revolutionary war, when the Brits pulled out, did the Colonial forces continue to attack them? Blow up their women and children?
Did they attack the Brits who ran to Canada? Why not, it would certainly have been justifiable, no?

Would it have been legitimate? Only if the colonials were from Gaza.

UNRWA has never ruled anything of the sort. UNRWA's interest is wholely and solely on refugees....

I'm wondering how many more lame and worn out talking points there are to be trotted out....

The questions remain.

Would it have been legitimate for the Colonial forces to continue to attack the Brits after they pulled out of the 13 colonies? Would there have been a problem if they continued to kill the wives and children of the Brits (which of course they NEVER did, even during the war)

Would it have been legitimate for the colonials to fire missiles into Canada, where many Brits retreated after withdrawal?

UNRWA is concerned with only ONE group and only one group of special "refugees", unique in the world. Why's that?

Yet again, you made a false claim and seem intent on ignoring the reality. UNRWA has never supported everything done by the Palestinians, so why make such an absurd claim?

from different sources.

The first reporting of this seemed to be the usual -- the evil Palestinians are picking on the Israelis again. Then we learn that the macho Israeli Army had entered Gaza -- no doubt for their usual collective punishment of Innocent Palestinians (along with a few of the "bad" guys).

Ah .. now take a few steps back -- the attack was not a suicide bomber but of Palestinian soldiers attacking their perceived enemy -- Israeli soldiers in an outpost -- a military target.

My objections are still the same -- real people die and are injured on either side -- and each escalation forces the other side to become more violent -- and the blood shed continues ESPECIALLY of the innocents -- the children.

when there is no spilled blood, is a grievous injustice, and a great violence.

Pssst. Gaza is no longer occupied.

If you mention the Egyptian/Palestenian border it really ruins the "gaza is occupied" under seige, a prison camp, "the warsaw ghetto, etc. (did i forget anything?)....and if you remember that, all of a sudden, there is no "humanitariun crises, no "closure"...but the worst part?.....cant blame israel, and thats the real problem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=127191#127326

bill o' really and ann coulter and worldnetdaily (and the Israeli govt) all say that it is not occupied, and that the Palestinian are just innately evil and inept... yadda, yadda yadda.

B'Tselem et al are just a 'bunch of ***-hating communists', would be another response;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x128585#128592

From Btselem...

snip...

Even after disengagement, Israel continues to hold decisive control over central aspects of Palestinian life in the Gaza Strip: Israel controls Gaza's air space and territorial waters; Israel completely controls movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank; Israel controls the population registry, the entry of foreigners into Gaza, and family unification; Israel has substantial control over the movement of goods into Gaza and on the tax system in Gaza.

Israel's control over these issues confer upon it a legal obligation to respect the human rights of the more than one million residents of the Gaza Strip, at least in the areas over which it exercises control. This obligation exists regardless of whether Israel is considered the occupier of the area.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Special/20060426_Gaza_Status.asp

What entity, beyond WorldNetDaily, does not consider Gaza to be under occupation?

so because the "majority think one way..then that then is a "fact"....the majority once thought the world was flat.....

how can gaza be occupied when there is a border to Egypt that israel has no control over?.....that has imported in the past via thousands of trucks, goods?...perhaps instead of saying "that the majority thinks one way, therefore it must be true" (i believe we tell out kids when they're 5 or so to think for themselves...I never knew that was a time limited advice)

so perhaps you would like to explain about their southern border?...that israel has no control over?


btw...what kind of doublespeak is this:
This obligation exists regardless of whether Israel is considered the occupier of the area....so though israel is NOT the occupier its still responsble?

not to mention this little lie:
Israel controls...the entry of foreigners into Gaza, (check into the ISM site and their complaints against the egyptians...

Alert prevents opening of Gaza-Egypt crossing

<snip>

"An Israeli security alert prevented the opening of the Rafah border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt on Wednesday, officials said.

Rafah did not open as scheduled because the Israeli army closed the nearby Kerem Shalom passage into Gaza that is used by European monitors to gain access to Rafah."

