Look who's been kidnapped!

Hundreds of Palestinian 'suspects' have been kidnapped from their homes and will never stand trial

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3271505,00.html

<snip>

"It's the wee hours of the morning, still dark outside. A guerilla force comes out of nowhere to kidnap a soldier. After hours of careful movement, the force reaches its target, and the ambush is on! In seconds, the soldier finds himself looking down the barrel of a rifle.

A smash in the face with the butt of the gun and the soldier falls to the ground, bleeding. The kidnappers pick him up, quickly tie his hands and blindfold him, and disappear into the night."

<snip>

"This description, you'll be surprised to know, has nothing to do with the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It is the story of an arrest I carried out as an IDF soldier, in the Nablus casbah, about 10 years ago. The "soldier" was a 17-year-old boy, and we kidnapped him because he knew "someone" who had done "something."

We brought him tied up, with a burlap sac over his head, to a Shin Bet interrogation center known as "Scream Hill" (at the time we thought it was funny). There, the prisoner was beaten, violently shaken and sleep deprived for weeks or months. Who knows.

No one wrote about it in the paper. European diplomats were not called to help him. After all, there was nothing out of the ordinary about the kidnapping of this Palestinian kid. Over the 40 years of occupation we have kidnapped thousands of people, exactly like Gilad Shalit was captured: Threatened by a gun, beaten mercilessly, with no judge or jury, or witnesses, and without providing the family with any information about the captive.

When the Palestinians do this, we call it "terror." When we do it, we work overtime to whitewash the atrocity."

3 options:

open the door and shoot the palestenain.

take him to trial with the slow wheels of justice, a year later discover that he know about the suicide bomber that 2 days after his arrest killed 20 israelis in a mall and dismembered another 30

take him to a prison, weaken him, deprive him of sleep, threaten him until he tells of the suicide bomber and thereby not having 20 dead people.

______

of course some will say that his civil rights are far more important than the 20 dead and 30 blind, paralyzed, wheelchair bound, survivors of the suicide bomb.....but then, hes a palestenain and the others are just israelis.

happen to be reprisals for those midnight kidnappings?

Israel has done quite a few studies of such, from the sucide bombers who were caught.....

and most dont originate from any midnight raids or any personal experience with the IDF.....most of the suicide bombers are individuals who have been caught up in the "kill the jews/israeli mentality or they knew (relatives/friends) of those killed, were depressed and were vunerable for the handlers. The suicide bombers are "handled" through a very sophisticated system of finding the bomber etc.

The raids usually go after the older ones, the planners (though this is a broad generalization), not so much the acutal bombers, they're usually caught "in route)

when the kassams start falling on hadera, afula, jersualem...your suggestion will be (try to answer this one.....)

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before suicide bombings there were shootings, etc. When it was restricted to the minority of the palestenians (pre antifada I)..and when they used to work in mass in israel and there were very few checkpoints with only a simply glance at the palestenians...there were also very few nightime arrests.

they go hand in hand...what more "illegal"....arresting someone at night who might or might not know about future killings (or past) vs someone killing innocent people?

care to answer?

no information at all, is a human rights violation, a sign of a organized criminality of the highest order.
That jailing hundreds of children, without charge is a sign of the absence of any morality in the making of these policies.

That the torture of hundreds of thousands of Gazan children with sonic booms and destruction of their environment may not be the surest steps toward peace.

If they feel that way, they can go join Amnesty International.

Do appreciate your honesty, Pels. We got your point of view.

the problem with the pressure applied, be it torture or whatever you want to call it.....is that unfortunatly it works (when the israeli internal security does it), hence the dilemma.

can you answer?....its called the "ticking bomb"

a bomb is going to blow up soon and kill many innocent people, your kids as well, the man who knows its placement is infront of you and refuses to speak, you have the means to make him (pressure/torture/financial/family)

what will you do?..nothing and have 30-50 killed and maimed

or put on the pressure on one individual that is illegal....

what would you do?...and if you do nothing how will you explain that to those blinded, crippled, orphaned children that you could have prevented it, but didnt?

can you even anwer the question?

how many bombings have been stopped? Do any of the 300 Palestinian kids now being held hostage know of some "ticking bomb"? Or is that just the rationalization of a policy of madness?

Out of the tens of thousands of Israeli kidnaps and tortures (which i think includes most of the males in the OT at one time or another)... how many bombings have been inspired?
Why can't you Israel do anything but the continuation of more extreme violence?

