No Palestinians, No Palestine, No Problem

<snip>

"If the internet is any measure, there are four major denominations of Diaspora Jewry: Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and There Is No Such Thing as a Palestinian.

You won't find this last group on synagogue signs. It has no rabbinical seminary. It lacks a headquarters in Manhattan, or a place on the Conference of Presidents. But if single-minded zeal counts for anything, its place as a denomination is assured.

Its bedrock article of faith is this: The concept of a Palestinian people is artificial, a grand lie foisted on a gullible and guilt-plagued international community.

The seductiveness of this lies in its simplicity. Remove the Palestinians from the equation, and the equation is solved. No more guilt. No more dilemmas. No land to divide. No rights to share. No Middle East conflict.

No Palestinians, no Palestine. No problem."

more

I'm going off to take cover now...

the few who bring up the "palestenians dont exist today" argument are actually few and far in between.....(i think they're are more who believe the jews living in israel arent really related to the jews who were kicked out by the romans......)

however its the same argument: to delegitimize a peoples/person self identity------cant do it. (the mixture of fantasy/history for that identity is always mixed)

You mean Bar Kokhba?

In the First Century CE, the Romans crushed the independent kingdom of Judea. After the failed rebellion of Bar Kokhba in the Second Century CE the Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina.

The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived still alive and free left the devastated country

my time spent on other sites was a real "eye opener' in terms of the many theories that claim:

they're arent any jews
the real jews came from russia
no relation to the jews of the roman period
there is no history to israel,
etc etc etc

its the same argument that claims the palestenains dont exist: for that there are two points:
one its irrelevant now since many claim that identity and have a history/myths to back it up
two....you cant delegitimize an identity

gave a pretty good account of themselves, but were stomped flat in the end. The Romans (Hadrian really) plowed Jerusalem with teams of oxen and tried to stomp out Jewishness. An early case of anti-semitism, if you like. The reaction after the revolt in 70CE was less extreme. That intolerance was somewhat of a change, since before Christianity came along Roman culture was generally very tolerant about religion. Some historians date the Jewish disapora from the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba war. Some say it starts back with the Babylonians and Egyptians.

I was just questioning the notion that the Jews back then kicked out the Romans. It seemed to be the other way around. I wasn't questioning their existence or anything like that. I don't know anyone sane who questions that Jews exist or existed then (although given some of the drivel one may read in certain sites and books, I don't doubt that such claims are made).

i'm pretty weak on that part of the history......just the usual: sucide at massada rather than fall in to romans hands...and losing the war. Kochba is one of those historical heros that mix myth + history to help with the "culture/history identity.

as far as the claims in the jews.....i just found it to be fascinating, but not surprising

One can see why it is commemorated.
It just wasn't a successful one.

there must be some dilution of the original genetic makeup of the Jewish people who were kicked out of Israel by the Romans all those years ago. This is impossible to prove has there are not real genetic data on the Jewish people at that time. But if you look at the fact that for well over a 1000 years the Jewish people had no country and were refugees and were scattered all around the globe for that time you must of had some genetic mixing with the indigenous population where each group settled. This would vary from individual to individual, but it would be an interesting study to see the results if say 10,000 Jewish people had their genetic code mapped to see if there were any differences between them. I know that you get genetic variations in countries that are made up of lots of different ethnic groups, but with the Jewish population living in Israel and around the world are all from the same ethnic group. You would have to have equal spread of numbers of lets say for example Russian, American, European Jews who now live in Israel. You might have to go back one or two generations to get to the area of the globe they moved from to Israel.

There was a program on the TV about a month ago where it mapped the genetic code of I think it was five people who claimed to be 100% British. Not one of them came out, and they could show what each person genetic code was made up of. They divided it up into area's around the globe - Middle East, Europe, Asia, South America,,,,,,,, and so on. It just showed how mixed up are DNA is and the fact that there is no real true ethnic groups genetically speaking. People will probably say that this is anti Semitic, but it would have scientific relevance. The Jewish people was the longest running refugee population in the world (well over a thousand years) and to map the genetic code of a large proportion of that population to see the genetic variance would be interesting scientifically. This would be also interesting to do on other other countries and ethnic groups to build up a global picture of the human genetic code. What difference genetically speaking is there between Arabs and Jews, Russians and Europeans,,,,, We are probably more similar than different to each other - "one species, one people and one DNA with vary small differences".

I remember reading about one that indicated that Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis/Palestinians were genetically more similar than other groups in the Middle East.

I'll see if I can come across that as I'd like to read it again. Faint memory and all.

Went over like a lead balloon, too.

I was looking for the study referenced in my previous post. I haven't found it yet, but I did run across this Guardian UK piece published in 2001. Thought you'd might be interested.

Snippet follows:


Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians


Robin McKie, science editor
Sunday November 25, 2001
The Observer


A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.
Academics who have already received copies of Human Immunology have been urged to rip out the offending pages and throw them away.