<snip>

"We didn't order Rafah to shut," an army spokeswoman said. "They did it on the basis of Kerem Shalom."

Officials said the Rafah crossing could reopen in the afternoon.

A spokesman for the European monitors said: "We'll be ready to deploy (to Rafah) as soon as the alert is lifted."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21774213.htm

Israel issues a security alert and closes the Kerem Shalom passage, the European monitors cannot access Rafah, and the Rafah crossing (which Israel supposedly has no control over) closes.

Seems to me Israel exercises a measure of control here.

Israel issuses a security alert of its own.....the Europeans who for reasons that are unclear prefer to live in israel....they refuse to enter gaza via the norther entry Erez as a way to work.....hence they dont come to work for their own reasons.....

so as I understand when its europeans lives at stake the europeans deem it just fine not to come to work and hence close the Rafah border, during an israeli security alert.......its their choice....just as its the Egyptians and Palestenians choice to agree to the Europeans (sometimes)

since when does an israeli security alert bother anyone other than israelis?...

and of course the Europeans could easily live in Egypt or Gaza as opposed to Keren Shalom...again its their choice not israels.

believe the palestenian/egytian border doesnt exist.....ISM however has entered via Rafah..guess they know better.

Israel has placed restrictions on who can enter the border.

this is news for me...perhaps you have an recent link to something that shows that israel has the final say?...or anysay for that matter (I dont believe the Egyptians and Palestenains are aware of this...)

please dont use the fact that the europeans decided not to go to work because of any israeli alert...israel didnt force them to do anything.

and the ISMs who entered via Rafah last month, of which i'm sure your familiar with...did they see any israelis?

Israel's responsibility toward residents of the Gaza Strip

Scope of control

In September 2005, Israel completed the "disengagement plan" that was approved by the government and the Knesset. The two primary components of the plan were dismantling of the settlements there and moving the settlers to Israeli territory, and removal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip. After the plan was completed, Israel issued an order declaring the end of the military government in the Gaza Strip. The changes following disengagement resulted in some improvement in the ability of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to run their lives. Most importantly, they are now able to move about freely in most of the territory. However, following disengagement, Israel continued to hold decisive control over important elements of Palestinian life in the Gaza Strip, as follows :

1. Air space and territorial waters : Israel continues to maintain complete control over the air and sea space of the Gaza Strip. Control of the air space provides Israel with the ability to effectively and easily control actions on the ground, and to interfere with radio and television broadcasts. Control of the coastal area and territorial waters enables Israel , among other things, to restrict the activity of Palestinian fishermen. Israel 's control is also manifested in the need to obtain Israeli approval to operate a seaport and airport, the lack of which impairs freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip .

2. Population registry: Israel continues to control the population registry, which includes both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank . Formal authority for administering the population registry was transferred under the Oslo II Agreement , of 1995, to the Palestinian Authority, but in practice, Israel continued to hold most of the powers regarding the registry. Almost every change in the registry made by the Palestinian Authority, except for the registration of children whose two parents are residents of the Occupied Territories , requires the prior approval of Israel . Israel does not recognize changes made by the Palestinian Authority without its approval. The same has been true following disengagement. By controlling the population registry, Israel continues to determine who is a "Palestinian resident" and who is a "foreigner." Also, Israel requires the Palestinian Authority to obtain its approval before making any change in the address of a resident of the Gaza Strip who wants to move to the West Bank . This c ontrol of the population registry significantly affects a number of areas of life.


Entry of "foreigners": Despite the handover of the Rafah border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt to the control of the Palestinian Authority, Israel continues to control the entry into the Gaza Strip of persons who are not deemed residents of the Occupied Territories . According to the November 2005 agreement between the PA and Israel , the Palestinian Authority may permit entry into the Strip via Rafah only to "Palestinian residents," meaning individuals who are registered in the Palestinian population registry and hold Palestinian identity cards. Also, the Palestinian Authority must prevent the entry of Palestinian residents if Israel opposes their entry for security reasons. To ensure compliance with the agreement, European and American observers are posted at the Rafah crossing .


