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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-15-06 11:56 PM
Original message
UN rejects Lebanese call to intervene in conflict with Israel -
Edited on Sat Jul-15-06 11:56 PM by pelsar
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738922.html

We call to broaden the state's control over all of its territory, in cooperation with United Nations forces, in southern Lebanon."

Siniora also called on Lebanon to "work to recover all Lebanese territories and exercising full sovereignty of the state over those territories," Siniora said in a televised address to the nation.

His voice cracking with emotion, Siniora criticized Hezbollah without naming the group, saying Lebanon "cannot rise and get back on its feet if its government is the last to know."

"The government alone has the legitimate right to decide on matters of peace and war because it represents the will of the Lebanese people," he said.

and if the govt of Lebanon does actually take back its country from Hizballa, its probably safe to assume that many liberals and "leftist" will be glad to know the the residents of S.Lebanon can now live free....free from the tyranny of Hizballa and the constant threat of war over their heads....which has been the case for the last 6 years (not to mention the occasional attacks across the border into israel by hizballa).
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Say Hizballa goes away, where does it go?
You can bet that it isn't going to disappear.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Why don't they go to Syria?
That country backs them...or better yet...why not go to Iran?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Hezbolla enjoys considerable support from the Lebanese
to the point, the government said they were not powerful enough to disarm Hezbolla.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
52. Uh...no they don't! The Lebanese government wants their country back!
There is a difference between those in the political realm and the terrorists in the South. That is the problem with many of those groups over there...there is almost always the political branch, and the terrorist branch. Sometimes, depending on the group, the two are closely related, other times, not so much.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. They'll go right into Gaza , go underground and really fuck them over.
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 12:19 AM by The_Casual_Observer
This thing isn't post WWII linear. They are serious.

Anyway, I'll bet you didn't ever think past what happens next after the get expelled from Lebanon. That's the trouble with you guys, you think like this is some kind of war with surrender papers & shit.
This is many generational. They have no intention of ever stopping. Short of calling for an all out genocide, Israel can't solve this problem with the means at hand. Hez probably has an endless supply of behind the scenes Saudi money and UAE encouragement to rival anything the US is willing to throw at it.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
53. I don't think so.
See, you think they actually care about the Palestinians...you'd be wrong. The trouble with you guys is you want to make everything so "black and white" and fail to understand the complexity of what is really happening in that part of the world.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. dont care...
they can increase their membership or decrease it..as long as they no longer have the means to be a state within a state, terrorize the local population as well as a neighboring country....inwhich case syria and iran might lose interest in them....
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. You might think you don't care, but they are like a wart, they
always come back.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Twenty three percent of elected parliament was Hezbolla
Lebanon is a democracy.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. not in s.lebanon..
so what would you call that?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. The Lebanese government is democratic and 23%
of the elected parliament is Hezbolla.

The blue states here don't like being controlled by red state Congress.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Hezbollah Is More The Red States, Ma'am
It is sprung from a rural area that feels shut out and looked down on by urban elites who are much more cosmopolitan in outlook....
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Sounds like the red states to me?
Regardless, an elected parliament is just that.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. gotta luv the analogies...
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 12:21 AM by pelsar
so hizballa is now being compared to the "blue states" (any blue states attack canada recently?...or better yet...how many katushas does Vermont have?)
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. No, but I'm entertained by your thought linkage n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Any blue states had the hell bombed out of them recently?
These people know desperation you never will.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. blue states have had their freedom stolen
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 12:35 AM by Erika
And their rights taken away by a 23% group. I don't see any Americans fighting that.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Hizballa...
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 12:37 AM by pelsar
is hardly living the lives of "desperation"....they are well fed living in nice villages in S. Lebanon and in Beruit....and terrorize the people of S.Lebanon and attack israel occasionally....i get the impression that you support them....if so then simply say it.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. And they are 23% of duly elected parliamentarians n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. so your support their terrorizm of S. lebanon?
if so, dont be shy..
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Israel is coming to liberate a country from it's elected
democracy? OK. Stay tuned.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. no...israel is protecting its citizens...
in the process the lebanese get rid of violent armed group that has taken control of part of its country as well as its foreign policy, funded by other countries...which you seem to support.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Israel is now going to run Lebanon and tell it what is good for them?
Imperialism 101.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. lebanese will run lebanon
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 01:05 AM by pelsar
but then i get the impression that having s. lebanon run by a terror group, funded by syria and iran is perfectly ok by you (those are foreign countries) ...having israel get rid of them is a "bad thing"

assuming they dont attack israel again
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Huh?
If you like the thought that the Israelis bombed the hell out of Beirut and killed dozens of innocents, that's your thing.

I just hate having our tax dollars paying for that ravaging.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Free Lebanon for the Lebanese
thats what i prefer..without the addition of missles and attacks upon israel...thats my thing.

letting terrorist groups terrorize the local population and starting wars...seems to be yours
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Israel is going to free Lebanon?
How cutesie.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #40
55. No, Israel is going to survive.
Why are you against that?
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Laotra Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
57. In South Lebanon
in the last election shia parties Hezbollah and Amal won all the seats, increasing their share from 10 (IIRC) to the current 27. Hezbollah is part of the governement with two ministers.
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Yup...
One more reason why forcing democracy in the Middle East is not necessarily a good idea. It can backfire pretty badly.
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
9. Hezbollah gets more funding...
from Iran and Syria than the entire country of Lebannon gets in revenue. Explain to me how the hell the government is supposed to stop them? Lebannon can't even afford helmets for their own army.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. precisly the point...
they couldnt enter S.Lebanon with Hizballa there in full force....with a weakened hizballa, and a country that has little choice, he might, as he is talking now, be willing to take the chance.

(thats a good thing btw)
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. And bombing suburbs is weakening Hezbollah how? nt
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. perhaps you should ask the PM of lebanon?
since he is the one who is now talking about taking back S. Lebanon from the Hizballa....something he didnt do before.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
44. And Northern Iraq was never under the control of Hussein
so your message means what?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Israel demanding the Lebanese government disarm Hezbolla
is a farce. They know the elected government doesn't have that power.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. israel hasnt demanded it...
israel is actually doing it...and its the Lebanese PM who has now mentioned it "time to take control of the south" didnt you read the article?

or is he a puppet of israel?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Israel is destroying Lebanese infrastructure
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 12:33 AM by Erika
If that's what they call disarming Hezbolla, that's interesting. Destroying the country and killing innocents is now called disarming Hezbolla?

W is now calling for Syria to disarm Hezbolla. Twenty three percent of an elected democratic parliament is now to be tossed out by a foreign government?

Too bad, we no longer have any statesmen and world leaders.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. so I understand you support hizballa?
and their control of S. lebanon and the way they treat the lebanese living there?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. No, I suggest it's their problem to solve
Don't forget they have a duly elected democracy.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. and attacking israel?
thats not an israeli problem? ...or if they are the govt...they declared war
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. The lebanese government did not declare war.
Beirut was prosperous. Israel has done away with that. Wait until more Israeli towns are hit. I heard a right wing talk show host talking about getting a cruise to Tiberias. Yeah, sure.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. 23% of the lebanese govt declared war...
and since israel has only destroyed limited parts of lebanon (probably less than 23%) you should probably agree with what israel is doing...actually most of the damage is limited to Hizballa areas....the part of the lebanese that declared war
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. What the Israelis have done to Beirut is shameful
A complete lack of respect for a cultural center.

Defend the destruction all you want. It doesn't change the facts or the guilty party.
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. that is what I am wondering
I fully understand Israel's anger and support striking Hezbollah, but...what the fuck can Lebanon do against them? From what I have read, the gov. is weaker than Hezbollah.I really beleive their government would disarm Hizbollah if they had the power. Unfortunately no other nation will help them do this. They won't ask Israel for help because they are Jews. No other Arab nation will help them because they don't want to inflame the situation in their own nations. Hezbollah wins by default.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. hizballa is losing..
there are two parts to the news....Some parts of Lebanons infrastruture being destroyed (airport runways, not the tower, bridges, not the communication centers or electricity) as well as the command and control centers of Hizballa in Beirut. In S. lebanon the military structure of Hizballa has been wiped out as well as along the Syrian border. So Hizballa has been weakened as well..and with israel watching their backs the lebanese army can very well enter S. Lebanon.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. to overthow 23% of a democratically elected government?
Civil war.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. which part of the lebanese govt attacked israel?
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 12:58 AM by pelsar
and which part has now launched over 760 missiles at israeli cities and towns? you cant have it both ways: either Hizballa is part of the govt in which case the govt attacked israel..or its an outlaw organization that has "hijacked" parts of lebanon in which case it was not "lebanon which attacked israel"

its either one or the other.....
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. The Lebanese government did not attack Israel
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 01:01 AM by Erika
But Israel sure destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. but you wrote that hizballa is part of the govt?
23% ....so 23% of the lebanese govt attacked israel?....this is very confusing....perhaps you can explain how a "party" that is part of the govt can attack a country and not be responsable for it?

are they part of the govt or not?...and if they are arent responsable for their actions why are they in the govt?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. The government did not attack Israel
The officials stated so. Israel is the one who demanded the government disarm Hezbolla. The government said they could not. Now W is saying Syria should demand Hezbolla be disarmed.

Hezbolla was duly elected to 23% of the seats by the Lebanese.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. Hizballa attacked israel....so are they part of the govt or not?
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 01:14 AM by pelsar
your being very confusing....Hizballa attacked....Hizballa is part of the govt.... so that means the lebanese govt "agreed" to attack israel at least 23% did.

or if the lebanese govt didnt attack israel..who did? (Hizballas was very proud of their attack btw)...

you seem to have a contradiction here: either hizballa is part of the govt, and represent the govt and they're very proud of their attack or they are an organziation that has partially hijackd part of lebanon.....cant have it both ways....
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. I repeat, the Lebanon govt did not attack. They said so.
Why Israel holds them responsible is only convenient to Israel. If they think they are making Lebanese friends by destroying the inrastructure, they are in error.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. so explain...
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 01:23 AM by pelsar
not so difficult:
you claim hizballa is part of the govt
hizballa claims they attacked
the lebanese govt says they didnt.

_________

it seems to me that makes hizballa an "outlaw group"...you seem to say they're not, they represent the govt...so simple logic:

if they represent the govt....and they attacked.....that means the govt (or 23%) attacked. Which part of the logic is wrong?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. All of it The govt did not attack
How hard is that for you to understand, respectfully?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. i do understand..
Edited on Sun Jul-16-06 02:19 AM by pelsar
its you who is claiming that whereas the govt didnt attack, hizballa is part of the govt (a legit part) and hizballa attacked.....(but when they attack they are all of a sudden "not part of the govt)

so who is responsable for hizballa?.....if they attack can they be attacked back?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
56. Let's take this slowly
First, are Hizbullah part of the government or not?
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-16-06 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
58. Locking
Thread has ceased being productive and is now revolving on personalities.

Lithos
DU Moderator
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