Such a drastic act of self-censorship is unprecedented in research publishing and has created widespread disquiet, generating fears that it may involve the suppression of scientific work that questions Biblical dogma.

<snip>

it would not surprise me if the genes of the palestenains and jews are similar...who would be against the study? and those facts if true?

But your link is broke.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html

There seemed to be a stray www in the link in the other post...

I don't think it's the same story I read, but it's the same study. I never saw the study itself, and I just remember a big dust-up over it. It's possible I posted something here about it, but I can't swear to it, and I'm much too lazy to go back and search.

This story at your link makes the reasons for the objections to it slightly more clear.

... but it does have a familiar ring to it as well.

Apparantly, the author of the study used some inflammatory statements but not sure how that negates the study regarding genetic relationship between Palestinians and Jews. :shrug:

Anyway, here's a link to the study (I haven't read it yet so I can't say that this was the one that I read a few years ago but like bemildred said, the timing is about right).

The Origin of Palestinians and their Genetic Relatedness with other Mediterranean Populations'

Here's the link (still haven't found the study I was referring to in my post):

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html

JOURNAL PULLS PAPER
A paper examining the genetic origin of Palestinians and other Mediterranean populations led to an unusual action from Human Immunology, the journal that originally published the paper, and a great deal of controversy concerning both the paper and the actions of the journal.

The published study analyzed the genetic variability in the HLA complex of immune genes among Palestinians and other populations, concluding that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations. In September 2001, the paper was published in a special issue of Human Immunology devoted to comparative population genetics under the supervision of guest editor Antonio Arnaiz-Villena of the Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology at the University of Computense of Madrid, Spain. Shortly thereafter, under a barrage of complaints and the threat of mass resignations from the American Society for Histocompatability and Immunogenics (ASHI), which publishes the journal, editor-in-chief Nicole Sucio-Foca had all electronic versions of the article removed and a letter was sent by the publishing company to subscribers and librarians asking them to ignore the article “or, preferably, to physically remove the relevant pages.”

The controversy arose over the content of the introduction, which included a summarized history of occupation in the region Israel and Palestine. This introduction included references to Jews living in the Gaza strip as “colonists” and Palestinians as living in “concentration camps.” The decision of the editorial board to expunge the paper completely was based on the political bias of the paper, citing it as “inappropriate use of a scientific journal for a political agenda.” In a letter to ASHI members on October 3, 2001, president at the time, Dolly Tyan, wrote that the society is “offended and embarrassed.”

Arnaiz-Villena, also lead author of the paper, asserted that the paper underwent the proper peerreview process and was approved by two reviewers. However, Sucio-Foca claims the article did not go through peer-review. In response to this incident, the editorial board has revised its policy to allow the editor-in-chief to supervise all future work by guest editors. Arnaiz-Villena has said that he was shocked by the unexpected removal of his paper, and that he never intended to offend anyone.

The editors of Human Immunology have invited Arnaiz-Villena to resubmit a new version of the paper, and are now considering the revised version for publication. *PM

http://www.aaas.org/spp/sfrl/per/per28.htm

the few who bring up the "palestenians dont exist today" argument are actually few and far in between..

So when did this change? Five seconds ago? Because a quick trot round the internet or even delving into the archives of this forum show that they're not few and far between at all. There have been many attempts on this forum in the past by some no longer with us to try to argue that the Palestinians (sometimes they're referred to as "" or "Pals" by the There Is No Such Thing as a Palestinian brigade. And that's just this forum, which has some protection against that brigade, what with DU being a left-wing place where the denial of the existence of groups of people is something not looked kindly on no matter which group of people it is...

on edit: fixed up crappy typo in title...

hide. It's the truth
<snip>


No one should know this better than the Jews. No people on earth has been negated, delegitimized, in so many ways, for so many centuries, by so many other peoples, as we have.

When the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his boss, Yasser Arafat, declared that the Jews have no verifiable ties to the holy city, it may have been their jobs that they were doing, but it was none of their business.

Just as it is none of our business to tell Palestinians who they are and who they are not.

The Middle East conflict will not be solved by a parlor trick. Any magician can tell you. You can't make someone disappear simply by shutting your own eyes.
_________________________

<snip>

easy to disprove- particularly in week where Rabbis for Human Rights, a group that has placed particular emphasis on the oppression of the Palestinians, is meeting in NY. Not to mention the thread here in I/P about Michael Lerner's defense of Carter's book. I suggest you read the Lerner thread, and google Rabbis for Human Rights.

What does Rabbis for Human Rights and Tikkun have to do with what Bradley Burston wrote in his article? He most definately wasn't including them in the There Is No Such Thing as a Palestinian group....

Nowhere in your post do you attempt to refute the article.

:shrug:

It's a good article and I can't see anything in there that would cause it to be labelled bullshit....

There's no other explanation I can think of...

http://www.mcc.org/gallery/04_09/photo_09.html

now who is saying this isn't apartheid.... is is definitely 'apart'

your post have to do with my comment responding to the article, and pointing out (with clear evidence) how that article is fallacious?