Why is ending the occupation not the option? The complete dismantlement of the settlements (Olmert's plan is to increase most of them, and make this part of his permanent "solution". The release of prisoners/hostages. The opening of borders.
__________________________________________________________________________

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informationbrief.php?ID=160

More than 40,000 Palestinians have been arrested since the start of the September 2000 Al-Aqsa intifada. Currently 9,400 Palestinians remain jailed in 30 prisons throughout Israel.

i see this this a lot with quite a few of the regular posters who constantly criticize israel.....questions that involve moral dilemmas that many israelis in uniform and not in uniform face simply cant be answered here.


never could figure out why some people cant answer the questions.....too difficult? ...must be great for some to be able to live lives similar to the "white elite colonialst of the past.....telling everybody else how to act, but they themselves can even make some decisions.

sorry tom, your inability to answer the question while not surprising is rather sad......perhaps you can explain why you refuse to? If i would guess its becuase there are no simply right answers and your world appears to be one of black and white. Gray areas dont exist in "your world."


do you think Scurrilous will answer?...ignore or try to avoid it like you?

and your questions?....i'll be happy to answer....will you give me the same courtesy?

<snip>

"The ticking time bomb scenario is a thought experiment that has been used in the debate over whether torture could ever be justified in the war on terror. The German sociologist Niklas Luhmann mooted the ticking bomb scenario in the early 1990s.

The argument, simply stated, is that even nations, like the United States, that have taken a stand against torture, can justify the use of torture if they have a suspect in custody, who they feel sure possesses knowledge, like the location of a time bomb that would soon explode, which would cause great loss of innocent civilian life.

Alan Dershowitz, a prominent American defense attorney, surprised some observers by giving limited support to the idea that torture could be justified. His argument was that human nature can lead to unregulated torture and abuse "off the books." Therefore, it would be better if there was a regulated procedure through which an interrogator could request a "torture warrant." He argued that requiring a warrant would establish a paper trail of accountability. Torturers, and those who authorized torture, could be held to account, for excesses. Dershowitz's suggested torture warrants, similar to search warrants and phone tap warrants would spell out the limits on the techniques the interrogators could use, and the extent to which they could abridge suspect's rights.

Critics however, state that no such scenario has ever occurred and such a situation is highly unlikely. Any case resembling this thought experiment has been resolved without the necessity to torture. Furthermore, it is asked whether torture would be limited to suspects, or whether one could torture the family and friends of this detainee to make him compliant. According to John Yoo, this would be legally permissible. Another point is the notorious unreliability of the information gathered, i.e. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. The biggest objection is the notion innocent people could be subjected to torture as a result of this "the ends justifies the means" debate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticking_time_bomb_scenario

Another point is the notorious unreliability of the information gathered

given that the information that the israel security services gets is reliable, then perhaps what israel does is not "torture", though that is not my point... the question remains...and its hardly a "thought experiement"in israel...its reality.

hundreds of suicide bombers have been caught precisly because of the info taken from those in detention.

so if i am to understand you.....you prefer to preseve the civil rights of the few and let others get killed and maimed....did i get that right?...and please be clear about it with your opinon...try not to be "wishy washy"....as we shall apply your opinion to other situations and see if your consistent.

How we can overlook our own or our "allies" conduct, then wonder just why - gee, nobody seems to like us anymore.....

The Palestinians want to know who and how many children the age of 14 or under are in prisons.

The Israelis want the list to be limited to children 12 and younger, essentially admitting that there are children - even by their heartless definition - languishing in custody.

Meanwhile, they are holding children aged 13+ in adult prisons.

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The "settlers" in Gaza were given thousands of US $$$ to move or were moved by force by the Army. It would appear that the settlers were moved as a pretext to the current military action or collective punishment against all the inhabitants of Gaza.

This is flat out racism and genocide -- and the whole world must believe that Israel is acting with the permission and perhaps on the orders of the US. All we hear from ConLiar is please don't hurt anyone.

What American is doing and has done is bad enough -- but I really don't want the vicarious sins of the Israeli leadership blamed on me. I certainly do NOT support nor approve of this sort of behavior -- this is NOT defensive -- it is clearly offensive actions by a superior force.

It almost seems like the Israelis are bound and determined to beat their victims over the head until the surviving victims plead for mercy and ask to be released. How long will it be before we see a massive exodus of the people living in Gaza to which ever country is willing to take them in? Then these unwanted and displaced people will live in refugee camps -- to begin a cycle that has happened time after time throughout history.

It's collective punishment. It's wrong. It's illegal. It's causing great suffering, but it's not genocide, and I'm not even sure that it has much to do with racism.

Stop all aid to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, the PA, Hamas, etc.

By the way, annual U.S. aid to Israel (about $3billion) is only slightly higher than combined annual U.S. aid to Jordan, Egypt, and (before the Hamas election) the PA. (About $2.7 billion). Also annual U.S. aid to Israel, while significant, is still only about 2.5% of Israel's GNP. I suspect, even with all aid cut-off, Israel would still survive, and even thrive. (Hi-Tech in Israel is booming.)

But, I agree we should immediately cut off all aid to ALL parties in the Middle East. Lets see what happens.

for aid to Israel. Drop in the bucket compared to their total military spending.

ever. The only thing the US soldiers seemed to have learned well is torture and massacre.