" Foreign" residents, except in exceptional cases, are only allowed to enter the Gaza Strip via the Kerem Shalom and Erez crossings, which are under Israel's sole control. Control over the entry of "foreigners" enables Israel to continue to control family unification between Gazans and their spouses who are foreign residents. Also, Israeli control plays a great role in social and economic matters in which the presence of experts from abroad is important .

3. Movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank: Israel continues to maintain complete control of the movement of people and goods between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank . This is the case also when the movement does not take place across Israeli territory. Israeli control is based on a military order that classifies the entire West Bank as a "closed military area," as to which entry and exit requires a permit issued by the military. Residents of Gaza who are caught in the West Bank without a permit, even if they have lived in the West Bank for years and established families there, are considered to be staying illegally in the area and are expelled to the Gaza Strip. As noted above, address change on a person's identity card from one area to the other requires Israel 's approval. In addition, Israel classifies many West Bank residents as "persons forbidden to go abroad," which also prevent s them from traveling to the Gaza Strip. Ongoing control of movement between the two areas is decisive in light of their mutual dependence: indeed, the two areas have functioned over the years as one territorial unit. The dependence is conspicuous in a number of key areas, such as public administration, health services, higher education, and trade. Also, most Gazans have close family and social ties with persons living in the West Bank , and vice versa .


4. Imports and Exports : Israel continues to exercise complete control over the movement of goods into the Gaza Strip. The three crossing points designated for this purpose – Karni, Sufa, and Kerem Shalom – are under Israel 's sole control. Rafah Crossing, the administration of which was handed over to the Palestinian Authority, has a terminal for the crossing of goods, but according to the November 2005 agreement, the crossing is limited to export s . Furthermore, t he PA's ability to export goods via Rafah Crossing is limited, given that most of the exports are intended for Israel or are shipped abroad via Israeli ports . As a result, most exports pass through Karni. The almost complete control of Israel over the movement of goods to and from the Gaza Strip means that closing of the commerical crossings, a frequent occurrence, paralyzes the Gaza Strip economy and causes a shortage of basic goods, including food and medicines.

5. The tax system: Relying on the arrangements made in the Paris Agreement (1994) between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, Israel continues to control most elements of the taxation system of the Gaza Strip: Israel is responsible for setting the VAT and customs rates on goods intended for consumption in the Gaza Strip, collecting these taxes for the Palestinian Authority, and transferring the tax monies to the Palestinian Authority each month. These powers enable Israel to punish the Palestinian Authority by stopping the transfer of the tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, which impairs the PA's ability to carry out basic functions of government such as paying salaries and providing humanitarian assistance.

6. Israel also controls the granting of exemptions from customs and VAT to non-profit humanitarian-aid organizations for products and equipment donated to them from abroad. This power is extremely significant: if not granted the exemption, an organization would have to pay the taxes that the importer would have to pay when the goods enter the Gaza Strip at one of the crossing points controlled by Israel.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Special/Gaza_Status.asp

israel has no videos to seen who is and who is not entering via Rafah, and when they did they were 8 minutes delayed..........hence no control from the israeli side

gaza is surrouned one three sides by israel...just like israel is surrounded on 3 sides by arab states..yet i never heard any israeli crying they were are in a "concentration camp, under seige, etc.

why are gazans attacking an israeli border post that is used for importing into gaza?....

i can only guess...they want to stop the importing of goods from there....and they've declared war on israel......


and when israel closes the crossing will there be "cries of humanitariun crises..while everyone forgets the there is an Egyptian/Palestenian border?....

Did Israel declare war on the Palestinians the day before when they crossed into Gaza to kidnap...err...nab two members of Hamas?


IDF enters Gaza, nabs 2 Hamas members

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3266639,00.html

protects sufa crossing and keren shalom.....attack the protecting soldiers, the crossings may have to close

israel is involved with a low level war against various jihadnikim...not against the palestenians....however if its war..then the rules change.

:thumbsup: